So the past couple of weeks I've been playing a list without bolts as well as testing out Torch of Defiance, and I must say that I miss the bolts. Quite often I've needed the bolts to finish off the game or a problematic planeswalker which would have won me the game. As for Chandra, she's been invaluable in grindfests but I side her out half the time (when I play against aggro or big mana). I'm thinking of going back to 3 bolts at least, shaving off 1 push and ToD. Main deck space is so precious.
What I'm saying is, I want to close out games faster because you don't get much time in modern to durdle and the old jund lists with 4x bolts do that exceedingly well. Perhaps running 3x bolt and 3x push with hazoret (or glorybringer- but I'm not convinced) like the 5-0 list the other day is a viable way to go.
I'll be testing hazoret over huntmaster for a bit. At least hazoret blocks smasher and tasigur profitably, which would in theory improve our matchups against eldrazi and grixis
If you find room for 3/3 split of Bolt/Push, why not. I am pro cutting Chandra, never liked her, may it be pre or post bans.
How often did you get Hazoret to be active? I am curious, generally, this would syngerize a bit with LotV.
Have we dropped Lightning Bolt completely from the deck, and if so why?
You can either play the full 4 push instead of bolt, or make some split arrangements. But I would recommend at least playing 3 Pushes and max 2-3 bolts in addition.
I would not go below 3 terminate. I don't like cutting down on them to add pushes. You want removal for push-proof creatures more like ever, so I am not a fan. I run the following removal base:
I could not imagine cutting Lightning Bolt. So far the current distribution of removal feels right.
Also - Chandra, Torch of Defiance has been an allstar. I never cut that card in any matchup.
The + on Chandra is amazing. Plus it acts as an extra removal spell if absolutely needed.
Again, i've cut Fulminator Mage completely. He's not doing much for me lately.
I don't know if I agree... without fumigator mage we can't steal games away from big mana decks.
Even with the mage, those big mana decks seems prety much a dead match up.. LD plus surgical the tower or a valakut on paper it's great, but it's extremely hard to pull off...against other decks he does not seem great enough..I'm inclined to go with a couple Blood Moons..but not sure yet.
I would not go below 3 terminate. I don't like cutting down on them to add pushes. You want removal for push-proof creatures more like ever, so I am not a fan. I run the following removal base:
So the past couple of weeks I've been playing a list without bolts as well as testing out Torch of Defiance, and I must say that I miss the bolts. Quite often I've needed the bolts to finish off the game or a problematic planeswalker which would have won me the game. As for Chandra, she's been invaluable in grindfests but I side her out half the time (when I play against aggro or big mana). I'm thinking of going back to 3 bolts at least, shaving off 1 push and ToD. Main deck space is so precious.
What I'm saying is, I want to close out games faster because you don't get much time in modern to durdle and the old jund lists with 4x bolts do that exceedingly well. Perhaps running 3x bolt and 3x push with hazoret (or glorybringer- but I'm not convinced) like the 5-0 list the other day is a viable way to go.
I'll be testing hazoret over huntmaster for a bit. At least hazoret blocks smasher and tasigur profitably, which would in theory improve our matchups against eldrazi and grixis
If you find room for 3/3 split of Bolt/Push, why not. I am pro cutting Chandra, never liked her, may it be pre or post bans.
How often did you get Hazoret to be active? I am curious, generally, this would syngerize a bit with LotV.
I just tested 2x Mainboard Hazorets tonight, and it feels very average. Maybe because I'm not building the rest of the deck around it - I just took the stock list and swapped out 2 Huntmasters and 4 bolts for 4 pushes.
The haste was very useful in killing from nowhere, but I had it pathed twice. There was also an occasion when I drew it early and my hand had a Kommand, Decay and Pulse and I couldn't activate Hazoret until 2 turns later because there was no way to play out my hand. I feel that if Hazoret is played, the higher-end spells like Kommand, Pulse etc should be reduced/swapped out in favour of more discard and bolts to get him online earlier (especially bolts since the premise of playing Hazoret in the first place is to close faster). Late game topdecks of discard with a Hazoret around turn into Shocks, which isn't so bad.
I'll try a list with bolts and see how the god performs in a more aggressive shell.
I would not go below 3 terminate. I don't like cutting down on them to add pushes. You want removal for push-proof creatures more like ever, so I am not a fan. I run the following removal base:
I don't like cutting Lightning Bolt
Lightning Bolt is one of those cards that become worse the fewer you play IMO.
How does it become worse?
In our bad match-ups where lightning bolt is bad... so is fatal push
Against these decks (Eldrazi Tron, Bant Eldrazi, etc.) I would much rather have x4 bolts then x4 push.
Drawing multiple bolts is good because it allows us to kill bigger threats (while drawing only one bolt is pretty mediocre).
Bolt is also pretty sweet with Chandra. Allows you to kill pretty much any creature in the format for 5 mana.
Umm no. How is Lightning Bolt better than Fatal Push against ANY Death's Shadow decks? Remember, we're not just concerned with what you're facing at FNM. Literally the most popular deck online and on paper right now is Death's Shadow Jund. It's also better against midrange Abzan, Affinity and Merfolk (just to pull from current top decks). Fatal Push also requires a lot less help (revolt) to kill a Thought-Knot Seer than a Lightning Bolt. So I'm failing to understand how you see Bolt as better? We're not a Burn deck. Dealing three damage to a planeswalker or player that does not kill it means the card was essentially worthless anyway.
You still didn't explain how playing less Lightning Bolts makes the card worse in your deck.
Umm no. How is Lightning Bolt better than Fatal Push against ANY Death's Shadow decks? Remember, we're not just concerned with what you're facing at FNM. Literally the most popular deck online and on paper right now is Death's Shadow Jund. It's also better against midrange Abzan, Affinity and Merfolk (just to pull from current top decks). Fatal Push also requires a lot less help (revolt) to kill a Thought-Knot Seer than a Lightning Bolt. So I'm failing to understand how you see Bolt as better? We're not a Burn deck. Dealing three damage to a planeswalker or player that does not kill it means the card was essentially worthless anyway.
I edited the above post. I was referencing our bad match-ups by my comment.
Even without x4 fatal push Suicide decks should be in our favor. So I wasn't even focusing on that matchup. We don't need x4 push to win.
Since you mentioned "local meta" let's look at the top 4 decks currently: Affinity (9%), Eldrazi Tron (7.26%), Storm (5.94%), and Suicide (5.94%).
Against Affinity fatal push and lightning bolt are basically the same exact card (also true vs Merfolk). Yes you can argue that fatal push gets around ravager shenanigans, but that is literally the only argument. And even taking that into account... it's not that big of a difference. Playing fatal push over bolt in this match up won't improve anything by more than 1%, if that.
As previously mentioned, bolt is superior against Eldrazi Tron. It is far less likely to be a dead card.
It can be paired with a blocker and/or other burn spells to take down bigger threats. Or aimed at the face if we are ahead.
Yes fatal push can kill Thought-Knot Seer. But so can terminate.... and terminate can kill whole lot more. You keep in fatal pushes in this match-up due to TKS... but it is far from ideal.
Storm - well having a faster clock is ALWAYS a bonus... and since they play few creatures (or creatures that just die to bolt) bolt is the superior choice.
The only deck in the list where bolt falls short is against Suicide. In this matchup I agree - I'd rather have x4 pushes and no bolts.
Bolt do nothing against this deck unless your opponent is not very smart. It kills nothing... does not really help you race... etc.
If you suspect you will only play against Suicide... then yea. Cut bolts.
But we're not "just concerned with what you're facing at FNM" So cutting bolts because of one matchup seems questionable.
In every other match-up bolt is either the same as fatal push (statistically)... or better.
EDIT: Though I understand why people feel like Eldrazi Tron is an abysmal match-up now... with no bolts and fewer terminates, I don't see how you win.
My issue is that you think you 2-for-1'ing yourself is alright. It's freaking terrible if you understand what you're trying to do with Jund. Yet, because I "can block and chuck a Bolt at something" is somehow a good idea in your mind, you keep coming back with this. Why not just double block instead? I can keep coming up with random scenarios that can work. The point is that we should be cutting as many weak cards as possible. You say it's just one matchup, but I mentioned Merfolk specifically because if they're on the play, the lords can get out of control quickly with Cursecatcher mixed in. Not to mention, Fatal Push can deal with Master of the Waves efficiently. Otherwise, you're prayying for a main deck Maelstrom Pulse. I also mentioned Abzan (or GBx decks in general) because Bolts generally suck here. I mean how often do we play a Tarmogoyf into an opponent's Lightning Bolt knowing that our Goyf will live? Try doing that against Fatal Push. Also, I love you how dismissed Affinity. While we're generally favored in the match overall, Fatal Push can kill anything in their deck at any point (except Etched Champion generally). Lightning Bolt can fall off if you fall behind at any point. Against Storm, neither of them really matter without Tarmogoyf or Scavenging Ooze on the board.
I mean if you just want to dismiss stuff out of hand, fine. I just seriously doubt you have any experience with any of this. You're ignoring the mountain of evidence and conclusions that not only we have arrived at but pros (and anyone crushing with Jund) as well.
My issue is that you think you 2-for-1'ing yourself is alright. It's freaking terrible if you understand what you're trying to do with Jund. Yet, because I "can block and chuck a Bolt at something" is somehow a good idea in your mind, you keep coming back with this. Why not just double block instead? I can keep coming up with random scenarios that can work. The point is that we should be cutting as many weak cards as possible. You say it's just one matchup, but I mentioned Merfolk specifically because if they're on the play, the lords can get out of control quickly with Cursecatcher mixed in. Not to mention, Fatal Push can deal with Master of the Waves efficiently. Otherwise, you're prayying for a main deck Maelstrom Pulse. I also mentioned Abzan (or GBx decks in general) because Bolts generally suck here. I mean how often do we play a Tarmogoyf into an opponent's Lightning Bolt knowing that our Goyf will live? Try doing that against Fatal Push. Also, I love you how dismissed Affinity. While we're generally favored in the match overall, Fatal Push can kill anything in their deck at any point (except Etched Champion generally). Lightning Bolt can fall off if you fall behind at any point. Against Storm, neither of them really matter without Tarmogoyf or Scavenging Ooze on the board.
I mean if you just want to dismiss stuff out of hand, fine. I just seriously doubt you have any experience with any of this. You're ignoring the mountain of evidence and conclusions that not only we have arrived at but pros (and anyone crushing with Jund) as well.
2 for ing yourself is better then having a card that doesn't do anything.
You said cut your weakest card. A card that is a 1 for 2 is better then a card you can't even use.
EDIT: You just made the assumption that the pros came to the same conlcusion? Um...
The last good showings a "pro" has had with the deck played x4 bolts.
but sure I am avoiding the mountain of evidence you are correct 0_o.
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Not entirely, but most of us have definitely found room for Fatal Push largely at the expense of Lightning Bolt.
If you find room for 3/3 split of Bolt/Push, why not. I am pro cutting Chandra, never liked her, may it be pre or post bans.
How often did you get Hazoret to be active? I am curious, generally, this would syngerize a bit with LotV.
You can either play the full 4 push instead of bolt, or make some split arrangements. But I would recommend at least playing 3 Pushes and max 2-3 bolts in addition.
I would not go below 3 terminate. I don't like cutting down on them to add pushes. You want removal for push-proof creatures more like ever, so I am not a fan. I run the following removal base:
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Terminate
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Maelstrom Pulse
Lightning Bolt is one of those cards that become worse the fewer you play IMO.
My current list has not changed from the last few weeks (no reason to).
Went 3-1 last night at Thursday Night Modern.
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
Spells
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Fatal Push
2 Kolaghan's Command
3 Terminate
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Blood Crypt
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Twilight Mire
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Wooded Foothills
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
4 Raging Ravine
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Ancient Grudge
2 damnation
2 Feed the Clan
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Obstinate Baloth
1 Painful Truths
1 collective brutality
I could not imagine cutting Lightning Bolt. So far the current distribution of removal feels right.
Also - Chandra, Torch of Defiance has been an allstar. I never cut that card in any matchup.
The + on Chandra is amazing. Plus it acts as an extra removal spell if absolutely needed.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
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UR Twin - RIP
I don't know if I agree... without fumigator mage we can't steal games away from big mana decks.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
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Vintage: NA
Even with the mage, those big mana decks seems prety much a dead match up.. LD plus surgical the tower or a valakut on paper it's great, but it's extremely hard to pull off...against other decks he does not seem great enough..I'm inclined to go with a couple Blood Moons..but not sure yet.
UR Twin - RIP
Terminate if overrated. It's nice but Fatal Push takes care of the majority of problem creatures. We don't necessarily need three of them any more.
How does it become worse?
I just tested 2x Mainboard Hazorets tonight, and it feels very average. Maybe because I'm not building the rest of the deck around it - I just took the stock list and swapped out 2 Huntmasters and 4 bolts for 4 pushes.
The haste was very useful in killing from nowhere, but I had it pathed twice. There was also an occasion when I drew it early and my hand had a Kommand, Decay and Pulse and I couldn't activate Hazoret until 2 turns later because there was no way to play out my hand. I feel that if Hazoret is played, the higher-end spells like Kommand, Pulse etc should be reduced/swapped out in favour of more discard and bolts to get him online earlier (especially bolts since the premise of playing Hazoret in the first place is to close faster). Late game topdecks of discard with a Hazoret around turn into Shocks, which isn't so bad.
I'll try a list with bolts and see how the god performs in a more aggressive shell.
In our bad match-ups where lightning bolt is bad... so is fatal push
Against these decks (Eldrazi Tron, Bant Eldrazi, etc.) I would much rather have x4 bolts then x4 push.
Drawing multiple bolts is good because it allows us to kill bigger threats (while drawing only one bolt is pretty mediocre).
Bolt is also pretty sweet with Chandra. Allows you to kill pretty much any creature in the format for 5 mana.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
You still didn't explain how playing less Lightning Bolts makes the card worse in your deck.
I edited the above post. I was referencing our bad match-ups by my comment.
Even without x4 fatal push Suicide decks should be in our favor. So I wasn't even focusing on that matchup. We don't need x4 push to win.
Since you mentioned "local meta" let's look at the top 4 decks currently: Affinity (9%), Eldrazi Tron (7.26%), Storm (5.94%), and Suicide (5.94%).
Against Affinity fatal push and lightning bolt are basically the same exact card (also true vs Merfolk). Yes you can argue that fatal push gets around ravager shenanigans, but that is literally the only argument. And even taking that into account... it's not that big of a difference. Playing fatal push over bolt in this match up won't improve anything by more than 1%, if that.
As previously mentioned, bolt is superior against Eldrazi Tron. It is far less likely to be a dead card.
It can be paired with a blocker and/or other burn spells to take down bigger threats. Or aimed at the face if we are ahead.
Yes fatal push can kill Thought-Knot Seer. But so can terminate.... and terminate can kill whole lot more. You keep in fatal pushes in this match-up due to TKS... but it is far from ideal.
Storm - well having a faster clock is ALWAYS a bonus... and since they play few creatures (or creatures that just die to bolt) bolt is the superior choice.
The only deck in the list where bolt falls short is against Suicide. In this matchup I agree - I'd rather have x4 pushes and no bolts.
Bolt do nothing against this deck unless your opponent is not very smart. It kills nothing... does not really help you race... etc.
If you suspect you will only play against Suicide... then yea. Cut bolts.
But we're not "just concerned with what you're facing at FNM" So cutting bolts because of one matchup seems questionable.
In every other match-up bolt is either the same as fatal push (statistically)... or better.
EDIT: Though I understand why people feel like Eldrazi Tron is an abysmal match-up now... with no bolts and fewer terminates, I don't see how you win.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
I mean if you just want to dismiss stuff out of hand, fine. I just seriously doubt you have any experience with any of this. You're ignoring the mountain of evidence and conclusions that not only we have arrived at but pros (and anyone crushing with Jund) as well.
2 for ing yourself is better then having a card that doesn't do anything.
You said cut your weakest card. A card that is a 1 for 2 is better then a card you can't even use.
EDIT: You just made the assumption that the pros came to the same conlcusion? Um...
The last good showings a "pro" has had with the deck played x4 bolts.
but sure I am avoiding the mountain of evidence you are correct 0_o.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
One guy? Try 2-3.
Additionally alot of the people who are playing x4 fatal push are not pros.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA