It's massively counter intuitive for Blue Moon to run Field of Ruin and I've never seen Blue Moon run Seas either - seems pointless considering Moon does its effect better.
I know that. It doesn't change what I've seen in competitive leagues, and it wasn't just once or twice.
Sigh, then run the mountain, obviously people have different fears.
Seeing one corner case where someone drew four copies of FoR isn't enough for me but everyone has different experiences and theories.
Field of Ruin is seeing far more play than Blood Moon right now across several different kinds of decks. I don't understand the point of running a second forest over the first mountain largely because the only double green spell anyone is playing is Kitchen Finks. So again, why go that route? You really haven't provided much an explanation for why you want the 2nd forest over the first mountain that makes sense even under a Blood Moon that you fear so much.
Running two forests doubles the chance of you drawing one naturally, AND a lot of the blood moon decks also run stone rain and/or molten rain. So if on turn 2 you fetch a forest to play out a goyf and they untap and stone rain your forest, you better hope they don't have a follow up bloodmoon.
Another reason is that green is more important now than it was pre-BBE is because BBE is very good against Blood Moon decks. It's very good against ponza, and very good against blue moon. And skred red decks too.
Unless you're running more discard, specifically Thoughtseize, those decks are going to hurt you regardless of whether you're running one or two forests. Even then, Ponza runs acceleration and Bloodbraid Elf themselves on top of a myriad of spells that hurt us. Blue Moon is likely going to play Spreading Seas or Field of Ruin alongside Blood Moon. They're just bad for our health. I don't see why the second forest matters that much in any of these corner cases. If they pop up, you're likely to lose anyway. I would just like to play magic through Field of Ruins, which is in almost every 2-color deck and even Jeskai and Esper control lists.
In my experience, both ponza and blue moon are good matchups for Jund as long as your opening hand doesn't lose to a blood moon. Especially now with BBE legal.
I’ve been running 5 basic lands with a single FoR, and have liked my manabase.
I'm not certain about the FoR in a deck that is so color intensive, especially since the return of BBE anf Bolt, but I'm starting to like the idea of running 5 basic lands and 25 lands overall for the first game, and simply siding out the Moutain or the second Forest, depending on the matchup.
But is that enough is the question? If you face 2 Hollow Ones turn 2?
Hollow One is a tough one to answer in game 1. Not Jund specifically, but in a lot of BG/x decks I've taken to playing multiple Slaughter Pacts. In Jund we also have Ancient Grudge, which gets around the Burning Inquiries. Maybe the answer is to include cards we can pitch when they're bad, but are powerful answers when they're good and lean heavier on Brutality/Liliana as card filters? That would basically mean playing Rakdos Charms MB. That might help some.
Re: Spsiegel1987
Very good point about Eldrazi Tron during Grixis Shadow's reign of terror for a while. I won't lie that happened to me at GP Vegas I stayed the night at an Air B&B and there were few magic dudes as we were all testing the night before on how to beat Shadow and 3 out of the 6 dudes were on Shadow. All 3x of the Shadow dudes didn't make day two because they got hated out. The one guy there on Eldrazi Tron made day two with me. People get so psyched out by focusing on the #1 deck that they leave themselves open to the #2 deck at the time. I'm very supersized that Jund isn't the #1 played deck right now. Jace has stole the show and has all eyes on him.
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Standard // nRG Aggro
Modern // Burn (main) and Living End (secondary) now Jund.
For fun check out my janky combo primer: Turn 3 Grixis Combo
"Can't beat em' Jund em'!"
It is very hard to deal with. Usually, the decks running him won't turn him into a creature and then we cant remove him. The best thing we can do is race at this point, because you will simply loose if he stays on the board for too long.
I made a research about the average Jund deck that played 4 BBE in the past. I took all Jund decks from the printing of BBE until the printing of DRS (Since DRS decks obviously run different land counts) which was essentially from 3rd of October 2008 until 5th October 2012. I did however take only decks into account that ran both 4 Goyf and 4 Bob. That became only popular at the beginning in 2011 more or less. I observed an interesting fact, from 2011 on until the printing of DRS, Jund decks had a tendency to go from 24 lands up to 25 lands. In 2011, all decks ran 24 lands. Over the next year Jund decks used 25 lands more commonly. And to add, the basic manacurve did not change much through this process. So here are the facts:
All decks ran 4 BBE, 4 Goyf, 4 Bob and 3-4 Finks as creature suite. Some ran 1-2 Grim Lavamancer at 24 lands.
On average 16 creatures and 19 noncreature spells when running 25 lands, and 17 creatures when running 24 lands.
On average, 4 IOK, 4 Bolt, 2 TS, 4 Liliana and 3 Pulse 1 Garruk Relentless and 1 Blightning were run at 24 lands.
On average, 4 IOK, 2 TS, 3 LoTV, 2 Pulse, 4 Bolt, 2 Terminate and 2 Jund Charm were run at 25 lands.
Thats 12 one drops, 8 two drops, 11 three drops and 5 four drops at 24 lands.
Thats 10 one drops, 10 two drops, 11 three drops and 4 four drops at 25 lands.
So what can we say about that? Have people over time figured out that 24 lands is too few? Or was the meta forgiving enough that running 24 lands only was viable? IDK personally.
So what can we say about that? Have people over time figured out that 24 lands is too few? Or was the meta forgiving enough that running 24 lands only was viable? IDK personally.
Thanks for the info, FlyingDelver!
It would be nice to know how many lands were run by each list; I understand (from Reid Duke's article) that a higher number of man-lands were run back then, thus the recent "addition" of treetop village. Maybe lists with 25 lands run an extra man-land?
Here's a list I've been playing online lately... I know that taking Dark Confidant out is pretty controversial... but that's where Tireless Tracker takes over, as well as Grim Flayer of course... Tracker and Flayer aren't a dead late-game cascade either... Also, Field of Ruin is everywhere, so I've added an extra Blood Crypt.
The trouble that I have with testing my lists though, is that I'm still quite a noob and very much still developing, which means I make a punt or two just about every match. I'm also not sure about sideboarding against some decks now and then. For this reason it's difficult for me to really assess how strong a list really is... ah well.. less punts with time I hope haha!
24 lands hasn't felt too few at all, it's been enough games now that it feels consistent. 25 lands feels far more vital to expensive decks like UW Control where they REALLY need to hit land 4 on curve.
Also, I'm still waiting to see what the pros do. What if we hysterically find out curving into Rabblemaster into BBE is the stone cold nuts? I'm not saying that will happen but I'll keep an open mind.
Also, Shota, yeah, bro, thats why LEH and me were recommending the 2nd forest over the mountain.
Does anyone with experience have a good sideboard plan for Mardu? I know in my experience I haven't done well against it.
The Jund Facebook is a gigantic mess. I don't mind new people buying Jund but there's a lot of bad players who know nothing about the deck making all these declarations like "Abzan is dead!" and "we need to play 4x Blood Moons now". Their decklists are huge messes, too. Meanwhile, Delver's posting all these fantastic stats.
I haven't ran into Shadow, Abzan or Jund yet, so I'm nervous about playing those decks with the new list. We have less answers against death shadow decks in general now, since bolt is a very weak card against Shadow, Tasigur, Gurmag and Tarmogoyf.
If I know my opponents hand isn't great I'll absolutely slam BBE onto an empty board
Everyone is so prepared for Jace decks that Jund is really benefitting from this. I am scared of this changing when people realize BBE is doing more busted things than Jace
I'm more curious to see how the pros utilize Jace, because thus far watching the average player on Jace has been underwhelming.
I haven't ran into Shadow, Abzan or Jund yet, so I'm nervous about playing those decks with the new list. We have less answers against death shadow decks in general now, since bolt is a very weak card against Shadow, Tasigur, Gurmag and Tarmogoyf.
Actually, I think there are more Jund Shadow decks 5-0'ing on MTGO than Jund Midrange decks. Have you seen the lists? Look something similar to...
I haven't ran into Shadow, Abzan or Jund yet, so I'm nervous about playing those decks with the new list. We have less answers against death shadow decks in general now, since bolt is a very weak card against Shadow, Tasigur, Gurmag and Tarmogoyf.
Actually, I think there are more Jund Shadow decks 5-0'ing on MTGO than Jund Midrange decks. Have you seen the lists? Look something similar to...
Additionally, UW and BG are able to make good use of the untapped basic. UW can cantrip or cast Path to Exile, while BG can cast a revolted Fatal Push or a discard spell. In a way, it lets you double spell on turn 3, which can be a good way to start building momentum.
That Death's Shadow list is very interesting. I could see it being a great alternative to regular Jund in a meta with a lot of big mana.
We can activate FoR turn 3 and play a BBE turn 4. We are a mana intensive deck with all the 3/4 drops, scooze, manlands, and the extra cards we draw with Bob. FoR can deal with problem lands without sacrificing resources.
FoR is best in Azorius control though that also runs path, Settle the wreckage, and GQ, and makes the opponent run out of basics, while playing spreading seas on nonbasics.
I don’t know if FoR is the right call for us. Right now I’m just playtesting it as a 1-of. It won me a game against American Jace control, but a GQ or Tec Edge would have also.
Private Mod Note
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Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
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I know that. It doesn't change what I've seen in competitive leagues, and it wasn't just once or twice.
In my experience, both ponza and blue moon are good matchups for Jund as long as your opening hand doesn't lose to a blood moon. Especially now with BBE legal.
I'm tempted to use his CFB list but -1 Raging Ravine and +1 Brutality in the main, unless someone has a persuasive reason why not.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
I'm not certain about the FoR in a deck that is so color intensive, especially since the return of BBE anf Bolt, but I'm starting to like the idea of running 5 basic lands and 25 lands overall for the first game, and simply siding out the Moutain or the second Forest, depending on the matchup.
WBC Eldrazi & Taxes CBW
UR Keep on Cantripin' (UR Phoenix) RU
WU Surprise! It's not UW Control! (UW Midrange) UW
BG The Rock, Straight BG
U Mono-Blue Fish U
RBW Mardu Pyromancer BWR
RG Rabble! Rabble! (GR Blood Moon Aggro) GR
Legacy
W Death & Taxes W
Hollow One is a tough one to answer in game 1. Not Jund specifically, but in a lot of BG/x decks I've taken to playing multiple Slaughter Pacts. In Jund we also have Ancient Grudge, which gets around the Burning Inquiries. Maybe the answer is to include cards we can pitch when they're bad, but are powerful answers when they're good and lean heavier on Brutality/Liliana as card filters? That would basically mean playing Rakdos Charms MB. That might help some.
They run very top heavy decks.
I've been very happy with 24 lands.
I think Reid created a good blueprint of jund for bbe, but very few people are running just 4 maindeck iok. The community seems split on 25 lands.
Very good point about Eldrazi Tron during Grixis Shadow's reign of terror for a while. I won't lie that happened to me at GP Vegas I stayed the night at an Air B&B and there were few magic dudes as we were all testing the night before on how to beat Shadow and 3 out of the 6 dudes were on Shadow. All 3x of the Shadow dudes didn't make day two because they got hated out. The one guy there on Eldrazi Tron made day two with me. People get so psyched out by focusing on the #1 deck that they leave themselves open to the #2 deck at the time. I'm very supersized that Jund isn't the #1 played deck right now. Jace has stole the show and has all eyes on him.
Modern // Burn (main) and Living End (secondary) now Jund.
For fun check out my janky combo primer: Turn 3 Grixis Combo
"Can't beat em' Jund em'!"
If the 25th land is a Treetop Village, it's sort of a creature, yeah?
It is very hard to deal with. Usually, the decks running him won't turn him into a creature and then we cant remove him. The best thing we can do is race at this point, because you will simply loose if he stays on the board for too long.
All decks ran 4 BBE, 4 Goyf, 4 Bob and 3-4 Finks as creature suite. Some ran 1-2 Grim Lavamancer at 24 lands.
On average 16 creatures and 19 noncreature spells when running 25 lands, and 17 creatures when running 24 lands.
On average, 4 IOK, 4 Bolt, 2 TS, 4 Liliana and 3 Pulse 1 Garruk Relentless and 1 Blightning were run at 24 lands.
On average, 4 IOK, 2 TS, 3 LoTV, 2 Pulse, 4 Bolt, 2 Terminate and 2 Jund Charm were run at 25 lands.
Thats 12 one drops, 8 two drops, 11 three drops and 5 four drops at 24 lands.
Thats 10 one drops, 10 two drops, 11 three drops and 4 four drops at 25 lands.
So what can we say about that? Have people over time figured out that 24 lands is too few? Or was the meta forgiving enough that running 24 lands only was viable? IDK personally.
Thanks for the info, FlyingDelver!
It would be nice to know how many lands were run by each list; I understand (from Reid Duke's article) that a higher number of man-lands were run back then, thus the recent "addition" of treetop village. Maybe lists with 25 lands run an extra man-land?
Regards!
2x Blood Crypt
3x Bloodstained Mire
2x Forest
2x Overgrown Tomb
3x Raging Ravine
1x Stomping Ground
2x Swamp
1x Twilight Mire
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Wooded Foothills
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Lightning Bolt
2x Terminate
1x Abrupt Decay
2x Kolaghan's Command
2x Maelstrom Pulse
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Grim Flayer
2x Tireless Tracker
4x Bloodbraid Elf
4x Liliana of the Veil
1x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Fatal Push
2x Thoughtseize
1x Grim Lavamancer
1x Grafdigger's Cage
2x Nihil Spellbomb
2x Collective Brutality
2x Ancient Grudge
3x Fulminator Mage
1x Kitchen Finks
The trouble that I have with testing my lists though, is that I'm still quite a noob and very much still developing, which means I make a punt or two just about every match. I'm also not sure about sideboarding against some decks now and then. For this reason it's difficult for me to really assess how strong a list really is... ah well.. less punts with time I hope haha!
24 lands hasn't felt too few at all, it's been enough games now that it feels consistent. 25 lands feels far more vital to expensive decks like UW Control where they REALLY need to hit land 4 on curve.
Also, I'm still waiting to see what the pros do. What if we hysterically find out curving into Rabblemaster into BBE is the stone cold nuts? I'm not saying that will happen but I'll keep an open mind.
Also, Shota, yeah, bro, thats why LEH and me were recommending the 2nd forest over the mountain.
Does anyone with experience have a good sideboard plan for Mardu? I know in my experience I haven't done well against it.
The Jund Facebook is a gigantic mess. I don't mind new people buying Jund but there's a lot of bad players who know nothing about the deck making all these declarations like "Abzan is dead!" and "we need to play 4x Blood Moons now". Their decklists are huge messes, too. Meanwhile, Delver's posting all these fantastic stats.
I haven't ran into Shadow, Abzan or Jund yet, so I'm nervous about playing those decks with the new list. We have less answers against death shadow decks in general now, since bolt is a very weak card against Shadow, Tasigur, Gurmag and Tarmogoyf.
If I know my opponents hand isn't great I'll absolutely slam BBE onto an empty board
Everyone is so prepared for Jace decks that Jund is really benefitting from this. I am scared of this changing when people realize BBE is doing more busted things than Jace
I'm more curious to see how the pros utilize Jace, because thus far watching the average player on Jace has been underwhelming.
Actually, I think there are more Jund Shadow decks 5-0'ing on MTGO than Jund Midrange decks. Have you seen the lists? Look something similar to...
4 Death's Shadow
4 Street Wraith
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Dreadbore
4 Thoughtseize
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
3 Kolaghan's Command
1 Tarfire
1 Temur Battle Rage
4 Mishra's Bauble
2 Seal of Fire
1 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
1 Mountain
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wooded Foothills
Quite a fearsome 60...
I tested that list a few nights ago, reaching 3 and 4 mana wasn't as hard as I thought it would be.
It's mana base was so much smoother thanks to the less greedy mana base.
Due to seal of fire and tarfire reaching delirium its way less of a headache.
You don't lose tempo with Field of Ruin. Both players get to search for a land, so for example
You're UW Control v Tron. Your turn 3 you crack the Field of Ruins and hit tower, UW still has 3 lands instead of 2, and you're not behind in tempo
GQ can be cracked at any time, but it feels awful to use early in the game, having my opponent on 3 lands while I'm at 1 is a huge loss for me.
Tectonic has to wait until 4 lands are on the field.
Thats the quick and easy explanation.
That Death's Shadow list is very interesting. I could see it being a great alternative to regular Jund in a meta with a lot of big mana.
We can activate FoR turn 3 and play a BBE turn 4. We are a mana intensive deck with all the 3/4 drops, scooze, manlands, and the extra cards we draw with Bob. FoR can deal with problem lands without sacrificing resources.
FoR is best in Azorius control though that also runs path, Settle the wreckage, and GQ, and makes the opponent run out of basics, while playing spreading seas on nonbasics.
I don’t know if FoR is the right call for us. Right now I’m just playtesting it as a 1-of. It won me a game against American Jace control, but a GQ or Tec Edge would have also.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB