I appreciate the reply but I've been playing this deck as long as modern has been a format (and even before when it was a thing in Standard) so while I'm not a fixture on the PT or the GP circuit I definitely know a thing or two about the deck.
That said, dropping to zero thoughtseize and only one fatal push is definitely warping the deck. And while people making these choices have expressed decent reasoning for doing so, they have all said that these are first, initial impressions of a build.
It's like a pendulum. People are excited to have BBE back and rightly so. They also predict a certain kind of metagame. They make changes to the deck to accommodate BBE but I'd argue perhaps in some cases going a tad over the top.
In a few weeks I guarantee we'll see it settling down as people remember how the deck functions with BBE and we start seeing thoughtseize creep back into maindecks and the number of fatal pushes goes back above a single copy.
We may even see one or two kitchen finks start appearing in maindecks as well (was always a prominent feature of old bloodbraid lists).
Finally, please note that I'm not opposed to the deck evolving. I'm not decrying innovation and I don't want the deck to be the same old jund it always was, far from it. I just recognise when people are spitballing vs testing. Current articles on builds are pure speculation. educated speculation but speccing nonetheless
Cutting to 1 push is fine, you have to remember that these decks are now running 4x bolts. That's 5x 1 drop removals. Bolts stock is back big time. Shadow and delve creatures are what wrecked bolt, but delver heavy builds will not do well in a Jace heavy world.
I wouldn't be shocked if Kitchen Finks ended up being a maindeck card, either.
I don’t even really like Tireless Tracker right now. It matches up poorly against Jace, specifically, and the normal pattern of playing it on turn 4 seems worse than just casting BBE. I think we’ll have enough card advantage without it that Tracker will just be kind of unnecessary. It’s also much worse in a world full of Bolts, which we look to be heading into.
@Spsiegel I think also that the deck will likely change, and in addition, for our tastes, quite "warpingly". But I do not think we should build the deck to only have good cascade targets. We are not a combo deck that needs to hit a certain card (Living End) to execute their gameplan in the first place. Therefore I would not compare our cascading to the cascading from Living End. Its a bit misleading.
Certain cards, which are considered to be bad cascade targets (discard/Push) certainly have enough upside to still make it worth playing the cards.
I also would not load up on "awesome" cascade targets to make the deck clunky as hell. We still need to interact from turn 1 on. And I dont find it useful that everyone should cut important interactive cards too much like discard.
I appreciate the reply but I've been playing this deck as long as modern has been a format (and even before when it was a thing in Standard) so while I'm not a fixture on the PT or the GP circuit I definitely know a thing or two about the deck.
That said, dropping to zero thoughtseize and only one fatal push is definitely warping the deck. And while people making these choices have expressed decent reasoning for doing so, they have all said that these are first, initial impressions of a build.
It's like a pendulum. People are excited to have BBE back and rightly so. They also predict a certain kind of metagame. They make changes to the deck to accommodate BBE but I'd argue perhaps in some cases going a tad over the top.
In a few weeks I guarantee we'll see it settling down as people remember how the deck functions with BBE and we start seeing thoughtseize creep back into maindecks and the number of fatal pushes goes back above a single copy.
We may even see one or two kitchen finks start appearing in maindecks as well (was always a prominent feature of old bloodbraid lists).
Finally, please note that I'm not opposed to the deck evolving. I'm not decrying innovation and I don't want the deck to be the same old jund it always was, far from it. I just recognise when people are spitballing vs testing. Current articles on builds are pure speculation. educated speculation but speccing nonetheless
I basically agree with you. I personally am also not a fan of trying thousand different things now, without actually knowing what we will be up against. Jund is a reactive deck at heart, so I personally like the sit and wait approach for now and stick to what we know. We have to know what we will be up against to adjust our deck accordingly.
Call me controversial but I'm still going to be running a 4/2 split of inquisition and thoughtseize.
I feel like people are overreacting a little bit to having a new tool in their deck and are warping their lists a bit above expectations just to appease the new card.
That said, k-command seems better now than ever before. Big fan of 2 or even 3 of these.
I also feel like fatal push should be a 2-of maybe. That's more tricky but only one seems low to me.
Two maelstrom pulse is pretty good but I'm gonna run a 1/1 split between pulse and abrupt decay. The uncounterable and instant is very valuable.
Otherwise I see most people are in more or less the same place which is cool. Jund life
People aren't overreacting, if you've read Jadine, Reid and Friedmans articles, they're advocating for Jund to change. They were well written and thought out.
This isn't a 4 drop that we can just slot in and call it a day.
Jund has always been a 1 for 1 deck---BBE now really changes this. K-Command, while good, never used this card as well as Shadow or Grixis Control, until now. The K-Command loops with BBE is very much a real thing.
Everyone is becoming too attached to cutting a little removal. Take a look at older lists, they weren't overloaded with removal. This aggression gives Jund a little less of that "oops, drew the wrong half of the deck" syndrome.
We aren't "warping" our decks...this is a part of deck building. If you have a bunch of awful cascades targets, it means your deck isn't well built. Jund can't 100% overhaul everything, but it can minimize it.
Think of it like Living End---if they had a bunch of cascade targets that didn't go into Living End, would you consider that good deck building?
As for you guys playing 4x LOTV, 2 Last Hope, 3x K-Command, you guys are overdoing it, that's too many 3 drops.
The format was also slow enough then that Jund was considered an aggro deck without Deathrite Shaman. I'm fairly sure you can agree that it hasn't been an aggro deck for years. It was also playing more threats then. Even with Bloodbraid Elf, it's still just a midrange deck now.
I basically agree with you. I personally am also not a fan of trying thousand different things now, without actually knowing what we will be up against. Jund is a reactive deck at heart, so I personally like the sit and wait approach for now and stick to what we know. We have to know what we will be up against to adjust our deck accordingly.
Agreed! If we test a ton of things at once, we won't know what's helping or what's hindering us.
There is none atm. I would suggest Playing 4 BBE with a regular Jund list, cut some Pushes, play 24 lands, cut down to 1 Decay and 2 Terminate and then see how it goes from there.
I want to see how bad it is on average to run the stock 6 discard spells alongside BBE. Right now I cant tell really. Just theorytalking up until this point.
This is my exact list except I'm running a 4th basic instead of Twilight Mire. My meta is very heavy on Path and Field of Ruin. I'll be testing with a buddy this afternoon who has UW with Jace to see how it stacks up.
Things to note:
- 23 Lands
- 4 BBE
- 2 Scooze
- Dreadbore over Terminate
- More Fatal Push over Bolt
- 3/3 split on hand disruption
- Last hope in main
- 2/1 split on Treetop and Ravine
- Sideboard full of one-of's
There is none atm. I would suggest Playing 4 BBE with a regular Jund list, cut some Pushes, play 24 lands, cut down to 1 Decay and 2 Terminate and then see how it goes from there.
I want to see how bad it is on average to run the stock 6 discard spells alongside BBE. Right now I cant tell really. Just theorytalking up until this point.
Isn't this almost literally the same exact list I've proposed?
All that's difference is the scooze, the pulse instead of K command, the third IOK for CB. The land base is even the same
Things to note:
- 23 Lands
- 4 BBE
- 2 Scooze
- Dreadbore over Terminate
- More Fatal Push over Bolt
- 3/3 split on hand disruption
- Last hope in main
- 2/1 split on Treetop and Ravine
- Sideboard full of one-of's
I don't like this list at all. There's no way 2x dreadbore is correct, that is a gross fear of Jace.
I don't think final lists will look like this at all
I especially hate that sideboard, it's ugly and there's no good rhyme or reason for it
Remember that the posted list could be from any number of Jund 5-0s, we have no idea. It would be pretty rare to see a Jund list that's over 20 cards different from another, so I would expect we just see one Jund list every update from now until Wizards changes the way they handle MTGO data.
In addition to being able to kill creatures. I believe all those cards are going to see a lot of play. Lots of people will be running Jace, and people will adjust to Jund’s Return. White decks will have Elspeth in the sideboard. More people will switch to Tron or BW tokens to prey on us. People will play GR Blood Moon with BBE and Garruck Wildspeaker.
Yeah, Dreadbore is a sorcery, but we’re casting it on our turn anyway off of a cascade, and a lot of times we want to destroy a blocker during our turn. It can’t answer attacking man-lands, but we have bolt, push, field of ruin, and fulminator mage for that, plus artifact destruction to take out affinity’s manlands.
I don’t know if 2 dreadbore is right or not, but I feel it’s way too early to say it’s definitely not correct.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
I want to see how bad it is on average to run the stock 6 discard spells alongside BBE. Right now I cant tell really. Just theorytalking up until this point.
I appreciate the reply but I've been playing this deck as long as modern has been a format (and even before when it was a thing in Standard) so while I'm not a fixture on the PT or the GP circuit I definitely know a thing or two about the deck.
That said, dropping to zero thoughtseize and only one fatal push is definitely warping the deck. And while people making these choices have expressed decent reasoning for doing so, they have all said that these are first, initial impressions of a build.
It's like a pendulum. People are excited to have BBE back and rightly so. They also predict a certain kind of metagame. They make changes to the deck to accommodate BBE but I'd argue perhaps in some cases going a tad over the top.
In a few weeks I guarantee we'll see it settling down as people remember how the deck functions with BBE and we start seeing thoughtseize creep back into maindecks and the number of fatal pushes goes back above a single copy.
We may even see one or two kitchen finks start appearing in maindecks as well (was always a prominent feature of old bloodbraid lists).
Finally, please note that I'm not opposed to the deck evolving. I'm not decrying innovation and I don't want the deck to be the same old jund it always was, far from it. I just recognise when people are spitballing vs testing. Current articles on builds are pure speculation. educated speculation but speccing nonetheless
I wouldn't be shocked if Kitchen Finks ended up being a maindeck card, either.
Ayyy that's what I'm on :3 I can't wait to test him out tonight against my buddies playing jace decks
Certain cards, which are considered to be bad cascade targets (discard/Push) certainly have enough upside to still make it worth playing the cards.
I also would not load up on "awesome" cascade targets to make the deck clunky as hell. We still need to interact from turn 1 on. And I dont find it useful that everyone should cut important interactive cards too much like discard.
I basically agree with you. I personally am also not a fan of trying thousand different things now, without actually knowing what we will be up against. Jund is a reactive deck at heart, so I personally like the sit and wait approach for now and stick to what we know. We have to know what we will be up against to adjust our deck accordingly.
The format was also slow enough then that Jund was considered an aggro deck without Deathrite Shaman. I'm fairly sure you can agree that it hasn't been an aggro deck for years. It was also playing more threats then. Even with Bloodbraid Elf, it's still just a midrange deck now.
FlyingDelver already covered the rest.
Agreed! If we test a ton of things at once, we won't know what's helping or what's hindering us.
Modern
UWGB 4c Snow Control BGWU
There is none atm. I would suggest Playing 4 BBE with a regular Jund list, cut some Pushes, play 24 lands, cut down to 1 Decay and 2 Terminate and then see how it goes from there.
Still experimenting with the numbers. However, I am looking at testing that list:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Twilight Mire
3 Raging Ravine
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Bloodbraid Elf
Noncreature Spells [22]
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
1 Fatal Push
2 Terminate
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
I want to see how bad it is on average to run the stock 6 discard spells alongside BBE. Right now I cant tell really. Just theorytalking up until this point.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Dreadbore
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Blood Crypt
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Blooming Marsh
1 Forest
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Raging Ravine
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
1 Treetop Village
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Collective Brutality
1 Damnation
1 Duress
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Golgari Charm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
Things to note:
- 23 Lands
- 4 BBE
- 2 Scooze
- Dreadbore over Terminate
- More Fatal Push over Bolt
- 3/3 split on hand disruption
- Last hope in main
- 2/1 split on Treetop and Ravine
- Sideboard full of one-of's
Isn't this almost literally the same exact list I've proposed?
All that's difference is the scooze, the pulse instead of K command, the third IOK for CB. The land base is even the same
I don't like this list at all. There's no way 2x dreadbore is correct, that is a gross fear of Jace.
I don't think final lists will look like this at all
I especially hate that sideboard, it's ugly and there's no good rhyme or reason for it
In addition to being able to kill creatures. I believe all those cards are going to see a lot of play. Lots of people will be running Jace, and people will adjust to Jund’s Return. White decks will have Elspeth in the sideboard. More people will switch to Tron or BW tokens to prey on us. People will play GR Blood Moon with BBE and Garruck Wildspeaker.
Yeah, Dreadbore is a sorcery, but we’re casting it on our turn anyway off of a cascade, and a lot of times we want to destroy a blocker during our turn. It can’t answer attacking man-lands, but we have bolt, push, field of ruin, and fulminator mage for that, plus artifact destruction to take out affinity’s manlands.
I don’t know if 2 dreadbore is right or not, but I feel it’s way too early to say it’s definitely not correct.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
If we are adding a Last Hope, thats 2x more sorcery speed cards we are adding. I think 1x Dreadbore is reasonable, 2 is not
4 bolts + 1-2 Fatal Push can most of the time handle the manland issue.
I will also probably jam Dreadbores in place of Terminates for a while and see how many Jace decks there will be in my meta, my expectation is: A LOT.
Any opinion on sideboard?
Modern
UWGB 4c Snow Control BGWU