25 lands was the norm in the 4 BBE lists (no Deathrite Shaman) that was successfull back in 2012.
Pro Tour Return to Ravnica (Seattle) is a very interesting event to look at where jund was the dominating deck. Deathrite had just been printed, so a lot of players still ran the classic 25 lands 4 BBE lists without deathrite, and the players who had picked up deathrite played 24 lands. The 25 lands lists usually ran 6 manlands and Treetop village was more popular than Raging Ravine.
Like Reid said, the format has become a lot more powerful that cards like Jund Charm, Blightning, Geralf's Messenger and Kitchen Finks wont be run as they were back then. Finks is obviously the only card that would still be good in the format, but I doubt in that high numbers like in the past.
The one card I am most excited about a possible revival is Treetop Village.
I think Reid's choices actually make a lot of sense. The logic is just that Jund with BBE is inherently good against Jace. Obviously, BBE and Bolt are effective against Jace, but more to the point, we are relatively threat-dense, so we can naturally pressure planeswalkers well. We don't have to play weird answers like Dreadbore. So what are we supposed to be afraid of? Answer: decks that are trying to go under 4-drops. That means Burn, traditional Zoo, and other true aggro decks that hit hard and fast. Therefore, 4 IOK, 0 Thoughtseize.
I actually think Reid's list is a little conservative! With BBE, I want my cascades to be really great. The Abrupt Decay in his maindeck feels like it should just be a second Maelstrom Pulse, and I'd cut the Fatal Push and maybe even the third Ooze for 2 Collective Brutality. With 25 land, you can make moves like this.
Speaking of land counts, I do not know why so many people here want to cut land. With 4 BBE and 0 DRS, 25 seems like the bare minimum and I'm tempted to run 26.
Reid is the Jund master, but I see it the opposite way: Jace, as the best planeswalker ever who provides incredible value turn after turn, is inherently good against midrange. Yeah, we have a lot of threats, but Jace helps them brainstorm for whatever answer they need, and they can lay him down after a board wipe.
I’d say combo decks, Aggro decks, Burn, tempo decks, Eldrazi Tron, traditional Tron, and decks that go super wide like BW tokens are all set up to combat Jace better than a traditional midrange deck like Jund.
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Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Like I said, playing less than 4 bbe main is just wrong. After playing last night I absolutely believe she should he played around. Playing all 4x bolts again felt magical man.
Maybe if 25 lands is played treetops will see a comeback.
Sideboarding against control is certainly different now. I used to board out my removal against blue decks, but bolt has become crucial for speed and jace now.
I imagine you board out
-2 push, -2 terminate, -1 decay,
+4 fulminator mage, +1 collective brutality
It used to be easier when bolt was bad against blue, I'm less sure now.
I have a feeling 4x fulminator mages will be good in the sb, I don't think I ever drew so many copies thanks to bbe.
My only dilemma is figuring out how to side now. I used to cut all bolts and pushes, and that worked well.
Any chance we move maelstrom pulse in the side and replace it with k command or LTLH?
I also wonder if 1 iok should be cut for a CB.
I know you guys want to keep the traditional package but the deck wants to maxamize on burn, speed and cascades
I really have to see how I'm going to make this deck. 3x K Command felt fantastic. I didn't find myself missing Scooze, but again, this was purely an experimental list. I don't feel like posting it because it's not worth testing.
I've felt the same way. I don't think we should be so quick to dismiss kitchen finks here, guys. This card is still very relevant. I've settled on 3 in my list instead of the Scavenging Ooze it's been nothing but gold so far.
By going down on conditional removal we naturally have less to board out in the control matchups.
Normally I would say cut bolts for sure, but I am also not sure how good Bolt is compared to IOK. Bolt can deal with Jace on board sometimes, or at least partially, and IOK can never deal with Jace. Depending on how important Jace will be against us (and I believe he will be very important) we need to have more ways to deal with Jace. Even if it would mean cut down on IOK. But I would try to keep them in.
Against Blue Moon we want abrupt decay to hit Blood Moon and Vedalken Shackles.
Against Jeskai bolting the opponent in the face seems bad when they’re casting lightning helix and sphyinx’s revelation.
Against Grixis bolt is bad against Tasiguir.
I’m also having a hard time deciding how to sideboard. I think the cards we want to bring in are duress, collective brutality, kitchen finks, fulminator mage, and Thrun. Boarding out removal like bolt, abrupt decay, and terminate seems right, as we want to be the aggressor, and Liliana, the last hope isn’t that good against them.
Could siding out Khologhan’s Command be correct? They don’t run artifacts, they side in GY hate, in addition to d-sphere, path, and settle the wreckage/terminus, so we often don’t have a creature to get back from our yard, they get to decide what card to discard, and a shock isn’t that great against them.
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Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
To avvoid having to go to 25 lands to play 4 BBE, it can perhaps be an option to play a singleton Traverse instead of that last land, like some BGx-lists have been doing lately anyway. It can fetch a land if needed in the early game or find a BBE or something (silver bullet/Thrun etc.) in the lategame.
To avvoid having to go to 25 lands to play 4 BBE, it can perhaps be an option to play a singleton Traverse instead of that last land, like some BGx-lists have been doing lately anyway. It can fetch a land if needed in the early game or find a BBE or something (silver bullet/Thrun etc.) in the lategame.
That implies that you can reach delirium consistantly, which is really not the case, especially against Control.
"The short answer is that Inquisition is one of the best cards against Burn/fast aggro and Thoughtseize is one of the worst cards against Burn/fast aggro."
It means that not every deck in Modern is a Jace deck, and that people will be trying to go under Jace to beat him. Reid is hedging against the decks that beat Jace. I think that his list is more appropriate for something like a GP, with a wide open field, than week 1 after the unbans at your LGS, though. I'm fully expecting 70% of the people at my shop to have either Jace, BBE, or Karn in their deck on Monday, so my list looks very different from Reid's.
To avvoid having to go to 25 lands to play 4 BBE, it can perhaps be an option to play a singleton Traverse instead of that last land, like some BGx-lists have been doing lately anyway. It can fetch a land if needed in the early game or find a BBE or something (silver bullet/Thrun etc.) in the lategame.
That implies that you can reach delirium consistantly, which is really not the case, especially against Control.
I did say lategame. As we all know, delirium is not for certain, but with Lilianas, brutality etc. there's a high chance even a regular BGx midrange deck will reach delirium at some point in the game (probably later than in a dedicated delirium deck like Traverse shadow of course) In all cases it can be played as a basic land, so it's not a dead card if you don't have delirium. Some prefer the opportunity of lategame value to the increased chance of flooding when you go from 24 to 25 lands. We do play goyf, so every measure to increase the chance of delirium, like adding brutality, seal of fire, Nihil Spellbomb etc. can also help goyf.
A couple of example top 8 lists with Traverse as a one of: http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=12554&d=272444&f=MO http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=15847&d=297303&f=MO
So far from my testing if I look at BBE against Jace, Jace is ahead. As well as LoTV vs. Jace, where Jace is also ahead. We need a good cascade, or the opponent to not have powerful support cards like Cryptic or Path to protect Jace, in order to beat Jace. That generally makes it hard for us to deal with Jace.
If they don't have Jace though, BBE alone can swing games completely in our favor. If you have a BBE and LoTV on board against Control we are in a good shape.
All factors considered Control is surely ahead at the end of the day. Jace on an empty field can win the game alone. BBE is strong, but is worse on empty boards and can not win the game on its own that likely. BBE + LoTV or whatever moreso.
We can disrupt Jace on an empty board either with BBE (which I dont think is likely, since a smart opponent would play Jace and + immediatly) or just Maelstrom Pulse/Dreadbore. The latter seems like the best option.
It is naturally less likely that we will have BBE + LoTV on an empty board against Control than Control having a Jace on an empty board against us. And if we have multiple stuff on the board, Control can most of the time "handle" it with Cryptic.
To avvoid having to go to 25 lands to play 4 BBE, it can perhaps be an option to play a singleton Traverse instead of that last land, like some BGx-lists have been doing lately anyway. It can fetch a land if needed in the early game or find a BBE or something (silver bullet/Thrun etc.) in the lategame.
That implies that you can reach delirium consistantly, which is really not the case, especially against Control.
I did say lategame. As we all know, delirium is not for certain, but with Lilianas, brutality etc. there's a high chance even a regular BGx midrange deck will reach delirium at some point in the game (probably later than in a dedicated delirium deck like Traverse shadow of course) In all cases it can be played as a basic land, so it's not a dead card if you don't have delirium. Some prefer the opportunity of lategame value to the increased chance of flooding when you go from 24 to 25 lands. We do play goyf, so every measure to increase the chance of delirium, like adding brutality, seal of fire, Nihil Spellbomb etc. can also help goyf.
A couple of example top 8 lists with Traverse as a one of: http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=12554&d=272444&f=MO http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=15847&d=297303&f=MO
Yes, and I also mean in the lategame. I had multiple experiences with Traverse and delirium in general, the upside is high, but the downside is incredibly low. And I dont like that in a goodstuff oriented deck where individual and reliable card quality is what we seek. The variance is not something I want to be relying on. And what I certainly dont want, is starting adding very bad support cards to enable delirium. The only support card I can see going in a GBx shell, is Nihil Spellbomb or, if the meta allows it, Engineered Explosives. The latter wont be played anymore though, singelhandedly due to BBE.
Burn/fast aggro will be part of the meta but so will control, combo, ramp, and slower creature decks.
I still like a 4/2 split of IoK and TS. TS being able to hit Jace, Supreme Verdict, Cryptic Command, Karn, Wurmcoil Engine, Reality Smasher, Collected Company, Master of Waves, and BBE is great.
I still think 6 turn 1 discard MB is the right number. Protecting a turn 2 Bob or a turn 2 goyf that you’ve made into a 3/4 is huge.
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Modern
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Burn/fast aggro will be part of the meta but so will control, combo, ramp, and slower creature decks.
I still like a 4/2 split of IoK and TS. TS being able to hit Jace, Supreme Verdict, Cryptic Command, Karn, Wurmcoil Engine, Reality Smasher, Collected Company, Master of Waves, and BBE is great.
I still think 6 turn 1 discard MB is the right number. Protecting a turn 2 Bob or a turn 2 goyf that you’ve made into a 3/4 is huge.
Here's where I'm at right now. I feel like 5 discard plus a brutality is correct. Going with a 3/2 IOK TS split because we want to be ready for the aggro wave that will surely pop up to go under jace. 24 lands seems fine and 25 seems excessive to me. I really like my sideboard right now. It may change depending on what happens with aggro decks but it feels perfect against control. my other thoughts are if i want a 2nd push and terminate and right now, I'm unsure on that too.
The deck is working well. In fact, I feel like it got faster despite the curvw going up a little. Mg cascades aren't whiffing often since I built the deck to not be so conditional
Kolaghan's command and last hope just abuse bbe. We have no mana dork but bbe is way better now
Hope you guys try it out before blowing it off. I spent time crafting this deck and testing it. Hope you guys help refine it. It burns people out fast and turns the corner
Just won from mulling to 4 against a ur tempo deck
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Yep, there it is
Pro Tour Return to Ravnica (Seattle) is a very interesting event to look at where jund was the dominating deck. Deathrite had just been printed, so a lot of players still ran the classic 25 lands 4 BBE lists without deathrite, and the players who had picked up deathrite played 24 lands. The 25 lands lists usually ran 6 manlands and Treetop village was more popular than Raging Ravine.
Many of the decklists are listed here:
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=3652&d=221861&f=MO
Most of these lists played 3-4 Kitchen Finks, like Willy Edel (who made top 8):
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Blood Crypt
1 Forest
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Raging Ravine
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
4 Treetop Village
3 Twilight Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
17 CREATURES
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Dismember
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Jund Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Thoughtseize
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Batterskull
1 Bituminous Blast
3 Fulminator Mage
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Rakdos Charm
2 Slaughter Games
1 Wurmcoil Engine
And some lists even played Geralf's Messenger in the 3 drop-spot instead of Kitchen Finks, like Bruno da Fonseca:
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
2 Blood Crypt
1 Forest
1 Lavaclaw Reaches
1 Marsh Flats
2 Overgrown Tomb
2 Raging Ravine
2 Swamp
3 Treetop Village
3 Twilight Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
16 CREATURES
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Geralf's Messenger
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Dismember
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Jund Charm
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Thoughtseize
2 OTHER SPELLS
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Batterskull
3 Fulminator Mage
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Obstinate Baloth
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Rakdos Charm
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
UWRUWR Delver/Lynx TempoUWR-------UWRUWR Midrange GeistUWR-------UWRUWR Nahiri ControlUWR-------UWRUWR SaheeliUWR
BGRJund / Jund ShadowBGR-------BGWAbzan / Abzan ShadowBGW
Commander (Leviathan/MTGO): UWGeist of Saint TraftUW
The one card I am most excited about a possible revival is Treetop Village.
Reid is the Jund master, but I see it the opposite way: Jace, as the best planeswalker ever who provides incredible value turn after turn, is inherently good against midrange. Yeah, we have a lot of threats, but Jace helps them brainstorm for whatever answer they need, and they can lay him down after a board wipe.
I’d say combo decks, Aggro decks, Burn, tempo decks, Eldrazi Tron, traditional Tron, and decks that go super wide like BW tokens are all set up to combat Jace better than a traditional midrange deck like Jund.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Maybe if 25 lands is played treetops will see a comeback.
Sideboarding against control is certainly different now. I used to board out my removal against blue decks, but bolt has become crucial for speed and jace now.
I imagine you board out
-2 push, -2 terminate, -1 decay,
+4 fulminator mage, +1 collective brutality
It used to be easier when bolt was bad against blue, I'm less sure now.
I have a feeling 4x fulminator mages will be good in the sb, I don't think I ever drew so many copies thanks to bbe.
My only dilemma is figuring out how to side now. I used to cut all bolts and pushes, and that worked well.
Any chance we move maelstrom pulse in the side and replace it with k command or LTLH?
I also wonder if 1 iok should be cut for a CB.
I know you guys want to keep the traditional package but the deck wants to maxamize on burn, speed and cascades
I've felt the same way. I don't think we should be so quick to dismiss kitchen finks here, guys. This card is still very relevant. I've settled on 3 in my list instead of the Scavenging Ooze it's been nothing but gold so far.
Normally I would say cut bolts for sure, but I am also not sure how good Bolt is compared to IOK. Bolt can deal with Jace on board sometimes, or at least partially, and IOK can never deal with Jace. Depending on how important Jace will be against us (and I believe he will be very important) we need to have more ways to deal with Jace. Even if it would mean cut down on IOK. But I would try to keep them in.
Against Azorius control abrupt decay can hit:
Against Blue Moon we want abrupt decay to hit Blood Moon and Vedalken Shackles.
Against Jeskai bolting the opponent in the face seems bad when they’re casting lightning helix and sphyinx’s revelation.
Against Grixis bolt is bad against Tasiguir.
I’m also having a hard time deciding how to sideboard. I think the cards we want to bring in are duress, collective brutality, kitchen finks, fulminator mage, and Thrun. Boarding out removal like bolt, abrupt decay, and terminate seems right, as we want to be the aggressor, and Liliana, the last hope isn’t that good against them.
Could siding out Khologhan’s Command be correct? They don’t run artifacts, they side in GY hate, in addition to d-sphere, path, and settle the wreckage/terminus, so we often don’t have a creature to get back from our yard, they get to decide what card to discard, and a shock isn’t that great against them.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
UWRUWR Delver/Lynx TempoUWR-------UWRUWR Midrange GeistUWR-------UWRUWR Nahiri ControlUWR-------UWRUWR SaheeliUWR
BGRJund / Jund ShadowBGR-------BGWAbzan / Abzan ShadowBGW
Commander (Leviathan/MTGO): UWGeist of Saint TraftUW
That implies that you can reach delirium consistantly, which is really not the case, especially against Control.
"The short answer is that Inquisition is one of the best cards against Burn/fast aggro and Thoughtseize is one of the worst cards against Burn/fast aggro."
I did say lategame. As we all know, delirium is not for certain, but with Lilianas, brutality etc. there's a high chance even a regular BGx midrange deck will reach delirium at some point in the game (probably later than in a dedicated delirium deck like Traverse shadow of course) In all cases it can be played as a basic land, so it's not a dead card if you don't have delirium. Some prefer the opportunity of lategame value to the increased chance of flooding when you go from 24 to 25 lands. We do play goyf, so every measure to increase the chance of delirium, like adding brutality, seal of fire, Nihil Spellbomb etc. can also help goyf.
A couple of example top 8 lists with Traverse as a one of:
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=12554&d=272444&f=MO
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=15847&d=297303&f=MO
UWRUWR Delver/Lynx TempoUWR-------UWRUWR Midrange GeistUWR-------UWRUWR Nahiri ControlUWR-------UWRUWR SaheeliUWR
BGRJund / Jund ShadowBGR-------BGWAbzan / Abzan ShadowBGW
Commander (Leviathan/MTGO): UWGeist of Saint TraftUW
If they don't have Jace though, BBE alone can swing games completely in our favor. If you have a BBE and LoTV on board against Control we are in a good shape.
All factors considered Control is surely ahead at the end of the day. Jace on an empty field can win the game alone. BBE is strong, but is worse on empty boards and can not win the game on its own that likely. BBE + LoTV or whatever moreso.
We can disrupt Jace on an empty board either with BBE (which I dont think is likely, since a smart opponent would play Jace and + immediatly) or just Maelstrom Pulse/Dreadbore. The latter seems like the best option.
It is naturally less likely that we will have BBE + LoTV on an empty board against Control than Control having a Jace on an empty board against us. And if we have multiple stuff on the board, Control can most of the time "handle" it with Cryptic.
Yes, and I also mean in the lategame. I had multiple experiences with Traverse and delirium in general, the upside is high, but the downside is incredibly low. And I dont like that in a goodstuff oriented deck where individual and reliable card quality is what we seek. The variance is not something I want to be relying on. And what I certainly dont want, is starting adding very bad support cards to enable delirium. The only support card I can see going in a GBx shell, is Nihil Spellbomb or, if the meta allows it, Engineered Explosives. The latter wont be played anymore though, singelhandedly due to BBE.
I still like a 4/2 split of IoK and TS. TS being able to hit Jace, Supreme Verdict, Cryptic Command, Karn, Wurmcoil Engine, Reality Smasher, Collected Company, Master of Waves, and BBE is great.
I still think 6 turn 1 discard MB is the right number. Protecting a turn 2 Bob or a turn 2 goyf that you’ve made into a 3/4 is huge.
JundBGR
RW Blood MoonRW
Pauper
Delver U
Elves G
Control B
Commander
Edgar Markov BRW
Captain Sisay GW
Niv-Mizzet, Parun UR
Tymna and Ravos WB
Couldn't agree more.
// 60 Maindeck
// 14 Creature
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Bloodbraid Elf
// 9 Instant
1 Fatal Push
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Terminate
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Abrupt Decay
// 24 Land
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Forest
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Raging Ravine
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Twilight Mire
1 Treetop Village
2 Wooded Foothills
// 5 Planeswalker
4 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
// 8 Sorcery
2 Thoughtseize
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Dreadbore
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Collective Brutality
// 15 Sideboard
// 2 Artifact
SB: 2 Nihil Spellbomb
// 8 Creature
SB: 1 Grim Lavamancer
SB: 3 Fulminator Mage
SB: 1 Thrun, the Last Troll
SB: 2 Tireless Tracker
SB: 1 Hazoret the Fervent
// 2 Instant
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
// 1 Planeswalker
SB: 1 Liliana, the Last Hope
// 2 Sorcery
SB: 2 Collective Brutality
Modern: Mono U Tron, Ajundi, Ad Nauseam, TITI Moon, GR Ponza, 5C Humans
Legacy: Lands, Mono Red Sneak, 4C Loam
4x verdant catacombs
4x bloodstained mire
1x wooded foothills
2x overgrown tomb
1x stomping ground
1x blood crypt
4x blackcleave cliffs
3x raging ravine
1x twilight mire
2x swamp
1x forest
Creatures 14
4x tarmogiuf
4x dark confidant
1x scavenging ooze
1x grim lavamancer
4x bloodbrsid elf
3x thoughtseize
2x inquisition of kozilek
4x lightning bolt
1x fatal push
1x abrupt decay
2x terminate
1x collective brutality
3x kolaghan's command
1x lilana, the last hope
4x liliana of the veil
4x fulminator mage
1x anger of the gods
2x collective brutality
1x anger of the gods
2x kitchen finks
1x maelstrom pulse
2x ancient grudges
1x nihil spellbomb
1x grafdigger's cage
Not sure about my sideboard yet
The deck is working well. In fact, I feel like it got faster despite the curvw going up a little. Mg cascades aren't whiffing often since I built the deck to not be so conditional
Kolaghan's command and last hope just abuse bbe. We have no mana dork but bbe is way better now
Hope you guys try it out before blowing it off. I spent time crafting this deck and testing it. Hope you guys help refine it. It burns people out fast and turns the corner
Just won from mulling to 4 against a ur tempo deck