Why argue on what the pros say? Call up your fav control player and offer some pizza, beer, and an afternoon of testing haha while doing so, record the win ratio of 10-20 games with the walker and the other 10-20 without. That should probably be the minimum number of games taken place to account for variance.
Alright! I set up a meeting with a good buddy of mine this weekend who plays nothing but UWR control and it's variants. We'll be playing 40 matches. My goal is to have 20 with lily and 20 without and record the results. Any lists you guys wanna test or test against? Feel free to let me know via here or discord chat.
The list I'll be piloting will be: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/898839#paper, THIS CAN BE CHANGED if you guys wish. I want to get accurate testing results, so if we could agree on a decent 75 that would be best
I want to finish my deck getting 1 Damnation, 1 Liliana of the Veil, 2 Hazoret and 2 Rabblemaster, and for the trade I have 1 Blood Moon, 2 Kalitas, 1 Arid Mesa and 1 Wooded Foothils, does any of these cards that I have to trade have great use in jund, or can I trade them? For land hate I prefer Fulminator Mage above Blood Moon, and the Arid Mesa I was thinking for a white splash someday. What you guys think?
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Modern
B 8rackB G Aggro Elves G UW Ad NauseamBR G Gr Tron R U U Tron U B Monoblack Vampires B BGR Jund BGR
I want to finish my deck getting 1 Damnation, 1 Liliana of the Veil, 2 Hazoret and 2 Rabblemaster, and for the trade I have 1 Blood Moon, 2 Kalitas, 1 Arid Mesa and 1 Wooded Foothils, does any of these cards that I have to trade have great use in jund, or can I trade them? For land hate I prefer Fulminator Mage above Blood Moon, and the Arid Mesa I was thinking for a white splash someday. What you guys think?
Kalitas is a creature which did see play in the past, but currently there is no place for Kalitas. I personally like to have a gauntlet of cards to have though to adjust to the meta. Wooded Foothills is a staple in the deck as a 1 or 2 of. Blood Moon is a card you can play, but its preference. Arid Mesa you can trade.
It would also be interesting for you to pair Todd's list up against him too.
I thought of this too. But the purpose of the test is to see if Liliana of The Veil is good against the true control deck. Unfortunately, this list isn't like everyone else's out there, so the test wouldn't be as credible if we tried something other than what's actively being played.
That being said, I do want to try out 1 or 2 Hazoret in the list. But we run into the same issue just mentioned. For now, we'll just focus on Liliana during the test then afterwards comes the changes in the 75. How does that sound, everyone?
I noticed in some of Todd's matches against humans and storm he sided out Hazoret. What would be the reasoning to do that and in what other matchups?
The reason he boarded out Hazoret against Humans is because they have very little removal which makes it worse. Hazoret is the best against decks with lots of removal because its indestructibility helps when facing all that removal.
Shouldn't that reasoning make Hazoret an all-star in that match? I figured it was cut because all you need against Him and is cheap interaction. Once you've survived the onslaught, almost anything that has legs will be enough to kill the opponent. What you don't want is a 4-cmc spell in your opening hand to further clog up what you have going on. At least that's my take on it.
"Liliana of the Veil is how black midrange beats control and Valakut." Statement from Reid's latest article, in case someone is still on Todd's side for the LoTV against Control debate. I am fully with Reid here.
Just to let you know guys, Reid also literally said: Blood Moon doesn't belong in Jund. I have come to the conclusion that Blood Moon in Jund is too sketchy and most likely just a trap. It just doesn't make sense that we loose to itself if we don't have double black and green basics out.
In current times a deck like Jund needs to be as consistant as possible in order to have high tournament finishes, if ever. Playing Blood Moon is not the best idea to stop Tron. I prefer Fulminators (which are also a double edged sword against Control, another tough matchup) and tight play rather than trying something inconsistant like that.
I always thought we trade away our dead cards.
I didn't think Todd would be so good as a jund player--but he was.
I only have MTGO to practice now outside of FNMs. The FNM I go to is in philly about 25 minutes out from me.
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@Spsiegel You are sure Todd played that well? I was not blown away by his playing actually.
Thats what I thooooooooought!
Of course she needs to be paired with discard and fulms.
Ok, that really makes me feel better.
EDIT: We've decided to have the control player pilot the following list: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=118062
The list I'll be piloting will be: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/898839#paper, THIS CAN BE CHANGED if you guys wish. I want to get accurate testing results, so if we could agree on a decent 75 that would be best
Modern
B 8rack B
G Aggro Elves G
U W Ad Nauseam BR
G Gr Tron R
U U Tron U
B Monoblack Vampires B
BGR Jund BGR
Kalitas is a creature which did see play in the past, but currently there is no place for Kalitas. I personally like to have a gauntlet of cards to have though to adjust to the meta. Wooded Foothills is a staple in the deck as a 1 or 2 of. Blood Moon is a card you can play, but its preference. Arid Mesa you can trade.
Modern
B 8rack B
G Aggro Elves G
U W Ad Nauseam BR
G Gr Tron R
U U Tron U
B Monoblack Vampires B
BGR Jund BGR
I thought of this too. But the purpose of the test is to see if Liliana of The Veil is good against the true control deck. Unfortunately, this list isn't like everyone else's out there, so the test wouldn't be as credible if we tried something other than what's actively being played.
That being said, I do want to try out 1 or 2 Hazoret in the list. But we run into the same issue just mentioned. For now, we'll just focus on Liliana during the test then afterwards comes the changes in the 75. How does that sound, everyone?
Yes the third Foothills is not needed. I guess 1 Kalitas is fine yeah.
Shouldn't that reasoning make Hazoret an all-star in that match? I figured it was cut because all you need against Him and is cheap interaction. Once you've survived the onslaught, almost anything that has legs will be enough to kill the opponent. What you don't want is a 4-cmc spell in your opening hand to further clog up what you have going on. At least that's my take on it.
Also, with what he described, isn't the Rabblemaster Moon plan actually exactly what Jund wants?
In current times a deck like Jund needs to be as consistant as possible in order to have high tournament finishes, if ever. Playing Blood Moon is not the best idea to stop Tron. I prefer Fulminators (which are also a double edged sword against Control, another tough matchup) and tight play rather than trying something inconsistant like that.