They are both equally bad vs big mana, but Souls wins you atleast the attrition-based matchups. Jund is at its best against small creature decks but they are very rare nowadays.
They are both equally bad vs big mana, but Souls wins you atleast the attrition-based matchups. Jund is at its best against small creature decks but they are very rare nowadays.
Its not like it mattered much, but I think Jund has noticable better game vs. Big Mana (Bolt, Rabblemaster, Hazoret). Small creature decks are at least present in Humans, Affinity, and probably Abzan CoCo. I personally like Bolt better than Path. Souls is the only argument for Abzan, and I think its about preference at that point.
On the other hand, Stony Silence and Path (Wurmcoil, Worldbreaker, Ulamog) are decent against Tron. But yeah, I prefer having a faster clock against them.
They are both equally bad vs big mana, but Souls wins you atleast the attrition-based matchups. Jund is at its best against small creature decks but they are very rare nowadays.
Its not like it mattered much, but I think Jund has noticable better game vs. Big Mana (Bolt, Rabblemaster, Hazoret). Small creature decks are at least present in Humans, Affinity, and probably Abzan CoCo. I personally like Bolt better than Path. Souls is the only argument for Abzan, and I think its about preference at that point.
I think you're overselling the Jund vs Big Mana matchup a little bit. Both B/G/x decks against Tron are 90% to lose to a turn 3 Karn, with Jund having a slightly better chance of not losing on the spot thanks to Lightning Bolt. But Jund has a harder time winning through O-Stone and Wurmcoil because it doesn't have great ways of interacting with them, while Abzan has Stony Silence and Path. This isn't to say that the matchup is somehow better for Abzan, but both decks do have tools to deal with some aspect of what Tron is doing, the problem is that in most cases they're just not good enough for either deck. Scapeshift depends on deck construction, a Jund build with Rabblemasters and Hazoret will definitely have a better clock than virtually any Abzan build, but those cards aren't universal. That style of build is also sacrificing percentage points in other matchups. Grim Flayer is also a powerful filtering tool that Abzan is more likely to play, and this is one of the matchups that he shines in.
Both decks match up against Affinity similarly, with Jund having access to better hard removal (Ancient Grudge, K-Command), while Abzan makes use of more "soft" removal (Stony Silence, Lingering Souls). I've played a lot of this matchup with both decks and don't feel like one is significantly better than the other.
As far as Humans and Coco go, this is also somewhat related to deck construction, and even more related to player skill. Path is a more guaranteed removal spell than Bolt, but there are strong drawbacks to playing it too early in a game, and Bolt has more general utility. Both decks play Abrupt Decay, Fatal Push, and Maelstrom Pulse, and Jund gets Anger of the Gods while Abzan has to settle for things like Flaying Tendrils. Either way, both decks still have powerful options like Engineered Explosives and Damnation. I think that Jund has a slight edge in these matchups, but I don't think it's very significant and Abzan is still favored against them, even if it's not as much.
All of that being said, I think that the cards that Jund has access to allow it to be more generally versatile than Abzan. The debate for Abzan builds is largely Confidant vs Grim Flayer, with a more mild argument for delirium builds, but Jund builds tend to be much more varied these days. This is likely a scenario that rewards people with heavy experience with Jund, but makes Abzan a bit easier to just pick up and run with because it's harder to work yourself into a configuration that's trying to metagame too hard. I've seen success and failure with both decks over the course of the year, and have been playing Jund more recently lately. I've switched off of both to 5-Color Shadow for now, but if I had to play Jund or Abzan at a large tournament tomorrow I'm probably slightly more inclined to play Abzan with a creature suite of 4 Goyf/ 2 Ooze/ 2 Tracker/ 3 Flayer/ 2 Rhino.
I actually like Jund better than Abzan right now because I'm not big on Path to Exile. Sure it's a great catch all but there are a ton of decks in the format like Storm and Counter Company that you absolutely do not want to give them an extra land early. This is where Bolt has come back to being a great answer. I also tend to agree that I like Junds ability to clock over Abzans resilience and ability to grind right now. Games just aren't grinding out like they have in the past and Jund plays the better role of beat down.
These are gonna be great. I really think that tweet he sent out about the GP OKC results really grinded his gears. That top 8 was like a Bat Signal and Reid is jumping into action.
" I believe that a skilled pilot who knows how to mulligan and play the matchup, and who comes prepared with a decent sideboard, can win nearly half of their matches against Tron." --> Bold statement from Reid there. Can't confirm this out of my experience
" I believe that a skilled pilot who knows how to mulligan and play the matchup, and who comes prepared with a decent sideboard, can win nearly half of their matches against Tron." --> Bold statement from Reid there. Can't confirm this out of my experience
Yeah that is on the bold side. Now I really want for him to do a video series of how to play GBx vs Tron and give us the rundown. I can understand that statement if he is including Eldrazi Tron in that. I haven't lost to it yet. 5/6 Goyfs tend to really put a hurt on their attack plans. Usually long enough to turn the corner.
I actually like Jund better than Abzan right now because I'm not big on Path to Exile. Sure it's a great catch all but there are a ton of decks in the format like Storm and Counter Company that you absolutely do not want to give them an extra land early. This is where Bolt has come back to being a great answer. I also tend to agree that I like Junds ability to clock over Abzans resilience and ability to grind right now. Games just aren't grinding out like they have in the past and Jund plays the better role of beat down.
Everywhere where Path to Exile is bad, it will often be easily boarded out for better hate because that's usually what playing white cards in the sideboard is good for. Not to mention, you get to do this while still having access to Fatal Push. Your example seems a little less than good when you should be shaving removal even with Jund. Also, I haven't seen too many fast games in Modern right now. When I'm constantly seeing Storm with 6 or 7 lands out, how much more grindy can we get?
" I believe that a skilled pilot who knows how to mulligan and play the matchup, and who comes prepared with a decent sideboard, can win nearly half of their matches against Tron." --> Bold statement from Reid there. Can't confirm this out of my experience
He's not wrong. The problem is having the right sideboard in a metagame and not giving up too much for everything else. That has always been the problem.
I actually like Jund better than Abzan right now because I'm not big on Path to Exile. Sure it's a great catch all but there are a ton of decks in the format like Storm and Counter Company that you absolutely do not want to give them an extra land early. This is where Bolt has come back to being a great answer. I also tend to agree that I like Junds ability to clock over Abzans resilience and ability to grind right now. Games just aren't grinding out like they have in the past and Jund plays the better role of beat down.
Everywhere where Path to Exile is bad, it will often be easily boarded out for better hate because that's usually what playing white cards in the sideboard is good for. Not to mention, you get to do this while still having access to Fatal Push. Your example seems a little less than good when you should be shaving removal even with Jund. Also, I haven't seen too many fast games in Modern right now. When I'm constantly seeing Storm with 6 or 7 lands out, how much more grindy can we get?
What? Games in Modern have a tendency to go very very quickly. They only don't go quickly if you managed to stifle what your opponent is doing. Otherwise games end extremely fast. It's not hard to trim removal in Jund when you need to because Bolt at it's worst goes to the face and push at it's worse hits manlands.
Abzan is also more proactive than reactive due to Souls. You also need to consider and evaluate that.
All things being equal, you have a better shot with Abzan than Jund right now.
Why do you feel that way?
Its not like it mattered much, but I think Jund has noticable better game vs. Big Mana (Bolt, Rabblemaster, Hazoret). Small creature decks are at least present in Humans, Affinity, and probably Abzan CoCo. I personally like Bolt better than Path. Souls is the only argument for Abzan, and I think its about preference at that point.
I think you're overselling the Jund vs Big Mana matchup a little bit. Both B/G/x decks against Tron are 90% to lose to a turn 3 Karn, with Jund having a slightly better chance of not losing on the spot thanks to Lightning Bolt. But Jund has a harder time winning through O-Stone and Wurmcoil because it doesn't have great ways of interacting with them, while Abzan has Stony Silence and Path. This isn't to say that the matchup is somehow better for Abzan, but both decks do have tools to deal with some aspect of what Tron is doing, the problem is that in most cases they're just not good enough for either deck. Scapeshift depends on deck construction, a Jund build with Rabblemasters and Hazoret will definitely have a better clock than virtually any Abzan build, but those cards aren't universal. That style of build is also sacrificing percentage points in other matchups. Grim Flayer is also a powerful filtering tool that Abzan is more likely to play, and this is one of the matchups that he shines in.
Both decks match up against Affinity similarly, with Jund having access to better hard removal (Ancient Grudge, K-Command), while Abzan makes use of more "soft" removal (Stony Silence, Lingering Souls). I've played a lot of this matchup with both decks and don't feel like one is significantly better than the other.
As far as Humans and Coco go, this is also somewhat related to deck construction, and even more related to player skill. Path is a more guaranteed removal spell than Bolt, but there are strong drawbacks to playing it too early in a game, and Bolt has more general utility. Both decks play Abrupt Decay, Fatal Push, and Maelstrom Pulse, and Jund gets Anger of the Gods while Abzan has to settle for things like Flaying Tendrils. Either way, both decks still have powerful options like Engineered Explosives and Damnation. I think that Jund has a slight edge in these matchups, but I don't think it's very significant and Abzan is still favored against them, even if it's not as much.
All of that being said, I think that the cards that Jund has access to allow it to be more generally versatile than Abzan. The debate for Abzan builds is largely Confidant vs Grim Flayer, with a more mild argument for delirium builds, but Jund builds tend to be much more varied these days. This is likely a scenario that rewards people with heavy experience with Jund, but makes Abzan a bit easier to just pick up and run with because it's harder to work yourself into a configuration that's trying to metagame too hard. I've seen success and failure with both decks over the course of the year, and have been playing Jund more recently lately. I've switched off of both to 5-Color Shadow for now, but if I had to play Jund or Abzan at a large tournament tomorrow I'm probably slightly more inclined to play Abzan with a creature suite of 4 Goyf/ 2 Ooze/ 2 Tracker/ 3 Flayer/ 2 Rhino.
You already hit it: sideboard options. I also feel they don't have as large a problem with the "4-CMC" slot.
https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/thoughtseizes-and-fatal-pushes-part-i/
These are gonna be great. I really think that tweet he sent out about the GP OKC results really grinded his gears. That top 8 was like a Bat Signal and Reid is jumping into action.
Really nice, thx for letting me know, will add it!
Yeah that is on the bold side. Now I really want for him to do a video series of how to play GBx vs Tron and give us the rundown. I can understand that statement if he is including Eldrazi Tron in that. I haven't lost to it yet. 5/6 Goyfs tend to really put a hurt on their attack plans. Usually long enough to turn the corner.
Everywhere where Path to Exile is bad, it will often be easily boarded out for better hate because that's usually what playing white cards in the sideboard is good for. Not to mention, you get to do this while still having access to Fatal Push. Your example seems a little less than good when you should be shaving removal even with Jund. Also, I haven't seen too many fast games in Modern right now. When I'm constantly seeing Storm with 6 or 7 lands out, how much more grindy can we get?
He's not wrong. The problem is having the right sideboard in a metagame and not giving up too much for everything else. That has always been the problem.
What? Games in Modern have a tendency to go very very quickly. They only don't go quickly if you managed to stifle what your opponent is doing. Otherwise games end extremely fast. It's not hard to trim removal in Jund when you need to because Bolt at it's worst goes to the face and push at it's worse hits manlands.