Well I don't think so, I did the math alongside Frank Karsten's article on the hypergeometric function for how many lands you need to consistantly make your landdrops, and we are on the low side of things when you run 23 lands.
Assuming what average CMC for nonland spells in the deck?
Well I don't think so, I did the math alongside Frank Karsten's article on the hypergeometric function for how many lands you need to consistantly make your landdrops, and we are on the low side of things when you run 23 lands.
Assuming what average CMC for nonland spells in the deck?
I had just below 2 with my 23 land list and I was still screwed.
I went 4-0 last night with my current list. 2-1 Against GDS, 2-1 Against Jeskai Control, 2-0 in the Jund Mirror and 2-1 Against Bant Eldrazi.
A friend convinced me to put Ob Nix in the side against E-Tron and GDS and it was actually insane last night. My meta has zero scapeshift and the only tron variant is E-Tron. Plenty of U/W, Jeskai and Esper variants which is why I put Light & Shadow in the side.
Hey everyone! Long time lurker, first time poster. After looking over lots of input from here and the recent tournament results I have compiled a list incorporating elements from multiple sources and I will be trying the list over the next couple of weeks. Let me know what you all think, constructive criticism is welcomed!
Only three basics with Blood Moon in the sideboard? That seems iffy. I'd also shave either a bolt or a terminate and go up to the full playset of pushes.
Surgical Extraction without any land destruction? What are you planning on extracting with it? Running a full six Lili's mainboard also seems excessive.
To be honest this looks like you just picked things at random from several distinct successful lists without regard to how the different pieces would come together. Three copies of Scooze without a single Blooming Marsh? How are you going to activate the exiling ability?
Only three basics with Blood Moon in the sideboard? That seems iffy. I'd also shave either a bolt or a terminate and go up to the full playset of pushes.
Surgical Extraction without any land destruction? What are you planning on extracting with it? Running a full six Lili's mainboard also seems excessive.
To be honest this looks like you just picked things at random from several distinct successful lists without regard to how the different pieces would come together. Three copies of Scooze without a single Blooming Marsh? How are you going to activate the exiling ability?
1. The basics seem fine to me, two swamps and a forest is all I really ever need to cast anything in the deck. Maybe I would need to add another forest but nothing in my list costs double green.
2. I've tried a full playset of pushes in the past, sometimes wished a push was terminate. 2 Bolt seems fine since it allows for a little extra reach or to hit walkers.
3. Surgical is not solely used to hit lands, usually I'm hitting a combo piece with it.
4. The six Lili's is something I've been trying out ever since the walker rule got changed and so far they have been amazing and quickly finish games when they are both out on the board.
5. You don't need green mana specifically from blooming marsh to activate Scooze... there's Overgrown tomb, raging ravine, stomping ground, and a forest.
There's a small Nombo between sweeper and Goblin rabblemaster.
Maybe I'll try in the nexts few days 2x Grim Lavamencer instead of Kozilek Return and Anger of the god.
Not 100% sure it'll work tho.
One more thing, I kept 2 goblins rabblemaster in the deck against affinity.
It did pretty well. As soon as my oponent felt behind, The clock was very fast and my damage higher than his damage.
My clock was better than his clock. 3 is too much in the mu but 2 felt great.
Only three basics with Blood Moon in the sideboard? That seems iffy. I'd also shave either a bolt or a terminate and go up to the full playset of pushes.
Surgical Extraction without any land destruction? What are you planning on extracting with it? Running a full six Lili's mainboard also seems excessive.
To be honest this looks like you just picked things at random from several distinct successful lists without regard to how the different pieces would come together. Three copies of Scooze without a single Blooming Marsh? How are you going to activate the exiling ability?
1. The basics seem fine to me, two swamps and a forest is all I really ever need to cast anything in the deck. Maybe I would need to add another forest but nothing in my list costs double green.
2. I've tried a full playset of pushes in the past, sometimes wished a push was terminate. 2 Bolt seems fine since it allows for a little extra reach or to hit walkers.
3. Surgical is not solely used to hit lands, usually I'm hitting a combo piece with it.
4. The six Lili's is something I've been trying out ever since the walker rule got changed and so far they have been amazing and quickly finish games when they are both out on the board.
5. You don't need green mana specifically from blooming marsh to activate Scooze... there's Overgrown tomb, raging ravine, stomping ground, and a forest.
1. Yeah, you try siding those Blood Moons in a few times with that land base and let us know how it feels. I strongly suspect that you'll end up either locking yourself out or playing it to late to be relevant an uncomfortably high proportion of games.
2. What about the times you wished a terminate were a push? Not saying one configuration is strictly superior than the others by any means but 1 mana interaction is much better than 2 mana interaction all other things being equal - and in this particular example they often are.
3. Yeah I was genuinely asking there, not criticizing
4. I agree that having both out is amazing. I play a 3/2 split myself. You have 11 3cmc spells main decked though so I'm worried you'll have trouble curving out.
5. How much experience do you have with Scavenging Ooze? It's at its best when you have access to multiple sources of green mana and 7 lands vs say 9 makes for a dramatic difference in access to a color.
Well I don't think so, I did the math alongside Frank Karsten's article on the hypergeometric function for how many lands you need to consistantly make your landdrops, and we are on the low side of things when you run 23 lands. As we know Jund works great if we can cast multiple spells a turn. But alongside Ravine and the Fastlands, often you will have only 3 untapped lands on turn 4 with 23 lands only, which is really bad in my opinion.
Since you think 23 lands are fine, can you state why?
I'm my personal experience, I flood less with 23 lands and rarely have issues making land drops. There's really no deep answer as to "why," it's just the amount that feels right to me.
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Well I don't think so, I did the math alongside Frank Karsten's article on the hypergeometric function for how many lands you need to consistantly make your landdrops, and we are on the low side of things when you run 23 lands. As we know Jund works great if we can cast multiple spells a turn. But alongside Ravine and the Fastlands, often you will have only 3 untapped lands on turn 4 with 23 lands only, which is really bad in my opinion.
Since you think 23 lands are fine, can you state why?
I'm my personal experience, I flood less with 23 lands and rarely have issues making land drops. There's really no deep answer as to "why," it's just the amount that feels right to me.
With 2+ four drops I wouldnt go under 24 lands.
With no four drops maindeck, 23 lands felt optimal to me.
Well I don't think so, I did the math alongside Frank Karsten's article on the hypergeometric function for how many lands you need to consistantly make your landdrops, and we are on the low side of things when you run 23 lands. As we know Jund works great if we can cast multiple spells a turn. But alongside Ravine and the Fastlands, often you will have only 3 untapped lands on turn 4 with 23 lands only, which is really bad in my opinion.
Since you think 23 lands are fine, can you state why?
I'm my personal experience, I flood less with 23 lands and rarely have issues making land drops. There's really no deep answer as to "why," it's just the amount that feels right to me.
With 2+ four drops I wouldnt go under 24 lands.
With no four drops maindeck, 23 lands felt optimal to me.
The thing is, its really not about avergae cmc or 4 drops amount in the first place. We all know Jund works best when its able to cast at least 2 spells a turn, and pretty weak when it only can cast 1 spell a turn. And casting 2+ spells a turn pretty much requires 4+ untapped lands. With 4 Blackcleave, 3 Ravine, and 23 lands only, in my experience, often I was stranded on 3 lands on turn 4 and stranded on 4 lands on turn 5. Thats backbreaking against some decks and simply loosing games. And I really don't want to play a value based deck which just looses to itself sometimes and therefore knocks down winpercentage numbers. Its really stupid.
Anyone else get's trashed a lot by big control / jeskai geist?
I've even added Thrun to the SB but so far it didn't help that much.
Control matchups are generally hard for us, since most of our removal is either too situational or dead. You cannot play the value game like the control deck can. Thrun helps, but its only a singelton and you really can't count on a singleton to increase your winpercentage against a bad matchup. It is like it is.
I don't feel control is a terrible match up after sideboarding. I generally play Jund like bigger control deck. It really helps to have discard spells and big threats. Jeskai tempo, however, is a bit of a strange cat. Many of them don't play attrition wars very well, but it's a match where we could draw the wrong half our deck and be very sad.
I'm seriously considering adding blue or dumping red for blue for card draw or cantrips. Or maybe trying out Night's Whisper? We need something to add some consistency to Jund.
I'm seriously considering adding blue or dumping red for blue for card draw or cantrips. Or maybe trying out Night's Whisper? We need something to add some consistency to Jund.
I'm seriously considering adding blue or dumping red for blue for card draw or cantrips. Or maybe trying out Night's Whisper? We need something to add some consistency to Jund.
What blue cantrips are you thinking about? Opt? Serum? Night's Whisper is a neat card to have I guess, gives immediate value for grindy games.
Assuming what average CMC for nonland spells in the deck?
UWRUWR Delver/Lynx TempoUWR-------UWRUWR Midrange GeistUWR-------UWRUWR Nahiri ControlUWR-------UWRUWR SaheeliUWR
BGRJund / Jund ShadowBGR-------BGWAbzan / Abzan ShadowBGW
Commander (Leviathan/MTGO): UWGeist of Saint TraftUW
I had just below 2 with my 23 land list and I was still screwed.
My win % has been increase by alot with this configuration.
When you curve rabble into rabble. The dmg dealed is so insane lol.
I play my 4 drop in sb (1 x pia and 1 x huntmaster)
I dont like chandra right now. I feel the same as you FlyingDelver.
The only mu I side rabble out is against some kind of creatures deck (where we are already good) to bring in my 4 drop's.
Against combo and control; he did all I need.
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
Would you mind sharing your list please, Godrik?
4 Dark Confidant
3 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Hazoret the Fervent
Spells
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Fatal Push
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Terminate
3 Thoughtseize
4 Liliana of the Veil
Lands (24)
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Blooming Marsh
1 Forest
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Raging Ravine
1 Stomping Ground
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Collective Brutality
1 Damnation
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Kozilek's Return
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ob Nixilis Reignited
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
I went 4-0 last night with my current list. 2-1 Against GDS, 2-1 Against Jeskai Control, 2-0 in the Jund Mirror and 2-1 Against Bant Eldrazi.
A friend convinced me to put Ob Nix in the side against E-Tron and GDS and it was actually insane last night. My meta has zero scapeshift and the only tron variant is E-Tron. Plenty of U/W, Jeskai and Esper variants which is why I put Light & Shadow in the side.
4x Blackcleave Cliffs
1x Blood Crypt
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Forest
2x Overgrown Tomb
3x Raging Ravine
1x Stomping Ground
2x Swamp
4x Verdant Catacombs
1x Wooded Foothills
Planeswalker (6)
4x Liliana of the Veil
2x Liliana, the Last Hope
1x Abrupt Decay
3x Fatal Push
2x Kolaghan's Command
2x Lightning Bolt
3x Terminate
Creature (13)
4x Dark Confidant
2x Goblin Rabblemaster
3x Scavenging Ooze
4x Tarmogoyf
Sorcery (7)
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
1x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Thoughtseize
1x Ancient Grudge
1x Anger of the Gods
2x Blood Moon
3x Collective Brutality
1x Damnation
1x Huntmaster of the Fells
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Nihil Spellbomb
1x Pia and Kiran Nalaar
2x Surgical Extraction
Surgical Extraction without any land destruction? What are you planning on extracting with it? Running a full six Lili's mainboard also seems excessive.
To be honest this looks like you just picked things at random from several distinct successful lists without regard to how the different pieces would come together. Three copies of Scooze without a single Blooming Marsh? How are you going to activate the exiling ability?
1. The basics seem fine to me, two swamps and a forest is all I really ever need to cast anything in the deck. Maybe I would need to add another forest but nothing in my list costs double green.
2. I've tried a full playset of pushes in the past, sometimes wished a push was terminate. 2 Bolt seems fine since it allows for a little extra reach or to hit walkers.
3. Surgical is not solely used to hit lands, usually I'm hitting a combo piece with it.
4. The six Lili's is something I've been trying out ever since the walker rule got changed and so far they have been amazing and quickly finish games when they are both out on the board.
5. You don't need green mana specifically from blooming marsh to activate Scooze... there's Overgrown tomb, raging ravine, stomping ground, and a forest.
Jund never felt so well since a long long time.
There's a small Nombo between sweeper and Goblin rabblemaster.
Maybe I'll try in the nexts few days 2x Grim Lavamencer instead of Kozilek Return and Anger of the god.
Not 100% sure it'll work tho.
One more thing, I kept 2 goblins rabblemaster in the deck against affinity.
It did pretty well. As soon as my oponent felt behind, The clock was very fast and my damage higher than his damage.
My clock was better than his clock. 3 is too much in the mu but 2 felt great.
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
3 Goblin Rabblemaster
2 Scavenging Ooze
Instant(13)
3 Fatal push
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Kolaghan Command
3 Terminate
Sorcery(7)
1 Maelstrom pulse
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughseize
4 Liliana of the veil
Land(23)
4 Verdant catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Overgrown tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Blood crypt
3 Raging Ravine
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Kitchen finks
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
1 Huntmaster of the fells
1 Kozilek return
1 Anger of the gods
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Ancients Grudge
2 Collective Brutality
3 Blood moon
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
1. Yeah, you try siding those Blood Moons in a few times with that land base and let us know how it feels. I strongly suspect that you'll end up either locking yourself out or playing it to late to be relevant an uncomfortably high proportion of games.
2. What about the times you wished a terminate were a push? Not saying one configuration is strictly superior than the others by any means but 1 mana interaction is much better than 2 mana interaction all other things being equal - and in this particular example they often are.
3. Yeah I was genuinely asking there, not criticizing
4. I agree that having both out is amazing. I play a 3/2 split myself. You have 11 3cmc spells main decked though so I'm worried you'll have trouble curving out.
5. How much experience do you have with Scavenging Ooze? It's at its best when you have access to multiple sources of green mana and 7 lands vs say 9 makes for a dramatic difference in access to a color.
With 2+ four drops I wouldnt go under 24 lands.
With no four drops maindeck, 23 lands felt optimal to me.
BGUSultai Shadow
BURGrixis Shadow
BGUSultai midrange
BRWMardu Pyromancer
BGRJund
The thing is, its really not about avergae cmc or 4 drops amount in the first place. We all know Jund works best when its able to cast at least 2 spells a turn, and pretty weak when it only can cast 1 spell a turn. And casting 2+ spells a turn pretty much requires 4+ untapped lands. With 4 Blackcleave, 3 Ravine, and 23 lands only, in my experience, often I was stranded on 3 lands on turn 4 and stranded on 4 lands on turn 5. Thats backbreaking against some decks and simply loosing games. And I really don't want to play a value based deck which just looses to itself sometimes and therefore knocks down winpercentage numbers. Its really stupid.
Control matchups are generally hard for us, since most of our removal is either too situational or dead. You cannot play the value game like the control deck can. Thrun helps, but its only a singelton and you really can't count on a singleton to increase your winpercentage against a bad matchup. It is like it is.
Definitely, I feel that more often than not nowadays. Drawing the wrong half of a value based deck is so counterintuitive but sadly reality.
Have you tried Tireless Tracker?
What blue cantrips are you thinking about? Opt? Serum? Night's Whisper is a neat card to have I guess, gives immediate value for grindy games.