Welcome, Xaricore. Yeah, Knight of the Holy Nimbus has come up a few times. I personally haven't used him but he seems very reliable and especially useful in the face of increasing sweepers. If you're expecting lots of spot removal Deft Duelist is another card to consider if you're in blue.
My previous impression was that Mono-white was wonderfully painless and consistent, but that it couldn't keep up with the tempo afforded by Hierarch + CoCo. Missing the interaction afforded by U or B splashes also made unfair matchups harder. IMO the biggest strength to Mono-white was the ability to run Brave the Elements as an evasion spell / counterspell, but the evasion utility of BtE has taken a hit with Affinity and E-Tron at the top of the tier list. However, the current strength of Mirran Crusader and the printing of Glory-Bound Initiate might make it worth reviewing. Definitely could be a better meta call if you're up against a lot of Burn or Blood Moon and see fewer unfair decks. Would you be able to post your friend's list?
Welcome, Xaricore. Yeah, Knight of the Holy Nimbus has come up a few times. I personally haven't used him but he seems very reliable and especially useful in the face of increasing sweepers. If you're expecting lots of spot removal Deft Duelist is another card to consider if you're in blue.
My previous impression was that Mono-white was wonderfully painless and consistent, but that it couldn't keep up with the tempo afforded by Hierarch + CoCo. Missing the interaction afforded by U or B splashes also made unfair matchups harder. IMO the biggest strength to Mono-white was the ability to run Brave the Elements as an evasion spell / counterspell, but the evasion utility of BtE has taken a hit with Affinity and E-Tron at the top of the tier list. However, the current strength of Mirran Crusader and the printing of Glory-Bound Initiate might make it worth reviewing. Definitely could be a better meta call if you're up against a lot of Burn or Blood Moon and see fewer unfair decks. Would you be able to post your friend's list?
You make some very valid points indeed. I would definitely splash green into the deck for Noble Hierarch and more importantly Collected Company. I unfortunately do not have the list my friend has, I will soon enough in good time and will post for others to see, with my friends permission of course
It wasn't discussed in this thread or the one made before. Sunscourge Champion is one good sacrifice to Aristocrats anyway and fills the 3-drop hole.
I can imagine Zulaport Cuthtroat with Rally the Ancestors in such a shell, but that will belong to the crats topic.
Just a rough sketch, 1 Card is missing right now.
The best removal, pump and creatures.
Card advantage in inspector and confidant + Copter, beats and resilience through Champion's and Kytheon.
Strongest sideboard options in Stony, RiP, Collective brutality, Blessed Alliance, Fulminator Mage.
That's a neat direction. I would add 1-2x Vault of the Archangel to help push through crowded boards states and gain life advantage while racing against aggro. I also think that you have enough grindy card advantage between Bloodsoaked Champ, Inspector, and Bob, so you'll probably get more use out of running the full set of Crusader over Liliana (Maybe move her to the side?). Faster beats, more help against Shadow, and pairs well with deathtouch. You could possibly add 1x Gideon AoZ for a stronger topdeck, which I find the CoCo-less builds miss a bit.
10 cards dedicated to opponent's creatures is too many. I'd cut the PtE entirely because they don't go well with the couple Thalias. Thoughtseize is a better card in that slot.
You want the 4 caverns. If there's no Lili main and 4 Crusaders, I'd cut Swamp #2 for sure. Weak land.
Confidant and Inspector fill the same slots. They're midrange cards in a low curve aggro deck. Sthg's wrong there. The list is a draft, sure, and it goes in too many directions.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
In B/W Humans I like Student of Warfare in the 1-drop slot over Thraben Inspector (not necessary with bob) and Xathrid Necromancer as the curve-topper insurance against mass-removal. Gather the Townsfolk is also a decent option (good with Kytheon and Champion+lieutenant),
especially if Thalia is moved to the SB or kept to a minimum in the MD.
So I've been testing the last few nights with a hybrid list which has taken ques from several different Humans builds throughout this primer thread, along with a little experimentation. First, the list, then some thoughts:
So, all of the recent success of the Bant black builds got me wondering if I stopped too soon with my previous experimentation with Collected Company humans builds. Back then I tried 5 color with Anafenza, the Foremost and Mantis Rider, at which point I realized the mana was near impossible and split them off into their own builds, resulting in me favoring the two lists in the Primer. While I was very happy with the Mantis Rider build, I was not happy over the long term with the Anafenza, the Foremost build, despite it having a few things going for it. It had three main problems:
But there were 2 main things I very much liked:
- Anafenza, the Foremost is a house. She punches HARD. She naturally dodges bolt/anger. She "accidentally" hoses creatures-in-the-graveyard strategies. A deck that could clear the way for her and maybe another attacker would be great!
- Awesome sideboard options, almost hatebears-esque
So when I started seeing redless lists running Reflector Mage alongside black cards, I was facepalming and wondering why I hadn't tried that. I started doing some serious thinking about what I liked about the Mantis Rider deck, the tournament topping lists, and even just the lists I've seen float around here for a while to see if I could figure out an all around solid build. Here are the though processes behind the card choices:
Skyship Plunderer - One of the main weaknesses of the Abzan list was a lack of evasion. In the blackless build, I've been very happy with Kari Zev, Skyship Raider's ability to tax my opponent's blockers in both the early and late game, so I was looking for another 2 drop that could fill a similar role. I threw 2x Skyship Plunderer into that slot not expecting much, but I've been pleasantly surprised. Plucking away in the air, especially when backed up with lords, really helps the deck get off on the right foot. Especially if you can follow it up with a Thalia's Lieutenant, it can get out of hand very quickly with its counter adding ability. I've had a few games where it got up to a 5/4 because the opponent's removal was being stretched thin. In a deck with 4 Champs, 4 Lieutenant and 3 Anafenzas, there is rarely a lack of targets. The main thing I dislike about this card vs Kari Zev is the 1 toughness as opposed to Kari Zev's 3 toughness, which has led to some problems when facing cards like Forked Bolt.
Jace, Vryn's Prodigy - Another weakness of the Abzan build was the cost of the card advantage. Dark Confidant life loss and Eternal Witness clogging up the 3 drop slot just was not ideal. Meanwhile in the blackless build, Jace, Vryn's Prodigy and Duskwatch Recruiter were filling that role nicely. I'm running Jace in that slot now and I am quite pleased, but I may try Recruiter down the road as well.
Thalia, Heretic Cathar - This is a card I have simply avoided playing in modern and I'm not 100% sold yet. However, given the success of the recent builds running this card, I wanted to give it a shot. Playing one on turn two on the play can be an absolute hosing for the opponent, which is nice. It blends in nicely with the block clearing/taxing theme being spearheaded by Reflector Mage. There are even some good interactions against decks that like to throw in some big hasty Emrakuls and Primetimes. There's a lot to like.
Lyev Skyknight - Similar to Thalia, this is another card I've been down on in the past. However, I think it can fill a nice slot as a singleton role player. It helps with the evasion problem, it clears blockers and it can provide tempo against planeswalkers. I've been liking it as a one-of, though the 1 toughness is worrisome.
The rest of the cards are ones I have run and talked about in the past, so I won't get into those. Either way, I've been enjoying playing this list on MTGO and plan to do a league with it soon to see how it does. I definitely feel like it's up to par with the blackless Mantis Rider build.
Has anyone experimented with melding humans company with a knightfall package? Knight is such a powerful stand alone threat and just so happens to be a human. Being able to more reliably find gavony township or ghost quarter seems huge, and I love the idea of having access to kessig wolf run in a deck with champion of the perish. Maybe something like this:
One possible bet I'll work on is to splash black in the SB. It's near impossible to play a 5C maindeck but there's always a way to cut a utility land for the fifth source of colour we need.
I also want to go deeep with SSC + Channeler. It lets me try to cut the forest (that makes me keep awkward hands with Med Mage or Mantis) for a Steam Vents. Channeler helps the black splash too.
The main card I want to splash is Kambal : he's able to crush combos and Burn, which are tricky MUs overall.
So I'll give a feedback of the following list :
I like having Mirran Crusader in the side and KoTR has always been good in Modern and Legacy. The great thing about Humans is that it cab grab from Knight, Soldier, Warrior, Wizard, etc cards where as some tribals are more limited so the skies the limit on creativity and game play.
To be fair, KotR has always been bad in Modern until Retreat was printed, and the deck found its place only recently when the format got weakened by bans. The most common SB hate in Modern is RIP effects, so KotR unfortunately suffers collateral damage. That being said, the card is now playable. If she's the only creature that takes advantage of the graveyard in the deck, the opponents may not bring in GY hate, which is appreciable.
Back to my black splash. I don't believe it's worth it... it adds 4 more 3-drops that rarely takes the slots of other 3-drops, so my overall curve increases. Kambal surprisingly didn't help VS Burn as much as I expected. I gain 2 life and he dies. The legendary clause is a serious downside as well.
I still have better results with Auriok Champion in the aggro MUs.
About Sin Collector, I'm not thrilled either. It barely hits the things I hit with Mana Leak (PWs, creatures, enchantments, etc).
I am disappointment.
On the other hand, it comforts me with the red splash.
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To be fair, KotR has always been bad in Modern until Retreat was printed, and the deck found its place only recently when the format got weakened by bans. The most common SB hate in Modern is RIP effects, so KotR unfortunately suffers collateral damage. That being said, the card is now playable. If she's the only creature that takes advantage of the graveyard in the deck, the opponents may not bring in GY hate, which is appreciable.
I'm usually pretty jazzed if people bring GY hate in against me on Knightfall. It's very low impact - just shrinks Knight and maybe shuts off Scooze.
In your UWGr build, why are you not running Reflector Mage? Just value Skyknight's evasion over Mages improved tempo swing?
In general I've been surprised by the lack of discussion on the lists that did well on MTGO for a bit. Seems like people are really dedicated to Mantis Rider here.
I don't think players here neglect lists that perform online. I don't either, even though i'm playing Mantis variants. I actually feel pretty lonely, besides 2-3 regular posters here.
Many players on this topic play Coco-less versions, try Coco variants, and overall I'd say no list is completely satisfying. the ones we find on MTG Goldfish aren't either. It's pretty much all the same and everyone plays in his own room.
In my humble opinion, if Redless variants show up results on MTG Goldfish, it's because :
1- there's just a few guys that built those lists (and possibly copied eachother).
2- they certainly don't come over here to discuss them.
3- it costs money to switch colors.
4- it needs comprehensive testing to figure out which splash is best, which will only be done by a team of pros, not by freelance players who do occasional good perfs online.
5- the format is constantly changing right now (since Probe ban), which makes hard for such an archetype to definitively plant its roots.
In your UWGr build, why are you not running Reflector Mage? Just value Skyknight's evasion over Mages improved tempo swing?
The MUs where Ref Mage is arguably better are Vizier Company, Cheerios, Living End, Storm. In combo decks where a creature will be key actually. Otherwise, Lyev is better in all the fair MUs because it flies over blockers and delays more than creatures. So yes, in terms of tempo, Lyev is the more aggro card whereas Ref mage is the more defensive card (gives you more time to survive).
I'm usually pretty jazzed if people bring GY hate in against me on Knightfall. It's very low impact - just shrinks Knight and maybe shuts off Scooze.
In general I've been surprised by the lack of discussion on the lists that did well on MTGO for a bit. Seems like people are really dedicated to Mantis Rider here.
I just posted a list a couple of days ago that took some inspiration from the recent tournament lists. The problem is that those decks simply don't seem to be as fine tuned as many of the lists already discussed in here. 3 maindeck Sin Collector, for example, is more of a very specific "hope that I play against decks where it's good" type deal. And even then, idk if I'd do that. Seems bad. Some of the lists were even running 4x of EACH Thalia, which is simply an awful idea. For starters, they're legendary, and little Thalia is painful with a Collected Company in hand, which is why I have phased her out of my lists. This isn't to say that the lists are BAD, since they're obviously not, but I firmly believe the lists designed in this thread would perform just as well, if not better.
However, I did feel like it was worth taking some notes from those lists. I revisited the sideboard options that black provides, like Kambal and Sin Collector. I'm giving big Thalia a chance in both of my 4C CoCo variants as a 2-of as well. Also, I really think people underestimate Anafenza, the Foremost. She hoses dredge if you get her out before they go nuts, dodges Bolt/Anger by default and does a great job of growing the team. It's not uncommon for an early mana dork to slowly get pumped during a game while the opponent focuses on other creatures; those little bits of value add up quickly. She plays nice with Skyship Plunderer too. I also like that she can be played off of a basic Forest.
In your UWGr build, why are you not running Reflector Mage? Just value Skyknight's evasion over Mages improved tempo swing?
The MUs where Ref Mage is arguably better are Vizier Company, Cheerios, Living End, Storm. In combo decks where a creature will be key actually. Otherwise, Lyev is better in all the fair MUs because it flies over blockers and delays more than creatures. So yes, in terms of tempo, Lyev is the more aggro card whereas Ref mage is the more defensive card (gives you more time to survive).
I personally believe at this point that Reflector Mage is the #1 most important creature in the Collected Company humans lists. The difference between the straight Abzan list I used to play compared to the blue splashed version with Mage is night and day, mostly because of Mage. Yes, Lyev Skyknight does hit other non-creature permanents and it flies, but Reflector Mage does something better: he takes the creature OFF the battlefield, keeps it stuck in the opponent's hand for a turn (along with any other copies of the card they may be holding onto) and forces them to use their mana all over again. Skyknight seems more aggro, but Mage has the ability to put you so far ahead on board against fair opponents, that the lack of flying doesn't matter. For example, just a regular Company hit like Reflector Mage and Thalia's Lieutenant means that the opponent loses 1 creature and you gain 2 and pump your team. A 3 creature swing in a fair matchup is HUGE. If it were Lyev Skyknight instead, they don't lose anything except the ability to block for a turn and they can more easily keep up/catch up on board, especially if they can remove Lyev. Mage puts them behind, even if they can remove it.
This also means that Reflector Mage is much better at helping the deck come back from behind, which is always a huge plus in competitive Magic. It's especially effective against cards like Tasigur, the Golden Fang, Gurmag Angler and Reality Smasher. I do quite like my singleton Lyev Skyknight as a 5th psuedo Reflector Mage in the redless list, but it has never made the type of regular board impact that Mage does. It's also awful against cards that people want to bring in against us, like Forked Bolt, Collective Brutality, Izzet Staticaster and Kolaghan's Command, none of which hit Reflector Mage. It's also worthy to note that Mage is only a single +1/+1 counter from being Anger-proof, which is occasionally relevant.
TL;DR - I would personally never run a Humans CoCo list without a playset of Reflector Mage unless there is a REALLY good reason (like a new card, new tech or some sort of crazy metagame shift)
My last update was about an Abzan list I had been trying. Given the minimal space for non-Coco spells, I couldn't quite find a balance with the discard package and creature removal that felt satisfying. The more games played, the more I realized that while Dark Confidant was great, the deck just didn't need that kind of card advantage if you were running both Eternal Witness (I have come to my own personal conclusion that three is the right number; two doesn't hit often enough, but I don't want them clogging my hand) and a set of Collected Company. This has been pointed out in this thread, I just don't remember who; you were right.
Threat density was also an issue. The CoCos were still good, to be certain, but when I didn't draw those I might see two removal spells, a discard spell, and two mediocre creatures. That obviously isn't enough pressure for a deck trying to abuse synergies in a format filled with efficient spot removal. Lesson learned.
I'm still not horribly impressed with Thalia, Heretic Cathar. She hasn't been horrible, by any stretch, just not overly impressive. Much, much better on the play. Still on the radar, though. Thalia, Guardian of Thraben was missed too much. The card absolutely punishes weak keeps and mulligans so well. She's back in. To compensate, we bring Avacyn's Pilgrim back into the mix. I want to maximize my chances of playing a turn 2 three-drop and turn 3 CoCo. I was losing some to Lingering Souls chump patrol, hence the red splash for Kessig Wolf Run.
All in all, it's a pretty typical list, which is probably a good thing. It is focused and consistent, which is more than can be said of the Abzan experiment I was running. Fracturing Gust is in the board because I really don't like hexproof (I'm well aware that it isn't exactly prevalent in the metagame currently). If I live long enough to cast it against Robots it's pretty funny too, for me at least. Ethersworn Canonist is a house against some of the unfair decks humans tend to struggle with (Storm, Living End, Ad Nauseam, etc). I've been told Planeswalkers are good against control. I know they're good against the midrange decks, and that's good enough for me. That, and I want to unlock the "Jump a Crusader" achievement.
I don't sweat the burn matchup much; either they roast us dead or we get a bit lucky and beat them. If they are an inexperienced burn pilot, this is much more likely. It's also one of the more play/draw dependent matchups, which is to be expected. CoCo is really good against Eidolon of the Great Revel. Beating them on board is the only real shot we have, but that happens a bit more often than expected. This is almost certainly due to the fact that burn just fizzles out occasionally more than anything we are doing. That's just how burn goes.
Tron is still pretty rough if we don't draw Ghost Quarter and post-board Stony Silence - neither of which matter at all if you don't present a fast clock. I'm tempted to try Blood Moon in the board, but haven't yet because I have morals. Stupid morals.
Here's where I am at currently, which is more of an update to the list I posted on this thread a couple of months ago:
Mirran Crusader + Kessig Wolf Run can steal games. The extra mana dorks help fuel this. Gavony Township is still too good to cut. Six colorless lands is being too greedy, so three Ghost Quarter is where we end up. Cavern of Souls doesn't feel as important as fetchlands due to KotR. Knight of the Reliquary came back into my life recently after several Pyroclasm, Anger of the Gods, and Conflagrate blowouts. Elspeth, Knight-Errant has better synergy with the deck, being able to send the heavy hitters over the top of a clogged ground. Gideon, Ally of Zendikar closes out games on its' own much faster on a clear board. A split seemed like the best choice.
If I were to move 2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar back into the main, I would cut a Mirran Crusader and move one Path to Exile to the sideboard, likely cutting the Bojuka Bog (it is the 75th card, so to speak). If I were to add 2 Blood Moon to the sideboard (unlikely, but Hey, Free Wins!), I would cut the Bojuka Bog and one Ethersworn Canonist.
As always, I appreciate the feedback.
- If you don't wanna run Blood Moon because you're not a jerk, just run Magus of the Moon instead! It's even a Human!
- I love me some Elspeth, Knight-Errant. I used to run a mono white Knight tribal deck where I got to jump quite a few Mirran Crusaders to victory. Fun times.
- I've thought about Ethersworn Canonist a few times, but I just haven't pulled the trigger. I'd love to hear some detailed feedback on it.
- Duskwatch Recruiter is great against control as well. When it gets to the late game and they think they've depleted your resources, you can cast it (uncounterable maybe) and sink a bunch of mana into getting creatures.
- Have you thought about and/or tried Renegade Rallier? With all the fetches, GQ, and KoTR, it could be pretty reliable.
Fracturing Gust is in the board because I really don't like hexproof (I'm well aware that it isn't exactly prevalent in the metagame currently). If I live long enough to cast it against Robots it's pretty funny too, for me at least
The card makes total sense when you expect GW Auras, Affi and Prison decks being a bit more common than usual. And now is a perfect time for such decks to get more popularity. Feel no shame playing it !
Ethersworn Canonist is a house against some of the unfair decks humans tend to struggle with (Storm, Living End, Ad Nauseam, etc).
I can tell you Storm will bring in Lightning Bolt / Flame Slash / Dismember / Path to Exile from the SBs. Either to take out Med Mage, Thalia V1/V2, or in this case, Canonist. Ad Naus have various SB options (Drown in Sorrow, Slaughter Pact maindeck, Echoing Truth, etc...) but their answers are in very limited numbers, so I'd say we're on par with Canonist.
That being said, I wish Eidolon of Rhetoric was a Human, because it's exactly what we need VS Delver, Burn, and storm decks (used to be an all-star in Pod VS Jeskai Ascendancy). I think Canonist suffers the same issue as Aegis of the Gods : it's a creature and it's weak to any spot removal spell.
I think a better (if not the best) answer to Storm, Burn, Cheerios, Lantern and Ad Naus altogether is Leyline of Sanctity. In those MUs, we keep our removal for the few creatures that matter anyway, and we can bring Staticaster / Pontiff for Empty the Warrens. It's a card to keep in mind.
I'm tempted to try Blood Moon in the board, but haven't yet because I have morals. Stupid morals.
@Kingcars : I think one good point in favor of Ref Mage is that Infect has been on a serious backfoot since the Probe ban, so Lyev loses one of its prime defensive role (like 9% of the perfs used to belong to Infect). Since neither Delver or Spirits (or other minor decks) show off, Affi becomes the only deck threatening in the sky.
Add to that the rise of Eldrazi Tron that plays 4 Walking Ballistas, and suddenly Lyev looks less appealing. These are real arguments to me.
It's more of a meta call than a straight comparison between what both cards do. In a vacuum, they're both efficient. It's not by playing 1 copy that you see the power of the card. Chaining them is unbeatable in fair MUs as well.
Being able to stop an activation from Nahiri, Lili or any PW at this point is a way to come back from behind, and Ref Mage doesn't help there (it doesn't help against control decks which are currently on the rise)...
Also, literally, people don't bring the cards you mention against us, it's already in their main decks for the most part.
I'm unsure whether Ref mage is the most important card in the deck, but it emphasizes the lack of interaction in the non-blue variants for sure.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
My previous impression was that Mono-white was wonderfully painless and consistent, but that it couldn't keep up with the tempo afforded by Hierarch + CoCo. Missing the interaction afforded by U or B splashes also made unfair matchups harder. IMO the biggest strength to Mono-white was the ability to run Brave the Elements as an evasion spell / counterspell, but the evasion utility of BtE has taken a hit with Affinity and E-Tron at the top of the tier list. However, the current strength of Mirran Crusader and the printing of Glory-Bound Initiate might make it worth reviewing. Definitely could be a better meta call if you're up against a lot of Burn or Blood Moon and see fewer unfair decks. Would you be able to post your friend's list?
You make some very valid points indeed. I would definitely splash green into the deck for Noble Hierarch and more importantly Collected Company. I unfortunately do not have the list my friend has, I will soon enough in good time and will post for others to see, with my friends permission of course
Looks like a promising candidate for RW Aggro Humans.
I got the idea af a more Aristocrat-Style Human Deck.
Doomed Traveler, Cartel Aristocrat along Falkenrath Aristocrat.
Is there a chance of getting legs with this approach?
Green @ it's best
I can imagine Zulaport Cuthtroat with Rally the Ancestors in such a shell, but that will belong to the crats topic.
Honored Crop-Captain may make the cut over Honor of the Pure, for the players who play the card. It's a bad lord though.
3 marsh flats
2 godless shrine
2 swamp
2 plains
3 flooded strand
2 polluted delta
2 cavern of souls
4 champion of the parish
4 bloodsoaked champion
2 kytheon, hero of akros
4 dark confidant
4 thalia's lieutenant
2 thalia, guardian of thraben
2 mirran crusader
2 liliana, defiant necromancer
2 zealous persecution
4 path to exile
4 fatal push
Just a rough sketch, 1 Card is missing right now.
The best removal, pump and creatures.
Card advantage in inspector and confidant + Copter, beats and resilience through Champion's and Kytheon.
Strongest sideboard options in Stony, RiP, Collective brutality, Blessed Alliance, Fulminator Mage.
Green @ it's best
You want the 4 caverns. If there's no Lili main and 4 Crusaders, I'd cut Swamp #2 for sure. Weak land.
Confidant and Inspector fill the same slots. They're midrange cards in a low curve aggro deck. Sthg's wrong there. The list is a draft, sure, and it goes in too many directions.
Gather the Townsfolk is also a decent option (good with Kytheon and Champion+lieutenant),
especially if Thalia is moved to the SB or kept to a minimum in the MD.
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
3 Mayor of Avabruck
2 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
2 Skyship Plunderer
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Lyev Skyknight
3 Anafenza, the Foremost
4 Reflector Mage
Spells (8)
4 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
1 Breeding Pool
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Flooded Strand
1 Forest
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Windswept Heath
1 Godless Shrine
1 Stomping Ground
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Sin Collector
1 Rest in Peace
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 War Priest of Thune
2 Meddling Mage
2 Kambal, Consul of Allocation
1 Arashin Cleric
So, all of the recent success of the Bant black builds got me wondering if I stopped too soon with my previous experimentation with Collected Company humans builds. Back then I tried 5 color with Anafenza, the Foremost and Mantis Rider, at which point I realized the mana was near impossible and split them off into their own builds, resulting in me favoring the two lists in the Primer. While I was very happy with the Mantis Rider build, I was not happy over the long term with the Anafenza, the Foremost build, despite it having a few things going for it. It had three main problems:
- It severely lacked the evasion provided by Mantis Rider (and in my particular build, Kari Zev, Skyship Raider)
- Dark Confidant's life cost often proved to be too costly and Eternal Witness often seemed slow for a 3 drop.
- It suffered from a lack of tempo and block clearing provided by Reflector Mage.
But there were 2 main things I very much liked:
- Anafenza, the Foremost is a house. She punches HARD. She naturally dodges bolt/anger. She "accidentally" hoses creatures-in-the-graveyard strategies. A deck that could clear the way for her and maybe another attacker would be great!
- Awesome sideboard options, almost hatebears-esque
So when I started seeing redless lists running Reflector Mage alongside black cards, I was facepalming and wondering why I hadn't tried that. I started doing some serious thinking about what I liked about the Mantis Rider deck, the tournament topping lists, and even just the lists I've seen float around here for a while to see if I could figure out an all around solid build. Here are the though processes behind the card choices:
Skyship Plunderer - One of the main weaknesses of the Abzan list was a lack of evasion. In the blackless build, I've been very happy with Kari Zev, Skyship Raider's ability to tax my opponent's blockers in both the early and late game, so I was looking for another 2 drop that could fill a similar role. I threw 2x Skyship Plunderer into that slot not expecting much, but I've been pleasantly surprised. Plucking away in the air, especially when backed up with lords, really helps the deck get off on the right foot. Especially if you can follow it up with a Thalia's Lieutenant, it can get out of hand very quickly with its counter adding ability. I've had a few games where it got up to a 5/4 because the opponent's removal was being stretched thin. In a deck with 4 Champs, 4 Lieutenant and 3 Anafenzas, there is rarely a lack of targets. The main thing I dislike about this card vs Kari Zev is the 1 toughness as opposed to Kari Zev's 3 toughness, which has led to some problems when facing cards like Forked Bolt.
Jace, Vryn's Prodigy - Another weakness of the Abzan build was the cost of the card advantage. Dark Confidant life loss and Eternal Witness clogging up the 3 drop slot just was not ideal. Meanwhile in the blackless build, Jace, Vryn's Prodigy and Duskwatch Recruiter were filling that role nicely. I'm running Jace in that slot now and I am quite pleased, but I may try Recruiter down the road as well.
Thalia, Heretic Cathar - This is a card I have simply avoided playing in modern and I'm not 100% sold yet. However, given the success of the recent builds running this card, I wanted to give it a shot. Playing one on turn two on the play can be an absolute hosing for the opponent, which is nice. It blends in nicely with the block clearing/taxing theme being spearheaded by Reflector Mage. There are even some good interactions against decks that like to throw in some big hasty Emrakuls and Primetimes. There's a lot to like.
Lyev Skyknight - Similar to Thalia, this is another card I've been down on in the past. However, I think it can fill a nice slot as a singleton role player. It helps with the evasion problem, it clears blockers and it can provide tempo against planeswalkers. I've been liking it as a one-of, though the 1 toughness is worrisome.
The rest of the cards are ones I have run and talked about in the past, so I won't get into those. Either way, I've been enjoying playing this list on MTGO and plan to do a league with it soon to see how it does. I definitely feel like it's up to par with the blackless Mantis Rider build.
3 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Champion of the Perish
3 Glory-Bound Initiate
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Reflector Mage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Path to Exile
4 Collected Company
2 Retreat to Coralhelm
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Gavony Township
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Sejiri Steppe
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Breeding Pool
2 Temple Garden
1 Stomping Ground
2 Forest
1 Plains
3 Izzet Staticaster
3 Mirran Crusader
3 Lone Missionary
3 Reclamation Sage
3 Rest in Peace
I also want to go deeep with SSC + Channeler. It lets me try to cut the forest (that makes me keep awkward hands with Med Mage or Mantis) for a Steam Vents. Channeler helps the black splash too.
The main card I want to splash is Kambal : he's able to crush combos and Burn, which are tricky MUs overall.
So I'll give a feedback of the following list :
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
4 Channeler Initiate
4 Meddling Mage
4 Lyev Skyknight
4 Mantis Rider
3 Sunscourge Champion
4 Coco
21 Lands
2 Sin Collector
2 Izzet Staticaster
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Hurkyl's Recall
To be fair, KotR has always been bad in Modern until Retreat was printed, and the deck found its place only recently when the format got weakened by bans. The most common SB hate in Modern is RIP effects, so KotR unfortunately suffers collateral damage. That being said, the card is now playable. If she's the only creature that takes advantage of the graveyard in the deck, the opponents may not bring in GY hate, which is appreciable.
Back to my black splash. I don't believe it's worth it... it adds 4 more 3-drops that rarely takes the slots of other 3-drops, so my overall curve increases. Kambal surprisingly didn't help VS Burn as much as I expected. I gain 2 life and he dies. The legendary clause is a serious downside as well.
I still have better results with Auriok Champion in the aggro MUs.
About Sin Collector, I'm not thrilled either. It barely hits the things I hit with Mana Leak (PWs, creatures, enchantments, etc).
I am disappointment.
On the other hand, it comforts me with the red splash.
I'm usually pretty jazzed if people bring GY hate in against me on Knightfall. It's very low impact - just shrinks Knight and maybe shuts off Scooze.
In your UWGr build, why are you not running Reflector Mage? Just value Skyknight's evasion over Mages improved tempo swing?
In general I've been surprised by the lack of discussion on the lists that did well on MTGO for a bit. Seems like people are really dedicated to Mantis Rider here.
Many players on this topic play Coco-less versions, try Coco variants, and overall I'd say no list is completely satisfying. the ones we find on MTG Goldfish aren't either. It's pretty much all the same and everyone plays in his own room.
In my humble opinion, if Redless variants show up results on MTG Goldfish, it's because :
1- there's just a few guys that built those lists (and possibly copied eachother).
2- they certainly don't come over here to discuss them.
3- it costs money to switch colors.
4- it needs comprehensive testing to figure out which splash is best, which will only be done by a team of pros, not by freelance players who do occasional good perfs online.
5- the format is constantly changing right now (since Probe ban), which makes hard for such an archetype to definitively plant its roots.
The MUs where Ref Mage is arguably better are Vizier Company, Cheerios, Living End, Storm. In combo decks where a creature will be key actually. Otherwise, Lyev is better in all the fair MUs because it flies over blockers and delays more than creatures. So yes, in terms of tempo, Lyev is the more aggro card whereas Ref mage is the more defensive card (gives you more time to survive).
And Retreat to Coralhelm combo, Eternal Witness, Voice of Resurgence, and potential other cards where GY matters...
I just posted a list a couple of days ago that took some inspiration from the recent tournament lists. The problem is that those decks simply don't seem to be as fine tuned as many of the lists already discussed in here. 3 maindeck Sin Collector, for example, is more of a very specific "hope that I play against decks where it's good" type deal. And even then, idk if I'd do that. Seems bad. Some of the lists were even running 4x of EACH Thalia, which is simply an awful idea. For starters, they're legendary, and little Thalia is painful with a Collected Company in hand, which is why I have phased her out of my lists. This isn't to say that the lists are BAD, since they're obviously not, but I firmly believe the lists designed in this thread would perform just as well, if not better.
However, I did feel like it was worth taking some notes from those lists. I revisited the sideboard options that black provides, like Kambal and Sin Collector. I'm giving big Thalia a chance in both of my 4C CoCo variants as a 2-of as well. Also, I really think people underestimate Anafenza, the Foremost. She hoses dredge if you get her out before they go nuts, dodges Bolt/Anger by default and does a great job of growing the team. It's not uncommon for an early mana dork to slowly get pumped during a game while the opponent focuses on other creatures; those little bits of value add up quickly. She plays nice with Skyship Plunderer too. I also like that she can be played off of a basic Forest.
I personally believe at this point that Reflector Mage is the #1 most important creature in the Collected Company humans lists. The difference between the straight Abzan list I used to play compared to the blue splashed version with Mage is night and day, mostly because of Mage. Yes, Lyev Skyknight does hit other non-creature permanents and it flies, but Reflector Mage does something better: he takes the creature OFF the battlefield, keeps it stuck in the opponent's hand for a turn (along with any other copies of the card they may be holding onto) and forces them to use their mana all over again. Skyknight seems more aggro, but Mage has the ability to put you so far ahead on board against fair opponents, that the lack of flying doesn't matter. For example, just a regular Company hit like Reflector Mage and Thalia's Lieutenant means that the opponent loses 1 creature and you gain 2 and pump your team. A 3 creature swing in a fair matchup is HUGE. If it were Lyev Skyknight instead, they don't lose anything except the ability to block for a turn and they can more easily keep up/catch up on board, especially if they can remove Lyev. Mage puts them behind, even if they can remove it.
This also means that Reflector Mage is much better at helping the deck come back from behind, which is always a huge plus in competitive Magic. It's especially effective against cards like Tasigur, the Golden Fang, Gurmag Angler and Reality Smasher. I do quite like my singleton Lyev Skyknight as a 5th psuedo Reflector Mage in the redless list, but it has never made the type of regular board impact that Mage does. It's also awful against cards that people want to bring in against us, like Forked Bolt, Collective Brutality, Izzet Staticaster and Kolaghan's Command, none of which hit Reflector Mage. It's also worthy to note that Mage is only a single +1/+1 counter from being Anger-proof, which is occasionally relevant.
TL;DR - I would personally never run a Humans CoCo list without a playset of Reflector Mage unless there is a REALLY good reason (like a new card, new tech or some sort of crazy metagame shift)
Threat density was also an issue. The CoCos were still good, to be certain, but when I didn't draw those I might see two removal spells, a discard spell, and two mediocre creatures. That obviously isn't enough pressure for a deck trying to abuse synergies in a format filled with efficient spot removal. Lesson learned.
I'm still not horribly impressed with Thalia, Heretic Cathar. She hasn't been horrible, by any stretch, just not overly impressive. Much, much better on the play. Still on the radar, though. Thalia, Guardian of Thraben was missed too much. The card absolutely punishes weak keeps and mulligans so well. She's back in. To compensate, we bring Avacyn's Pilgrim back into the mix. I want to maximize my chances of playing a turn 2 three-drop and turn 3 CoCo. I was losing some to Lingering Souls chump patrol, hence the red splash for Kessig Wolf Run.
All in all, it's a pretty typical list, which is probably a good thing. It is focused and consistent, which is more than can be said of the Abzan experiment I was running.
Fracturing Gust is in the board because I really don't like hexproof (I'm well aware that it isn't exactly prevalent in the metagame currently). If I live long enough to cast it against Robots it's pretty funny too, for me at least. Ethersworn Canonist is a house against some of the unfair decks humans tend to struggle with (Storm, Living End, Ad Nauseam, etc). I've been told Planeswalkers are good against control. I know they're good against the midrange decks, and that's good enough for me. That, and I want to unlock the "Jump a Crusader" achievement.
I don't sweat the burn matchup much; either they roast us dead or we get a bit lucky and beat them. If they are an inexperienced burn pilot, this is much more likely. It's also one of the more play/draw dependent matchups, which is to be expected. CoCo is really good against Eidolon of the Great Revel. Beating them on board is the only real shot we have, but that happens a bit more often than expected. This is almost certainly due to the fact that burn just fizzles out occasionally more than anything we are doing. That's just how burn goes.
Tron is still pretty rough if we don't draw Ghost Quarter and post-board Stony Silence - neither of which matter at all if you don't present a fast clock. I'm tempted to try Blood Moon in the board, but haven't yet because I have morals. Stupid morals.
Here's where I am at currently, which is more of an update to the list I posted on this thread a couple of months ago:
4 Avacyn's Pilgrim
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Noble Heirarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Thalia's Lieutenant
3 Eternal Witness
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mirran Crusader
Spells
4 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
3 Forest
2 Plains
3 Marsh Flats
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Temple Garden
3 Ghost Quarter
1 Gavony Township
1 Kessig Wolf Run
2 Rest in Peace
3 Stony Silence
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Fracturing Gust
2 Auriok Champion
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Bojuka Bog
Knight of the Reliquary came back into my life recently after several Pyroclasm, Anger of the Gods, and Conflagrate blowouts.
Elspeth, Knight-Errant has better synergy with the deck, being able to send the heavy hitters over the top of a clogged ground. Gideon, Ally of Zendikar closes out games on its' own much faster on a clear board. A split seemed like the best choice.
If I were to move 2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar back into the main, I would cut a Mirran Crusader and move one Path to Exile to the sideboard, likely cutting the Bojuka Bog (it is the 75th card, so to speak). If I were to add 2 Blood Moon to the sideboard (unlikely, but Hey, Free Wins!), I would cut the Bojuka Bog and one Ethersworn Canonist.
As always, I appreciate the feedback.
- I love me some Elspeth, Knight-Errant. I used to run a mono white Knight tribal deck where I got to jump quite a few Mirran Crusaders to victory. Fun times.
- I've thought about Ethersworn Canonist a few times, but I just haven't pulled the trigger. I'd love to hear some detailed feedback on it.
- Duskwatch Recruiter is great against control as well. When it gets to the late game and they think they've depleted your resources, you can cast it (uncounterable maybe) and sink a bunch of mana into getting creatures.
- Have you thought about and/or tried Renegade Rallier? With all the fetches, GQ, and KoTR, it could be pretty reliable.
The card makes total sense when you expect GW Auras, Affi and Prison decks being a bit more common than usual. And now is a perfect time for such decks to get more popularity. Feel no shame playing it !
I can tell you Storm will bring in Lightning Bolt / Flame Slash / Dismember / Path to Exile from the SBs. Either to take out Med Mage, Thalia V1/V2, or in this case, Canonist. Ad Naus have various SB options (Drown in Sorrow, Slaughter Pact maindeck, Echoing Truth, etc...) but their answers are in very limited numbers, so I'd say we're on par with Canonist.
That being said, I wish Eidolon of Rhetoric was a Human, because it's exactly what we need VS Delver, Burn, and storm decks (used to be an all-star in Pod VS Jeskai Ascendancy). I think Canonist suffers the same issue as Aegis of the Gods : it's a creature and it's weak to any spot removal spell.
I think a better (if not the best) answer to Storm, Burn, Cheerios, Lantern and Ad Naus altogether is Leyline of Sanctity. In those MUs, we keep our removal for the few creatures that matter anyway, and we can bring Staticaster / Pontiff for Empty the Warrens. It's a card to keep in mind.
@Kingcars : I think one good point in favor of Ref Mage is that Infect has been on a serious backfoot since the Probe ban, so Lyev loses one of its prime defensive role (like 9% of the perfs used to belong to Infect). Since neither Delver or Spirits (or other minor decks) show off, Affi becomes the only deck threatening in the sky.
Add to that the rise of Eldrazi Tron that plays 4 Walking Ballistas, and suddenly Lyev looks less appealing. These are real arguments to me.
It's more of a meta call than a straight comparison between what both cards do. In a vacuum, they're both efficient. It's not by playing 1 copy that you see the power of the card. Chaining them is unbeatable in fair MUs as well.
Being able to stop an activation from Nahiri, Lili or any PW at this point is a way to come back from behind, and Ref Mage doesn't help there (it doesn't help against control decks which are currently on the rise)...
Also, literally, people don't bring the cards you mention against us, it's already in their main decks for the most part.
I'm unsure whether Ref mage is the most important card in the deck, but it emphasizes the lack of interaction in the non-blue variants for sure.