Again, Pithing Needle do nothing on mana acceleration of Ad Nauseam, it's mana abilities.
Spellskite do nothing too, Lab Maniac kill.
Chalice and TKS is the only solution vs AD
I don't think that Lodestone Golem comes down early enough (unless you run mana acceleration like SSG) to do anything against combo decks, Thorn of Amethyst might be more reasonable but also seems rather weak as it it doesn't present any pressure (like Thalia in D&T).
Witchbane Orb comes down too late imho, turn 4 without mana acceleration (or turn 3 Tron) doesn't seem good enough against decks that can win on turn 4.
@Ageless127 : Ad Nauseam side Slaughter Pact vs Spellskite, not Echoing Truth.
Ad Nauseam Alway keep 1 or 2 Pact of negation for the removal when he go for the lab kill.
As ad nauseam player the key for beat this deck is to mulligan aggressively for Chalice and TKS.
Side Pithing Needle, name Lightning Storm (Requires AD to make the Lab maniac kill, cost one more mana and sorcery speed)
Side Ratchet Bomb, Karn, Surgical Extraction (land taxe is good vs AD + And shuffle his library after all his scry really good !) and Warping Wail for counter Sleight and Serum.
Also about the manlands - I think they could be ok, but if the game gets to topdeck mode for example against some BGx deck or control, I would much rather have Sea Gate - that land is one of the reasons why this deck is so good against midrange/control
Thanks for bringing up the man lands. I agree SGW can be better except when you activate it and pull another land off the top deck. This happens, I've done it before. With a Map on board or if you draw a Map you could fetch a man-land and pop it on the table for a blocker if needed the next opponent turn. Again I think Buried Ruin may be a better selection in the slot I'm considering. Right now there isn't the perfect colorless man-land out there that fits our deck. I'm hoping it comes some day, but until then I'm exploring other outlets.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
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I havs been lurking this forum for the last few days and am looking at possibly building this deck. I was wondering what do you all feel is better; walking balista or hangarback walker, and how does this deck fair versus esper control?
Wait, what? for combo why are we taking out Pithing Needle it kills Nahiri, Kiki, A bit of affinity, Most of ad nauseam, meaning its mana acceleration, and others like Aether Vile. Its an all around hate card
Nahiri decks have access to Wear // Tear (and many, many other artifact hate), and they WILL bring their artifact hate against a tron deck running Chalice of the Void.
Kiki decks run Reclamation Sage and Qasali Pridemage in the main (meaning they don't even need to use a SB slot for this, hell even then they have 1/2 extra slots for these kind of cards as well), in addition they can tutor them with Chord or Evolution.
It doesn't really do anything against affinity, which is not a bad MU and doesn't require PN to be sided in.
It stops nothing except Lightning Storm from Ad Nauseam, which they don't care about since they can go Labman + Visions and win.
Aether Vial is not such a scary card, we don't run counterspells anyway. We have better things to bring against Merfolk and D&T.
I don't think that Lodestone Golem comes down early enough (unless you run mana acceleration like SSG) to do anything against combo decks, Thorn of Amethyst might be more reasonable but also seems rather weak as it it doesn't present any pressure (like Thalia in D&T).
Yeah you make a good point, it comes down on T4 anyway most of the times, so the best should be 3/4 Thorns + Chalices as the main pieces of hate + TKS to take their outs from their hand and lock em out of the game.
It's worth noting that spellskite is great against Ad Nauseum because it can defend your hate pieces against their 1-of echoing truth. I also leave a single dismember against them. Anyway, I've found the Ad Nauseum matchup to be great but the RG valakut matchup to be horrible. I guess it's differences in luck and build.
I really have to find some space in my SB for surgicals, they're great against tron and valakut because of our ghost quarters.
Ad Nauseam is not a great MU. If they stumble and you have good mana you can run away with the game, but if they have the combo on T4 with 1 Mana rock you're dead and you can't do anything about it.
Spellskite is not good vs Ad Nauseam, it doesn't even stop the kill from Lightning Storm (they can let your spellskite activations resolve, discard another land, let your spellskite resolve again and so on until you have no more life to pay for it). And, yes, as said by others, they have to side in Slaughter Pact in the MU so they will have access to it, should it represent a problem. Remember they have access to Tolaria West to tutor for pacts as well.
Surgical is meh against Ad Nauseam, and great vs Valakut with GQ or Map.
Ad Nauseam is the one combo deck we can interact the least, so if you expect it to be present and -more importantly- doing well in your meta, you should start looking at 3/4 Thorns of Amethysts in your board. They are not just good against AN, they are great vs Control, other combo decks and regular Tron.
Titan Scapeshift allows us to interact a bit more. We have Warping Wail for their sorcery speed ramp spells, their Angers for value (kiling 1+ Reshapers) and it also counters Scapeshift, which is 50% of their wincons. Paradoxically, Chalice on 2 is great in this MU, as it counters 14 ramp spells on its own, but then again it comes down most of the times too late (unless T3 tron on the play), I said paradoxically because it counters Warping Wail and lets scapeshift resolve uncontested. Thorns seem pretty good for the MU in addition to Wails, Chalices and TKS.
Titan Breach is harder for us as it comes down mostly a turn earlier and doesn't rely on resolving ramp or sorceries that much. They play Summoner's Pact + Through the Breach using/abusing Simian Spirit Guide. So there are T3 plays that don't require them to cast a single spell before going off. Now, that is very scary. Again, Thorn of Amethyst makes this impossible until hitting 7 mana, which will require to cast at least 2 ramp spells (up to 3/4 ramp spells if they don't draw monkeys and/or stumble in land-drops), which will cost 1 more and will subsequently give you 2+ extra turns to tell the story.
Thorn of Amethyst doesn't win you the game, but it makes it so you can play more magic and have an actual shot at pressuring the combo decks and punishing them for not playing creatures. Time you can use to resolve an Ulamog of Kozilek and ride it to victory, or multiple Smashers/Endbringers to close it fast. Time this deck doesn't have against these decks, which are a big portion of the metagame.
I recently finished this deck before Christmas and I do enjoy it but I am struggling with consistency. I know a lot of it comes down to needing more time with the deck and thinking about mulliganing properly and lines of play instead of just racing to 20 or trying to combo off quickly. I hate having Tron online but getting mana screwed to the point that by the time I can get a threat on board it's already over. I'm running a stock list minus Hangarback Walker and Walking Ballista but I am going to add the latter to my list and drop some mainboard Spatial Contortion to the sideboard. I may also switch out Gemstone Caverns for Sanctum of Ugin. I have to admit that turn 2 Thought-Knot Seer or turn 3 Karn Liberated feels dirty in a great way.
I have to admit that turn 2 Thought-Knot Seer or turn 3 Karn Liberated feels dirty in a great way.
With 3 Gemstone Caverns and 4 SSG you can on rare occasions pull off a turn one TKS on the play or draw. I've managed both and its downright filthy. It happens RARELY though. Probably about 3% of games or less so don't think it will be a regular occurrence. I even managed a turn 1 Smasher once on the draw, that one is probably 1% of games or less. Turn 2 does happen slightly more frequently. You are making me want to stay with my ramp package.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
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Speaking of SB plan vs. Ad Nauseam (and other combo decks), with my ramp package, which would be better for the time being Lodestone Golem or Witchbane Orb? I'm leaning Orb if the situation arises. Both are 4 cmc spells that I could potentially play by turn 3. Yes I know it wouldn't be as good as Thorn of Amethyst but as of right now there isn't a lot of combo in my meta. Of course that could change.
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
How many Dismember are you running in the 75 and how much aggro is in your meta?
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Playing since 1994: Currently MAGS (HomeBrew),Standard & Pauper (Pioneer and Modern are degenerate trash formats)
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Aggro decks are usually filled with smaller creatures so the 3 Spatial Contortions are really good, you pair them up with Chalices, All is Dust, double batterskull, 1 Collar and Spellskites or Ballistas and should be pretty good even without dismembers. We don't suffer that much from aggro as we have a lot to bring in for the early development and a lot of big stuff to deal with the leftovers.
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In Lorwyn's brief evenings, the sun pauses at the horizon long enough for a certain species of violet to bloom with the fragrance of mischief.
Ok 2 ideas. One, we could actually splash black. What gets me is our lack of removal. Primeval Titan and Wurmcoil Engine don't die to dismember. We could use some of our flex land slots for Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth and use Go for the Throat and Doom Blade Witch covers almost everything in modern except for Vault Skirge Which we can kill with Warping Wail and Endbringer. The maps can help us get our tombs of yawgmoth get them and we would use one swamp if they path or ghost quarter us.
Second,
What about Basilisk Collar in the main as a one of instead of a Batterskull which would go in the sideboard instead of the Basilisk Collar. On Endbringer, he oneshots stuff TWICE
Speaking of SB plan vs. Ad Nauseam (and other combo decks), with my ramp package, which would be better for the time being Lodestone Golem or Witchbane Orb? I'm leaning Orb if the situation arises. Both are 4 cmc spells that I could potentially play by turn 3. Yes I know it wouldn't be as good as Thorn of Amethyst but as of right now there isn't a lot of combo in my meta. Of course that could change.
I wouldn't use any of them, Witchbane Orb does nothing if they go with Laboratory Maniac and both are generally too slow.
Chalice on 1 (or on 0 if you see Lotus Bloom) and some pressure is what you need.
Spellskite do nothing too, Lab Maniac kill.
Chalice and TKS is the only solution vs AD
RG Titan Scapeshift GR
UBWAd Nauseam WBU
CEldrazi TronC
Ad Nauseam Alway keep 1 or 2 Pact of negation for the removal when he go for the lab kill.
As ad nauseam player the key for beat this deck is to mulligan aggressively for Chalice and TKS.
Side Pithing Needle, name Lightning Storm (Requires AD to make the Lab maniac kill, cost one more mana and sorcery speed)
Side Ratchet Bomb, Karn, Surgical Extraction (land taxe is good vs AD + And shuffle his library after all his scry really good !) and Warping Wail for counter Sleight and Serum.
RG Titan Scapeshift GR
UBWAd Nauseam WBU
CEldrazi TronC
As a player Titanshift, Pithing Needle hurt a lot if it arrives early, name : Sakura-Tribe Elder, Khalni Heart Expedition, Wooded Foothills or Windswept Heath
The best still Ghost Quarter + Surgical Extraction or T3 Karn
RG Titan Scapeshift GR
UBWAd Nauseam WBU
CEldrazi TronC
Thanks for bringing up the man lands. I agree SGW can be better except when you activate it and pull another land off the top deck. This happens, I've done it before. With a Map on board or if you draw a Map you could fetch a man-land and pop it on the table for a blocker if needed the next opponent turn. Again I think Buried Ruin may be a better selection in the slot I'm considering. Right now there isn't the perfect colorless man-land out there that fits our deck. I'm hoping it comes some day, but until then I'm exploring other outlets.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Nahiri decks have access to Wear // Tear (and many, many other artifact hate), and they WILL bring their artifact hate against a tron deck running Chalice of the Void.
Kiki decks run Reclamation Sage and Qasali Pridemage in the main (meaning they don't even need to use a SB slot for this, hell even then they have 1/2 extra slots for these kind of cards as well), in addition they can tutor them with Chord or Evolution.
It doesn't really do anything against affinity, which is not a bad MU and doesn't require PN to be sided in.
It stops nothing except Lightning Storm from Ad Nauseam, which they don't care about since they can go Labman + Visions and win.
Aether Vial is not such a scary card, we don't run counterspells anyway. We have better things to bring against Merfolk and D&T.
Yeah you make a good point, it comes down on T4 anyway most of the times, so the best should be 3/4 Thorns + Chalices as the main pieces of hate + TKS to take their outs from their hand and lock em out of the game.
Ad Nauseam is not a great MU. If they stumble and you have good mana you can run away with the game, but if they have the combo on T4 with 1 Mana rock you're dead and you can't do anything about it.
Spellskite is not good vs Ad Nauseam, it doesn't even stop the kill from Lightning Storm (they can let your spellskite activations resolve, discard another land, let your spellskite resolve again and so on until you have no more life to pay for it). And, yes, as said by others, they have to side in Slaughter Pact in the MU so they will have access to it, should it represent a problem. Remember they have access to Tolaria West to tutor for pacts as well.
Surgical is meh against Ad Nauseam, and great vs Valakut with GQ or Map.
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Ad Nauseam is the one combo deck we can interact the least, so if you expect it to be present and -more importantly- doing well in your meta, you should start looking at 3/4 Thorns of Amethysts in your board. They are not just good against AN, they are great vs Control, other combo decks and regular Tron.
Titan Scapeshift allows us to interact a bit more. We have Warping Wail for their sorcery speed ramp spells, their Angers for value (kiling 1+ Reshapers) and it also counters Scapeshift, which is 50% of their wincons. Paradoxically, Chalice on 2 is great in this MU, as it counters 14 ramp spells on its own, but then again it comes down most of the times too late (unless T3 tron on the play), I said paradoxically because it counters Warping Wail and lets scapeshift resolve uncontested. Thorns seem pretty good for the MU in addition to Wails, Chalices and TKS.
Titan Breach is harder for us as it comes down mostly a turn earlier and doesn't rely on resolving ramp or sorceries that much. They play Summoner's Pact + Through the Breach using/abusing Simian Spirit Guide. So there are T3 plays that don't require them to cast a single spell before going off. Now, that is very scary. Again, Thorn of Amethyst makes this impossible until hitting 7 mana, which will require to cast at least 2 ramp spells (up to 3/4 ramp spells if they don't draw monkeys and/or stumble in land-drops), which will cost 1 more and will subsequently give you 2+ extra turns to tell the story.
Thorn of Amethyst doesn't win you the game, but it makes it so you can play more magic and have an actual shot at pressuring the combo decks and punishing them for not playing creatures. Time you can use to resolve an Ulamog of Kozilek and ride it to victory, or multiple Smashers/Endbringers to close it fast. Time this deck doesn't have against these decks, which are a big portion of the metagame.
I disagree with this, a surgical will lead to a shuffling of the deck which is the worst thing that can happen with all the scry.
RG Titan Scapeshift GR
UBWAd Nauseam WBU
CEldrazi TronC
I'm sorry but countering a scry is not where you want to be with sideboard cards. That is the very definition of 'meh'.
URGifts StormUR
URBlue MoonUR
URKiln FiendUR
BURStormBUR
With 3 Gemstone Caverns and 4 SSG you can on rare occasions pull off a turn one TKS on the play or draw. I've managed both and its downright filthy. It happens RARELY though. Probably about 3% of games or less so don't think it will be a regular occurrence. I even managed a turn 1 Smasher once on the draw, that one is probably 1% of games or less. Turn 2 does happen slightly more frequently. You are making me want to stay with my ramp package.
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
How many Dismember are you running in the 75 and how much aggro is in your meta?
STOP using "dude/bro" as a pejorative or insult. Grow up.
Margaret Thatcher: “The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.”
Benjamin Franklin: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."
Martin Luther King Jr.: "I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character."
Second,
What about Basilisk Collar in the main as a one of instead of a Batterskull which would go in the sideboard instead of the Basilisk Collar. On Endbringer, he oneshots stuff TWICE
I wouldn't use any of them, Witchbane Orb does nothing if they go with Laboratory Maniac and both are generally too slow.
Chalice on 1 (or on 0 if you see Lotus Bloom) and some pressure is what you need.