Actually had a great time today trying to run through some lines on Baad007's stream today. Do recommend watching if you want some commentary from me as it shows up in the comments.
Just wanted some tips on playing after we board. Last week I was playing against UR Storm and had won game 2 by hard casting E of rhetoric.
However in game 3 I was unsure how hard I needed to mulligan on the draw. I kept a hand where I was hoping to go for the quick kill but they got there first.
Anyway, my question is how hard do we mulligan against these fast decks? And what do I need to keep at a minimum. It feels like I need the bullet in hand. I didnt feel like chord was fast enough.
Actually had a great time today trying to run through some lines on Baad007's stream today. Do recommend watching if you want some commentary from me as it shows up in the comments.
This was great. Definitely the reason I want to stream. Thanks a lot for your input. I will be finishing my league with my GB build on Wednesday and will be starting a new league after those last 2 games and would be willing to stream different builds after said league. Remember, if anyone wants to see any specific tech be it sideboard or main am more than willing to try some things out.
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Standard BWZombiesBW
Modern BG Collected Company ElvesBG Watch at https://www.twitch.tv/baad007
Wed 7-10 Sat 7-10 Sun 6-10
Legacy GBW Natural Order ElvesGBW
Yep. See my signature. Missed this Saturday due to random streak of random laziness.
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Standard BWZombiesBW
Modern BG Collected Company ElvesBG Watch at https://www.twitch.tv/baad007
Wed 7-10 Sat 7-10 Sun 6-10
Legacy GBW Natural Order ElvesGBW
What do you guys think about the different Death Shadow variants running rampant recently? I've only encountered the traditional Jund and the new Grixis build. Personally, I think Grixis Death Shadow is worse for Elves. It has far too many answers compared to Jund variants which I can usually race based on past matches.
Have a question/scenario - below - what is the T2 play (Game 3 against Eldrazi Tron)? I drew the thoughtsieze T2 so wasn't able to play it T1 (also an interesting question of T1 Dork vs Thoughtsieze if I did have it).
I went with T2 Archdruid. Opponent played a T2 Walking Ballista but got a All is Dust playing thoughtsieze T3 (Lead Stampede and DElite off Lead as well).
Opponent next turn got Tron but didnt pump Ballista (played Batterskull instead) to kill the archdruid which let me go off on my T4...
You should never play Thoughtseize on T1. Most of the problematic cards such as boardwipes can only come on T3/4 which means you want to be casting Thoughtseize on T2/T3.
Hey guys. I'm going to be streaming different versions of Elves on MTGO going forward starting tonight at 7pm Eastern at https://www.twitch.tv/baad007 and would love input on builds you guys wanna see played. Main goal is to figure out which build I end up playing in Roanoke for the SCG Invitational in June but would love to try out some things.
Ijust finished watching your replay !
I wanted to start out by thanking for streaming i really hope you keep it up !
I think you need to practice goldfish
More ( I make my self do at least 10 a day) I found it really helps in nailing down the optimal path.
Before Syreal logged at 21:25 you missed lethal twice,
Besides the one that you're beating yourself up for.
You decided to take the scavenging ooze off of the collected company I thought that was an odd move until I saw the line
You had archdruid x2 and Ozze even with missing the eto trigger to pump him you still represented lethal with bumping him instead of playing Ezuri
I would suggest finding someone you can play casual modern and run back the games and explore different lines.
My Grand Prix prep was with a merfolk player we would keep track of what was played on what turns and play the same game seven different ways.
I don't mean to come off as sounding negative , I've punted far worse than any of the ones you did in that video in actual competition.
Actually had a great time today trying to run through some lines on Baad007's stream today. Do recommend watching if you want some commentary from me as it shows up in the comments.
This was great. Definitely the reason I want to stream. Thanks a lot for your input. I will be finishing my league with my GB build on Wednesday and will be starting a new league after those last 2 games and would be willing to stream different builds after said league. Remember, if anyone wants to see any specific tech be it sideboard or main am more than willing to try some things out.
So I wrote a brief analysis of match one, as I didn't catch it on stream:
a brief analysis of match 1:
m1g1 mulligan: seems fine, you want an explosive hand g1
m1g1 mulligan 2: i'd keep this
t1: scry bottom, llanowar off cavern go
(idk why he tanked so hard here, probably googled a list)
opp t1: wooded, stomping, search ->
>>>deck known: rg scapeshift
>>>only possible plan, begin to race
t2: land, nettle, mystic attack
>>>"probably shouldnt have anger main"
>>>rg does have anger main - but you don't have a choice
opp t2: glade tapped, go
t3: rec sage, pass
>>>this is the correct call...even if he did play khe after
opp t3: search off suspend, explore, khe, land
>>>you're likely dying outside of a good draw
t4: draw ezuri, play nykthos
>>>>>line one: only attack with nettle and rec sage, hold ezuri regen/pump
----this line is the best course of action, as it removes anger as an out
----live outs for opp here <assume not in hand>: 4 shift + 4 titan + 3-4 summoners pact = 11-12/47
---- =23.4%-25.5% of death
>>>>>line two: ezuri, smash for 10
----this line is awful, you die immediately if he has combo or anger
----live outs for opp here <assume not in hand>: 4 shift + 4 titan + 3-4 summoners pact + 2-3 md angers = 13-15/47
---- =27.7%-31.9% of death
conclusion: line two at least 4% worse!!!!!!!!
you chose line one, but:
!fumble!: playing ezuri pre combat (but you identified that)
opp t4: khe -> lethal
shrug, can't do much but the fumble is important to keep track of - that can lose you plenty of games you don't remember.
---------
how i would sideboard:
-2 lead the stampede
-2 visionary
-1 scavenging ooze
+2 thoughtseize
+1 spellskite
+1 elvish champion
+1 stain the mind
you're talking through a couple of things:
a) scavenging ooze doesn't do anything because its an expensive mana sink and your dudes get exiled off anger
b) if the main plan doesn't work (ie, in this matchup), then sideboarding is important!
c) spellskite forces them to get an 8th land to combo you with scapeshift, and occasionally protects a lord from bolts
d) stain the mind works overtime here if you do draw it, and name primetime
e) thoughtseize important to buy you a turn around t3 to hit a payoff
---------
g2: i'd keep this hand also
t1 nettle go (slow, but whatever)
opp t1: suspend search off forest
t2: attack for 2, dwynen's go
opp t2: mountain, go
!!!!! D A N G E R - A N G E R !!!!!
t3: forest
things to worry about from opponent: anger
two decision trees: respect anger or yolo **** it
if respect:
>>>>>line one:
----attack with nettle and dwynen's, post combat play heritage and nettle, leave up 4 mana to coco post anger
----this is likely the only good line where you respect anger and bolt here
you did take this line, but it was the greedier variant where you could have gotten horrendously punished if he had a bolt.
dangerous stuff.
if yolo **** it:
>>>>>line one: dump hand and pray
----not gonna comment on the intrecacies of this line as they involve getting murdered by anger
opp t3: search anger, shock go, you get archdruid and scooze off the coco.
!misplay!: should have taken the dork - +1 mana on archdruid always relevant and scooze isn't looking to do much here
t4: land, archdruid, attack for !5! (lets assume you didn't goof this one)
----!if you picked archdruid + dork last turn: attack for 6 now!----
opp t4: farseek, land for turn go
t5: draw ezuri, play ezuri:
----!if you picked dork + archdruid, game is over as you swing in for 12.!
----instead you're stuck using it as wrath insurance which always feels awful when they can untap and kill you with the right set of cards
luckily opponent bricks and scoops it up
----------
again, no boarding, which feels disappointing as you have a board full of stuff you can throw at your opponent
----------
g3:
hand one, snap no
hand two, i'd probably risk it, a mull to five likely isn't any better. this hand just gets crushed by anger, no choice however tho.
scry top is fine
opp t1: wooded, forest, search
t1: gilt leaf, llanowar
opp t2: land, chalice for 1
t2: cavern, LUL
>>>>>line one: play ezuri, pass
----this one has very little foresight, do not recommend
>>>>line two: play mystic, attack for 1 pass.
----it sets up the coco in your hand next turn, which is one of the key elements of you possibly winning the race here
you picked line one, which was ehhhhhhhhh, feels like a decently large error
opp t3: khe, valakut tapped pass
t3:
>>>>>line one's t3: play nykthos, attack with ezuri, hold up company mana (which is lucky, because you hit the 1 in 52 for it to work)
>>>>>line two's t3: attack with one dork, hold up company, pass.
>>>>>line two's t3 w/ nykthos as the assumed land: tap dorks for ezuri, hold up company, pass.
you needed to get a lot-a-bit lucky for your line to work, while line two's lines are incredibly solid regardless of what he does.
opp t4: land, SURPRISE, PRISMATIC OMEN YOU NEED TO WIN NEXT TURN WOOOOOO, into two valakut triggers off farseek which basically kill you unless double shaman of the pack saves you.
you didn't hit but whatever - you're 100% dead here anyway, matchup is bad.
but! theres still a lot of things to consider (900 words, at least), even if it is a bad matchup!
Hope it's useful to you (and other Elves players, I guess), despite the fact I wrote it on notepad.
Not negative at all; it's critical. Like I said before, this is exactly why I want to stream. I want to be able to give myself and other players as many opportunities to see different lines of play so that we can get better by being able to have points of reference in the future since most of the streamers out there don't really touch elves. Please keep it up.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard BWZombiesBW
Modern BG Collected Company ElvesBG Watch at https://www.twitch.tv/baad007
Wed 7-10 Sat 7-10 Sun 6-10
Legacy GBW Natural Order ElvesGBW
You should never play Thoughtseize on T1. Most of the problematic cards such as boardwipes can only come on T3/4 which means you want to be casting Thoughtseize on T2/T3.
That makes sense for sure - thanks!
For the T2 play there - would you have Thoughtsiezed or gone with archduird? How about if on the draw? My thought was nothing too problematic with waiting until my T3 to thoughtsieze being on the play but if on the draw it would be better to thoughtsieze him on my T2 before his T3.
Also agree on the above - for a 3 mana artifact rather have Lifecrafter's. Hoping to try that out in a league or two to see how i like it over the third Lead the Stampede.
I PMed with Baad007 about grinding games as well with the deck but preparing for GP Vegas (both Modern and Legacy elves). Noted that I was planning on tracking match up and Win/Loss data. Below were my planned data points I was going to track but wanted to see if anyone else would be interested in other data points. Ill post a link to the data once I get into the 100 game range (currently only at 40).
Deck Name
Deck Version
Match W/L
Opponent
Opponent's Deck
Game 1 P/D [Play/Draw]
Game 1 Mull [Tracking starting hand size]
Game 1 W/L
Game 2 P/D
Game 2 Mull
Game 2 W/L
Game 3 P/D
Game 3 Mull
Game 3 W/L
Sideboard +
Mainboard -
Overall Comments [Note any interesting lines - P/D SBing differences]
Depends on what kind of Tron you're up against. GR one threatens Pyroclasm on T2 whereas GB/GW aren't that problematic. I'd have gone for Archdruid in most cases. Even if they Pyroclasm you, you had another land in your hand which would've allowed you to cast Lead on T3 if you got wiped. Otherwise you cast Thoughtseize on T3 to see what you're up against and then keep your CoCo up.
Just wanted some tips on playing after we board. Last week I was playing against UR Storm and had won game 2 by hard casting E of rhetoric.
However in game 3 I was unsure how hard I needed to mulligan on the draw. I kept a hand where I was hoping to go for the quick kill but they got there first.
Anyway, my question is how hard do we mulligan against these fast decks? And what do I need to keep at a minimum. It feels like I need the bullet in hand. I didnt feel like chord was fast enough.
This was great. Definitely the reason I want to stream. Thanks a lot for your input. I will be finishing my league with my GB build on Wednesday and will be starting a new league after those last 2 games and would be willing to stream different builds after said league. Remember, if anyone wants to see any specific tech be it sideboard or main am more than willing to try some things out.
BWZombiesBW
Modern
BG Collected Company ElvesBG
Watch at https://www.twitch.tv/baad007
Wed 7-10 Sat 7-10 Sun 6-10
Legacy
GBW Natural Order ElvesGBW
BWZombiesBW
Modern
BG Collected Company ElvesBG
Watch at https://www.twitch.tv/baad007
Wed 7-10 Sat 7-10 Sun 6-10
Legacy
GBW Natural Order ElvesGBW
Opponent next turn got Tron but didnt pump Ballista (played Batterskull instead) to kill the archdruid which let me go off on my T4...
WBG Elves WBG
Cheeri0s
EDH:
RG Omnath, Locus of Rage RG || GWUB Atraxa, Praetors' Voice GWUB
R Zo-Zu the Punisher R || WU Brago, King Eternal WU
UB Gisa and Geralf UB || BGW Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW
Ijust finished watching your replay !
I wanted to start out by thanking for streaming i really hope you keep it up !
I think you need to practice goldfish
More ( I make my self do at least 10 a day) I found it really helps in nailing down the optimal path.
Before Syreal logged at 21:25 you missed lethal twice,
Besides the one that you're beating yourself up for.
You decided to take the scavenging ooze off of the collected company I thought that was an odd move until I saw the line
You had archdruid x2 and Ozze even with missing the eto trigger to pump him you still represented lethal with bumping him instead of playing Ezuri
I would suggest finding someone you can play casual modern and run back the games and explore different lines.
My Grand Prix prep was with a merfolk player we would keep track of what was played on what turns and play the same game seven different ways.
I don't mean to come off as sounding negative , I've punted far worse than any of the ones you did in that video in actual competition.
These things have helped.
So I wrote a brief analysis of match one, as I didn't catch it on stream:
a brief analysis of match 1:
m1g1 mulligan: seems fine, you want an explosive hand g1
m1g1 mulligan 2: i'd keep this
t1: scry bottom, llanowar off cavern go
(idk why he tanked so hard here, probably googled a list)
opp t1: wooded, stomping, search ->
>>>deck known: rg scapeshift
>>>only possible plan, begin to race
t2: land, nettle, mystic attack
>>>"probably shouldnt have anger main"
>>>rg does have anger main - but you don't have a choice
opp t2: glade tapped, go
t3: rec sage, pass
>>>this is the correct call...even if he did play khe after
opp t3: search off suspend, explore, khe, land
>>>you're likely dying outside of a good draw
t4: draw ezuri, play nykthos
>>>>>line one: only attack with nettle and rec sage, hold ezuri regen/pump
----this line is the best course of action, as it removes anger as an out
----live outs for opp here <assume not in hand>: 4 shift + 4 titan + 3-4 summoners pact = 11-12/47
---- =23.4%-25.5% of death
>>>>>line two: ezuri, smash for 10
----this line is awful, you die immediately if he has combo or anger
----live outs for opp here <assume not in hand>: 4 shift + 4 titan + 3-4 summoners pact + 2-3 md angers = 13-15/47
---- =27.7%-31.9% of death
conclusion: line two at least 4% worse!!!!!!!!
you chose line one, but:
!fumble!: playing ezuri pre combat (but you identified that)
opp t4: khe -> lethal
shrug, can't do much but the fumble is important to keep track of - that can lose you plenty of games you don't remember.
---------
how i would sideboard:
-2 lead the stampede
-2 visionary
-1 scavenging ooze
+2 thoughtseize
+1 spellskite
+1 elvish champion
+1 stain the mind
you're talking through a couple of things:
a) scavenging ooze doesn't do anything because its an expensive mana sink and your dudes get exiled off anger
b) if the main plan doesn't work (ie, in this matchup), then sideboarding is important!
c) spellskite forces them to get an 8th land to combo you with scapeshift, and occasionally protects a lord from bolts
d) stain the mind works overtime here if you do draw it, and name primetime
e) thoughtseize important to buy you a turn around t3 to hit a payoff
---------
g2: i'd keep this hand also
t1 nettle go (slow, but whatever)
opp t1: suspend search off forest
t2: attack for 2, dwynen's go
opp t2: mountain, go
!!!!! D A N G E R - A N G E R !!!!!
t3: forest
things to worry about from opponent: anger
two decision trees: respect anger or yolo **** it
if respect:
>>>>>line one:
----attack with nettle and dwynen's, post combat play heritage and nettle, leave up 4 mana to coco post anger
----this is likely the only good line where you respect anger and bolt here
you did take this line, but it was the greedier variant where you could have gotten horrendously punished if he had a bolt.
dangerous stuff.
if yolo **** it:
>>>>>line one: dump hand and pray
----not gonna comment on the intrecacies of this line as they involve getting murdered by anger
opp t3: search anger, shock go, you get archdruid and scooze off the coco.
!misplay!: should have taken the dork - +1 mana on archdruid always relevant and scooze isn't looking to do much here
t4: land, archdruid, attack for !5! (lets assume you didn't goof this one)
----!if you picked archdruid + dork last turn: attack for 6 now!----
opp t4: farseek, land for turn go
t5: draw ezuri, play ezuri:
----!if you picked dork + archdruid, game is over as you swing in for 12.!
----instead you're stuck using it as wrath insurance which always feels awful when they can untap and kill you with the right set of cards
luckily opponent bricks and scoops it up
----------
again, no boarding, which feels disappointing as you have a board full of stuff you can throw at your opponent
----------
g3:
hand one, snap no
hand two, i'd probably risk it, a mull to five likely isn't any better. this hand just gets crushed by anger, no choice however tho.
scry top is fine
opp t1: wooded, forest, search
t1: gilt leaf, llanowar
opp t2: land, chalice for 1
t2: cavern, LUL
>>>>>line one: play ezuri, pass
----this one has very little foresight, do not recommend
>>>>line two: play mystic, attack for 1 pass.
----it sets up the coco in your hand next turn, which is one of the key elements of you possibly winning the race here
you picked line one, which was ehhhhhhhhh, feels like a decently large error
opp t3: khe, valakut tapped pass
t3:
>>>>>line one's t3: play nykthos, attack with ezuri, hold up company mana (which is lucky, because you hit the 1 in 52 for it to work)
>>>>>line two's t3: attack with one dork, hold up company, pass.
>>>>>line two's t3 w/ nykthos as the assumed land: tap dorks for ezuri, hold up company, pass.
you needed to get a lot-a-bit lucky for your line to work, while line two's lines are incredibly solid regardless of what he does.
opp t4: land, SURPRISE, PRISMATIC OMEN YOU NEED TO WIN NEXT TURN WOOOOOO, into two valakut triggers off farseek which basically kill you unless double shaman of the pack saves you.
you didn't hit but whatever - you're 100% dead here anyway, matchup is bad.
but! theres still a lot of things to consider (900 words, at least), even if it is a bad matchup!
Hope it's useful to you (and other Elves players, I guess), despite the fact I wrote it on notepad.
BWZombiesBW
Modern
BG Collected Company ElvesBG
Watch at https://www.twitch.tv/baad007
Wed 7-10 Sat 7-10 Sun 6-10
Legacy
GBW Natural Order ElvesGBW
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
This one looks interesting. Doesn't work on dorks but it cheapens Visionary, Elite, Archdruid and Ezuri.
WBG Elves WBG
Cheeri0s
EDH:
RG Omnath, Locus of Rage RG || GWUB Atraxa, Praetors' Voice GWUB
R Zo-Zu the Punisher R || WU Brago, King Eternal WU
UB Gisa and Geralf UB || BGW Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW
That makes sense for sure - thanks!
For the T2 play there - would you have Thoughtsiezed or gone with archduird? How about if on the draw? My thought was nothing too problematic with waiting until my T3 to thoughtsieze being on the play but if on the draw it would be better to thoughtsieze him on my T2 before his T3.
Also agree on the above - for a 3 mana artifact rather have Lifecrafter's. Hoping to try that out in a league or two to see how i like it over the third Lead the Stampede.
I PMed with Baad007 about grinding games as well with the deck but preparing for GP Vegas (both Modern and Legacy elves). Noted that I was planning on tracking match up and Win/Loss data. Below were my planned data points I was going to track but wanted to see if anyone else would be interested in other data points. Ill post a link to the data once I get into the 100 game range (currently only at 40).
Deck Name
Deck Version
Match W/L
Opponent
Opponent's Deck
Game 1 P/D [Play/Draw]
Game 1 Mull [Tracking starting hand size]
Game 1 W/L
Game 2 P/D
Game 2 Mull
Game 2 W/L
Game 3 P/D
Game 3 Mull
Game 3 W/L
Sideboard +
Mainboard -
Overall Comments [Note any interesting lines - P/D SBing differences]
WBG Elves WBG
Cheeri0s
EDH:
RG Omnath, Locus of Rage RG || GWUB Atraxa, Praetors' Voice GWUB
R Zo-Zu the Punisher R || WU Brago, King Eternal WU
UB Gisa and Geralf UB || BGW Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW
This one pales in comparison to the Red one for us. Hazoret's Monument might facilitate the return of Combo Elves as a non-joke archetype.
Between this and Lifecrafter's Bestiary, I believe Bestiary has a much larger impact for our strategy, under more circumstances too.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR