I would like to bring up a discussion on Narnam Renegade. Disclaimer: Due to exams I wasn't able to play at all in the last month and was just thinking about possible options.
My meta is filled with Tron, Deaths Shadow Zoo and different takes on GBx (Abzan Aggro, classic Abzan, Jund, BUG Control). I think that Narnam Renegade feels like a solid option to run maindeck against those decks as it deals well with Tarmogoyf, Tasigur and all kinds creatures with a big butt. In addition to that it contests Deaths Shadow.
Due to the discussion on DSJ I want to talk about it specifically:
DSJ needs exactly Temur Battle Rage in order to go for a kill. Some versions run Ghor-Clan Rampager, though, as a toolbox creature to find with Traverse the Ulvenwald.
What I noticed is, that none of DSJ cards deal more than two damage. I think this is a big deal as it means, that a revolted Narnam Renegade can't be dealt with except with Fatal Push. In addition to that any Lord puts our Elves out of danger.
The thing is: Is Deathtouch reason enough to replace Nettle Sentinel? Sentinel can lead to ridiculously stupid fast turns which might be more relevant than Deathtouch. I'm just not sure what to think about that especially considering my local meta. Does it sound like a reasonable meta call? Against a blind field I'd probably go for Sentinels.
I think if you want to try to Deathtouch your opponent's Shadows and Goyfs, you may want to look at Chording for a Glissa, the Traitor rather than relying on Narnam. Glissa dodges all of their removal spells unless they can Revolt Push, and the first strike keeps her alive and stops them from trampling through your blocker if they have a trample effect.
Possibly too cute, but it's something I've been tossing around.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
I think if you want to try to Deathtouch your opponent's Shadows and Goyfs, you may want to look at Chording for a Glissa, the Traitor rather than relying on Narnam. Glissa dodges all of their removal spells unless they can Revolt Push, and the first strike keeps her alive and stops them from trampling through your blocker if they have a trample effect.
Possibly too cute, but it's something I've been tossing around.
There is also the wren's run vanquisher which doesn't require the fetch base of revolt triggers and is 1 cmc less than glissa. Ive been very underwhelmed in all 3 options. Glissa is probably the most potent of the combat tricks as she hangs around. Narnam is the most cost effective.
The philosophy of design underlying this GW 75 is as follows. Be as fast and consistent as possible performing Turn 4 combos in Game 1, then switch gears to either tool-box hate or survive your opponent's grind on the 'plan B' beatdown track in games 2 and 3.
I can't believe I used to run 4 Chord of Calling. Should be 3-of. You rarely want to draw 2, and never want to see 2 in an opener - its one of the few cards that can clog your hand since it has serious boardstate preconditions. Nevertheless its speed - using 'every part of the buffalo' (summoning-sick elves or freshly untapped sentinels) to put bodies directly into play - makes it an easy 3-of in a combo-centric GW 60. Lead the Stampede replaces the 4th chord. Not as fast but not as likely to sit idle in hand due to its cost, much much better for rebuilding.
Reid Duke was the first player I saw run Boreal Druid as the 9th mana dork. Helps avoid inconsistencies in development, marginally increases the rate of turn 4 goldfishes. Makes it marginally easier to rebuild after your turn 1 dork gets bolted/pushed. The 4th Nettle Sentinel gets the axe.
Still have significant questions vis-à-vis optimizing the mana-base. How many white mana sources are necessary to run Path to Exile and Rest in Peace? Does Nykthos have a place even in a combo-centric build? 3 or 4 Horizon Canopies? Sideboard likely needs significant work as well.
After playing/testing with Pokédex, I've come back to Chord of Calling. Quality over quantity.
Also, 1 copy of Griselbrand in my SB. Seems ridiculus but was always happy once it was on the field, it's a better Regal Force
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
11:15, restate my assumptions: 1. Mathematics is the language of nature. 2. Everything around us can be represented and understood through numbers. 3. If you graph these numbers, patterns emerge. Therefore: There are patterns everywhere in nature. - Maximillian Cohen.
Reid Duke was the first player I saw run Boreal Druid as the 9th mana dork. Helps avoid inconsistencies in development, marginally increases the rate of turn 4 goldfishes. Makes it marginally easier to rebuild after your turn 1 dork gets bolted/pushed. The 4th Nettle Sentinel gets the axe.
Still have significant questions vis-à-vis optimizing the mana-base. How many white mana sources are necessary to run Path to Exile and Rest in Peace? Does Nykthos have a place even in a combo-centric build? 3 or 4 Horizon Canopies? Sideboard likely needs significant work as well.
Boreal Druid only increases consistency by a significant margin if you have zero colourless lands. You'll likely get a decent amount of awkward draws where Boreal Druid is the only dork, and the second land you have is Nykthos. I'd suggest cutting the Nykthos in this case if you choose to include the Boreal Druid, it always feels overkill.
(let me preface the rest of this by saying I play GB primarily, so some of this might be wrong - I defer to GW players if they disagree)
From a constructed standpoint, the correct number of White sources to reliably cast Path ~T4 is 9 sources. You can skim if you like, but 9 has always felt right to me in the GB variant of the deck trying to cast Thoughtseize. The creatures you can sorta cheat and call Cavern a white source also, so they're more consistent.
I'd rather run the 4th Horizon before the first fetch, and one fetch in your list isn't really doing much - I'd look to replace it with a basic before anything else.
Random note:
Reid Duke didn't get there first, the Japanese did - They've been posting GB Elves lists since the release of Shaman eschewing Nettle Sentinel for 1 Boreal Druid + a toolbox (and 19 lands, an odd number now considering the Western standard is 18). It seems to work over there, but I'm unsure about the precise particulars of the metagame over there (but I will find out in May!).
The more I play this deck, the more I feel Lead the Stampede is the best non-CoCo spell we have. Perhaps it's just my meta, but the disruption I'm facing seems to consistently cripple the efficacy of Chord, whereas Lead just blows right by one-for-one discard and removal spells.
What do you fellows think about a 3/1 Lead/Chord split in the main, with a second Chord and a Bestiary (to replace the maindeck Chord in grindy games) from the side? In such a setup, the sideboard would likely run a few one-of toolbox creatures, with the rest of the spots going to multiple copies of Elves that can slot in to our usual progression while adding matchup-relevant advantages, like Essence Warden and Reclamation Sage.
This setup, of course, begs the question of how we combat boardwipes, with Chord's presence minimal. Rely on Lead to help rebuild, or perhaps jam three Heroic Intervention in the side? Tough call.
What is the consensus on Copperhorn Scout ?
In theory it seems really powerful and can lead to absurd plays even better than Nettle Sentinel at its best.
I never found Visionaries to be good enough in Modern that's why I don't have any in my list. I might cut the Nettles too as they don't really do much, I'll probably add 2 more toolbox creatures (and change my SB with it) and either a 18th land or a 4th Llanowar Elves.
11:15, restate my assumptions: 1. Mathematics is the language of nature. 2. Everything around us can be represented and understood through numbers. 3. If you graph these numbers, patterns emerge. Therefore: There are patterns everywhere in nature. - Maximillian Cohen.
What is the consensus on Copperhorn Scout ?
In theory it seems really powerful and can lead to absurd plays even better than Nettle Sentinel at its best.
I started playing with Copperhorn and I think it fits me better then Nettles. Never was a huge fan of Nettles anyway.
Copperhorn is a one-of to be run in builds that maindeck 3+ chords.
Crazy powerful and can win games in situations where no other card would.
Don't underrate Visionaries - increasing velocity in this deck is unbelievably powerful. Lets you make land-drops, pulls you into missing pieces, bails you out of mulligans and removal-attrition. We're a synergy-based 'critical mass' deck, so the extra card truly helps. This is the logic that has got me sold on the 4th Canopy.
Been goldfishing with Syreal94's suggestions, will run something like this for testing:
Whats the general opinion on Lifecrafter's Bestiary? Does it get good value in this deck, or is it generally a dead draw/win-more type card? Does it sometimes win games?
It can absolutely win games and here are some of the pros and cons of it:
Pros:
- Costs 3 mana which means we can play it T2 to start generating value asap
- We're an aggro-combo deck. The scry it provides allows us to filter our draws depending on what we need at the moment.
- Our 1CMC slot is very dense. Pokedex turns all of our 1 drops into Visionaries. It's also on cast trigger which means we draw a card even they counter it.
- With enough mana we can chain creatures into more draws into more creatures.
- Because we draw cards (and scry), we get to see the sideboard cards unlike Lead/CoCo which put them to the bottom.
Cons:
- It does nothing when it hits the board. Needs a follow up or waiting until next turn to generate value.
- Worse topdeck than Lead/CoCo.
- Less effective against decks running artifact removal such as BGx/Grixis (eg. Kolaghan's Command, Abrupt Decay).
- Mana intensive.
This is just what I gathered from my own testing with it. If anyone else has anything more to add, please do.
My take is that Bestiary outperforms Lead/Chord vs. decks that grind us out, and in other matchups, it underperforms those counterparts. What puts me off of it is that "grindy deck" usually means Jund, Junk, or Grixis – each of which has maindeck answers for Bestiary. Two of them even have a maindeck 2-for-1 in K-Command.
I get that it's drawing removal from another target, but I don't think that's a great argument compared to Lead, which just gets you the value almost guaranteed and all at once.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
My take is that Bestiary outperforms Lead/Chord vs. decks that grind us out, and in other matchups, it underperforms those counterparts. What puts me off of it is that "grindy deck" usually means Jund, Junk, or Grixis – each of which has maindeck answers for Bestiary. Two of them even have a maindeck 2-for-1 in K-Command.
I get that it's drawing removal from another target, but I don't think that's a great argument compared to Lead, which just gets you the value almost guaranteed and all at once.
I agree with the fact that bestiary is not a card for every season.
To give its best it has to be on the battlefield for some turns.
Hence against fast deck it is orrible.
And in fact I prefer to have it on the sideboard.
But I do not think that the fact that it can be destroyed is relevant.
Yes it can be removed by kolaghan's command.
But this means that another effect of kolaghan's command will not be used against us.
Yes it can be removed by abrupt decay.
But this means that we will keep in safe another elf.
That's true, but you're comparing Bestiary to another Elf. I'm comparing Bestiary to what would replace it - Lead the Stampede. Is it better to have a Bestiary which may or may not draw a removal spell, or a Lead that's almost certain to gas us up (and filter past extra lands)? That's an honest question; I don't know the answer. But the fact that the best decks to run Bestiary against are also generally the ones that can kill it seems like a bad position for the card to be in.
I guess some of it depends on if we're expecting sweepers. If they have sweepers for our board and can spend spot-removal on Bestiary, that's a huge liability for us. If they have to go 1-for-1, it's probably not as big an issue.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
I feel like copperhorns work really well with Ezuri. Especially if you have archdruids or heritage druids in play. You could pump Ezuri main phase then attack after attacking is declared you can pump for more damage. Seems good. I run 3 in my abzan build.
Has anyone tried 4 copperhorns? it feels like a nettle but in a match where people don't interact with you it works insanely well with archdruid or even dorks for allowing co-co and chord during combat, but does it last long enough to matter most games? Havent been able to take elves through recently because of work so habemt been able to test recently with the various tech like pokedex.
The 12-3 list from Vancouver played 4 Copperhorn main
Whats the general opinion on Lifecrafter's Bestiary? Does it get good value in this deck, or is it generally a dead draw/win-more type card? Does it sometimes win games?
I saw a player in my area paying Elves with Lifecrafter's Bestiary and it was interesting. I was playing Merfolk against my opponent and they dropped one around the middle of the game and it didn't really help them. If can help draw cards but the mana used could have been used for more creatures to develop their board.
Whats the general opinion on Lifecrafter's Bestiary? Does it get good value in this deck, or is it generally a dead draw/win-more type card? Does it sometimes win games?
it's rather useless against most Aggro deck since you'd rather have board presence than draw cards. In these kind of match-ups, you'd wish your Lifecrafter's Bestiary was something else.
Against control decks however, this card is broken. If it resolve, your opponent will never manage to keep, or even get card advantage over you. Sweeper will slow you down instead of making you lose on the spot and all your elves are already replaced with value, so spot removal is annoying at worst. You still have to worry over cards that can lock you out like Elesh Norn, Grand cenobite or Ensnaring Bridge, but otherwise, I'd definitely recommend it. I currently play one copy in my GB build and almost everytime it got out against control, it won me the game.
I would like to bring up a discussion on Narnam Renegade. Disclaimer: Due to exams I wasn't able to play at all in the last month and was just thinking about possible options.
My meta is filled with Tron, Deaths Shadow Zoo and different takes on GBx (Abzan Aggro, classic Abzan, Jund, BUG Control). I think that Narnam Renegade feels like a solid option to run maindeck against those decks as it deals well with Tarmogoyf, Tasigur and all kinds creatures with a big butt. In addition to that it contests Deaths Shadow.
Due to the discussion on DSJ I want to talk about it specifically:
DSJ needs exactly Temur Battle Rage in order to go for a kill. Some versions run Ghor-Clan Rampager, though, as a toolbox creature to find with Traverse the Ulvenwald.
What I noticed is, that none of DSJ cards deal more than two damage. I think this is a big deal as it means, that a revolted Narnam Renegade can't be dealt with except with Fatal Push. In addition to that any Lord puts our Elves out of danger.
The thing is: Is Deathtouch reason enough to replace Nettle Sentinel? Sentinel can lead to ridiculously stupid fast turns which might be more relevant than Deathtouch. I'm just not sure what to think about that especially considering my local meta. Does it sound like a reasonable meta call? Against a blind field I'd probably go for Sentinels.
Possibly too cute, but it's something I've been tossing around.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
There is also the wren's run vanquisher which doesn't require the fetch base of revolt triggers and is 1 cmc less than glissa. Ive been very underwhelmed in all 3 options. Glissa is probably the most potent of the combat tricks as she hangs around. Narnam is the most cost effective.
Spent some time getting back into the deck since I last left it. Updated my list:
1 Pendelhaven
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Razorverge Thicket
3 Horizon Canopy
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Temple Garden
4 Forest
4 Collected Company
3 Chord of Calling
1 Lead the Stampede
4 Elvish Mystic
1 Boreal Druid
4 Heritage Druid
1 Copperhorn Scout
3 Nettle Sentinel
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Dwynen's Elite
4 Elvish Archdruid
3 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Mirror Entity
1 Path to Exile
3 Lead the Stampede
1 Rest in Peace
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
3 Essence Warden
1 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Chameleon Colossus
The philosophy of design underlying this GW 75 is as follows. Be as fast and consistent as possible performing Turn 4 combos in Game 1, then switch gears to either tool-box hate or survive your opponent's grind on the 'plan B' beatdown track in games 2 and 3.
I can't believe I used to run 4 Chord of Calling. Should be 3-of. You rarely want to draw 2, and never want to see 2 in an opener - its one of the few cards that can clog your hand since it has serious boardstate preconditions. Nevertheless its speed - using 'every part of the buffalo' (summoning-sick elves or freshly untapped sentinels) to put bodies directly into play - makes it an easy 3-of in a combo-centric GW 60. Lead the Stampede replaces the 4th chord. Not as fast but not as likely to sit idle in hand due to its cost, much much better for rebuilding.
Reid Duke was the first player I saw run Boreal Druid as the 9th mana dork. Helps avoid inconsistencies in development, marginally increases the rate of turn 4 goldfishes. Makes it marginally easier to rebuild after your turn 1 dork gets bolted/pushed. The 4th Nettle Sentinel gets the axe.
Still have significant questions vis-à-vis optimizing the mana-base. How many white mana sources are necessary to run Path to Exile and Rest in Peace? Does Nykthos have a place even in a combo-centric build? 3 or 4 Horizon Canopies? Sideboard likely needs significant work as well.
Also, 1 copy of Griselbrand in my SB. Seems ridiculus but was always happy once it was on the field, it's a better Regal Force
Standard: XDon't play.X
Legacy: BUReanimatorUB
Vintage: URBWGDBRU
Boreal Druid only increases consistency by a significant margin if you have zero colourless lands. You'll likely get a decent amount of awkward draws where Boreal Druid is the only dork, and the second land you have is Nykthos. I'd suggest cutting the Nykthos in this case if you choose to include the Boreal Druid, it always feels overkill.
(let me preface the rest of this by saying I play GB primarily, so some of this might be wrong - I defer to GW players if they disagree)
From a constructed standpoint, the correct number of White sources to reliably cast Path ~T4 is 9 sources. You can skim if you like, but 9 has always felt right to me in the GB variant of the deck trying to cast Thoughtseize. The creatures you can sorta cheat and call Cavern a white source also, so they're more consistent.
I'd rather run the 4th Horizon before the first fetch, and one fetch in your list isn't really doing much - I'd look to replace it with a basic before anything else.
Random note:
Reid Duke didn't get there first, the Japanese did - They've been posting GB Elves lists since the release of Shaman eschewing Nettle Sentinel for 1 Boreal Druid + a toolbox (and 19 lands, an odd number now considering the Western standard is 18). It seems to work over there, but I'm unsure about the precise particulars of the metagame over there (but I will find out in May!).
What do you fellows think about a 3/1 Lead/Chord split in the main, with a second Chord and a Bestiary (to replace the maindeck Chord in grindy games) from the side? In such a setup, the sideboard would likely run a few one-of toolbox creatures, with the rest of the spots going to multiple copies of Elves that can slot in to our usual progression while adding matchup-relevant advantages, like Essence Warden and Reclamation Sage.
This setup, of course, begs the question of how we combat boardwipes, with Chord's presence minimal. Rely on Lead to help rebuild, or perhaps jam three Heroic Intervention in the side? Tough call.
In theory it seems really powerful and can lead to absurd plays even better than Nettle Sentinel at its best.
Here's my revamped list as of right now:
4x Elvish Mystic
4x Heritage Druid
4x Dwynen's Elite
4x Elvish Archdruid
4x Shaman of the Pack
3x Essence Warden
3x Nettle Sentinel
3x Llanowar Elves
2x Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Elves of Deep Shadow
1x Spellskite
4x Collected Company
3x Chord of Calling
2x Lifecrafter's Bestiary
Lands: 17
4x Blooming Marsh
4x Gilt-Leaf Palace
4x Windswept Heath
3x Forest
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Westvale Abbey
4x Thoughtseize
3x Abrupt Decay
1x Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1x Eternal Witness
1x Elvish Champion
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Griselbrand
1x Chord of Calling
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Yixlid Jailer
I never found Visionaries to be good enough in Modern that's why I don't have any in my list. I might cut the Nettles too as they don't really do much, I'll probably add 2 more toolbox creatures (and change my SB with it) and either a 18th land or a 4th Llanowar Elves.
Thoughts?
Standard: XDon't play.X
Legacy: BUReanimatorUB
Vintage: URBWGDBRU
I started playing with Copperhorn and I think it fits me better then Nettles. Never was a huge fan of Nettles anyway.
Crazy powerful and can win games in situations where no other card would.
Don't underrate Visionaries - increasing velocity in this deck is unbelievably powerful. Lets you make land-drops, pulls you into missing pieces, bails you out of mulligans and removal-attrition. We're a synergy-based 'critical mass' deck, so the extra card truly helps. This is the logic that has got me sold on the 4th Canopy.
Been goldfishing with Syreal94's suggestions, will run something like this for testing:
4 Razorverge Thicket
4 Horizon Canopy
1 Pendelhaven
1 Temple Garden
4 Forest
4 Collected Company
3 Chord of Calling
2 Lead the Stampede
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Heritage Druid
1 Boreal Druid
1 Copperhorn Scout
3 Nettle Sentinel
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Dwynen's Elite
4 Elvish Archdruid
3 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Mirror Entity
2 Path to Exile
2 Lead the Stampede
1 Rest in Peace
3 Essence Warden
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Spellskite
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Chameleon Colossus
Pros:
- Costs 3 mana which means we can play it T2 to start generating value asap
- We're an aggro-combo deck. The scry it provides allows us to filter our draws depending on what we need at the moment.
- Our 1CMC slot is very dense. Pokedex turns all of our 1 drops into Visionaries. It's also on cast trigger which means we draw a card even they counter it.
- With enough mana we can chain creatures into more draws into more creatures.
- Because we draw cards (and scry), we get to see the sideboard cards unlike Lead/CoCo which put them to the bottom.
Cons:
- It does nothing when it hits the board. Needs a follow up or waiting until next turn to generate value.
- Worse topdeck than Lead/CoCo.
- Less effective against decks running artifact removal such as BGx/Grixis (eg. Kolaghan's Command, Abrupt Decay).
- Mana intensive.
This is just what I gathered from my own testing with it. If anyone else has anything more to add, please do.
WBG Elves WBG
Cheeri0s
EDH:
RG Omnath, Locus of Rage RG || GWUB Atraxa, Praetors' Voice GWUB
R Zo-Zu the Punisher R || WU Brago, King Eternal WU
UB Gisa and Geralf UB || BGW Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW
I get that it's drawing removal from another target, but I don't think that's a great argument compared to Lead, which just gets you the value almost guaranteed and all at once.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
That's true, but you're comparing Bestiary to another Elf. I'm comparing Bestiary to what would replace it - Lead the Stampede. Is it better to have a Bestiary which may or may not draw a removal spell, or a Lead that's almost certain to gas us up (and filter past extra lands)? That's an honest question; I don't know the answer. But the fact that the best decks to run Bestiary against are also generally the ones that can kill it seems like a bad position for the card to be in.
I guess some of it depends on if we're expecting sweepers. If they have sweepers for our board and can spend spot-removal on Bestiary, that's a huge liability for us. If they have to go 1-for-1, it's probably not as big an issue.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
The 12-3 list from Vancouver played 4 Copperhorn main
I saw a player in my area paying Elves with Lifecrafter's Bestiary and it was interesting. I was playing Merfolk against my opponent and they dropped one around the middle of the game and it didn't really help them. If can help draw cards but the mana used could have been used for more creatures to develop their board.
Against control decks however, this card is broken. If it resolve, your opponent will never manage to keep, or even get card advantage over you. Sweeper will slow you down instead of making you lose on the spot and all your elves are already replaced with value, so spot removal is annoying at worst. You still have to worry over cards that can lock you out like Elesh Norn, Grand cenobite or Ensnaring Bridge, but otherwise, I'd definitely recommend it. I currently play one copy in my GB build and almost everytime it got out against control, it won me the game.
(W/B)BW Tokens(W/B) | (B/R)Rakdos Burn(B/R) | (U/R)Gift Storm(U/R)