Abzan with displacers seems good on paper with Shaman, Visionary, and Dwynen's as etb targets; however, adding colorless will make GB/Abzan even more clunky given GB is already known for that.
I think TKS' best home is in a non-Gbx shell. Unless you take out shamans then maybe it can work with TS coming in from the side for more hand hate. The combination of both seems like a great strategy against fast decks (screw you Counters Company) and control.
Am I a madman for even considering GB with no Shaman?
Well, you should check out my scg iq top8 list. I made Shaman and tks work. Although it's only one tournament, it is worth further testing. In my opinion, it wasn't as clunky as it sounds since colorless sources are also gb sources. In essence, pain lands are trim color lands.
Do you have a link? I'm always interested in seeing what people are running.
I think the clunkiness stems from not being able to rely solely on Archdruid, Heritage, Llanowar, or Mystic's mana output. Whether I run eldrazi or shaman, I have to keep a land up to produce their color and this sometimes restricts me from vomiting my hand out. It's not often it happens but when it does happen it makes my plays slower. I actually think that a big reason why GW lists have made it to GP top 8s - unlike GB or GxC - is because their mana base is consistent. Also canopies and White's strong sideboard selection helps.
I do like the thought of GWC for the reasons I mentioned and because Boreal Druid produces Eldrazi's mana and it doesn't ping me unlike Elves of Deep Shadow if I'd want to cast Shaman off of it. This is of course just my 2 cents. I could very well be wrong and see a GBc list in the next GP.
Lastly despite me being critical about Non-Gw lists, I still see their potential. Afterall, my favorite build is GB,
Abzan with displacers seems good on paper with Shaman, Visionary, and Dwynen's as etb targets; however, adding colorless will make GB/Abzan even more clunky given GB is already known for that.
I think TKS' best home is in a non-Gbx shell. Unless you take out shamans then maybe it can work with TS coming in from the side for more hand hate. The combination of both seems like a great strategy against fast decks (screw you Counters Company) and control.
Am I a madman for even considering GB with no Shaman?
Well, you should check out my scg iq top8 list. I made Shaman and tks work. Although it's only one tournament, it is worth further testing. In my opinion, it wasn't as clunky as it sounds since colorless sources are also gb sources. In essence, pain lands are trim color lands.
Do you have a link? I'm always interested in seeing what people are running.
I think the clunkiness stems from not being able to rely solely on Archdruid, Heritage, Llanowar, or Mystic's mana output. Whether I run eldrazi or shaman, I have to keep a land up to produce their color and this sometimes restricts me from vomiting my hand out. It's not often it happens but when it does happen it makes my plays slower. I actually think that a big reason why GW lists have made it to GP top 8s - unlike GB or GxC - is because their mana base is consistent. Also canopies and White's strong sideboard selection helps.
I do like the thought of GWC for the reasons I mentioned and because Boreal Druid produces Eldrazi's mana and it doesn't ping me unlike Elves of Deep Shadow if I'd want to cast Shaman off of it. This is of course just my 2 cents. I could very well be wrong and see a GBc list in the next GP.
Lastly despite me being critical about Non-Gw lists, I still see their potential. Afterall, my favorite build is GB,
My link should be below my signature. I ran them for a top 8 finish.
Good questions and very good analysis. In short, I think GB's mana base is clunky, if you are trying to run them down with Ezuri or dump your hand as fast as possible. The interesting thing I find is that GBs game plan is not primarily trying to dump enough dudes to go wide, but to chip away with Shaman damage. Thus, elfballing is more difficult with GB, but our game plan is not trying to Elfball all the time, but to switch from elfballing to beatdown. An example would be playing shaman when you only have two dudes on board. In the case with GW, you would want to go wide and drop many creatures with the mana dorks, but the thing that makes GB unique is its ability to shift focus to a Shaman chip and beatdown. This makes elfballing and consequently Ezuri over-run as one of the ways to win and not the way to win. That's where the beauty and versatility of GB comes into play.
In terms of GW winning or placing top 8 lists, I believe that is primarily in the American metagame. Ever since Shaman was spoiled, GB has been piloted to good finishes here in Japan. I think, maybe, culture plays a big roll in people's preferences in playstyle. An example would be when the Vizier combo was released into the metagame. America was all over the combo and fitting them into Elves, but here in Japan, it simply experimented and I don't find many players who fully embraced it. Of course, that could be my metagame here near Osaka.
Don't think I've commented in a little while, but so far still having the most fun with black so been sticking to it. Been playing with the deck below. Anyone else having fun with Throne?
I'm using Gaddock Teeg + Stain the Mind right now. I just want to prevent him to play his big cards and to prevent the combos.
Or how about Collective Brutality instead?
You don't care. He does -2-2 to Archdruid or Ezuri and then you put another one. If he doesn't clear the board, you could win. If you want, put Spellskite or Blossoming Defense (I have 1 in mainboard), this could help.
I'm using Gaddock Teeg + Stain the Mind right now. I just want to prevent him to play his big cards and to prevent the combos.
Or how about Collective Brutality instead?
You don't care. He does -2-2 to Archdruid or Ezuri and then you put another one. If he doesn't clear the board, you could win. If you want, put Spellskite or Blossoming Defense (I have 1 in mainboard), this could help.
I'm asking as a sideboard option in place of Thoughtseize. Lol
Personally I would cut the elves of deep shadow for a one of Ezuri. Gives an alt win plan and a toolbox regen ability. Not sure I'd maindeck thoughtseize either, would almost certainly run Chord or Lead in those 3 slots.
Boreal, wastes, and cavern give 12 colorless sources for TNS, seems good enough.
Seeing a lot of talk about thought knot brewing. It's definitely a good card, but what exactly are we attempting to do with it? Are we using it to disrupt potential sweepers or combo? That seems to be the main "weakness" it could help with? If that's the case, does it come down quick enough to accomplish that? Turn 3 on the play may work, but turn 3 on the draw would likely be to late to stop a sweeper or combo card in many scenarios, especially post board where people are mulliganing into their sideboard cards.
Perhaps just some ignorance on my part, just curious what void people see this card filling in the deck.
Doesn't seem like something we'd want to Chord for, isn't an elf, and can't Company into it. Those seem like three pretty large strikes for a deck that assumes much of its power from synergy amongst those cards. Especially if we're going to be jamming 3-4 of them main. Admittedly I haven't play tested the card and am intrigued, hoping for some knowledge here.
If you can't afford Thoughtseize in GB elves sideboard, would Stain the Mind or Inquisition of Kozilek be solid replacements?
Don't forget to consider Duress. It's going to hit all those sweepers, plus planeswalkers, troublesome artifact, etc. Duress will come down more quickly than Stain. If it were me I'd be between Duress and Inquisition.
If you can't afford Thoughtseize in GB elves sideboard, would Stain the Mind or Inquisition of Kozilek be solid replacements?
Don't forget to consider Duress. It's going to hit all those sweepers, plus planeswalkers, troublesome artifact, etc. Duress will come down more quickly than Stain. If it were me I'd be between Duress and Inquisition.
Seeing a lot of talk about thought knot brewing. It's definitely a good card, but what exactly are we attempting to do with it? Are we using it to disrupt potential sweepers or combo? That seems to be the main "weakness" it could help with? If that's the case, does it come down quick enough to accomplish that? Turn 3 on the play may work, but turn 3 on the draw would likely be to late to stop a sweeper or combo card in many scenarios, especially post board where people are mulliganing into their sideboard cards.
Perhaps just some ignorance on my part, just curious what void people see this card filling in the deck.
Doesn't seem like something we'd want to Chord for, isn't an elf, and can't Company into it. Those seem like three pretty large strikes for a deck that assumes much of its power from synergy amongst those cards. Especially if we're going to be jamming 3-4 of them main. Admittedly I haven't play tested the card and am intrigued, hoping for some knowledge here.
I agree entirely here. I think the space is much better filled with other things, particularly selfless spirits, rec sages, etc... (other sideboard cards in mainboard slots for game 1 utility)
Seeing a lot of talk about thought knot brewing. It's definitely a good card, but what exactly are we attempting to do with it? Are we using it to disrupt potential sweepers or combo? That seems to be the main "weakness" it could help with? If that's the case, does it come down quick enough to accomplish that? Turn 3 on the play may work, but turn 3 on the draw would likely be to late to stop a sweeper or combo card in many scenarios, especially post board where people are mulliganing into their sideboard cards.
Perhaps just some ignorance on my part, just curious what void people see this card filling in the deck.
Doesn't seem like something we'd want to Chord for, isn't an elf, and can't Company into it. Those seem like three pretty large strikes for a deck that assumes much of its power from synergy amongst those cards. Especially if we're going to be jamming 3-4 of them main. Admittedly I haven't play tested the card and am intrigued, hoping for some knowledge here.
I agree entirely here. I think the space is much better filled with other things, particularly selfless spirits, rec sages, etc... (other sideboard cards in mainboard slots for game 1 utility)
I played tks to a top 8 finish. Basically, I used it to fight anger, bolts and the two decks we have a hard time with: shapeshifter variant and tron. It can also come against control, burn and creatureless combo. I put them in the sideboard and used them in tandem with discard. Now I am exploring options with counterspell. What it basically does is give us a transformational sideboard.
Not 100% convinced, but it worked before foe me, so now I'm trying it with UG.
Is there a reason that nobody runs Scryb Ranger?
It has obvious synergies with the deck, so therefore i'll test this in the future.
Green @ it's best
Do you have a link? I'm always interested in seeing what people are running.
I think the clunkiness stems from not being able to rely solely on Archdruid, Heritage, Llanowar, or Mystic's mana output. Whether I run eldrazi or shaman, I have to keep a land up to produce their color and this sometimes restricts me from vomiting my hand out. It's not often it happens but when it does happen it makes my plays slower. I actually think that a big reason why GW lists have made it to GP top 8s - unlike GB or GxC - is because their mana base is consistent. Also canopies and White's strong sideboard selection helps.
I do like the thought of GWC for the reasons I mentioned and because Boreal Druid produces Eldrazi's mana and it doesn't ping me unlike Elves of Deep Shadow if I'd want to cast Shaman off of it. This is of course just my 2 cents. I could very well be wrong and see a GBc list in the next GP.
Lastly despite me being critical about Non-Gw lists, I still see their potential. Afterall, my favorite build is GB,
GBRJund Elves
GWDevoted Elves
WDeath & Taxes
GWUBRHumans
EDH:
GTitania, Protector of Argoth
My link should be below my signature. I ran them for a top 8 finish.
Good questions and very good analysis. In short, I think GB's mana base is clunky, if you are trying to run them down with Ezuri or dump your hand as fast as possible. The interesting thing I find is that GBs game plan is not primarily trying to dump enough dudes to go wide, but to chip away with Shaman damage. Thus, elfballing is more difficult with GB, but our game plan is not trying to Elfball all the time, but to switch from elfballing to beatdown. An example would be playing shaman when you only have two dudes on board. In the case with GW, you would want to go wide and drop many creatures with the mana dorks, but the thing that makes GB unique is its ability to shift focus to a Shaman chip and beatdown. This makes elfballing and consequently Ezuri over-run as one of the ways to win and not the way to win. That's where the beauty and versatility of GB comes into play.
In terms of GW winning or placing top 8 lists, I believe that is primarily in the American metagame. Ever since Shaman was spoiled, GB has been piloted to good finishes here in Japan. I think, maybe, culture plays a big roll in people's preferences in playstyle. An example would be when the Vizier combo was released into the metagame. America was all over the combo and fitting them into Elves, but here in Japan, it simply experimented and I don't find many players who fully embraced it. Of course, that could be my metagame here near Osaka.
BGElvesBG and BUGNissa ElvesBUG Faithful Elfer since May 1st, 2015
Results: SCG IQ Top 8, Monthly Modern Masters Top 4
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Nettle Sentinel
4 Dwynen's Elite
3 Elvish Visionary
4 Elvish Archdruid
2 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
4 Shaman of the Pack
2 Throne of the God-Pharaoh
2 Chord of Calling
2 Lead the Stampede
4 Collected Company
Lands:18
3 Blooming Marsh
4 Cavern of Souls
5 Forest
4 Gilt-Leaf Palace
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Westvale AbbeY
2 Essence Warden
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Spellskite
1 Elvish Champion
2 Reclamation Sage
1 Chameleon Colossus
2 Lead the Stampede
1 Creeping Corrosion
3 Stain the Mind
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Boreal Druid
1 Elves of Deep Shadow
4 Dwynen's Elite
3 Elvish Visionary
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Shaman of the Pack
3 Thoughtknot Seer
3 thoughtseize
4 Collected Company
Lands:18
4 Blooming Marsh
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Gilt-Leaf Palace
4 Llanowar Wastes
2 Forests
Do you think that this deck will work ?
1 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Gilt-Leaf Palace
2 Blooming Marsh
1 Westvale Abbey
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Razorverge Thicket
Spells:8
1 Lead the Stampede
2 Chord of Calling
4 Collected Company
1 Blossoming Defense
3 Elvish Mystic
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Copperhorn Scout
1 Elves of Deep Shadow
4 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
2 Elvish Visionary
4 Dwynen's Elite
4 Shaman of the Pack
4 Elvish Archdruid
2 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
Side:15
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Fatal Push
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Beast Within
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Stain the Mind
2 Chord of Calling
Vintage Powered Cube
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EDH decks
RGWUOmnath, Locus of Creation
1RWBKaalia of the Vast
Because you could use Surgical Extraction, Inquisition of Kozilek Thoughtseize or Stain the mind
If you remove the Brain maggot the card comes back in the hand, and in mtg there's a LOT of creature removal:
- Anger of the gods
- Lightning Bolt
- Path to exile
- Lightning Helix
- Dismember
- Supreme Verdict
- Damnation
- Collective Brutality
- Fatal push
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RGWUOmnath, Locus of Creation
1RWBKaalia of the Vast
Thoughtseize is good vs Scapeshift, Tasigur, the Golden Fang, Master of Waves, Supreme Verdict some planeswalkers and Tron (Karn Liberated and Ugin, the Spirit Dragon), I think that Inquisition of Kozilek wll work very well. The majority of the cards have 3, or less as mana cost, in the other decks. Modern is too fast to play big cards.
I'm using Gaddock Teeg + Stain the Mind right now. I just want to prevent him to play his big cards and to prevent the combos.
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Remaining Good Cards Cube
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EDH decks
RGWUOmnath, Locus of Creation
1RWBKaalia of the Vast
Or how about Collective Brutality instead?
You don't care. He does -2-2 to Archdruid or Ezuri and then you put another one. If he doesn't clear the board, you could win. If you want, put Spellskite or Blossoming Defense (I have 1 in mainboard), this could help.
Vintage Powered Cube
Remaining Good Cards Cube
Worst Cards Cube
EDH decks
RGWUOmnath, Locus of Creation
1RWBKaalia of the Vast
I'm asking as a sideboard option in place of Thoughtseize. Lol
Personally I would cut the elves of deep shadow for a one of Ezuri. Gives an alt win plan and a toolbox regen ability. Not sure I'd maindeck thoughtseize either, would almost certainly run Chord or Lead in those 3 slots.
Boreal, wastes, and cavern give 12 colorless sources for TNS, seems good enough.
Perhaps just some ignorance on my part, just curious what void people see this card filling in the deck.
Doesn't seem like something we'd want to Chord for, isn't an elf, and can't Company into it. Those seem like three pretty large strikes for a deck that assumes much of its power from synergy amongst those cards. Especially if we're going to be jamming 3-4 of them main. Admittedly I haven't play tested the card and am intrigued, hoping for some knowledge here.
Don't forget to consider Duress. It's going to hit all those sweepers, plus planeswalkers, troublesome artifact, etc. Duress will come down more quickly than Stain. If it were me I'd be between Duress and Inquisition.
How about Collective Brutality instead of Duress?
I agree entirely here. I think the space is much better filled with other things, particularly selfless spirits, rec sages, etc... (other sideboard cards in mainboard slots for game 1 utility)
True, but you can Chord and coco brain Maggot
I played tks to a top 8 finish. Basically, I used it to fight anger, bolts and the two decks we have a hard time with: shapeshifter variant and tron. It can also come against control, burn and creatureless combo. I put them in the sideboard and used them in tandem with discard. Now I am exploring options with counterspell. What it basically does is give us a transformational sideboard.
Not 100% convinced, but it worked before foe me, so now I'm trying it with UG.
BGElvesBG and BUGNissa ElvesBUG Faithful Elfer since May 1st, 2015
Results: SCG IQ Top 8, Monthly Modern Masters Top 4