There are up- and downsides between RIP and SE making it hard to objectively compare them. Dredge only really runs two different creatures, Amalgam and Bloodghast, and extracting one of the two greatly reduces their clock. RIP does shut them off entirely until it leaves the battlefield, but that's why all dredge lists run discard and enchantment hate
SE has the advantage of being live turn 1, and hitting amalgams and/or bloodghasts is huge. Getting to flash it back on the other is back breaking. RIP does completely shut them down, but is slower and is vulverable to natures claim/decay etc. Both seem like very reasonable options, and SE plays a little nicer with the rest of our deck, as the expense of not being quite as autowin as a RIP that sticks.
It seems it's like pulling teeth to make people realize what cards are actually good in here but I'm game. A couple weeks ago everyone and their mother were claiming relic was better and that they would all continue playing relic. Where did all those folks go? Oh, most of them are on RIP. Why do I run 2 RIP and 1 Ravenous Trap? Because I like to diversify my hate. Surgical is ok, but not nearly as good as Trap or RIP, Crypt is alos much stronger than Surgical.
Well, if you are talking about diversity, Surgical Extraction is not as good as the hardcore GY hate, but is more versatile. And they are prepared against permanent based hate, but can't handle things like SE or Ravenous Trap. Another good thing is that you can SE turn 1 and flashback it turn 2 if you need to. If I only had 1 slot, I would play 1 RIP. And I would play a SE before a second RIP
I believe WoTC's new policy is to make sure that every color can enjoy the exciting gameplay mechanic of making undercosted dudes and then turning them sideways. Clearly the future of magic.
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Agreed on Surgical Extraction not being as good as something like Ravenous Trap or Rest in Peace. Unlike more tempo-oriented decks, Jeskai Nahiri isn't going to Surgical then apply a quick clock to pressure Dredge. You need more definitive answers.
If Surgical fires off THREE times and still can't beat Dredge there is something mighty wrong with that strategy.
This doesn't really means anything by itself. It's just 1 match against an unknown opponent, and we don't know what did he target with SE. BBD says that he beat him down with GGT, and that one should be at least one of the first 3 cards you target with surgical extraction against dredge.
I'm not defending SE (I play none at the moment), and as I stated before I think is not as powerful as the other options because it doesn't exile the whole GY... It's like comparing Path to Exile vs Wrath of God in the aggro matchups. The card may be bad/not so good here, but that's not the reason.
I believe WoTC's new policy is to make sure that every color can enjoy the exciting gameplay mechanic of making undercosted dudes and then turning them sideways. Clearly the future of magic.
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Don't think I can travel up to Brisbane during that time. Shame. Will have to test with people though.
My plan is May GP Beijing and GP Kobe July (I think is) GP Shanghai and then later in the year GP Hong Kong. If I cash any of them i might consider adding another. Or if I some how am close to silver.
Playing SE is like saying that you should be bluffing your opponent. It can work some of the time, but when it goes badly you lose the game. With RIP, you're always getting at least some value with permanently exiled cards. RIP is the superior effect and playing worse effects for a small window of opportunity where it is equivalent to RIP in effect (more in cost) is nonsense.
Relic is bad because it's single use and allows the opponent to play around it if you keep it in play. RIP nukes graveyards and forces them to answer it or you win. SE can be responded to, can fail, and can end up doing nothing to help you win the game. I see no reason to play the other cards over the one which is clearly the best.
Playing SE is like saying that you should be bluffing your opponent. It can work some of the time, but when it goes badly you lose the game. With RIP, you're always getting at least some value with permanently exiled cards. RIP is the superior effect and playing worse effects for a small window of opportunity where it is equivalent to RIP in effect (more in cost) is nonsense.
Relic is bad because it's single use and allows the opponent to play around it if you keep it in play. RIP nukes graveyards and forces them to answer it or you win. SE can be responded to, can fail, and can end up doing nothing to help you win the game. I see no reason to play the other cards over the one which is clearly the best.
I really wish we could put to bed this argument about RIP making your snapcasters worse. It's such a trivial point that it bears no repeating but for those that still are unsure. RIP is a hoser card. It's there to WIN THE GAME. It will win straight up (in Jeskai) versus Dredge which is a VERY popular deck. It also beats Living End and Reanimator (which ar eminor considerations but they do exist.)
When you play against Dredge their entire deck focuses on the graveyard, trading "a free lighting bolt or Serum Visions" from your snapcaster is perfectly reasonable when your opponent CAN'T FUNCTION. Get it out of your heads that snapcasters flashback is vital to your deck once you've neutered graveyards. It isn't. You are likely going to be able to beat down with your snaps because your deck is full of bolts, helix, Path, Anger, and Nahiri which ALL EXILE!!! with RIP in play.
Learn how to use your snapcasters better so that you aren't reliant on the flashback ability. Do you know how many jund opponents dropped Grafdiggers cage on me and I still beat them?
Relic slows you down and you are likely to get run over. You don't play Thought-Knot seer or reality smasher. If you want to play that kind of effect just run Tormod's Crypt, it's ZERO mana to cast and pop. Relic is two and you might be dead before you find yourself with the two mana, or you might hold it up instead of casting visions, nahiri, etc. Relic...is a relic...at least for now.
Goblin Dark-Dwellers: Seems reasonably good with Anger of the Gods or Ancestral Vision, if you can make the play. The combo with Boom // Bust is also there, but I'm not whether it's better than other options (and thus whether GDD is really the right choice in the first place)...
I don't see what the point is. Transformative sideboards are supposed to catch your opponent off guard AND get easy wins against decks you normally don't have a good chance to beat. Against what deck does the sideboard "cuteness" come in?
Boom // Bust is an awkward card to work with. The Boom half requires you to have a fetch land on turn 3 (or Flagstones of Trokair on turn 2) before you can do the first half of your shenanigans. Otherwise, you're setting yourself behind for phase 2 of your shenanigans. The Bust side requires you to make it to turn 5 without interference. I would try playing with it before you advocate for this type of thing.
Crumble to Dust and Blood Moon are just straight up better, and none of these swing the match in our favor anyway. Crumble is usually too slow for Tron and worthless against Bant Eldrazi. Blood Moon is hard for us to play (but I have seen it done) and hoses Eldrazi but not Tron. If you think you're going to wait until turn 5 to do stuff to either of those decks' mana base and win, congratulate your dealer on finding you some premium stuff.
Goblin Dark-Dwellers: Seems reasonably good with Anger of the Gods or Ancestral Vision, if you can make the play. The combo with Boom // Bust is also there, but I'm not whether it's better than other options (and thus whether GDD is really the right choice in the first place)...
There were also one Jeskai Flash (with Spell Queller and Blade Splicer!) and two Jeskai Aggro decks in the top 32.
Edit: Clarified phrasing.
Could you imagine how well we'd do if people were actually playing with better lists? The reason we don't see higher results (more top 8) is that very few players will go towards a single list. You have a lot of subpar lists out there. The boom/bust plan is comically bad.
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It seems it's like pulling teeth to make people realize what cards are actually good in here but I'm game. A couple weeks ago everyone and their mother were claiming relic was better and that they would all continue playing relic. Where did all those folks go? Oh, most of them are on RIP. Why do I run 2 RIP and 1 Ravenous Trap? Because I like to diversify my hate. Surgical is ok, but not nearly as good as Trap or RIP, Crypt is alos much stronger than Surgical.
If Surgical fires off THREE times and still can't beat Dredge there is something mighty wrong with that strategy.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
This doesn't really means anything by itself. It's just 1 match against an unknown opponent, and we don't know what did he target with SE. BBD says that he beat him down with GGT, and that one should be at least one of the first 3 cards you target with surgical extraction against dredge.
I'm not defending SE (I play none at the moment), and as I stated before I think is not as powerful as the other options because it doesn't exile the whole GY... It's like comparing Path to Exile vs Wrath of God in the aggro matchups. The card may be bad/not so good here, but that's not the reason.
UWR Control
Legacy:
W D&T
I guess I'll just keep up with things till then...
UWR Control
Legacy:
W D&T
My plan is May GP Beijing and GP Kobe July (I think is) GP Shanghai and then later in the year GP Hong Kong. If I cash any of them i might consider adding another. Or if I some how am close to silver.
Relic is bad because it's single use and allows the opponent to play around it if you keep it in play. RIP nukes graveyards and forces them to answer it or you win. SE can be responded to, can fail, and can end up doing nothing to help you win the game. I see no reason to play the other cards over the one which is clearly the best.
UWR Control
Legacy:
W D&T
I really wish we could put to bed this argument about RIP making your snapcasters worse. It's such a trivial point that it bears no repeating but for those that still are unsure. RIP is a hoser card. It's there to WIN THE GAME. It will win straight up (in Jeskai) versus Dredge which is a VERY popular deck. It also beats Living End and Reanimator (which ar eminor considerations but they do exist.)
When you play against Dredge their entire deck focuses on the graveyard, trading "a free lighting bolt or Serum Visions" from your snapcaster is perfectly reasonable when your opponent CAN'T FUNCTION. Get it out of your heads that snapcasters flashback is vital to your deck once you've neutered graveyards. It isn't. You are likely going to be able to beat down with your snaps because your deck is full of bolts, helix, Path, Anger, and Nahiri which ALL EXILE!!! with RIP in play.
Learn how to use your snapcasters better so that you aren't reliant on the flashback ability. Do you know how many jund opponents dropped Grafdiggers cage on me and I still beat them?
Relic slows you down and you are likely to get run over. You don't play Thought-Knot seer or reality smasher. If you want to play that kind of effect just run Tormod's Crypt, it's ZERO mana to cast and pop. Relic is two and you might be dead before you find yourself with the two mana, or you might hold it up instead of casting visions, nahiri, etc. Relic...is a relic...at least for now.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=109524
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Vendilion Clique
Planeswalkers (4)
4 Nahiri, the Harbinger
Lands (23)
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Arid Mesa
2 Celestial Colonnade
4 Flooded Strand
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Spirebluff Canal
2 Steam Vents
2 Sulfur Falls
2 Cryptic Command
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Lightning Helix
1 Negate
4 Path to Exile
3 Remand
2 Spell Snare
3 Ancestral Vision
2 Anger of the Gods
4 Serum Visions
2 Goblin Dark-Dwellers
1 Stony Silence
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Dispel
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Wear // Tear
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
3 Boom // Bust
1 Supreme Verdict
Some interesting choices:
There were also one Jeskai Flash (with Spell Queller and Blade Splicer!) and two Jeskai Aggro decks in the top 32.
Edit: Clarified phrasing.
1 boombust
2 gob dark dwells
3 profit
Better off turning those 3 Boom // Bust into Crumble to Dust or Blood Moon, brah.
Crumble to Dust and Blood Moon are just straight up better, and none of these swing the match in our favor anyway. Crumble is usually too slow for Tron and worthless against Bant Eldrazi. Blood Moon is hard for us to play (but I have seen it done) and hoses Eldrazi but not Tron. If you think you're going to wait until turn 5 to do stuff to either of those decks' mana base and win, congratulate your dealer on finding you some premium stuff.
Could you imagine how well we'd do if people were actually playing with better lists? The reason we don't see higher results (more top 8) is that very few players will go towards a single list. You have a lot of subpar lists out there. The boom/bust plan is comically bad.