When dredge used to play dangerous wager and the like as their discard, I liked counterspells a lot more.
Now, countering conflagrate is basically the major important thing, and we don't want to overload on counterspells just for that.
Otherwise, I've almost never won with nahiri in this matchup. Rarely does nahiri get to sit in play ticking up til you win, because they deploy too many threats, but playing something to exile creatures (amalgams even etb tapped) and eat up some damage is pretty nice.
I disagree with that; Dredge has a ton of good counterspell targets. Countering Cathartic Reunion and Faithless Looting limits them to just their draw step which now is not more than a 5-cards deep dredge. I think that is a much more effective gameplan than trying to slow them down with spot removal and I think I'd rather take out Lightning Bolt
I agree with taking out Emrakul. The opponent doesn't know you've done it so Nahiri still has the mindgame threat value. Nahiri gives you time and deals with creatures.
But they see Nahiri as a threat because summoning Emrakul is still, well, threathening. Them devoting resources to stopping Nahiri is great, but actually succeeding with Nahiri is even better. You could argue that once Nahiri sticks we've basically already won, but that goes for a lot more matchups and an Emrakul swing is still much faster and safer than tapping out for Celestial Colonnade four times
As of now, this is the sideboard plan I am considering
Do you never miss being able to fetch Emrakul? Although the Annihilator trigger does not matter too much to them, 15 damage tends to oneshot them and they can basically never block it. I see the logic but would worry about stealing my own win away. And what do you think about boarding in Negates, as countering their self-discard spells is so powerful?
I'm not saying it's 100% correct. Perhaps it's wrong but here's my reasoning. I've played the match-up a lot and I rarely get to tick up Nahiri to 8 and untap like that. First of all I'm almost always under the gun in game one and Nahiri goes -2 to exile a dude and then eats 2 damage on the way back (if I'm not already dead). I feel like if I am ticking up Nahiri like that then something is very wrong for the dredge player. I must have a RIP or got a very nice Anger sweep. So I think ticking her up to high loyalty and grinding them to deck is not much worse. TL;DR-I don't think there is much upside to leaving in Emrakul, but drawing it and usually never having the luxury of discarding is a major downside. I never anticipate having the time to discard that card unless I'm already winning, which means I don't need Emrakul.
Otherwise I trim a few card like one of each counterspell because occasionally you get that 3 couterspell hand or 2 counterspells plus keep drawing more and then I usually die. While have a couple AV could still ensure a nice hand refill.
I did mention earlier that I would rather cut lightning bolt over plenty of other cards.
While I agree that countering some of their draw spells are important, I think spell snares and mana leaks are usually enough for this. I don't like to also bring in more negates to do this.
FWIW, most of my wins against dredge are due to them decking themselves, or them just losing to rest in piece and dying to a ham sandwich.
If their devoting major resources to deal with nahiri, then thats multiple turns in which they aren't getting closer to winning.
Though sometimes I'll leave in the visions and not bring in the verdicts, but I'm not sure how I feel about that, as I haven't played enough matches like that to decide.
I did mention earlier that I would rather cut lightning bolt over plenty of other cards.
While I agree that countering some of their draw spells are important, I think spell snares and mana leaks are usually enough for this. I don't like to also bring in more negates to do this.
FWIW, most of my wins against dredge are due to them decking themselves, or them just losing to rest in piece and dying to a ham sandwich.
If their devoting major resources to deal with nahiri, then thats multiple turns in which they aren't getting closer to winning.
Though sometimes I'll leave in the visions and not bring in the verdicts, but I'm not sure how I feel about that, as I haven't played enough matches like that to decide.
You'll find verdict does all most nothing as most dredge players leave a fetchland, so when you wrath they can fetch at the end of your mainphase and get all the creatures back AND attacking the next turn.
I'm still playing it sideboard for local meta reasons, but I suspect bant eldrazi is gonna come back in a big way. Even if you don't mainboard verdicts, I think you'll need some in the 75.
I'm still playing it sideboard for local meta reasons, but I suspect bant eldrazi is gonna come back in a big way. Even if you don't mainboard verdicts, I think you'll need some in the 75.
Local meta could be justified but in an open field I think it's a waste of space. You have to fight the Eldrazi deck card for card, play tight and get a little lucky. I never found verdict to be as impactful as my other sideboard cards would be in other important match-ups. Not like that deck needs to play out tons of big guys. And they can steal the verdict and force you try to top deck a one of...and then beat you anyway.
I updated the primer, (finally) adding a bant eldrazi and dredge matchup guide. I also rewrote the other matchup guides a bit, mostly removing pointless information as many of them read too long.
If anyone has suggestions or notices errors (html, spelling or gameplaywise) I'd be very happy to hear it.
I'm an aspiring modern player and have been accumulating cards for UWR control for a while. I've got about half of the deck right now, especially the cheaper spells like Serum Visions, Lightning helix, Mana Leak, Remand, Timely Reinforcements, Electrolyze, Lightning Bolt, Anger of the Gods, etc. I also have a scalding tarn, a playset of flooded strand (though one of them is damaged to the point that it may not be tournament legal), 5 shocks and one of each of the on-color check lands.
Few questions:
Which is more important: Nahiri or Colonnade? I'm missing both the Nahiri package and the Celestial Colonnades and I'm wondering which to get first if I see trade opportunity/get funds. I do have one copy of Nahiri already.
For budget concerns, I'm planning to forego the Ancestral Visions entirely. I do have Snapcaster Mages and a Cryptic, though. Is it unreasonable to run Think Twice? They're cheap and I already own two, but I don't know whether I need the extra card draw. I'm also looking at running Goblin Darkdwellers as a finisher/card advantage generator in my first budget-ish draft if my LGS has a modern event.
I am speculating, but I bet Colonnade gets reprinted in MM3. I'm betting Nahiri comes down in price too but later. If you don't want to wait as long maybe start with Nahiri and see what gets spoiled. I also lack the Nahiri package and Emrakul.
Imo, yoy can play uwr without nahiri as a viable deck. Nahiri should probably after everything except maybe tarns or mesa. You cam also get away with two or three colonnade instead of the whole set.
I'm an aspiring modern player and have been accumulating cards for UWR control for a while. I've got about half of the deck right now, especially the cheaper spells like Serum Visions, Lightning helix, Mana Leak, Remand, Timely Reinforcements, Electrolyze, Lightning Bolt, Anger of the Gods, etc. I also have a scalding tarn, a playset of flooded strand (though one of them is damaged to the point that it may not be tournament legal), 5 shocks and one of each of the on-color check lands.
Few questions:
Which is more important: Nahiri or Colonnade? I'm missing both the Nahiri package and the Celestial Colonnades and I'm wondering which to get first if I see trade opportunity/get funds. I do have one copy of Nahiri already.
For budget concerns, I'm planning to forego the Ancestral Visions entirely. I do have Snapcaster Mages and a Cryptic, though. Is it unreasonable to run Think Twice? They're cheap and I already own two, but I don't know whether I need the extra card draw. I'm also looking at running Goblin Darkdwellers as a finisher/card advantage generator in my first budget-ish draft if my LGS has a modern event.
If you don't run AV, you should try to get your card advantage from other sources. I'd recommend running two Cryptic Commands and one or two Electrolyzes. I don't think Think Twice is worth it unless you plan to go REALLY long like Esper Control does.
Nahiri vs Colonnade is a toss-up of what you want to do; Nahiri is the best Jeskai wincon, but not the only one. Colonnade is very important in the jeskai build but probably the least important in Nahiri builds. Nevertheless you would need to buy other cards to serve as wincons which is kind of counterproductive if you want to save money; the five slots spent on the Nahiri combo should be spent on wincons in any build (sphinx rev, resto angel, other planeswalkers)
@JohnSwift, I would argue that Celestial Colonnade is more important than Nahiri. Even with the Nahiri package, I often still get wins with just Colonnade beats and Bolt-Snap-Bolt. As someone said earlier though, you definitely don't need a play set. Two or three of them will work fine depending on what your build looks like.
I agree. Colonnade is one of the most effective tools for UWR, whether you're running control, flash, Nahiri, or otherwise. I am currently on four because I love it so much in a 24 land build of Nahiri.
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Modern decks: BGRDredgevineBGR UWRJeskai ControlUWR
I'm an aspiring modern player and have been accumulating cards for UWR control for a while. I've got about half of the deck right now, especially the cheaper spells like Serum Visions, Lightning helix, Mana Leak, Remand, Timely Reinforcements, Electrolyze, Lightning Bolt, Anger of the Gods, etc. I also have a scalding tarn, a playset of flooded strand (though one of them is damaged to the point that it may not be tournament legal), 5 shocks and one of each of the on-color check lands.
Few questions:
Which is more important: Nahiri or Colonnade? I'm missing both the Nahiri package and the Celestial Colonnades and I'm wondering which to get first if I see trade opportunity/get funds. I do have one copy of Nahiri already.
For budget concerns, I'm planning to forego the Ancestral Visions entirely. I do have Snapcaster Mages and a Cryptic, though. Is it unreasonable to run Think Twice? They're cheap and I already own two, but I don't know whether I need the extra card draw. I'm also looking at running Goblin Darkdwellers as a finisher/card advantage generator in my first budget-ish draft if my LGS has a modern event.
Hi JohnSwift!
Welcome to Jeskai
IMO Colonnade is more important, wait to modern master, and if WOC dont reprint him, buy it.
This deck is a more draw and go version, but is great. Dont run Ancestral or nahiri, you can complete the deckilst faster, and then wait for nahiri and ancestral.
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Modern: Jeskai control / Jeskai Geist
Death and taxes / UW control
I'm an aspiring modern player and have been accumulating cards for UWR control for a while. I've got about half of the deck right now, especially the cheaper spells like Serum Visions, Lightning helix, Mana Leak, Remand, Timely Reinforcements, Electrolyze, Lightning Bolt, Anger of the Gods, etc. I also have a scalding tarn, a playset of flooded strand (though one of them is damaged to the point that it may not be tournament legal), 5 shocks and one of each of the on-color check lands.
Few questions:
Which is more important: Nahiri or Colonnade? I'm missing both the Nahiri package and the Celestial Colonnades and I'm wondering which to get first if I see trade opportunity/get funds. I do have one copy of Nahiri already.
For budget concerns, I'm planning to forego the Ancestral Visions entirely. I do have Snapcaster Mages and a Cryptic, though. Is it unreasonable to run Think Twice? They're cheap and I already own two, but I don't know whether I need the extra card draw. I'm also looking at running Goblin Darkdwellers as a finisher/card advantage generator in my first budget-ish draft if my LGS has a modern event.
If you don't run AV, you should try to get your card advantage from other sources. I'd recommend running two Cryptic Commands and one or two Electrolyzes. I don't think Think Twice is worth it unless you plan to go REALLY long like Esper Control does.
Nahiri vs Colonnade is a toss-up of what you want to do; Nahiri is the best Jeskai wincon, but not the only one. Colonnade is very important in the jeskai build but probably the least important in Nahiri builds. Nevertheless you would need to buy other cards to serve as wincons which is kind of counterproductive if you want to save money; the five slots spent on the Nahiri combo should be spent on wincons in any build (sphinx rev, resto angel, other planeswalkers)
I am very fond of electrolyze, but I'm not entirely sure when it's good and when to chuck it. Obviously it's good against lingering souls, so you keep it in against Abzan It seems excellent also against infect and affinity, since each of those decks has a bunch of x/1 creatures, and it's instant speed, so it can hit their manlands. But what about in other matchups where it's not obviously good, like tron, dredge, jund, etc.?
On Colonnade vs Nahiri, I think that I understand everyone's reasoning. It does seem like a waste of money to buy an alternative win con like Kiki-angel, but it might not be so bad to grab an Elspeth or Gideon, since when I have Nahiris+Emrakul I can always stick them in the side to board in against midrange decks like jund and abzan.
Also, do you guys ever side out the Nahiri package entirely?
I do sometimes.
Rarely, as the deck is sort of built around it, but sometimes you either side it out and bring in alternate wincons (geist, clique, elspeth, etc) with the game plan of being unpredictable. Usually once in three games. I usually only do this against counterspell heavy decks, or against decks I simply can not afford to tap out against at any point (ad nauseum for example), and even then, not consistently.
I've also been experimenting with it against blue based tron.
Without a decent amount of dedicated hate, that matchup is so incredibly miserable for our normal gameplan that lightning bolt + manaleak.dec can often feel like a better plan.
That being said, for the cryptic command versions of the deck, siding out nahiri usually doesn't feel as bad, but nahiri is in the deck for a reason, and kind of revitalized the deck because of how powerful and versatile it is.
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I disagree with that; Dredge has a ton of good counterspell targets. Countering Cathartic Reunion and Faithless Looting limits them to just their draw step which now is not more than a 5-cards deep dredge. I think that is a much more effective gameplan than trying to slow them down with spot removal and I think I'd rather take out Lightning Bolt
But they see Nahiri as a threat because summoning Emrakul is still, well, threathening. Them devoting resources to stopping Nahiri is great, but actually succeeding with Nahiri is even better. You could argue that once Nahiri sticks we've basically already won, but that goes for a lot more matchups and an Emrakul swing is still much faster and safer than tapping out for Celestial Colonnade four times
As of now, this is the sideboard plan I am considering
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Nahiri, the Harbinger
4 Serum Visions
3 Ancestral Vision
3 Mana Leak
2 Remand
2 Spell Snare
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Celestial Colonnade
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
2 Hallowed Fountain
1 Steam Vents
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
3 Spirebluff Canal
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Negate
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2 Rest in Peace
2 Crumble to Dust
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Engineered Explosives
-3 AV
-2 Bolt
-1 Clique
+2 RIP
+2 Negate
+1 Anger
+1 Staticaster
I'm not saying it's 100% correct. Perhaps it's wrong but here's my reasoning. I've played the match-up a lot and I rarely get to tick up Nahiri to 8 and untap like that. First of all I'm almost always under the gun in game one and Nahiri goes -2 to exile a dude and then eats 2 damage on the way back (if I'm not already dead). I feel like if I am ticking up Nahiri like that then something is very wrong for the dredge player. I must have a RIP or got a very nice Anger sweep. So I think ticking her up to high loyalty and grinding them to deck is not much worse. TL;DR-I don't think there is much upside to leaving in Emrakul, but drawing it and usually never having the luxury of discarding is a major downside. I never anticipate having the time to discard that card unless I'm already winning, which means I don't need Emrakul.
Otherwise I trim a few card like one of each counterspell because occasionally you get that 3 couterspell hand or 2 counterspells plus keep drawing more and then I usually die. While have a couple AV could still ensure a nice hand refill.
While I agree that countering some of their draw spells are important, I think spell snares and mana leaks are usually enough for this. I don't like to also bring in more negates to do this.
FWIW, most of my wins against dredge are due to them decking themselves, or them just losing to rest in piece and dying to a ham sandwich.
If their devoting major resources to deal with nahiri, then thats multiple turns in which they aren't getting closer to winning.
My current plan is something like this:
4 serum visions
4 ancestral visions
4 lightning bolt
4 lightning helix
4 path to exile
2 anger of the gods
2 spell snare
3 mana leak
1 izzet charm
4 snapcaster mage
4 nahiri, the harbinger
1 emrakul, the aeons torn
2 vendilion clique
2 rest in peace
2 negate
1 wear/tear
2 crumble to dust
2 supreme verdict
1 izzet staticaster
2 runed halo
My plan is something like:
+1 ee
+2 rest in peace
+2 runed halo
+1 izzet staticaster
+2 supreme verdict
-4 lightning bolt
-1 emrakul
-1 izzet charm
-2 ancestral visions
Though sometimes I'll leave in the visions and not bring in the verdicts, but I'm not sure how I feel about that, as I haven't played enough matches like that to decide.
You'll find verdict does all most nothing as most dredge players leave a fetchland, so when you wrath they can fetch at the end of your mainphase and get all the creatures back AND attacking the next turn.
UWR Control
Legacy:
W D&T
Local meta could be justified but in an open field I think it's a waste of space. You have to fight the Eldrazi deck card for card, play tight and get a little lucky. I never found verdict to be as impactful as my other sideboard cards would be in other important match-ups. Not like that deck needs to play out tons of big guys. And they can steal the verdict and force you try to top deck a one of...and then beat you anyway.
If anyone has suggestions or notices errors (html, spelling or gameplaywise) I'd be very happy to hear it.
I'm an aspiring modern player and have been accumulating cards for UWR control for a while. I've got about half of the deck right now, especially the cheaper spells like Serum Visions, Lightning helix, Mana Leak, Remand, Timely Reinforcements, Electrolyze, Lightning Bolt, Anger of the Gods, etc. I also have a scalding tarn, a playset of flooded strand (though one of them is damaged to the point that it may not be tournament legal), 5 shocks and one of each of the on-color check lands.
Few questions:
Which is more important: Nahiri or Colonnade? I'm missing both the Nahiri package and the Celestial Colonnades and I'm wondering which to get first if I see trade opportunity/get funds. I do have one copy of Nahiri already.
For budget concerns, I'm planning to forego the Ancestral Visions entirely. I do have Snapcaster Mages and a Cryptic, though. Is it unreasonable to run Think Twice? They're cheap and I already own two, but I don't know whether I need the extra card draw. I'm also looking at running Goblin Darkdwellers as a finisher/card advantage generator in my first budget-ish draft if my LGS has a modern event.
I'm deleting my MTGS account today.
I'm done dealing with the moderation here at MTGS.
Good luck in the future with your decks!
If you don't run AV, you should try to get your card advantage from other sources. I'd recommend running two Cryptic Commands and one or two Electrolyzes. I don't think Think Twice is worth it unless you plan to go REALLY long like Esper Control does.
Nahiri vs Colonnade is a toss-up of what you want to do; Nahiri is the best Jeskai wincon, but not the only one. Colonnade is very important in the jeskai build but probably the least important in Nahiri builds. Nevertheless you would need to buy other cards to serve as wincons which is kind of counterproductive if you want to save money; the five slots spent on the Nahiri combo should be spent on wincons in any build (sphinx rev, resto angel, other planeswalkers)
Why do you think anyone cares? Just delete it if that's what you're going to do.
BGRDredgevineBGR
UWRJeskai ControlUWR
Pauper:
GMono-Green AggroG
MTGO Username: creamy99
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Check it out for the latest testing, gameplay, and dailies!
Hi JohnSwift!
Welcome to Jeskai
IMO Colonnade is more important, wait to modern master, and if WOC dont reprint him, buy it.
I recomend you start with this list or something similar: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/484464#online
This deck is a more draw and go version, but is great. Dont run Ancestral or nahiri, you can complete the deckilst faster, and then wait for nahiri and ancestral.
Death and taxes / UW control
I am very fond of electrolyze, but I'm not entirely sure when it's good and when to chuck it. Obviously it's good against lingering souls, so you keep it in against Abzan It seems excellent also against infect and affinity, since each of those decks has a bunch of x/1 creatures, and it's instant speed, so it can hit their manlands. But what about in other matchups where it's not obviously good, like tron, dredge, jund, etc.?
On Colonnade vs Nahiri, I think that I understand everyone's reasoning. It does seem like a waste of money to buy an alternative win con like Kiki-angel, but it might not be so bad to grab an Elspeth or Gideon, since when I have Nahiris+Emrakul I can always stick them in the side to board in against midrange decks like jund and abzan.
Also, do you guys ever side out the Nahiri package entirely?
Rarely, as the deck is sort of built around it, but sometimes you either side it out and bring in alternate wincons (geist, clique, elspeth, etc) with the game plan of being unpredictable. Usually once in three games. I usually only do this against counterspell heavy decks, or against decks I simply can not afford to tap out against at any point (ad nauseum for example), and even then, not consistently.
I've also been experimenting with it against blue based tron.
Without a decent amount of dedicated hate, that matchup is so incredibly miserable for our normal gameplan that lightning bolt + manaleak.dec can often feel like a better plan.
That being said, for the cryptic command versions of the deck, siding out nahiri usually doesn't feel as bad, but nahiri is in the deck for a reason, and kind of revitalized the deck because of how powerful and versatile it is.