MTG Salvation

Quote from AnteaterTamer »

Quote from tronix »

the thing is that the matchup has always floated around the 50/50 region, with us slightly favored going into the lategame. now its closer to even more than ever before.

...

i actually think its a very fun matchup to play

Agreed. Both decks have received some new tools, and I think that BBE probably pushes it to be slightly unfavorable for Jeskai, but it's still a very winnable match. And more importantly, a very enjoyable match. If I could guarantee that 50% of my matches were against Jund rather than the flavor-of-the-month linear creature aggro or uninteractive ramp/combo, I'd play a lot more Modern.

i hear that

funny how fair decks are engaged in this meta sub-game then tron just shows up to crash the party. help is on the way though with damping sphere if we want to dedicate SB slots.

the mardu matchup is also really close too. young pyromancer and lingering souls forces us to use sweepers before we want to, and if they ever resolve what is functionally a RR Ancestral Recall on a stick...well its bad.

we actually need some fast beatdown decks to step up and keep people in check. in turn we beat up on those decks all day.

unless its dredge...god that matchup is awful

yeah i just lumped jund and mardu together and was talking about midrange matchups in general.

i agree that there are a lot of edges to be gained by good decision making. sequencing cantrips, azcanta activations, and jace brainstorms gives so many options that its pretty much impossible to find the optimal line.

jund is also a difficult deck to pilot well. good jund players will bait and continue making tempo positive plays until they can find an opening. i expect a lot of people to pick up jeskai and jund (especially jund) in the days to come, and a lot wont understand the nuances of navigating the games.

we will have to agree to disagree about BBE. jace is an amazing card, and a boost in power for us. however i think what jund gained in BBE is greater - to the point where it is basically a different deck. we on the other hand are just doing the same thing, but just slightly better at it.

also we could tune our decks to just be outright favored against them. jamming a bunch of AVs and upping our curve to the 5-6 range. however doing that would cost a lot of percentage against many other decks in the field.

I kind of agree with both of you on some points. I feel like your perspectives are a bit different though. Without sources of raw card advantage that tempo Jeskai never had, it could be an extremely difficult match up for the long haul. If you were on a hard control version, however, I find it hard to imagine that you weren't playing Sphinx's Revelation or enough Search for Azcanta to get the long game advantage. Of course, if you let your opponent's Dark Confidant live, you'll never recover. Kolaghan's Command is indeed great so you have to be aware of lines your opponent is trying to setup and what risks you're willing to accept.

I agree with theAller, from what I've experienced and what the BGx players I talk to say, Jeskai is moderately favoured. I still think that is the case after the unbans. Bloodbraid is powerful because of Cascade, but the actual creature part of the card is fairly inconsequential apart from having to be wary when to play Jace. Especially postboard you can trade it easily for a blocking snap or a burnspell, which, although they still gained CA, is manageable


Also very important interaction to know: if they cascade into either Liliana, you get to bolt her before they get a chance to activate it as the Bloodbraid Elf itself is still on the stack.

i win about as much as i lose against post-unban jund. i run 2 jaces with a gideon in the 75.

to me its pretty clear who the experienced jund pilots are when you play though

I must have serious work to do then, because while sometimes I feel those games where its a blow out, it goes both ways. Maybe I need that Sphinx Rev back in the deck. Azcanta has a target on it's back, and while the games go long, I dont seem to have the inevitability I need.

Its not just you. I'm shocked so many people don't think the matchup is much worse.
Its not unwinnable, but we saw jace decks getting demolished on camera all weekend. It seems difficult to argue that the matchup is not much worse than its been in the past.
If jace were more reliable, that might be one thing, but those decks are full of ways to effectively answer him.

Quote from tronix »

we could tune our decks to just be outright favored against them. jamming a bunch of AVs and upping our curve to the 5-6 range. however doing that would cost a lot of percentage against many other decks in the field.

I give up, what does "jamming a bunch of AVs" mean? Thanks.

It means playing multiple copes of ancestral visions, often to the point of constructing our deck around the card, or functionally depending on it.

Well of course it's gotten worse, objectively. Jund wasn't even a deck before the unban. I do still think we are favoured, however. And of course it does matter what your sideboard is; I think it is a very good idea to run two Celestial Purges now, for example.

Instead of going yes no yes no on whether it's a bad matchup or not, maybe we should discuss how to beat the deck instead; how do you board, what is your gameplan?

Quote from Bearscape »

Well of course it's gotten worse, objectively. Jund wasn't even a deck before the unban. I do still think we are favoured, however. And of course it does matter what your sideboard is; I think it is a very good idea to run two Celestial Purges now, for example.

Instead of going yes no yes no on whether it's a bad matchup or not, maybe we should discuss how to beat the deck instead; how do you board, what is your gameplan?

My current plan is to switch to a deck that counters Bloodbraid Jund. I HATE that deck My favorite deck is Jeskai but I hate Jund so bad I would switch to something that beats it if I had to.

I mean, I've said before that I think jeskai is poorly positioned right now.
In the past jeskai was basically the "beat all the aggro decks, be decent vs midrange/control, lose to all the anti-control decks"
The problem is that some of the aggro decks aren't as good matchups any more (dredge/hollow one, bogles, etc) and midrange isn't as good anymore either.

I think a lot of people are sort of building their decks wrong too, but in general, decks like esper, grixis, or blue moon seem to gain more out of the current meta.

I think certainly, looking at a number of decks from this past weekend, if you are not already considering 'anti-discard' draw, in the form of AV, and/or Rev, then those need to be considered. The format has slowed down in some ways but I think we are going to see it shift towards the aggressive decks considering Infect, Storm both saw success again.

There's a Modern GP this weekend. Will be interesting to see what turns up.

I'd love to see your buddy's configuration of Jund. Its the only deck that I still sit back and go 'wow, what a beating that was'.

for me im alright with just telling people the matchup is even and that knowledge of the matchup and good decision making will ultimately be the deciding factor.

what i try to get across to those new to the deck, or those inquiring about its positioning in the meta is that our matchup against grindy midrange decks has never been a slam dunk, not now or even before the unbans. even at the 60-40 you are still basically losing half the time given the players on each side of the table are of equal skill.

this ends up coming as a surprise to people because we are the "control" deck, and therefore should beat up on midrange. ive always said that jeskai is probably the weakest of the 3-color control variants at grinding. our strength lies in dealing with creature aggression, which grixis and esper typically have a little harder time with.

but i agree, we dont really get anywhere just discussing what we think is true, and are better served discussion options such as card choices, sideboard strategies, and general tips in the matchup.

as a side note if you guys wanna see an absolute beating - check out the Jim Davis (jeskai) vs. Brennan Decandio (4c pyro) match from the SCG Dallas coverage. definitely wince-worthy.

Quote from tronix »

for me im alright with just telling people the matchup is even and that knowledge of the matchup and good decision making will ultimately be the deciding factor.

what i try to get across to those new to the deck, or those inquiring about its positioning in the meta is that our matchup against grindy midrange decks has never been a slam dunk, not now or even before the unbans. even at the 60-40 you are still basically losing half the time given the players on each side of the table are of equal skill.

this ends up coming as a surprise to people because we are the "control" deck, and therefore should beat up on midrange. ive always said that jeskai is probably the weakest of the 3-color control variants at grinding. our strength lies in dealing with creature aggression, which grixis and esper typically have a little harder time with.

but i agree, we dont really get anywhere just discussing what we think is true, and are better served discussion options such as card choices, sideboard strategies, and general tips in the matchup.

as a side note if you guys wanna see an absolute beating - check out the Jim Davis (jeskai) vs. Brennan Decandio (4c pyro) match from the SCG Dallas coverage. definitely wince-worthy.

where can I watch the game?

Quote from MCsoul06 »

Quote from tronix »

for me im alright with just telling people the matchup is even and that knowledge of the matchup and good decision making will ultimately be the deciding factor.

what i try to get across to those new to the deck, or those inquiring about its positioning in the meta is that our matchup against grindy midrange decks has never been a slam dunk, not now or even before the unbans. even at the 60-40 you are still basically losing half the time given the players on each side of the table are of equal skill.

this ends up coming as a surprise to people because we are the "control" deck, and therefore should beat up on midrange. ive always said that jeskai is probably the weakest of the 3-color control variants at grinding. our strength lies in dealing with creature aggression, which grixis and esper typically have a little harder time with.

but i agree, we dont really get anywhere just discussing what we think is true, and are better served discussion options such as card choices, sideboard strategies, and general tips in the matchup.

as a side note if you guys wanna see an absolute beating - check out the Jim Davis (jeskai) vs. Brennan Decandio (4c pyro) match from the SCG Dallas coverage. definitely wince-worthy.

where can I watch the game?

ah sorry i meant Ben Nikolich on jeskai, not Jim Davis

vs. Ben Nikolich - https://www.twitch.tv/videos/237339509?t=03h37m50s

Just want to chime in and say snap-anything is a clean 1-for-1 answer to BBE+cascade PROVIDED your snap target deals with the cascade spell.

Snap trades with BBE after all.

UWx is a meta archetype. Our deck will continue to be a little behind the meta for a while until we all come up with new ways to approach the meta. But we DO have the answers Still, and considering BBE simply gave Jund parity with snapcaster 2-for-1's, the addition of Jace will eventually see UWx regain its meta power. We just have to figure out what our new answers are.

yeah we got a lot of good stuff going on. still super high on azcanta, love that card.

one of the most key aspects of the matchup is recognizing what is important at various points in the game. which only really comes with experience. choosing to fight over stuff that doesnt matter can easily decide a game. like fighting over discard, trying to maximize your sweepers, protecting your jace or azcanta, or making inefficient plays to deal with a threat if it improves your position later on.

celestial purge is awesome right now. same with elspeth. still not a fan of geist, the floor on the card is just way too low. not entirely sold on settle the wreckage yet. dont have enough experience to judge restoration angel. d-sphere is too much of a liability for my liking. think 1 spell snare is the right place to be.

Have you guys looked at the new Teferi at all? Teferi, Hero Of Dominaria?

5 mana, but replaces itself, untaps a few lands, mega bounces a creature...I'll be trying him out for sure.

In other news, I cant quit this deck, even if I get frustrated at times with each game being this endurance run as soon as we drop Island and Serum.