You need your lands. The correct number is 24, regardless of you running Opt or Serum Visions. You can only cut a couple of them if you run both cantrips at the same time.
I'm actually feeling better with 6 cantrips and 23 lands than 24 lands and 4 cantrips. The electrolyze is the card that inboard out the most and really feel like i don't want more than 1. Sure when it hits those 2 for 1 I feel really good but that isn't something that happens often.
6 cantrips and 23 lands is fine.
What I was saying is that switching from SV to Opt doesn't change the number of lands you need, 24 remains the correct number, so regardless of which one of the two cantrips you play you're still in the same position in regard of lands.
According to Frank Karsten, one scry counts as roughly 0,20 colored sources, whereas one card draw/cantrip counts as roughly 0,25 colored sources, so one Serum Visions in the deck will count as ~0,65 lands while one Opt in the deck will count as ~0,45 lands. [EDIT]That means you you can play ~0,8 (almost 1) less lands with a playset of Serum Visions compared to a playset of Opt.
How to Account for Fetchlands, Mana Creatures, and Card Draw Spells?
Basic lands are simple. A Plains counts as a white source, and a Forest counts as a green source. But what if (contrary to what I initially assumed) the deck contains non-land mana sources as well? The numbers in my tables should still act as good guidelines, but does a Birds of Paradise or Serum Visions count as a full colored mana source? A good rule of thumb is to count fragile mana producers (e.g., Birds of Paradise or Deathrite Shaman) as half a colored mana source, to count any cheap cantrip (e.g., Remand or Peek) as 0.25 colored sources, and to count any cheap scry card (e.g., Temples) as 0.2 colored sources.
From another angle, when you play Serum Visions you have information about 3 cards before you choose whether to bottom anything, while you only have information about 1 card when you play Opt, so you have a lot more information to make your best decision.
I'm tired of the Opt vs SV argument as noone is ever convincing anyone of anything ever, but I do want to say; there is nothing "marginal" about SV's addition to your land drops, as there is nothing subjective here; Frank Kartsten straight up did the math. X cantrips and Y scrying gives you a probability of seeing Z lands, the same amount as adding lands would increase the probability. This is all objective math.
That is not the entirety of the story as you actually need to cast cantrips, which is why playing 20 cantrips with 18 lands is a very bad idea even if the math works out, and Opt's instant speed gives you more room to cast it even though SV is more powerful statisticallly. THAT is where the wiggle room lies and where some people prefer 6 cantrips or 4, or SV or Opt. But let's just please God stop arguing what land base "feels right" or how scrying is "marginal" when the objective data is available
I've chosen to run halo over Mom and Dad for a couple reasons.
1) TitanShift is pretty big right now, and Halo/Relic is a very effective plan against Shadow. Halo is also good against Eldrazi Tron when you slap it on TKS or Smasher.
2) I've never really been impressed with Mom and Dad except in the mirror, and I'm not really sure where to side her in.
I think you guys are making a mistake playing opt over serum.
This isn't Grixis where everything is 1 mana minus snaps and K-Command.
This deck relies on a bunch of 3 drops and Colonnade.
Seems wrong not to be playing the jeskai flash/tempo versions that have been getting results, gets a little frustrating when these threads get congested.
I've chosen to run halo over Mom and Dad for a couple reasons.
1) TitanShift is pretty big right now, and Halo/Relic is a very effective plan against Shadow. Halo is also good against Eldrazi Tron when you slap it on TKS or Smasher.
2) I've never really been impressed with Mom and Dad except in the mirror, and I'm not really sure where to side her in.
Thanks!
My 2 cents - ignore as required
I'm not a huge fan of 7 cantrips - id prefer to go with 6 and add in a 4th (non-cryptic) counterspell like mana leak or snare or maybe a V. Clique (thus opening up a sb slot).
If playing only 3 helix I get a bit nervous about Burn. Thus I like sb Gideon of the Trials as its amazing against burn and has utility in matchups where Geist is not so good and/or where the emblem is useful.
Supreme Verdict vs Dusk // Dawn vs Settle the Wreckage - Each of these sweepers has positive/negative aspects - but Im personally not playing any verdicts in Geist/Queller lists - too much collateral damage for my liking.
Im loving Engineered Explosives and some number of Ceremonious Rejection atm..
I wouldn't normally pay much attention to a League list but pilot Awesum_Rosum has put up a fair share of results online and in paper. I've wanted to try Search for Azcanta in Modern but I hadn't considered it in the Jeskai Queller shell. I imagine it makes those 3 Logic Knots a lot better.
Awesum_Rosum is Jonathan Rosum. I got this list from him earlier this week, and I kinda like it in a way.
It'll take some getting used to, but I think I might like it a bit. I probably won't play it, but it's up for opinion.
I've chosen to run halo over Mom and Dad for a couple reasons.
1) TitanShift is pretty big right now, and Halo/Relic is a very effective plan against Shadow. Halo is also good against Eldrazi Tron when you slap it on TKS or Smasher.
2) I've never really been impressed with Mom and Dad except in the mirror, and I'm not really sure where to side her in.
Thanks!
My 2 cents - ignore as required
I'm not a huge fan of 7 cantrips - id prefer to go with 6 and add in a 4th (non-cryptic) counterspell like mana leak or snare or maybe a V. Clique (thus opening up a sb slot).
If playing only 3 helix I get a bit nervous about Burn. Thus I like sb Gideon of the Trials as its amazing against burn and has utility in matchups where Geist is not so good and/or where the emblem is useful.
Supreme Verdict vs Dusk // Dawn vs Settle the Wreckage - Each of these sweepers has positive/negative aspects - but Im personally not playing any verdicts in Geist/Queller lists - too much collateral damage for my liking.
Im loving Engineered Explosives and some number of Ceremonious Rejection atm..
Yeah. I'm probably gonna play a split of 1/1 Verdict/Settle.
i don't really like azcanta.. at least in jeskai tempo shells... if you are on the tempo plan then both sides of it is pretty do nothing because you really want to concentrate on interacting or doing damage.... it does not really need consistent card advantage in most matchups.. and certainly doesn't want to take multiple turns off to do it... you're also a lot more vulnerable to gy hate.... i do kind of like it for traditional jeskai ajani control lists tho...
I'd like to discuss sideboarding a bit, as this is still very much all over the place when I look at different lists. Many run some number lf relics, which I am not a fan of but might just be a necessary evil if ignoring grave decks is not an option
I often find myself with a lack of good wincons postboard in matchups where I'd like to board out geist, so either boarding out geist is just entirely wrong or some alternative wincons are needed to come in
I'd like to discuss sideboarding a bit, as this is still very much all over the place when I look at different lists. Many run some number lf relics, which I am not a fan of but might just be a necessary evil if ignoring grave decks is not an option
I often find myself with a lack of good wincons postboard in matchups where I'd like to board out geist, so either boarding out geist is just entirely wrong or some alternative wincons are needed to come in
I'm still on RIP in the side with only 2 logic knots in the main-deck. I would feel uncomfortable without any form of GY hate, and have often considered swapping to relic.
I like 2x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar out of the sideboard, but Firer and others have been using Pia and Kiran Nalaar (not sold on her, I prefer Gideon AOZ). Lately I have been running 1x Gideon of the Trials and 1x Gideon AOZ in the side and have liked it so much that I've considered adding another copy of either one into the 75. But I feel that would be excessive...
AOZ is just such a house in attrition MU's and increases sideboard strength against E-Tron. When I first tested him it was to replace Elspeth, Sun's Champion in the sideboard and he won me more games in my first few weeks than Elspeth did in months.
The main MU's that I board Geist of Saint Traft out in are Affinity and E-Tron but I'm not sure if it is a) necessary to board out against affinity or b) good to board out against E-Tron. I try to leave him in in as many MU's as possible.
I have been off Rest in Peace since the down tick in Grixis Death's Shadow happened. The only deck I see with any frequency that still keeps it kind of relevant is Vizier Elves and that's in paper magic. So I've dumped Rest in Peace for Relic of Progenitus. I would rather have the re-draw than a hard counter to Dredge and other graveyard-based shenanigans.
@TheAller, Feel free to do whatever you want. Your arguments, if you want to call them that, are still bad. Just because everyone is doing something doesn't make it "correct." For every "because he did it," I'm sure I could find a counter. It's an extremely poor way to argue a position so even if you're "right," who's going to listen? If you're going to argue about something being "correct," show me something reasonable. Personally, I couldn't care less which way everyone goes in Opt vs Serum Visions debate. I say figure it out on your own. It's really not that important or interesting.
Seeing Opt more online could simply be a result of people testing the card by the way. Testing that over Serum Visions doesn't make or break the deck since as people have noted the "difference is marginal."
Aller, you have to be careful assuming because opt is being used online that it's now the preference. Mtgo is exactly where people test this. I think about two major paper tournaments will confirm what's better.
The deck durdles too much without 3x geist in my opinion. It feels right to sometimes just get 1 swing in and burn them out. Being too reactive in modern is overall a bad game plan.
Chsos, restoration angel is a so so option. I will tell you that this deck used to run angels instead of quellers and received minimal attention. Feel free to test but it's not an amazing option.
Watching great nate, who is a very long time grinder of this deck, I don't think he boards it out much. He's more than happy to clear a path or get 1 connect in and bolt snap bolt the rest
Like i said, this deck becomes a bad UW control deck/burn deck when you start overloading on reaction. Just my opinion.
Clique is diruption and information. The body is just a bonus. I'm seeing too many tier 2 and 3 decks lately in paper and online that I need the info. If the format were less wide open, I agree on not wanting it main deck. When it's the wild west out there, a little info goes a long way.
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Any body tried Search for Azcanta in the jeskai geist or control? How was it?
Ty
According to Frank Karsten, one scry counts as roughly 0,20 colored sources, whereas one card draw/cantrip counts as roughly 0,25 colored sources, so one Serum Visions in the deck will count as ~0,65 lands while one Opt in the deck will count as ~0,45 lands. [EDIT]That means you you can play ~0,8 (almost 1) less lands with a playset of Serum Visions compared to a playset of Opt.
https://www.channelfireball.com/articles/frank-analysis-how-many-colored-mana-sources-do-you-need-to-consistently-cast-your-spells/
From another angle, when you play Serum Visions you have information about 3 cards before you choose whether to bottom anything, while you only have information about 1 card when you play Opt, so you have a lot more information to make your best decision.
UWRUWR Delver/Lynx TempoUWR-------UWRUWR Midrange GeistUWR-------UWRUWR Nahiri ControlUWR-------UWRUWR SaheeliUWR
BGRJund / Jund ShadowBGR-------BGWAbzan / Abzan ShadowBGW
Commander (Leviathan/MTGO): UWGeist of Saint TraftUW
That is not the entirety of the story as you actually need to cast cantrips, which is why playing 20 cantrips with 18 lands is a very bad idea even if the math works out, and Opt's instant speed gives you more room to cast it even though SV is more powerful statisticallly. THAT is where the wiggle room lies and where some people prefer 6 cantrips or 4, or SV or Opt. But let's just please God stop arguing what land base "feels right" or how scrying is "marginal" when the objective data is available
4 Spell Queller
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Serum Visions
3x Cryptic Command
2x Electrolyze
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Lightning Helix
3x Logic Knot
3x Opt
4x Path to Exile
4x Flooded Strand
2x Hallowed Fountain
3x Island
1x Mountain
1x Plains
2x Polluted Delta
1x Sacred Foundry
2x Scalding Tarn
2x Steam Vents
2x Sulfur Falls
2x Disdainful Stroke
2x Dispel
1x Izzet Staticaster
1x Negate
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Runed Halo
2x Supreme Verdict
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Wear / Tear
I've chosen to run halo over Mom and Dad for a couple reasons.
1) TitanShift is pretty big right now, and Halo/Relic is a very effective plan against Shadow. Halo is also good against Eldrazi Tron when you slap it on TKS or Smasher.
2) I've never really been impressed with Mom and Dad except in the mirror, and I'm not really sure where to side her in.
Thanks!
UWR Control
BR Hollow One
This isn't Grixis where everything is 1 mana minus snaps and K-Command.
This deck relies on a bunch of 3 drops and Colonnade.
Seems wrong not to be playing the jeskai flash/tempo versions that have been getting results, gets a little frustrating when these threads get congested.
UWR Control
BR Hollow One
My 2 cents - ignore as required
I'm not a huge fan of 7 cantrips - id prefer to go with 6 and add in a 4th (non-cryptic) counterspell like mana leak or snare or maybe a V. Clique (thus opening up a sb slot).
If playing only 3 helix I get a bit nervous about Burn. Thus I like sb Gideon of the Trials as its amazing against burn and has utility in matchups where Geist is not so good and/or where the emblem is useful.
Supreme Verdict vs Dusk // Dawn vs Settle the Wreckage - Each of these sweepers has positive/negative aspects - but Im personally not playing any verdicts in Geist/Queller lists - too much collateral damage for my liking.
Im loving Engineered Explosives and some number of Ceremonious Rejection atm..
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
3 Spell Queller
3 Search for Azcanta
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
4 Serum Visions
2 Spell Snare
3 Lightning Helix
3 Logic Knot
2 Electrolyze
4 Cryptic Command
4 Flooded Strand
2 Hallowed Fountain
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
2 Sulfur Falls
1 Dispel
2 Relic of Progentius
1 Celestial Purge
2 Disdainful Stroke
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
1 Wear // Tear
I wouldn't normally pay much attention to a League list but pilot Awesum_Rosum has put up a fair share of results online and in paper. I've wanted to try Search for Azcanta in Modern but I hadn't considered it in the Jeskai Queller shell. I imagine it makes those 3 Logic Knots a lot better.
It'll take some getting used to, but I think I might like it a bit. I probably won't play it, but it's up for opinion.
UWR Control
BR Hollow One
Yeah. I'm probably gonna play a split of 1/1 Verdict/Settle.
Can't afford EE ATM.
Will test the 6 cantrips.
Thanks!
UWR Control
BR Hollow One
I often find myself with a lack of good wincons postboard in matchups where I'd like to board out geist, so either boarding out geist is just entirely wrong or some alternative wincons are needed to come in
I'm still on RIP in the side with only 2 logic knots in the main-deck. I would feel uncomfortable without any form of GY hate, and have often considered swapping to relic.
I like 2x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar out of the sideboard, but Firer and others have been using Pia and Kiran Nalaar (not sold on her, I prefer Gideon AOZ). Lately I have been running 1x Gideon of the Trials and 1x Gideon AOZ in the side and have liked it so much that I've considered adding another copy of either one into the 75. But I feel that would be excessive...
AOZ is just such a house in attrition MU's and increases sideboard strength against E-Tron. When I first tested him it was to replace Elspeth, Sun's Champion in the sideboard and he won me more games in my first few weeks than Elspeth did in months.
The main MU's that I board Geist of Saint Traft out in are Affinity and E-Tron but I'm not sure if it is a) necessary to board out against affinity or b) good to board out against E-Tron. I try to leave him in in as many MU's as possible.
Which MU's are we all boarding out Geist for atm?
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
I am feeling you on the need for more threats. I'm considering cutting 1 Geist of Saint Traft for Vendilion Clique in the main deck and keep another Clique in the sideboard. I have considered bringing back Restoration Angel and Gideon, Ally of Zendikar as well.
Seeing Opt more online could simply be a result of people testing the card by the way. Testing that over Serum Visions doesn't make or break the deck since as people have noted the "difference is marginal."
The deck durdles too much without 3x geist in my opinion. It feels right to sometimes just get 1 swing in and burn them out. Being too reactive in modern is overall a bad game plan.
Chsos, restoration angel is a so so option. I will tell you that this deck used to run angels instead of quellers and received minimal attention. Feel free to test but it's not an amazing option.
Watching great nate, who is a very long time grinder of this deck, I don't think he boards it out much. He's more than happy to clear a path or get 1 connect in and bolt snap bolt the rest
Like i said, this deck becomes a bad UW control deck/burn deck when you start overloading on reaction. Just my opinion.
Clique is way better as a sideboard option
I'd like to have a grasp on what's bad and what's good for matchups