Eldrazi Tron is tier 1. You can't afford that type of reasoning if you want to play in any relevant tournament. Maybe if you're lucky you don't have any E Tron pilot in your local store, but in any big event, you'll have to face them and if you're not prepared they will utterly crush you.
When you play a tourney... you have to dodge or overcome unfavorable things along the way... every deck goes through it and every t1 deck has other unfavorable matchups that they have to deal with and not all of them devote narroe sb cards specifically for it...
Its not like i dont bring in sideboard cards but they are cards that are powerful in the other unfavorable matchups also... and i favor those over rejection or disdainful stroke or spreading seas... deck slots are prime real estate...
Eldrazi Tron is one of the most-played deck. If you don't have a strong sideboard plan against it you are preparing to fail. You don't just hope to dodge a super popular deck so you can play a lot of vanilla sideboard cards that barely swing % in other match-ups.
Just because you dont side in rejection or a bunch of other narrow cards doesnt mean its more effective... my argument is that you can be just as effective with other cards without being so narrow because those cards have limited applications in the matchup...
Rejection vs cavern or chalice gets hosed... disdainful stroke still has the cavern problem and left with basically only 6-8 targets in the deck... they have effective answers to those cards...
What they dont have effective answers for are enchantments and creatures... thats why i love stony in the matchup... i also like detention sphere as a catchall for chalices or whatever they resolved... i also like nevermore or meddling mage for things that i cant handle at that moment... i also bring in leylines depending on how im feeling... you need a more proactive plan against them...
And those cards have much wider applications... but again the matchup is not close to favorable even if you bring in 10 cards... so the best thing in my mind is to compromise and try to bring up your overall mwp instead of concentrating on one and hopefully not sacrifice as much in that one...
Just because you dont side in rejection or a bunch of other narrow cards doesnt mean its more effective... my argument is that you can be just as effective with other cards without being so narrow because those cards have limited applications in the matchup...
Rejection vs cavern or chalice gets hosed... disdainful stroke still has the cavern problem and left with basically only 6-8 targets in the deck... they have effective answers to those cards...
What they dont have effective answers for are enchantments and creatures... thats why i love stony in the matchup... i also like detention sphere as a catchall for chalices or whatever they resolved... i also like nevermore or meddling mage for things that i cant handle at that moment... i also bring in leylines depending on how im feeling... you need a more proactive plan against them...
And those cards have much wider applications... but again the matchup is not close to favorable even if you bring in 10 cards... so the best thing in my mind is to compromise and try to bring up your overall mwp instead of concentrating on one and hopefully not sacrifice as much in that one...
Stony doesn't do anything against Eldrazi Tron. What are you talking about? And it's absolutely favorable postboard if you have good cards to bring in.
I ran Ajani for a few months but can't give a comprehensive answer. He has a lot of utility against the field at the mmoent. I felt like there was almost never a MU that I WANTED to take him out of my main-deck for apart from the obvious decks that you can't tap out on turn 4 against (storm, ad-naus, scapeshift, etc). I'll leave it to somebody with more experience to give a better answer than that.
@chaos021
In a geist/queller list I bring in Supreme Verdict for;
Eldrazi Tron
Death's Shadow
Jeskai Geist mirror
Junk
Jund
Elves
Affinity (mainly for etched champion)
Hatebear
Merfolk
Bant builds and Druid Combo depending on variant (be aware not to open yourself up for EoT Coco and Chord)
Zoo
Grixis Control (singleton depending on what threats they run)
Living End (depending on other sideboard cards available)
And that's just my take on it... definitely strong in the format right now.
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Stony does things. It turns off map/mindstone (minimal) batterskull (reasonable) ballista (reasonable), basilisk collar (occasionally meaningful), relic (reasonable), hangarback walker (occasionally meaningful), and sometimes other things. Its not amazing, sometimes not worth bringing in, but it does have some uses.
I have to agree with TappingStones in that Stony Silence is not the best sideboard aganst EldraziTron - it really only hits Walking Ballista, which isn't the biggest threat to us usually.
I also don't consider Ceremonious Rejection 'narrow'... the text says 'Counter target colorless spell' not 'cCounter target Eldrazi-Tron spell'. This means rejection is actually great against all the decks Stony Silence is great against. It doesn't HOSE the decks but it is still very, very good if you know what to counter with it.
Afinity
Lantern Control
KCI Combo
Regular Tron
In addition it can't be said that Rejection is 'bad against chalice' because it counters chalice for less mana than chalice costs to cast. This is the definition of efficiency. If both you and your E-tron opponent start out with the respective cards in your opening 7, your rejection will beat his Chalice as he will only be able to cast it turn 2, when you will have 1 or 2 blue sources up. This is the only counter outside of spell snare and spell pierce to deal with chalice x=1 when on the draw.
Now that I've had more game time in the EldraTron MU I would say that I feel quite confident in games 2 and 3. If they don't draw their cavern in their opening hand I feel about 60-40 in my favour post-board. If they draw their cavern in the opening 7 then I feel more 50/50, but even then Rejection stops all their artifacts, all is dust, karn, and ugin, and walking ballista.
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The list of things Stony Silence hits in EldraTron is smaller now that most lists don't run Mind Stone and Hangerback Walker. Basilisk Collar is usually a 1-of. Batterskull has disappeared from most lists I see too, although sometimes they will still run it in the sideboard.
I had forgotten about Stony turning off Relic, that increses the value for me, but still not by much.
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On the other hand, a deck I think we can afford to "hope to dodge" is Dredge. To me, it doesn't see nearly enough play to warrant 3-4 of our sideboard slots for things like RIP or Relic. And even if it were to become more popular again, my first reaction would be 2x Anger of the Gods, not RIP.
I agree with the first part - dredge is a deck you can realistically hope to dodge. I still wouldn't leave home without graveyard hate in the sideboard though, whether it is Relic or RIP, because I see a lot of living end and Gifts Ungiven where I play.
If dredge was the only graveyard deck I saw every week then I would be happy enough with Anger of the Gods, but it's not unfortunately!
By the way... and this may fuel the fire a bit more, but in his post-win interview at SCG Louisville, Harlan Firer said that our E-Tron match-up was bad enough for him to decide to remove all sideboard against it and hope to dodge it. Then he won the whole thing. But his list had a significantly better MU vs. Valakut thanks to the main-deck spell snares and sideboard disdainful strokes. He also packed relics in his sideboard. He obviously was hedging his bets hoping to dodge E-Tron but heavily reinforced his 75 against the other major players.
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On the other hand, a deck I think we can afford to "hope to dodge" is Dredge. To me, it doesn't see nearly enough play to warrant 3-4 of our sideboard slots for things like RIP or Relic. And even if it were to become more popular again, my first reaction would be 2x Anger of the Gods, not RIP.
I agree with the first part - dredge is a deck you can realistically hope to dodge. I still wouldn't leave home without graveyard hate in the sideboard though, whether it is Relic or RIP, because I see a lot of living end and Gifts Ungiven where I play.
If dredge was the only graveyard deck I saw every week then I would be happy enough with Anger of the Gods, but it's not unfortunately!
By the way... and this may fuel the fire a bit more, but in his post-win interview at SCG Louisville, Harlan Firer said that our E-Tron match-up was bad enough for him to decide to remove all sideboard against it and hope to dodge it. Then he won the whole thing. But his list had a significantly better MU vs. Valakut thanks to the main-deck spell snares and sideboard disdainful strokes. He also packed relics in his sideboard. He obviously was hedging his bets hoping to dodge E-Tron but heavily reinforced his 75 against the other major players.
Take this with a grain of salt... but Disdainful stroke is good vs Eldrazi Tron. I don't know what his sideboarding plan was, but it looks like he had several cards that could be good vs Eldrazi. Albit not specific. Didn't see that interview but seems kind of strange given his 75. Unless he is saying he didn't think specific hate was worth it (aka rejection). That would make more sense. And I would tend to agree.
EDIT: Disdainful Stroke, Wear / Tear, Supreme Verdict, and even potentially Pia is good vs Eldrazi. Though those are not "specific" answers to Eldrazi.
His change was to drop all copies of Ceremonious Rejection. His justification was that he feels Eldrazi Tron is starting to get hated on by the format, and the decks that are preying on ETron are really good match-ups for Jeskai (the ones he names are Valakut and Storm). So instead of sideboarding FOR ETron he built his deck to beat a field looking to beat ETron!
Valakut and Storm also have a plethora of targets for Spell Snare.
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His change was to drop all copies of Ceremonious Rejection. His justification was that he feels Eldrazi Tron is starting to get hated on by the format, and the decks that are preying on ETron are really good match-ups for Jeskai (the ones he names are Valakut and Storm). So instead of sideboarding FOR ETron he built his deck to beat a field looking to beat ETron!
Valakut and Storm also have a plethora of targets for Spell Snare.
Yea that makes sense. In my opinion though dropping Ceremonious Rejection for Disdainful Stroke isn't a huge change.
And thank you for the link! watching now.
Yea that makes sense. In my opinion though dropping Ceremonious Rejection for Disdainful Stroke isn't a huge change.
And thank you for the link! watching now.
No worries! Disdainful stroke is good Vs. Valakut (Hits Scapeshift, PrimeTime, Chandra, Hour of Promise), which Ceremonious Rejection doesn't help us with.
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Yea that makes sense. In my opinion though dropping Ceremonious Rejection for Disdainful Stroke isn't a huge change.
And thank you for the link! watching now.
No worries! Disdainful stroke is good Vs. Valakut (Hits Scapeshift, PrimeTime, Chandra, Hour of Promise), which Ceremonious Rejection doesn't help us with.
Yep. I get that :D. What do you think of Pia? What decks would you even side it in vs? 0_o
I'm thinking I might replace elspeth with it though.
The problem with rejection is that you will draw less rejections in your opening than etron will with chalice... they will also have more caverns(map). they have 10 ways to deal with it.. and your targets will only be karn and ballista...
Stony will at least slow them down.. without map they have a hard time getting cavern, temple and tron and its really the key card that drives their midgame consistency... theyll need 2 out of 3 to get going... and in the late game it hoses ballista... relic is also a bad card vs you if you leave in your logic knots... it's also better than rejection in the other artifact matchups... proactive is almost always where you want to be...
Im not here to convince ppl that these are the best cards in the matchup.. but rather introduce a diff way to think about it... i dont think any jeskai pilot is having luck against etron so i think exploring less talked about options is healthy...
i play mostly on modo so i have played every matchup extensively so its not coming from just theory... im also not a perfect player which is why i think these discussions can help not only me but for others...
His change was to drop all copies of Ceremonious Rejection. His justification was that he feels Eldrazi Tron is starting to get hated on by the format, and the decks that are preying on ETron are really good match-ups for Jeskai (the ones he names are Valakut and Storm). So instead of sideboarding FOR ETron he built his deck to beat a field looking to beat ETron!
Valakut and Storm also have a plethora of targets for Spell Snare.
Thanks for sharing. Interesting to hear his rationale for those changes.
Yea, who cares about those cards. Prismatic omen is the only one that bothers me, and they run 0-1. If it matters, we have other counterspells, and can always cryptic bounce it.
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Eldrazi Tron is one of the most-played deck. If you don't have a strong sideboard plan against it you are preparing to fail. You don't just hope to dodge a super popular deck so you can play a lot of vanilla sideboard cards that barely swing % in other match-ups.
Rejection vs cavern or chalice gets hosed... disdainful stroke still has the cavern problem and left with basically only 6-8 targets in the deck... they have effective answers to those cards...
What they dont have effective answers for are enchantments and creatures... thats why i love stony in the matchup... i also like detention sphere as a catchall for chalices or whatever they resolved... i also like nevermore or meddling mage for things that i cant handle at that moment... i also bring in leylines depending on how im feeling... you need a more proactive plan against them...
And those cards have much wider applications... but again the matchup is not close to favorable even if you bring in 10 cards... so the best thing in my mind is to compromise and try to bring up your overall mwp instead of concentrating on one and hopefully not sacrifice as much in that one...
Stony doesn't do anything against Eldrazi Tron. What are you talking about? And it's absolutely favorable postboard if you have good cards to bring in.
I ran Ajani for a few months but can't give a comprehensive answer. He has a lot of utility against the field at the mmoent. I felt like there was almost never a MU that I WANTED to take him out of my main-deck for apart from the obvious decks that you can't tap out on turn 4 against (storm, ad-naus, scapeshift, etc). I'll leave it to somebody with more experience to give a better answer than that.
@chaos021
In a geist/queller list I bring in Supreme Verdict for;
Eldrazi Tron
Death's Shadow
Jeskai Geist mirror
Junk
Jund
Elves
Affinity (mainly for etched champion)
Hatebear
Merfolk
Bant builds and Druid Combo depending on variant (be aware not to open yourself up for EoT Coco and Chord)
Zoo
Grixis Control (singleton depending on what threats they run)
Living End (depending on other sideboard cards available)
And that's just my take on it... definitely strong in the format right now.
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
I have to agree with TappingStones in that Stony Silence is not the best sideboard aganst EldraziTron - it really only hits Walking Ballista, which isn't the biggest threat to us usually.
I also don't consider Ceremonious Rejection 'narrow'... the text says 'Counter target colorless spell' not 'cCounter target Eldrazi-Tron spell'. This means rejection is actually great against all the decks Stony Silence is great against. It doesn't HOSE the decks but it is still very, very good if you know what to counter with it.
Afinity
Lantern Control
KCI Combo
Regular Tron
In addition it can't be said that Rejection is 'bad against chalice' because it counters chalice for less mana than chalice costs to cast. This is the definition of efficiency. If both you and your E-tron opponent start out with the respective cards in your opening 7, your rejection will beat his Chalice as he will only be able to cast it turn 2, when you will have 1 or 2 blue sources up. This is the only counter outside of spell snare and spell pierce to deal with chalice x=1 when on the draw.
Now that I've had more game time in the EldraTron MU I would say that I feel quite confident in games 2 and 3. If they don't draw their cavern in their opening hand I feel about 60-40 in my favour post-board. If they draw their cavern in the opening 7 then I feel more 50/50, but even then Rejection stops all their artifacts, all is dust, karn, and ugin, and walking ballista.
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
The list of things Stony Silence hits in EldraTron is smaller now that most lists don't run Mind Stone and Hangerback Walker. Basilisk Collar is usually a 1-of. Batterskull has disappeared from most lists I see too, although sometimes they will still run it in the sideboard.
I had forgotten about Stony turning off Relic, that increses the value for me, but still not by much.
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
I agree with the first part - dredge is a deck you can realistically hope to dodge. I still wouldn't leave home without graveyard hate in the sideboard though, whether it is Relic or RIP, because I see a lot of living end and Gifts Ungiven where I play.
If dredge was the only graveyard deck I saw every week then I would be happy enough with Anger of the Gods, but it's not unfortunately!
By the way... and this may fuel the fire a bit more, but in his post-win interview at SCG Louisville, Harlan Firer said that our E-Tron match-up was bad enough for him to decide to remove all sideboard against it and hope to dodge it. Then he won the whole thing. But his list had a significantly better MU vs. Valakut thanks to the main-deck spell snares and sideboard disdainful strokes. He also packed relics in his sideboard. He obviously was hedging his bets hoping to dodge E-Tron but heavily reinforced his 75 against the other major players.
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
Take this with a grain of salt... but Disdainful stroke is good vs Eldrazi Tron. I don't know what his sideboarding plan was, but it looks like he had several cards that could be good vs Eldrazi. Albit not specific. Didn't see that interview but seems kind of strange given his 75. Unless he is saying he didn't think specific hate was worth it (aka rejection). That would make more sense. And I would tend to agree.
EDIT: Disdainful Stroke, Wear / Tear, Supreme Verdict, and even potentially Pia is good vs Eldrazi. Though those are not "specific" answers to Eldrazi.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RO7RETOYtU0&index=26&list=PL5d1KNNFArSOF6O8dcPKOr0PZpH58rsqa
His change was to drop all copies of Ceremonious Rejection. His justification was that he feels Eldrazi Tron is starting to get hated on by the format, and the decks that are preying on ETron are really good match-ups for Jeskai (the ones he names are Valakut and Storm). So instead of sideboarding FOR ETron he built his deck to beat a field looking to beat ETron!
Valakut and Storm also have a plethora of targets for Spell Snare.
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
Yea that makes sense. In my opinion though dropping Ceremonious Rejection for Disdainful Stroke isn't a huge change.
And thank you for the link! watching now.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
No worries! Disdainful stroke is good Vs. Valakut (Hits Scapeshift, PrimeTime, Chandra, Hour of Promise), which Ceremonious Rejection doesn't help us with.
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
Yep. I get that :D. What do you think of Pia? What decks would you even side it in vs? 0_o
I'm thinking I might replace elspeth with it though.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Stony will at least slow them down.. without map they have a hard time getting cavern, temple and tron and its really the key card that drives their midgame consistency... theyll need 2 out of 3 to get going... and in the late game it hoses ballista... relic is also a bad card vs you if you leave in your logic knots... it's also better than rejection in the other artifact matchups... proactive is almost always where you want to be...
Im not here to convince ppl that these are the best cards in the matchup.. but rather introduce a diff way to think about it... i dont think any jeskai pilot is having luck against etron so i think exploring less talked about options is healthy...
i play mostly on modo so i have played every matchup extensively so its not coming from just theory... im also not a perfect player which is why i think these discussions can help not only me but for others...
Thanks for sharing. Interesting to hear his rationale for those changes.
you would still side it out?
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA