Is Jeskai Harbinger all but dead? It occurred to me that it is not so different from JTMS. Of course, JTMS is the most powerful Planeswalker ever, but they are really similar: they draw cards, protect themselves and hava game-winning ultimates. Nahiri may be weaker, but is generally quicker in achieving it. Or is Jace's +0 Brainstorm ability the actual deal-sealer?
My intention is not to begin a banlist discussion (I don't intend it to sound that way). This talk is merely because Nahiri also costs 4 and is played at sorcery speed. With either Planewalker you have to play at sorcery speed at least 1 turn. And also they share some similarities as stated above. And today's meta is vastly different from a year ago, when Harbinger was all the rage. So if one is theoretically playable, can the other be? Maybe it can be revisited, probably with an updated build better suited to these times? Lightning Bolt / Lightning Helix are quite relevant, seeing Affinity, Burn, Counters Company are on the top. How would it fare against UW Control?
Yes, I posted a list for it recently in this format that is crushing right now. Run it, learn it, and win.
For me the card seems preatty good in most matchups, exept the very aggressive ones, in which it can be boarded out easily.
I used to run 2 of ancestral vision in my deck but ended up taking them out because they are too slow in the current format. It's an amazing turn one play when playing against fair decks but it becomes a huge burden to counterspells where you now have a dead card in your hand. It also stinks drawing it since the game will most likely be over by the time it resolves if not played on turn one.
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UU"Brute force can sometimes kick down a locked door, but knowledge is a skeleton key"UU
For me the card seems preatty good in most matchups, exept the very aggressive ones, in which it can be boarded out easily.
I think if you're playing a desolate lighthouse than it is acceptable to run ancestral because then you can pitch it to the lighthouse if needed. Only problem I see may be the amount of snapcasters IF you're running ancestral because a hand of 1-2 ancestral and 2-3 snaps feels dead. I don't see a problem with ancestral.
I went off AV because the card is very high variance. The payoff is massive but the punishment is also very harsh. From what I have seen, most succesful lists do not run it
I went off AV because the card is very high variance. The payoff is massive but the punishment is also very harsh. From what I have seen, most succesful lists do not run it
Not to mention the best decks it was good vs (Jund and Abzan - non death-shadow variants) have fallen off the popularity wagon.
I dont necesarily agree with that. The card is very good against Chord/Company Decks, it is amazing in control mirrors, which narent too uncommon anymore, and its is decent in the combo matchups.
I am not exactly sure why it is supposed to be bad in Deaths shadow matchups, tho.
I dont necesarily agree with that. The card is very good against Chord/Company Decks, it is amazing in control mirrors, which narent too uncommon anymore, and its is decent in the combo matchups.
I am not exactly sure why it is supposed to be bad in Deaths shadow matchups, tho.
Speaking for myself, it's slow against Death's Shadow. Even if we get the magical turn 1 Ancestral Vision, we could be in the crap seats by the time it comes off suspend. In the mean time, it's just a straight up mulligan against a deck with recursion and the ability to strip you of resources. Seems pretty bad.
I dont necesarily agree with that. The card is very good against Chord/Company Decks, it is amazing in control mirrors, which narent too uncommon anymore, and its is decent in the combo matchups.
I am not exactly sure why it is supposed to be bad in Deaths shadow matchups, tho.
Speaking for myself, it's slow against Death's Shadow. Even if we get the magical turn 1 Ancestral Vision, we could be in the crap seats by the time it comes off suspend. In the mean time, it's just a straight up mulligan against a deck with recursion and the ability to strip you of resources. Seems pretty bad.
Pretty much this. It's "fine" vs death shadow but slow. It really only shined vs the super grindy matchups (control, jund, and abzan).
I dont necesarily agree with that. The card is very good against Chord/Company Decks, it is amazing in control mirrors, which narent too uncommon anymore, and its is decent in the combo matchups.
I am not exactly sure why it is supposed to be bad in Deaths shadow matchups, tho.
Speaking for myself, it's slow against Death's Shadow. Even if we get the magical turn 1 Ancestral Vision, we could be in the crap seats by the time it comes off suspend. In the mean time, it's just a straight up mulligan against a deck with recursion and the ability to strip you of resources. Seems pretty bad.
Pay no attention to this. There is nothing magical about having T1 visions...unless you guys are running only 1-2 copies. Then of course you rarely draw it. And it's still great against Death's Shadow. Perhaps there are a lot of inexperienced pilots in here but I'm not usually dead before it resolves as some are claiming they always die so fast. If you are playing a deck like Jeskai where everything is removal or counters how are you dying so quickly?
I dont necesarily agree with that. The card is very good against Chord/Company Decks, it is amazing in control mirrors, which narent too uncommon anymore, and its is decent in the combo matchups.
I am not exactly sure why it is supposed to be bad in Deaths shadow matchups, tho.
Speaking for myself, it's slow against Death's Shadow. Even if we get the magical turn 1 Ancestral Vision, we could be in the crap seats by the time it comes off suspend. In the mean time, it's just a straight up mulligan against a deck with recursion and the ability to strip you of resources. Seems pretty bad.
Pay no attention to this. There is nothing magical about having T1 visions...unless you guys are running only 1-2 copies. Then of course you rarely draw it. And it's still great against Death's Shadow. Perhaps there are a lot of inexperienced pilots in here but I'm not usually dead before it resolves as some are claiming they always die so fast. If you are playing a deck like Jeskai where everything is removal or counters how are you dying so quickly?
What land hate do people play here? I've been usinh spreading seas for a while but I feel they are not impactful enough. UW can rock them because they can actually threaten inevitability but I found them lacking in jeskai; they're only good in combination with other hate pieces (queller, CR), which seems not worth the deck space to me.
What land hate do people play here? I've been usinh spreading seas for a while but I feel they are not impactful enough. UW can rock them because they can actually threaten inevitability but I found them lacking in jeskai; they're only good in combination with other hate pieces (queller, CR), which seems not worth the deck space to me.
You could go to 24 lands with 2 Tec edge. I'm not running any spell-based land-hate at the moment. I'm using Ceremonious Rejection and Spell Quellers out of the board for those type of match-ups.
I've been thinking about going 24 lands with 2 tecs, yeah. Quellers still have been amazing, but I do think I want mainboard supreme verdict which means moving queller to the side. Verdict seems so good right now that I might just want the full playset over the 75, or 3 verdicts and a staticaster
I mean, I think seas is the best land hate in the format right now. The other options are Molten Rain (ew) or multiple GQ in the side (fine but it messes with our 3-color mana base) I run a GQ in the main and one in the side, and it works fine.
Seas is the best landhate yes but it is still subpar IMO. Tron gets slowed down a turn, Eldrazi still casts TKSes through it, valakut only kind of cares if you hit valakut itself. I mostly liked seas against random manlands, but they don't serve their purpose against the decks I actually want them for and the full playset I'd want vs tron decks I never want against anything else. The one deck I really loved seas against were the RG ponza lists with utopia sprawl where it is an utter blowout, but those decks are a tiny fraction of the metagame. Seas only shines when backed up with a clock and extra hate, but by that point you're spending 6-7 slots on a handful of matchups which IMO isn't worth it.
I usually run 2 ghost quarter main and 2 shadow of doubt in the 75. This does mean my Flash list runs 24 lands rather than 23 as I see many others run, and when I play tap-out or draw-go control i go up to 25 or 26. They work well together and also independently hate different problem MU's (Tron / Valakut).
I like spreading seas but I agree that seas are best when used in conjunction with other land/mana denial and by themselves sometimes seem underwhelming - UW control runs 4 GQ / Tectonic Edge to compliment their seas and that is something that a Jeskai mana base will not allow.
Crumble to Dust is a bit slow for my liking but I would run it if I was looking for 1 more piece since it is such a haymaker vs. Tron and will win you games against Titanshift if somehow you miraculously manage to target a Valakut with it.
I have seen lists run Blood Moon out of the sideboard, which I have also always had a guilty soft spot for but never tried.
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Modern Decks
------------ URW Jeskai Control GUWRB Amulet Titan GR Ponza
What land hate do people play here? I've been usinh spreading seas for a while but I feel they are not impactful enough. UW can rock them because they can actually threaten inevitability but I found them lacking in jeskai; they're only good in combination with other hate pieces (queller, CR), which seems not worth the deck space to me.
I honestly have forgone land-hate. I used to play crumble to dust but that's too slow vs eldrazi and situational vs scapeshift.
The only deck crumble excels vs is regular tron (which has waned in popularity).
I play a much more aggressive version of Jeskai (x2 cliques, x2 restoraiton angels) so my main game plan vs big mana decks is to tempo them out.
Yes, I posted a list for it recently in this format that is crushing right now. Run it, learn it, and win.
They can just remand their own grapeshot and cast it for even more copies.
This is my current List:
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
2 Steam Vents
2 Hallowd Fountain
1 Sacred Foundry
3 Celestial Colonnade
1 Sulfur Falls
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Mountain
1 Desolate Lighthouse
1 Tectonic Edge
3 Ancestral Vision
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
1 Electrolyze
4 Path To Exile
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Mana Leak
2 Logic Knot
2 Spell Snare
2 Cryptic Command
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Geist Of Saint Traft
1 Gideon, Ally Of Zendikar
For me the card seems preatty good in most matchups, exept the very aggressive ones, in which it can be boarded out easily.
I used to run 2 of ancestral vision in my deck but ended up taking them out because they are too slow in the current format. It's an amazing turn one play when playing against fair decks but it becomes a huge burden to counterspells where you now have a dead card in your hand. It also stinks drawing it since the game will most likely be over by the time it resolves if not played on turn one.
I think if you're playing a desolate lighthouse than it is acceptable to run ancestral because then you can pitch it to the lighthouse if needed. Only problem I see may be the amount of snapcasters IF you're running ancestral because a hand of 1-2 ancestral and 2-3 snaps feels dead. I don't see a problem with ancestral.
Not to mention the best decks it was good vs (Jund and Abzan - non death-shadow variants) have fallen off the popularity wagon.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
I am not exactly sure why it is supposed to be bad in Deaths shadow matchups, tho.
Speaking for myself, it's slow against Death's Shadow. Even if we get the magical turn 1 Ancestral Vision, we could be in the crap seats by the time it comes off suspend. In the mean time, it's just a straight up mulligan against a deck with recursion and the ability to strip you of resources. Seems pretty bad.
Pretty much this. It's "fine" vs death shadow but slow. It really only shined vs the super grindy matchups (control, jund, and abzan).
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Pay no attention to this. There is nothing magical about having T1 visions...unless you guys are running only 1-2 copies. Then of course you rarely draw it. And it's still great against Death's Shadow. Perhaps there are a lot of inexperienced pilots in here but I'm not usually dead before it resolves as some are claiming they always die so fast. If you are playing a deck like Jeskai where everything is removal or counters how are you dying so quickly?
Please, enlighten me.
You could go to 24 lands with 2 Tec edge. I'm not running any spell-based land-hate at the moment. I'm using Ceremonious Rejection and Spell Quellers out of the board for those type of match-ups.
UWR Control
BR Hollow One
UWR Control
BR Hollow One
I like spreading seas but I agree that seas are best when used in conjunction with other land/mana denial and by themselves sometimes seem underwhelming - UW control runs 4 GQ / Tectonic Edge to compliment their seas and that is something that a Jeskai mana base will not allow.
Crumble to Dust is a bit slow for my liking but I would run it if I was looking for 1 more piece since it is such a haymaker vs. Tron and will win you games against Titanshift if somehow you miraculously manage to target a Valakut with it.
I have seen lists run Blood Moon out of the sideboard, which I have also always had a guilty soft spot for but never tried.
------------
URW Jeskai Control
GUWRB Amulet Titan
GR Ponza
I honestly have forgone land-hate. I used to play crumble to dust but that's too slow vs eldrazi and situational vs scapeshift.
The only deck crumble excels vs is regular tron (which has waned in popularity).
I play a much more aggressive version of Jeskai (x2 cliques, x2 restoraiton angels) so my main game plan vs big mana decks is to tempo them out.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
Stream: twitch.tv/axman
Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA