If you were playing Flash, you need Spell Queller. That's pretty much an automatic 3-of, if not a playset.
I've spent a quite a few months testing this at FNM and over the kitchen table, and it is playing fairly well. One more note: I dont need any more lands. I always flood with 25, and sometimes even with 24.
Yeah this discussion really matches my concerns with the card; the maximum value is amazing but having to play around it possibly getting killed is such an opportunity to get completely blown out
I love queller in the bant spirit lists, where it comes down a turn earlier, is backed up by a ton of other creatures and can be given hexproof, but in the flash lists you tend to run around 13 creatures so the odds of your opponent getting to kill queller at an opportune time are high
I might come back to Lingering Souls, the card is so good, but I'm not sure how it fits in a Draw-go shell (or any traditional UWR control deck). I was tempted to try Kiki-Resto combo, here's my take also :
Imma throw out my non-Nahiri deck as well. This is a deck pretty dear to my heart, but it's started to play like trash. I've been noticing a lot of different builds lately and would like to ask you guys opinion on my brew.
Imma throw out my non-Nahiri deck as well. This is a deck pretty dear to my heart, but it's started to play like trash. I've been noticing a lot of different builds lately and would like to ask you guys opinion on my brew.
...
It just feels overall bad. Thoughts?
I love the UWR combination, but I think Modern has really moved past it in the last few sets.
In my estimation, it started with a continual strengthening of non-UW cards beginning with Dragons of Tarkir. Modal spells are very strong for interactive decks, whether midrange or control. Of these, RB got Kolaghan's Command, greatly strengthening Grixis and Jund; RG got Atarka's Command, slotting perfectly into Burn (and Zoo); and UW got ... Ojutai's Command, a card which might be playable at 1UW, but even then would be inferior to Kolaghan's Command.
Next comes Eldritch Moon, where W gets Blessed Alliance (a reasonable card, but with only 2/3 playable modes, and none of which really do anything amazing), while B gets Collective Brutality (a much better set of options, offering three relevant modes, and most critically, lifegain for a color that doesn't have much access to it).
Finally, Aether Revolt brought Fatal Push. Along with Terminate, RB now has (nearly) unconditional kill spells at 1 and 2with no drawback -- unlike Path to Exile, which has a fairly severe drawback.
Couple all of this with (1) a decrease in utility creatures (Noble Hierarch, Birds of Paradise, Dark Confidant), and (2) an increasing presence of Bolt-proof creatures (various Eldrazi, delve creatures, Death's Shadow, etc.), and UWR just doesn't seem as strong anymore. It's never going to be horrible, but I think right now UW (trading Bolt / Helix for Condemn) and UBR (with stronger threats and discard) are simply stronger. Which is really frustrating, because playing an instant-speed Jeskai deck is really one of the most enjoyable ways to play Magic, in my opinion.
I'm currently off Jeskai for a bit. My last build was a flash deck with 4 Snapcaster, 4 Spell Queller, 2 Clique, 2 Restoration Angel, 4 Bolt, 4 Path, 3 Helix, 2 Electrolyze, 2 Negate, 2 Spell Snare, 4 Serum Visions, and 24 lands (probably forgetting a card or two). The deck felt very good against midrange and aggro, and so-so against more controlling decks (in a few outings, I lost hard to Emeria Control, lost a close match to Jeskai Draw-Go, and lost to 4c Death's Shadow). But since the rise of Death's Shadow and Eldrazi Tron, I am looking to either point my Bolts at my opponent more often (Burn) or play something a bit more proactive/disruptive (Grixis Shadow) -- always waiting for the next new printing or metagame change to revitalize this archetype.
I totally agree. Jeskai is trash right now. I play Esper Draw Go competitively, and it's working well for me. However, I love playing Jeskai, and I've been playing the deck for a while. This is mostly my FNM deck I play for fun, and was just wondering if anyone had a new revelation about how to play the deck that I haven't seen. Honestly, I agree with all that you said. Grixis is amazing, but I can't afford it. UW is good, but I fell in love with 3 color control and I'm never going back.
I've dropped Nahiri for now; tapping our for her is just too troublesome. The list I am currently working on is essentially entirely UW, only splashing red for Lightning Bolt. Grixis is really poor right now, as neither bolt nor fatal push can deal with eldrazi well, and abzan coco is on the rise making exile effects excellent.
Has anyone considered Cast Out for UWR Draw-Go control? It has flash and can hit a myriad of problems that aren't lands. It seems really good, but I'm not really sure how to reconfigure my deck with them.
I've dropped Nahiri for now; tapping our for her is just too troublesome. The list I am currently working on is essentially entirely UW, only splashing red for Lightning Bolt. Grixis is really poor right now, as neither bolt nor fatal push can deal with eldrazi well, and abzan coco is on the rise making exile effects excellent.
BTW @BlueCheeseMage, I agree with most of your assessment except the part where Grixis Control is in a better place. They're pretty much where Jeskai is right now for largely the same reasons. They're also slightly more exposed because of their win-cons and inability to protect them late into a game unlike UW control. Even Esper control feels stronger right now.
I've dropped Nahiri for now; tapping our for her is just too troublesome. The list I am currently working on is essentially entirely UW, only splashing red for Lightning Bolt. Grixis is really poor right now, as neither bolt nor fatal push can deal with eldrazi well, and abzan coco is on the rise making exile effects excellent.
Can I see that list please?
I'm not satisfied with what I have right now and I change something basically every day I test, but generally:
UWx is definitely the way to go because of path, condemn and sideboarding
I wasn't satisfied with just UW, wanting more spot removal. So far I prefer red because although push is better against some decks, boltsnapbolt is still incredibly strong to close out a game
I run barely any conditional countermagic
Trials Gideon is the absolute nuts and my main wincon
you don't need to do silly pact of negation/demonic pact stuff to make Gideon good, he just is. I might still play some number of pact of negation, however.
I want an instant speed cantrip, still settling on which one
Has anyone considered Cast Out for UWR Draw-Go control? It has flash and can hit a myriad of problems that aren't lands. It seems really good, but I'm not really sure how to reconfigure my deck with them.
I had completely passed over Cast Out when reading the spoilers, but it does look interesting. Hard to test though since at most you want two
BTW @BlueCheeseMage, I agree with most of your assessment except the part where Grixis Control is in a better place. They're pretty much where Jeskai is right now for largely the same reasons. They're also slightly more exposed because of their win-cons and inability to protect them late into a game unlike UW control. Even Esper control feels stronger right now.
I don't think I said Grixis Control (as a deck) is in a better place than Jeskai. I don't think it is; I think they're in a similar place but for different reasons. Grixis Delver and Shadow are probably (or definitely?) better positioned than Jeskai Control, IMO, but those are definitely more 'tempo' decks than pure control. I am just saying that UW/UWR as a color combination hasn't been given tools on the same power level as other colors recently, and that as Bolt/Helix's usefulness in actually killing creatures falls, Jeskai as a control shell doesn't seem as good. Grixis Control has other issues holding it back a bit (no life gain; no enchantment interaction; etc.) despite its strengths.
I'm going to a tourney this weekend and I want to run Jeskai Nahiri for the first time, I know it might not be the best meta choice right now but a friend suggested I try it because he thought it'dd be a deck that completely sooths my playstyle. So I proxied the missing parts and have to say he was right, I love playing it! Here's the list:
(Phone so no tags sorry)
BTW @BlueCheeseMage, I agree with most of your assessment except the part where Grixis Control is in a better place. They're pretty much where Jeskai is right now for largely the same reasons. They're also slightly more exposed because of their win-cons and inability to protect them late into a game unlike UW control. Even Esper control feels stronger right now.
I don't think I said Grixis Control (as a deck) is in a better place than Jeskai. I don't think it is; I think they're in a similar place but for different reasons. Grixis Delver and Shadow are probably (or definitely?) better positioned than Jeskai Control, IMO, but those are definitely more 'tempo' decks than pure control. I am just saying that UW/UWR as a color combination hasn't been given tools on the same power level as other colors recently, and that as Bolt/Helix's usefulness in actually killing creatures falls, Jeskai as a control shell doesn't seem as good. Grixis Control has other issues holding it back a bit (no life gain; no enchantment interaction; etc.) despite its strengths.
I dunno I think bolt/helix are still better than they look atm... I won my last 3 game 1's against R/G Tron, Ad Nauseam and Time Warp (really hard deck) just because of lightning bolt and post board it gets much better for me. The nice thing about bolt/helix is that its a win con/removal spell in just 1 card which saves a TON of room for gas in dekbuilding like not having to spend too many slots towards win conditions which means more answers/draw.
Just wish wizards will give me Containment Priest for my last sb slot... I meean seriously, this format NEEDS something like containment priest with all the coco/chhord/breach/aethhervial/dredge/goryos/living end #yolobrokenstuff that just goes willy nilly since it doesn't have anything to really police them which means they would require to pacck more "interaction" which slows them down and makes it a bit fairer for interactive decks.
Honestly bolt is still the best card in Modern, that there are top tier decks designed to beat it does not make it unplayable. It is still a premium removal spell that can be used to close out a game very efficiently together with snapcaster. Fatal Push might be better removal now, but it is also completely dead against several matchups where bolt can still help with your clock
Honestly bolt is still the best card in Modern, that there are top tier decks designed to beat it does not make it unplayable. It is still a premium removal spell that can be used to close out a game very efficiently together with snapcaster. Fatal Push might be better removal now, but it is also completely dead against several matchups where bolt can still help with your clock
I didn't say it (either Bolt or Jeskai) was unplayable...
... as Bolt/Helix's usefulness in actually killing creatures falls, Jeskai as a control shell doesn't seem as good.
Bolt is obviously a good card, obviously kills some creatures, and obviously helps win games. But its usefulness in controlling the board has fallen quite a bit from when Dark Confidants and Birds of Paradise and Noble Hierarchs and Glistener Elves ruled Modern -- and hence Jeskai as a control shell isn't as strongly positioned as it has been. I don't know how to be much clearer than that. (And if you disagree, that's fine, but there's no need to misrepresent what I'm saying. That doesn't further the discussion...)
FWIW, I think Jeskai is probably reasonably well-positioned as a counter-burn deck that can take the control role in certain matchups (Burn, Affinity, Elves, Merfolk, etc.) and play more of a tempo/burn role in other matchups (Tron, Shadow, etc.). I.e., build the deck to leverage Bolt's ability to do 3 damage to the opponent by complementing it with additional burn (Helix) and other sources of incremental damage besides Snapcaster (obvious) and Colonnade (often too slow), such as Vendilion Clique, Spell Queller, Secure the Wastes (!?), etc.
@BlueCheeseMage, That makes sense. It's just that you said Grixis colors had stronger threats and I really disagree with that. The discard aspect has varying levels of usefulness.
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I've spent a quite a few months testing this at FNM and over the kitchen table, and it is playing fairly well. One more note: I dont need any more lands. I always flood with 25, and sometimes even with 24.
Sideboard is here:
Thanks a lot!
W[mana]U[/mana]BEsper Control
I love queller in the bant spirit lists, where it comes down a turn earlier, is backed up by a ton of other creatures and can be given hexproof, but in the flash lists you tend to run around 13 creatures so the odds of your opponent getting to kill queller at an opportune time are high
4 Snapcaster Mage
Planeswalkers (1)
1 Ajani Vengeant
Spells (29)
4 Cryptic Command
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
3 Lightning Helix
3 Mana Leak
2 Electrolyze
2 Remand
2 Logic Knot
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Wrath of God
1 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Celestial Colonnade
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Steam Vents
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Desolate Lighthouse
3 Tectonic Edge
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Rest for the Weary
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Celestial Purge
1 Counterflux
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Dispel
1 Negate
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Rest in Peace
1 Stony Silence
2 Wear // Tear
I might come back to Lingering Souls, the card is so good, but I'm not sure how it fits in a Draw-go shell (or any traditional UWR control deck). I was tempted to try Kiki-Resto combo, here's my take also :
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Restoration Angel
2 Kiki-jiki, Mirror Breaker
Planeswalkers (1)
1 Ajani Vengeant
Spells (24)
4 Cryptic Command
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
3 Mana Leak
2 Lightning Helix
2 Electrolyze
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Wrath of God
1 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Celestial Colonnade
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Steam Vents
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Desolate Lighthouse
3 Tectonic Edge
3 Island
1 Mountain
1 Plains
2 Timely Reinforcements
1 Rest for the Weary
1 Lightning Helix
1 Celestial Purge
1 Counterflux
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Dispel
1 Negate
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Rest in Peace
1 Stony Silence
2 Wear // Tear
Aggro: Naya Burn RWG
Combo: Scapeshift RG
Control: Jeskai Control UWR
Legacy
Control: Miracles UW
Aggro: Burn R
1x Torrential Gearhulk
1x Anger of the Gods
4x Serum Visions
2x Supreme Verdict
4x Cryptic Command
2x Electrolyze
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Logic Knot
2x Mana Leak
1x Negate
4x Path to Exile
2x Sphinx's Revelation
3x Think Twice
1x Desolate Lighthouse
4x Flooded Strand
1x Ghost Quarter
2x Hallowed Fountain
3x Island
1x Plains
1x Sacred Foundry
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Steam Vents
1x Sulfur Falls
1x Blessed Alliance
2x Crumble to Dust
1x Dispel
2x Negate
2x Relic of Progenitus
2x Stony Silence
2x Supreme Verdict
2x Vendilion Clique
1x Wear / Tear
It just feels overall bad. Thoughts?
UWR Control
BR Hollow One
I love the UWR combination, but I think Modern has really moved past it in the last few sets.
In my estimation, it started with a continual strengthening of non-UW cards beginning with Dragons of Tarkir. Modal spells are very strong for interactive decks, whether midrange or control. Of these, RB got Kolaghan's Command, greatly strengthening Grixis and Jund; RG got Atarka's Command, slotting perfectly into Burn (and Zoo); and UW got ... Ojutai's Command, a card which might be playable at 1UW, but even then would be inferior to Kolaghan's Command.
Next comes Eldritch Moon, where W gets Blessed Alliance (a reasonable card, but with only 2/3 playable modes, and none of which really do anything amazing), while B gets Collective Brutality (a much better set of options, offering three relevant modes, and most critically, lifegain for a color that doesn't have much access to it).
Finally, Aether Revolt brought Fatal Push. Along with Terminate, RB now has (nearly) unconditional kill spells at 1 and 2 with no drawback -- unlike Path to Exile, which has a fairly severe drawback.
Couple all of this with (1) a decrease in utility creatures (Noble Hierarch, Birds of Paradise, Dark Confidant), and (2) an increasing presence of Bolt-proof creatures (various Eldrazi, delve creatures, Death's Shadow, etc.), and UWR just doesn't seem as strong anymore. It's never going to be horrible, but I think right now UW (trading Bolt / Helix for Condemn) and UBR (with stronger threats and discard) are simply stronger. Which is really frustrating, because playing an instant-speed Jeskai deck is really one of the most enjoyable ways to play Magic, in my opinion.
I'm currently off Jeskai for a bit. My last build was a flash deck with 4 Snapcaster, 4 Spell Queller, 2 Clique, 2 Restoration Angel, 4 Bolt, 4 Path, 3 Helix, 2 Electrolyze, 2 Negate, 2 Spell Snare, 4 Serum Visions, and 24 lands (probably forgetting a card or two). The deck felt very good against midrange and aggro, and so-so against more controlling decks (in a few outings, I lost hard to Emeria Control, lost a close match to Jeskai Draw-Go, and lost to 4c Death's Shadow). But since the rise of Death's Shadow and Eldrazi Tron, I am looking to either point my Bolts at my opponent more often (Burn) or play something a bit more proactive/disruptive (Grixis Shadow) -- always waiting for the next new printing or metagame change to revitalize this archetype.
W[mana]U[/mana]BEsper Control
Can I see that list please?
W[mana]U[/mana]BEsper Control
I'm not satisfied with what I have right now and I change something basically every day I test, but generally:
I had completely passed over Cast Out when reading the spoilers, but it does look interesting. Hard to test though since at most you want two
I don't think I said Grixis Control (as a deck) is in a better place than Jeskai. I don't think it is; I think they're in a similar place but for different reasons. Grixis Delver and Shadow are probably (or definitely?) better positioned than Jeskai Control, IMO, but those are definitely more 'tempo' decks than pure control. I am just saying that UW/UWR as a color combination hasn't been given tools on the same power level as other colors recently, and that as Bolt/Helix's usefulness in actually killing creatures falls, Jeskai as a control shell doesn't seem as good. Grixis Control has other issues holding it back a bit (no life gain; no enchantment interaction; etc.) despite its strengths.
(Phone so no tags sorry)
4 snapcaster mage
1 Emrakul
4 Nahiri
4 remand
3 mana leak
4 ancestral vision
4 serum visions
4 lightning bolt
4 lightning Helix
2 path to exile
1 timely reinforcements
1 electrolyze
1supreme verdict
SB:
2 path to exile
2 Dispel
2 Negate
2 blood moon
1 anger ot gods
2 RIP
2 Stony Silence
2 leyline of sancities
Some recomandactions are welcome!
Thanks
UWG Spirits
Standard
UW Control
RBU Midrange
Commander
UBG Tasigur
Pauper
GW Slivers
Also where is your landbase?
I dunno I think bolt/helix are still better than they look atm... I won my last 3 game 1's against R/G Tron, Ad Nauseam and Time Warp (really hard deck) just because of lightning bolt and post board it gets much better for me. The nice thing about bolt/helix is that its a win con/removal spell in just 1 card which saves a TON of room for gas in dekbuilding like not having to spend too many slots towards win conditions which means more answers/draw.
I'm currently running this list which has played out better in testing than the tap-out stuff - http://www.mtgvault.com/davidgaz/decks/mystical-teachings/
Just wish wizards will give me Containment Priest for my last sb slot... I meean seriously, this format NEEDS something like containment priest with all the coco/chhord/breach/aethhervial/dredge/goryos/living end #yolobrokenstuff that just goes willy nilly since it doesn't have anything to really police them which means they would require to pacck more "interaction" which slows them down and makes it a bit fairer for interactive decks.
WMMT5dx: Car - RK Coupe Track - Hakone Outbound
I didn't say it (either Bolt or Jeskai) was unplayable...
Bolt is obviously a good card, obviously kills some creatures, and obviously helps win games. But its usefulness in controlling the board has fallen quite a bit from when Dark Confidants and Birds of Paradise and Noble Hierarchs and Glistener Elves ruled Modern -- and hence Jeskai as a control shell isn't as strongly positioned as it has been. I don't know how to be much clearer than that. (And if you disagree, that's fine, but there's no need to misrepresent what I'm saying. That doesn't further the discussion...)
FWIW, I think Jeskai is probably reasonably well-positioned as a counter-burn deck that can take the control role in certain matchups (Burn, Affinity, Elves, Merfolk, etc.) and play more of a tempo/burn role in other matchups (Tron, Shadow, etc.). I.e., build the deck to leverage Bolt's ability to do 3 damage to the opponent by complementing it with additional burn (Helix) and other sources of incremental damage besides Snapcaster (obvious) and Colonnade (often too slow), such as Vendilion Clique, Spell Queller, Secure the Wastes (!?), etc.