After a bit of playing, I'm on board for at least 2 Smuggler's copter (currently run 3) and 1-2 serra avenger. I've tried it without flying, and over and over again flying has been the main thing I missed!
Copter basically makes the blade splicer 1/1 a 3/3 flyer looter.
I had avenger out of the main for awhile but missed its ability to put on a clock and defend.
Hi, Guys!
I play mono W version, similar to Brian Coval's deck and have a problems with ElTron... How to beat it?
My Sideboard plan:
Out -4 Vial, -2 Thalia.
In +2 Dusk, +3 Stony, +1 Leonin Relic Warder.
Hi, Guys!
I play mono W version, similar to Brian Coval's deck and have a problems with ElTron... How to beat it?
My Sideboard plan:
Out -4 Vial, -2 Thalia.
In +2 Dusk, +3 Stony, +1 Leonin Relic Warder.
Disruption with pressure. One with out the other and you will be far more likely to loose. The thing is they (and normal tron) are so redundant you can't expect to put all your resources into disruption because without a clock they will just inevitably get huge eventually. Dusk // Dawn is the best card but it also means you can't really be on the land destruction plan. The land destruction plan is also much harder to do without vials. If you want to board in stony silence and out aether vial I would suggest also having something like banisher priest, it's disruption and a clock. Then just hope to hit a Dusk // Dawn if things don't go your way.
I prefer to keep in my vials and Thalias(it can really help against chalice) and get low. I board out any resto's and eldrazi displacers bring in Dusk // Dawn just in case and any beaters or banisher priest I have in the board. Then I use my lands and vials aggressively going for the race. If they hit Ugin or Karn we are just dead most of the time.
Once I was able to grind through 3 Ugins and reality smashers due to the golem tokens and path but then I was just out of resources and he dropped the 4th smasher. They have the inevitability so we have to be fast.
I don't know about you guys but I can't buy a win against Counters Company!
Mono-white D&T is not fast enough to beat Counters Company or compromise them. And its not controlling or disruptive enough to keep the board clear due to CoCo and Chord being able to tutor the exact missing pieces to combo off.
How are you dealing with CC both pre and sideboard?
Is this just one of those decks we can't beat and hope to not run into? Or is there a tech that I'm missing?
Vials out against E-Tron is a mistake. You need to get as far ahead as you can in order to win. The nonbo with Stony Silence (which you should definitely bring in) is awkward, but if you draw one or the other (or draw one once the other has put in sufficient work), you'll be fine.
ok so the more aggro version I ran last week didn't do so well 2-2 beating storm and naya evolution, and losing to esper good stuff and bant knightfall. This week I am going back to what i consider a basic deck, rather than the new default gp lists, to see how it goes. I am using the 4-3-2 colorless land distribution that I believe charons suggests (r it may be glitter sorry guys) and running 3x shefet dunes as well to ensure enough colorless mana for displacer while also keeping basics high enough to not get completely blown out by blood moon.
Edit: went 2*-1-1
round1 infect (0-2)- Game one I missed 4th land drop with thalia so I couldn't selfless spirit and hold path up to block inkmoth nexus I decided to go with path route and vines beat me. Game 2 I play t2 arbiter opponent plays t1 hierarch t2 blighted agent I run out gideon and had brain fart forgetting hierarch could tap for mana and plussed on blighted he vines untapped and might of old krosa and become immense. looking back i should have just emblemed.
Round 2 Jeskai control (1-1-1) All three games were super grindy game 3 both of us were at 4 and no clear advantage when turn 5 ended. No slow play just 3 very long games one of the better matches I have played in a long time.
Round 3 Bye
Round 4 UW Control (2-0)- Game one I Kept pressure up with finks and a few creatures while holding splicer wisp in hand to rebuild after wrath and slowly won. G2 gideon finks beats with double resto angel up.
Just gonna go on the record now and say that I think Settle the Wreckage will be a very strong option for us. I'm still new to the deck, so don't jam 4 into your mainboard the day after Ixalan drops or anything crazy like that on my account; but this card seems to shore up some weaknesses quite well, while continuing to accrue advantage in a traditionally D&T way (pairs well with Paths before and after, Arbiter, or both).
It provides outs to the same troublesome creatures that Dusk//Dawn does, but at instant speed, and without the awkwardness of wiping our own Golems/Restos/Wisps. I'm a believer.
It’s been awhile since I’ve been on the mtgsalvation forum and in that time there are a bunch of new people here. Allow me to introduce myself for those that don’t know me. I’m dsmonsta. I’ve been playing Magic on and off since the dark days of 4th edition when cards were either broken beyond belief or gimped by modern standards but didn’t play beyond kitchen table until the summer of 2015 or grixis summer as it’s lovingly referred to. This was a time when eldrazi were a punchline and splinter twin made up over ten percent of the meta. DNT has been my go to deck and modern my go to format since then. I’m a player and deckbuilder of unimpressive skill but I can craft a manabase like no one’s business. For what it’s worth I primarily play white/green or straight white. These are my areas of expertise although I’m familiar with the rest of the deck.
I wrote the original DNT manabase primer in April of 2016 and I think it still is useful but the format is much changed since then and my own views have matured as well. The original post can be found here for reference. It is based in large part on Frank Karsten’s superb article regarding manabase construction which is available here and the birds of paradise mana failure table which can be found here . READ THESE! It should be noted that Karsten’s math is more complex than the raw tables and includes a hand selection bias in the math and the tables appear to be more restrictive. This is for good reason. The raw tables are just that, raw.
In general, I like to define the threshold of success of any uncertain task that I set out on before I set out on it in order to temper my own expectations and root them in reality. This prevents me from throwing the towel prematurely if things go rougher than expected or declaring victory when it’s unearned.
1. Reliably casting our spells on the curve.
This is the most important thing that we need mana for and lands are our mana producers. Yes, we have aether vial and green splashes would be remiss to not play a set of noble hierarch but most of our spells will be cast with mana produced by lands. This does not necessarily mean that we need to hit every land drop but we depend on advancing to the middle and late portion of the games while our opponents resources are tied up and they are unable to progress a board state beyond the early game. This is more important now than ever before with a plethora of unfair and quasi-fair decks making up tier one.
2. Provide land destruction
DNT is one of the only decks in format that plays four or more lands that have a primary use that is not producing mana or getting lands that produce mana. Let us start with the obvious. Every iteration of this deck plays four ghost quarters. This is a hard and fast rule. The number of Thalias and arbiters played is flexible but ghost quarter is a four of automatically. Sadly WOTC says we have to play by the same rules as everyone else and four is the limit. Many DNT variants will run tectonic edges supplementally. This is a cornerstone of the deck.
3. Provide additional utility
Nobody likes topdecking a land when the board state is stalled and a land that just taps for mana that you already have nothing to do with is even worse. This is why we run utility lands and it’s fairly unique in format to run more than one or two of these utility lands. These range from man lands that put power on the board, dodge sweepers and can’t be countered to card draw or even stranger. We must eke every benefit possible out of our lands due to the fact we run very few non-creature spells.
This question is almost always asked regarding noble hierarch and for good reason. A first turn hierarch that survives to make mana can enable some tremendously mean plays that shift the percentage for wins in our favor. My favorite is turn two arbiter and ghost quarter but aven mindcensor and Thalia, heretic cathar are very strong as well.
To answer the question though we must know what turn we want to cast these spells on. Consulting Karsten’s tables we see that the answer for the first turn noble hierarch is 14 untapped green sources which is simple enough. Do we really need to cast hierarch on turn one though? It enables strong plays and all but is much less likely to survive until turn two than an aether vial. Every time both are in my opener I have trouble deciding which to play.
On the other hand let us say that we want to be able to cast a card that costs 1W on turn two. The same table says 13 lands are necessary for that to happen with reliability. Lately, I’ve been running a greedier manabases than previously to squeeze every bit of utility out of my cards and have the best top decks possible.
Twenty three. Probably. This has been the popular answer for much of the history of this deck in the modern format and for good reason. We sacrifice our own lands all the time and still need to draw them as vial won’t be seen in nearly half of our games.
The main exception to playing 23 lands is that green splashes have access to noble hierarch which is awesome. This is very well supported in results and 22 is the default answer for green splashses but is not by any means authoritative. I’ve personally run 23 lands in green splashes to use a set of stirring wildwood but that was before fatal push was around and I won’t be doing that at the moment. Some claim that ramp sources let us run a lower land count as they produce more mana. My response is that we still need to draw them and 22 is lower than the 26 draws that can power a green splash while only actually playing 22 lands.
Fetchlands are a staple of every format where they’re legal and for good reason. They provide outstanding reliability in manabase construction as well as deck thinning for a negligible cost in life. Any three color and most two color decks will play at least a set with up to 10 being average. We prey on this with leonin arbiter and aven mindcensor to at least steal tempo and force removal and at most lock opponents out of the game.
We can run fetchlands too and play around our own arbiter. The spider knows what part of the web is sticky. The advanatage of this aside from mana fixing is that we can turn on revolt for renegade rallier and fatal push, take advantage of deck thinning (it’s overrated by most but over the course of a few days it will matter and something is better than nothing) and fetch basics to nullify a blood moon type effect. The disadvantages are that eventually you will get caught by your own arbiter and hatebears/dnt makes up ~5% of the metagame as of this writing so it is not something to be embarked upon lightly. Have a good reason to play fetches if you choose to.
Four. Almost always and no; you won’t auto-lose to burn. You’ll give up a few percentage points against burn and decks of it’s ilk which make up ~7% of the meta as of this writing but improve your chances with almost everything else and besides, we have a solid match against burn already.
Yes. Horizon canopy is expensive (as of this writing SCG is sold out at $100) and the second line of text may as well read “1, tap, sac: draw another land.” but that’s one card closer to what will win you the game and you need a compelling reason to not run four. Here are some good reasons: “I can’t afford them.” “I’m playing a splash that isn’t green.” “My meta is nothing but burn.”
Please note that this is my opinion and it’s a fairly contentious one even among those that have contributed a great amount to this thread and also the development of the deck. I will point out that every pro player that has top eighted a GP with this deck has played a set of canopys though.
The short answer to this question is that you should be able to cast every card in your deck off of nothing but your basic lands. Blood moon exists and shouldn’t be discounted but the primary reason why we run basics is so that we don’t make our opponent’s ghost quarters and path to exiles better. This is a concern as they are the number one and two most commonly played cards in format as of this writing. We also use our own cards for emergency mana fixing. White/green tends to have a greedier (in terms of basics) manabase and I have been known to play two forests and one plains rather than two plains. This is compromise for casting noble hierarch reliably on the first turn.
I like to have half my lands have some other ability besides making mana as this contributes to a higher percentage of live draws when the board is stalemated or we’re behind. This will typically be 4 ghost quarters, 4 horizon canopys, 2 manlands and 1-2 other lands.
Since fatal push emerged on the scene and the meta included more and more ghost quarters I’ve had less and less luck with manlands (looking in your direction stirring wildwood) which had previously been real winners. This is in part due to the fact that spending 1GW to activate it and having it die to one mana worth of tempo in either case is bad trade when previously it survived lightning bolt and abrupt decay; the two best removal spells in format. For this reason I don’t encourage the wholesale use of more than a couple manlands unless they’re low investment types like mutavault that opponents will be less likely to spend removal on and it’s not a huge tempo loss if they do.
The Innistrad cycle utility lands are by and large great. [card[Gavony township[/card] is widely used and for very good reason as it can put a tremendous amount of power on the board. Less utilized lands are moorland haunt and slayer’s stronghold. I’d like to think that this is due to blue and red being less popular splashes. Last but not least is {card]vault of the archangel[/card] which has a tremendous amount of potential but is infrequently played due to WB eldrazi and taxes having a ridiculously tight manabase already.
The Amonkhet and Hour of Devastation cycle of desert lands are something that I think has great potential. Thread contributors and streamers extroardinare Deathandcatmix and Spiderspace have both used shefet dunes to good result on stream and I use them in Wc eldrazi and taxes but the one that I believe has the most potential is scavenger grounds as it allows non-green decks to pack graveyard hate in the main deck. Furthermore this happens at time when grave hate, especially fast and reasonably costed graveyard hate is very important in the meta. I think hashep oasis has playability. This is primarily due to the fact that it can giant growth a mirran crusader for tremendous offensive potential. Lastly, ifnir deadlands seems useable as it provides removal that is land based.
Here are some sample manabases. Each is on the conservative side.
Your success in playing dnt/hatebears is determined largely by your ability to read and prepare for the meta that you will be playing in. Furthermore, it has an absolutely brutal learning curve. Expect to lose; a lot.
So I sleeved Mono-white eldrazi up again since i had the day off for Labor day and could make the Monday night tournament and I finally got my matter reshapers in paper. Tested matter reshaper over Blade splicer in order to test and found I liked it quite a bit in the eldrazi build. The down side is that it can't be blinked for value which is a pretty big downside but the ability to play it T2 44% of the time when no other plays in hands helps, and versus some of the no so great matches the CA from chump blocking is very nice also better versus cars like kolagan's command. The 2x reality smasher never really came up much so i am not sure if I will keep in or not...for time being and testing purposes I most likely will. The 1x Geier reach sanitarium also never came up (synergy with spirit of the labyrinth) but will probably be cut for 1x waste so eldrazi are not dead to blood moon, which seems higher chance than having a 2 of and a 1 of out at the same time AND opponent not having disruption. Spirit of the labyrinth is staying its a good aggressive two drop that has a relevant tax and has nice synergies with TKS. the rest of the deck is pretty stock. I liked the fact that the deck can run 10 2 drops with chance of temple making it 18 to ensure early action but then also having 13 3 drops for that sweet spot on vial the hands seemed to have nice curves the majority of the times.
Round 1 G/R Ponza (2-1). Game 1 Her got a blood moon out and caught me with 2 TKS and 2 smasher i hand we went to top deck war which he eventually won. Game 2 I kept him off mana necessary to cast blood moon, stone rain till both cards were of no use. G3 early Thalia into TKS stripped relevant cards and I won through a little bit of removal.
Round 2 Goblins (2-1) Game one I stabiliezed at 13 life with opponent having 4 more creatures than me but my creatures being much bigger. He alpha striked I flash in mincensor and block going to 10 and he had double goblin grenade. Game 2 Elspeth did a lot of heavy lifting on defense and offence. Game 3 I strip on of his grenades away leaving him with one goblin in play greanade bolt (opponent was very aggressive with attacking into my favorable blocks to try and grenade grenade bolt for the win.) and me at 10. Shortly after I top deck lone missionary to take me completely out of burn out range and able to attack with wisp and selfless spirit for a few turns to win. This seems like a rough match for us but matter reshaped helped since legion loyalist doesn't let our golems block. but over all we can lose due to being slower.
Round 3 Grisebrand/Groyo's vengeance (1-2)- Game one I gaught T2 Thalia and caught opponent with spirit of the labyrinth off of vial when he tried to flashback his faithless looting taxes added up and opponent couldn't do much. G2 he is on the play he plays T1 faithless I play T1 Plains Vial, he goes off on his second turn. G3 I mull to 5 (no landers) keep plains, thalia, rest in peace, path, path scry smasher to bottom. T1 plains pass T2 miss on land pass he played T1 looting and T2 vengeance again before second activation of griselbran (he is at 5 from fetch) I path he discards had boroborygmos in grave and discards a through the breach. I top deck second land and after some thought play thalia over rest in peace since I saw one vengeance and he discarded (presumably extra) through the breach. He vengeance on the boro hits me down to 13 and discards land from boro to kill Thalia. Next turn I dont get third land and decide RIP should be the play to keep him from flashback on a looting he through the breach (not that Thalia is gone) a worldspine worm for the game.. This is one that I feel we have the advantage but rough G3 with the mulls.
G4 UR Baral Storm (2-0): Game one I get quick Thalia into spirit of the labyrinth and the opponent is forced to go through most his resources to kill them off and try and rebuild. I play displacer and pass opponent has to cast only card in gifts and gives choice of ritual, ritual electromancer and Baral. I give him both creatures since i have 2x path in hand and he is one shy from casting the past in flames path one on his end step and one on my main to get in for the last 3 points. Game 2 He keeps my creatures down with spot removal, I get rest in peace to stick and doesn't have quite enough to storm off I end up wining with 2x eldrazi displacer since i was able to blink one with the other and keep lethal up (he was at 1) with the match he was 4 points short of killing me with 3x grapeshot in hand past in flames and 2x manamorphose (which got the past in flames and the third grapeshot.) Sp rest in peace as usual was the all-star.
I will probably run the lit back on Friday with switching out sanitarium for a wastes.
Judge's Familiar is here to fix issues against fast Combo-Decks (Storm) and block Affinity's Critters (a big flaw with other builds).
What is your opinion on that list?
Doesn't look bad, You can see my latest list below I posted before i read the other replies. Also if you look back a bit or ask catmix he also has a few variations of Mono-White Eldrazi Taxes. It's been a pet project of mine for awhile that started to get a bit smoother with the printing of Shefet Dunes.
Run what you think is good and post results. The one thing I do have to say is 7 1-drops is an awful lot and although they can have use early when you get to mid to late game or top deck war's it brings down the overall power of the deck even though inspector is a re draw. I personally usually don't run 1-drops in Eldrazi lists cat mix ran 4 inspector I believe in his list and did good on stream and in a few other events. Also Shefet Dunes is strictly better in this build than caves as a "Dual Land"
What do you guys think of Ixalan's Binding? Sounds like a nice card especially with the interaction with our flickers, or is it just too expensive at 4?
When Ixalan's Binding enters the battlefield, exile target nonland permanent an opponent controls until Ixalan's Binding leaves the battlefield.
Your opponents can't cast spells with the same name as the exiled card.
"Jace awoke to the certainty that he was lost."
The flicker doesn't work like the older card IE you cant flicker it with the ETB on the stack favorably because of the newer-style wording. I could see it maybe making into a version with Tidehollow sculler since you get information on opponent's hand but even then costing 5 with Thalia effect is very rough.
I think there's a lot to like about this build. Judge's Familiar and Moorland Haunt work really well together with an added colorless mana for Displacer. Displacer has a lot of tricks in this color combo, like displacing a Reflector Mage ad infinitum to lock out a creature for the entire game, Maze of ith-ing a Geist to ignore blockers, or doing Spell Queller shenanigans (Edit: whoops, forgot that doesn't actually work the way Displacer does with Sculler).
Tips, tricks, and/or suggestions? I've only been on D&T for a month but I really love the archetype and its room for creativity.
This seems decent as additional copies of Sculler. Newschool single-ETB/LTB-wording and no-creatures isn't ideal, but it feels like a better Brain Maggot thanks to flying and the 1/2 body. And BWez D&T lists tend to be light on flyers, right? (usually only Wisp?)
This seems decent as additional copies of Sculler. Newschool single-ETB/LTB-wording and no-creatures isn't ideal, but it feels like a better Brain Maggot thanks to flying and the 1/2 body. And BWez D&T lists tend to be light on flyers, right? (usually only Wisp?)
I think you might have missed that Freebooter can only hit "noncreature, nonland" cards. By contrast, Sculler and Brain Maggot are Thoughtseize with legs. Freebooter seems like it's more comparable to Sin Collector, but I'm not sure if it's an upgrade or a downgrade. Freebooter is more aggressive and more flexible on card types (both of which are good), but it's unfortunate that my opponents get their cards back and it can't be flickered for value.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
I decided I'd try out a full playset of both Leonin Arbiter and Phyrexian Revoker. Results have been pretty good. Revoker is great in a lot of matchups, and can easily be boarded out for better hate-cards in the sideboard. Sideboard is all creatures so I can maintain the threat density post-board.
Trying out a 1-of Kor Skyfisher that I've seen run in other lists. It's a nice way to reset Revoker or Cavern, or save a creature if Vial is on 2. It might be replaced by a Dismember... not sure.
I was running 4 Thraben Inspector for a while, but wasn't impressed. The card draw was nice, but I think having a playset of Horizon Canopy would negate the need for them - unfortunately, I don't own any right now.
Displacer is maindeck just for souls tokens (plus it's other utility). The rest of the cards don't really need any explanation.
I've been playing the following BW Eldrazi & Taxes list. Thraben Inspectors are no Dark Confidants, but they are a nice addition to the deck. As usual, the most troublesome aspect of the deck is its inconsistent manabase.
I was wondering if there is a consensual stock list for Mono White Eldrazi & Taxes, or at least main core cards that we can't miss. What would you recommend?
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Modern: BUR Grixis Death's Shadow/Control BUR & WBC Eldrazi & Taxes WBC
EDH: UG Edric, Spymaster of Goodstuff UG
I was running 4 Thraben Inspector for a while, but wasn't impressed. The card draw was nice, but I think having a playset of Horizon Canopy would negate the need for them - unfortunately, I don't own any right now.
I'm on the fence about the Inspectors, but feel like I need them without Canopy (I'm going the Desert route instead). Main reason is not wanting to spend almost ~$400 on a playset and I believe they'll be reprinted soon. Also, I've never been a fan of Copter in this deck from my testing with it in the past and that makes Inspector more valuable. I'm just not keen on adding any more non-creature spells in a deck focused on Vial + Thalia. If I ever bite the bullet on Canopy or they get reprinted and the price drops dramatically, I would definitely rather have other creatures in place of the Inspectors. This deck still
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Modern BG The Rock
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After a bit of playing, I'm on board for at least 2 Smuggler's copter (currently run 3) and 1-2 serra avenger. I've tried it without flying, and over and over again flying has been the main thing I missed!
Copter basically makes the blade splicer 1/1 a 3/3 flyer looter.
I had avenger out of the main for awhile but missed its ability to put on a clock and defend.
I play mono W version, similar to Brian Coval's deck and have a problems with ElTron... How to beat it?
My Sideboard plan:
Out -4 Vial, -2 Thalia.
In +2 Dusk, +3 Stony, +1 Leonin Relic Warder.
Disruption with pressure. One with out the other and you will be far more likely to loose. The thing is they (and normal tron) are so redundant you can't expect to put all your resources into disruption because without a clock they will just inevitably get huge eventually. Dusk // Dawn is the best card but it also means you can't really be on the land destruction plan. The land destruction plan is also much harder to do without vials. If you want to board in stony silence and out aether vial I would suggest also having something like banisher priest, it's disruption and a clock. Then just hope to hit a Dusk // Dawn if things don't go your way.
I prefer to keep in my vials and Thalias(it can really help against chalice) and get low. I board out any resto's and eldrazi displacers bring in Dusk // Dawn just in case and any beaters or banisher priest I have in the board. Then I use my lands and vials aggressively going for the race. If they hit Ugin or Karn we are just dead most of the time.
Once I was able to grind through 3 Ugins and reality smashers due to the golem tokens and path but then I was just out of resources and he dropped the 4th smasher. They have the inevitability so we have to be fast.
Add harsh mentor :3
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
4 thalia, guardian of thraben
4 leonin arbiter
2 serra avenger
2 selfless spirit
4 flickerwisp
4 blade splicer
2 aven mindcensor
2 eldrazi displacer
2 kitchen finks
3 restoration angel
4 aether vial
4 path to exile
lands 23
4 ghost quarter
3 tectonic edge
3 shefet dunes
2 mutavault
11 plains
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 sunlance
3 relic of progenitus
2 stony silence
2 dusk // dawn
1 eidolon of rhetoric
2 gideon of the trials
1 kitchen finks
Edit: went 2*-1-1
round1 infect (0-2)- Game one I missed 4th land drop with thalia so I couldn't selfless spirit and hold path up to block inkmoth nexus I decided to go with path route and vines beat me. Game 2 I play t2 arbiter opponent plays t1 hierarch t2 blighted agent I run out gideon and had brain fart forgetting hierarch could tap for mana and plussed on blighted he vines untapped and might of old krosa and become immense. looking back i should have just emblemed.
Round 2 Jeskai control (1-1-1) All three games were super grindy game 3 both of us were at 4 and no clear advantage when turn 5 ended. No slow play just 3 very long games one of the better matches I have played in a long time.
Round 3 Bye
Round 4 UW Control (2-0)- Game one I Kept pressure up with finks and a few creatures while holding splicer wisp in hand to rebuild after wrath and slowly won. G2 gideon finks beats with double resto angel up.
WDeath and TaxesW
RWGBurnGWR
It provides outs to the same troublesome creatures that Dusk//Dawn does, but at instant speed, and without the awkwardness of wiping our own Golems/Restos/Wisps. I'm a believer.
It’s been awhile since I’ve been on the mtgsalvation forum and in that time there are a bunch of new people here. Allow me to introduce myself for those that don’t know me. I’m dsmonsta. I’ve been playing Magic on and off since the dark days of 4th edition when cards were either broken beyond belief or gimped by modern standards but didn’t play beyond kitchen table until the summer of 2015 or grixis summer as it’s lovingly referred to. This was a time when eldrazi were a punchline and splinter twin made up over ten percent of the meta. DNT has been my go to deck and modern my go to format since then. I’m a player and deckbuilder of unimpressive skill but I can craft a manabase like no one’s business. For what it’s worth I primarily play white/green or straight white. These are my areas of expertise although I’m familiar with the rest of the deck.
I wrote the original DNT manabase primer in April of 2016 and I think it still is useful but the format is much changed since then and my own views have matured as well. The original post can be found here for reference. It is based in large part on Frank Karsten’s superb article regarding manabase construction which is available here and the birds of paradise mana failure table which can be found here . READ THESE! It should be noted that Karsten’s math is more complex than the raw tables and includes a hand selection bias in the math and the tables appear to be more restrictive. This is for good reason. The raw tables are just that, raw.
In general, I like to define the threshold of success of any uncertain task that I set out on before I set out on it in order to temper my own expectations and root them in reality. This prevents me from throwing the towel prematurely if things go rougher than expected or declaring victory when it’s unearned.
1. Reliably casting our spells on the curve.
This is the most important thing that we need mana for and lands are our mana producers. Yes, we have aether vial and green splashes would be remiss to not play a set of noble hierarch but most of our spells will be cast with mana produced by lands. This does not necessarily mean that we need to hit every land drop but we depend on advancing to the middle and late portion of the games while our opponents resources are tied up and they are unable to progress a board state beyond the early game. This is more important now than ever before with a plethora of unfair and quasi-fair decks making up tier one.
2. Provide land destruction
DNT is one of the only decks in format that plays four or more lands that have a primary use that is not producing mana or getting lands that produce mana. Let us start with the obvious. Every iteration of this deck plays four ghost quarters. This is a hard and fast rule. The number of Thalias and arbiters played is flexible but ghost quarter is a four of automatically. Sadly WOTC says we have to play by the same rules as everyone else and four is the limit. Many DNT variants will run tectonic edges supplementally. This is a cornerstone of the deck.
3. Provide additional utility
Nobody likes topdecking a land when the board state is stalled and a land that just taps for mana that you already have nothing to do with is even worse. This is why we run utility lands and it’s fairly unique in format to run more than one or two of these utility lands. These range from man lands that put power on the board, dodge sweepers and can’t be countered to card draw or even stranger. We must eke every benefit possible out of our lands due to the fact we run very few non-creature spells.
This question is almost always asked regarding noble hierarch and for good reason. A first turn hierarch that survives to make mana can enable some tremendously mean plays that shift the percentage for wins in our favor. My favorite is turn two arbiter and ghost quarter but aven mindcensor and Thalia, heretic cathar are very strong as well.
To answer the question though we must know what turn we want to cast these spells on. Consulting Karsten’s tables we see that the answer for the first turn noble hierarch is 14 untapped green sources which is simple enough. Do we really need to cast hierarch on turn one though? It enables strong plays and all but is much less likely to survive until turn two than an aether vial. Every time both are in my opener I have trouble deciding which to play.
On the other hand let us say that we want to be able to cast a card that costs 1W on turn two. The same table says 13 lands are necessary for that to happen with reliability. Lately, I’ve been running a greedier manabases than previously to squeeze every bit of utility out of my cards and have the best top decks possible.
Twenty three. Probably. This has been the popular answer for much of the history of this deck in the modern format and for good reason. We sacrifice our own lands all the time and still need to draw them as vial won’t be seen in nearly half of our games.
The main exception to playing 23 lands is that green splashes have access to noble hierarch which is awesome. This is very well supported in results and 22 is the default answer for green splashses but is not by any means authoritative. I’ve personally run 23 lands in green splashes to use a set of stirring wildwood but that was before fatal push was around and I won’t be doing that at the moment. Some claim that ramp sources let us run a lower land count as they produce more mana. My response is that we still need to draw them and 22 is lower than the 26 draws that can power a green splash while only actually playing 22 lands.
Fetchlands are a staple of every format where they’re legal and for good reason. They provide outstanding reliability in manabase construction as well as deck thinning for a negligible cost in life. Any three color and most two color decks will play at least a set with up to 10 being average. We prey on this with leonin arbiter and aven mindcensor to at least steal tempo and force removal and at most lock opponents out of the game.
We can run fetchlands too and play around our own arbiter. The spider knows what part of the web is sticky. The advanatage of this aside from mana fixing is that we can turn on revolt for renegade rallier and fatal push, take advantage of deck thinning (it’s overrated by most but over the course of a few days it will matter and something is better than nothing) and fetch basics to nullify a blood moon type effect. The disadvantages are that eventually you will get caught by your own arbiter and hatebears/dnt makes up ~5% of the metagame as of this writing so it is not something to be embarked upon lightly. Have a good reason to play fetches if you choose to.
Four. Almost always and no; you won’t auto-lose to burn. You’ll give up a few percentage points against burn and decks of it’s ilk which make up ~7% of the meta as of this writing but improve your chances with almost everything else and besides, we have a solid match against burn already.
Yes. Horizon canopy is expensive (as of this writing SCG is sold out at $100) and the second line of text may as well read “1, tap, sac: draw another land.” but that’s one card closer to what will win you the game and you need a compelling reason to not run four. Here are some good reasons: “I can’t afford them.” “I’m playing a splash that isn’t green.” “My meta is nothing but burn.”
Please note that this is my opinion and it’s a fairly contentious one even among those that have contributed a great amount to this thread and also the development of the deck. I will point out that every pro player that has top eighted a GP with this deck has played a set of canopys though.
Since fatal push emerged on the scene and the meta included more and more ghost quarters I’ve had less and less luck with manlands (looking in your direction stirring wildwood) which had previously been real winners. This is in part due to the fact that spending 1GW to activate it and having it die to one mana worth of tempo in either case is bad trade when previously it survived lightning bolt and abrupt decay; the two best removal spells in format. For this reason I don’t encourage the wholesale use of more than a couple manlands unless they’re low investment types like mutavault that opponents will be less likely to spend removal on and it’s not a huge tempo loss if they do.
The Innistrad cycle utility lands are by and large great. [card[Gavony township[/card] is widely used and for very good reason as it can put a tremendous amount of power on the board. Less utilized lands are moorland haunt and slayer’s stronghold. I’d like to think that this is due to blue and red being less popular splashes. Last but not least is {card]vault of the archangel[/card] which has a tremendous amount of potential but is infrequently played due to WB eldrazi and taxes having a ridiculously tight manabase already.
The Amonkhet and Hour of Devastation cycle of desert lands are something that I think has great potential. Thread contributors and streamers extroardinare Deathandcatmix and Spiderspace have both used shefet dunes to good result on stream and I use them in Wc eldrazi and taxes but the one that I believe has the most potential is scavenger grounds as it allows non-green decks to pack graveyard hate in the main deck. Furthermore this happens at time when grave hate, especially fast and reasonably costed graveyard hate is very important in the meta. I think hashep oasis has playability. This is primarily due to the fact that it can giant growth a mirran crusader for tremendous offensive potential. Lastly, ifnir deadlands seems useable as it provides removal that is land based.
Here are some sample manabases. Each is on the conservative side.
Here's my initial idea:
4 ghost quarter
2 mutavault
1 sea gate wreckage
4 caves of koilos
8 plains
3 thraben inspector
4 Aether vial
4 path to exile
4 thalia, thraben inspector
4 leonin arbiter
2 smuggler's Copter
4 flickerwisp
4 thought-knot seer
I opted to bring more of a white-weenie deck to the table.
Thraben INspector and Smuggler's Copter should fix bad draws.
Judge's Familiar is here to fix issues against fast Combo-Decks (Storm) and block Affinity's Critters (a big flaw with other builds).
What is your opinion on that list?
Green @ it's best
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
4 Matter Reshaper
1 Aven Mindcensor
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Reality Smasher
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
Lands 23
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
3 Shefet Dunes
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Geier Reach Sanitarium
10 Plains
2 Selfless SPirit
2 Lone Missionary
2 Rest in peace
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Sunlance
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Elspeth, Knight-errant
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Stony Silence
1 Aven Mindcensor
Round 1 G/R Ponza (2-1). Game 1 Her got a blood moon out and caught me with 2 TKS and 2 smasher i hand we went to top deck war which he eventually won. Game 2 I kept him off mana necessary to cast blood moon, stone rain till both cards were of no use. G3 early Thalia into TKS stripped relevant cards and I won through a little bit of removal.
Round 2 Goblins (2-1) Game one I stabiliezed at 13 life with opponent having 4 more creatures than me but my creatures being much bigger. He alpha striked I flash in mincensor and block going to 10 and he had double goblin grenade. Game 2 Elspeth did a lot of heavy lifting on defense and offence. Game 3 I strip on of his grenades away leaving him with one goblin in play greanade bolt (opponent was very aggressive with attacking into my favorable blocks to try and grenade grenade bolt for the win.) and me at 10. Shortly after I top deck lone missionary to take me completely out of burn out range and able to attack with wisp and selfless spirit for a few turns to win. This seems like a rough match for us but matter reshaped helped since legion loyalist doesn't let our golems block. but over all we can lose due to being slower.
Round 3 Grisebrand/Groyo's vengeance (1-2)- Game one I gaught T2 Thalia and caught opponent with spirit of the labyrinth off of vial when he tried to flashback his faithless looting taxes added up and opponent couldn't do much. G2 he is on the play he plays T1 faithless I play T1 Plains Vial, he goes off on his second turn. G3 I mull to 5 (no landers) keep plains, thalia, rest in peace, path, path scry smasher to bottom. T1 plains pass T2 miss on land pass he played T1 looting and T2 vengeance again before second activation of griselbran (he is at 5 from fetch) I path he discards had boroborygmos in grave and discards a through the breach. I top deck second land and after some thought play thalia over rest in peace since I saw one vengeance and he discarded (presumably extra) through the breach. He vengeance on the boro hits me down to 13 and discards land from boro to kill Thalia. Next turn I dont get third land and decide RIP should be the play to keep him from flashback on a looting he through the breach (not that Thalia is gone) a worldspine worm for the game.. This is one that I feel we have the advantage but rough G3 with the mulls.
G4 UR Baral Storm (2-0): Game one I get quick Thalia into spirit of the labyrinth and the opponent is forced to go through most his resources to kill them off and try and rebuild. I play displacer and pass opponent has to cast only card in gifts and gives choice of ritual, ritual electromancer and Baral. I give him both creatures since i have 2x path in hand and he is one shy from casting the past in flames path one on his end step and one on my main to get in for the last 3 points. Game 2 He keeps my creatures down with spot removal, I get rest in peace to stick and doesn't have quite enough to storm off I end up wining with 2x eldrazi displacer since i was able to blink one with the other and keep lethal up (he was at 1) with the match he was 4 points short of killing me with 3x grapeshot in hand past in flames and 2x manamorphose (which got the past in flames and the third grapeshot.) Sp rest in peace as usual was the all-star.
I will probably run the lit back on Friday with switching out sanitarium for a wastes.
WDeath and TaxesW
RWGBurnGWR
Doesn't look bad, You can see my latest list below I posted before i read the other replies. Also if you look back a bit or ask catmix he also has a few variations of Mono-White Eldrazi Taxes. It's been a pet project of mine for awhile that started to get a bit smoother with the printing of Shefet Dunes.
Run what you think is good and post results. The one thing I do have to say is 7 1-drops is an awful lot and although they can have use early when you get to mid to late game or top deck war's it brings down the overall power of the deck even though inspector is a re draw. I personally usually don't run 1-drops in Eldrazi lists cat mix ran 4 inspector I believe in his list and did good on stream and in a few other events. Also Shefet Dunes is strictly better in this build than caves as a "Dual Land"
The flicker doesn't work like the older card IE you cant flicker it with the ETB on the stack favorably because of the newer-style wording. I could see it maybe making into a version with Tidehollow sculler since you get information on opponent's hand but even then costing 5 with Thalia effect is very rough.
WDeath and TaxesW
RWGBurnGWR
Why yes, yes it would be
This seems decent as additional copies of Sculler. Newschool single-ETB/LTB-wording and no-creatures isn't ideal, but it feels like a better Brain Maggot thanks to flying and the 1/2 body. And BWez D&T lists tend to be light on flyers, right? (usually only Wisp?)
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Tectonic Edge
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Eiganjo Castle
13 Plains
Instant/Sorcery (4)
4 Path to Exile
Artifacts (4)
4 Aether Vial
Creatures (29)
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Blade Splicer
4 Flickerwisp
4 Restoration Angel
2 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Serra Avenger
1 Kor Skyfisher
2 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Kor Firewalker
2 Leonin Relic-Warder
2 Selfless Spirit
2 Fiend Hunter
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Linvala, Keeper of Silence
I decided I'd try out a full playset of both Leonin Arbiter and Phyrexian Revoker. Results have been pretty good. Revoker is great in a lot of matchups, and can easily be boarded out for better hate-cards in the sideboard. Sideboard is all creatures so I can maintain the threat density post-board.
Trying out a 1-of Kor Skyfisher that I've seen run in other lists. It's a nice way to reset Revoker or Cavern, or save a creature if Vial is on 2. It might be replaced by a Dismember... not sure.
I was running 4 Thraben Inspector for a while, but wasn't impressed. The card draw was nice, but I think having a playset of Horizon Canopy would negate the need for them - unfortunately, I don't own any right now.
Displacer is maindeck just for souls tokens (plus it's other utility). The rest of the cards don't really need any explanation.
I've been playing the following BW Eldrazi & Taxes list. Thraben Inspectors are no Dark Confidants, but they are a nice addition to the deck. As usual, the most troublesome aspect of the deck is its inconsistent manabase.
4 Concealed Courtyard
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Eldrazi Temple
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Shambling Vent
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Swamp
Spells (8)
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Thraben Inspector
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
3 Thoughtseize
2 Auriok Champion
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Rest in Peace
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Stony Silence
I was wondering if there is a consensual stock list for Mono White Eldrazi & Taxes, or at least main core cards that we can't miss. What would you recommend?
BUR Grixis Death's Shadow/Control BUR & WBC Eldrazi & Taxes WBC
EDH:
UG Edric, Spymaster of Goodstuff UG
I'm on the fence about the Inspectors, but feel like I need them without Canopy (I'm going the Desert route instead). Main reason is not wanting to spend almost ~$400 on a playset and I believe they'll be reprinted soon. Also, I've never been a fan of Copter in this deck from my testing with it in the past and that makes Inspector more valuable. I'm just not keen on adding any more non-creature spells in a deck focused on Vial + Thalia. If I ever bite the bullet on Canopy or they get reprinted and the price drops dramatically, I would definitely rather have other creatures in place of the Inspectors. This deck still
BG The Rock