@2imu while I am not personally keen on Nimble Obz, I like that you gave some shining examples of where it is useful! I think more discussion like this can help people determine why "fringe" cards can be viable in an open format such as Modern! Kudos for the efforts, fam!
Sidenote: I have previously tried to stream about new expansions rather than share my thoughts on DNT/Mtgsalvation forum. I am curious to hear how some of you would feel about me returning to formally making a DNT matters/related singles post here in the thread again. I moved away because there was a lot of contention on the subject of new cards overall. I think this set has pointed a few reasonable cards worth noting in our direction but I really think the forum has been... "civilized" and I do NOT want to disturb the healthy ecosystem (lulz).
Thanks, much appreciated! In response to your suggestion, I'll offer some thoughts.
I think any sort of information is good - so a collection of ideas about card choices, options, etc would be terrific no matter what :). In fact, if you want any help with such an effort, I'd be happy to contribute. But in terms of contention, arguments, discussions, etc, I think problems often stem from a major tendency of players (in general): to focus on decklists and card choices way, way, way more than how to play with specific decks and combinations of cards.
This is something that I've slowly learned and realized over the last year. Behind every successful decklist is an approach - whether it be an approach towards the current metagame, or an approach towards specific tendencies or playstyles, etc. This is why articles with sideboard guides are so great, because they offer insight into how you should be playing the deck, which makes it more intuitive why certain card selections are good. But while these are the real gold nuggets in terms of valuable information, they're also more difficult to write about, and good players are less likely to divulge them, since it's what sets them apart from "lesser" players (e.g. penips's post earlier). This leads to a lot of "hey guys, check out my list" posts, and "ew, why are you playing that card, it's terrible". I think if everyone strived to be more comprehensive in their posts (quality over quantity), and include thoughts for what they're trying to accomplish with odd or less common card choices, there would be less butting heads, etc, and we would all grow tremendously!
That being said, I'm always impressed with the amount of discussion going on in here.
So the last week ive been playing a similar list to the 2nd place list in Vegas. The great part about this deck is that it gives something to the deck that we have not really had. Horizon, Inspector, Blade Splicer and the 8 blink effects make a real engine of card advantage. It can be amazing how this deck flows through cards. Managed one 5-0 and two 4-1 in competitive leagues with it so far. Very fun to play and I feel like im back to a good ol "classic" D&T shell.
I thought this version of the deck was what everyone was already playing. 4 inspectors, all 8 4 drops, 4 splicers along with 4 wisps and restos which leaves you with 5 cards to add. Avenger/coptor seems to be two of them and then the other three are up in the air.
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14511&d=287006&f=MO Its pretty much what Wesco played back in January in the MOCs, I don't remember what anyone said about the list then so it could be worth going back in the forum posts to review.
[Not including SB plan as it very likely is changing in the upcoming week of testing]
R1 VS ELVES R(2-1) M(1-0)
G1: I keep a slow hand and opponent just flat out aggros me into Shaman of the Pack. Miserable
G2: I start with aggressive attacks that lead into Mirran Crusader. I win off opponent not comboing and getting run over too quickly.
G3: I have the Sunlance and Linvala help Crusader just steam roll. Mirran Crusader was a gem in this match up.
R2 VS DEATH SHADOW R(2-0) M(2-0)
G1: Opponent fumbles in mana and I have vial, thalia, and leonin arbiter without opponent having disruption. I draw a GQ and take him to zero permanents.
G2: I resolve Gideon, Mirran Crusader and Elpseth against opponent's miser gurmag angler.
R3 VS GR TRON R(2-0) M(3-0)
G1: He hits Tron on turn three but cannot present a threat. I end up tec'ing him back to a draft mana base. I beat down with thraben inspectors and thalia.
G2: He expedition maps to a turn 3 tron and plays oblivion stone but I have applied a ton of pressure (double thraben, Thalia, and serra avenger. I don't commit any major board presence beyond this knowing he can bomb off with Stone. I finally commits and i deploy an arbiter and GQ him. He pyrcolasms trying to stabilize. I play a crusader and another arbiter for lethal.
R4 VS BOROS BURN* R(1-2) M(3-1)
G1: He literally kills two Gideons w/ Emblem and deals 20 to me within 7 turns (GOLF CLAP).
G2: I literally commit the perfect: "BFT, THALIA, ARBITER AND GQ" to his one land & fetch keep.
G3: He uses a slew of Searing Blaze/Blood and suspends 3 Rift Bolts... * The opps tells me: he plays the scene every week and is tuned to beat down aggro decks. He is maining 8 cards that interact with creatures IE: THE SEARING PACKAGE. I'm not salty about the loss but pointing out that this should not skew your build or sb package. Opps stated he is literally preying on this meta for store credit and aware he's imbred his deck to do so!*
R5 VS E-TRON R(2-1) M(4-1)
G1: I literally didn't play Magic... I kept a one land and vial hand and opponent played turn two Thought-knot Seer.GG
G2 & G3: Virtually the same game twice. I deploy turn two Arbiter and proceed to GQ. Then a slew of aggro threats. Major difference in G3 was opps tried to Chalice me but Wisp knocked it off.
OVERALL(9-4)
PERCENTAGE WINS(69.2%)
PLACED: 3rd
Some notes:
I never cast Restoration Angel.
Smuggler's Copter was good against Drazi Tron. Like really good.
I never had the chance to draw cards from Canopy.
Mirran did a ton of work.
Linvala came in handy against Elves.
Thraben Inspector drew A LOT of cards.
Flagstones fixed my mana 7 times during the tournament with GQ help.
Boros Burn feels a bit harder than Naya Burn.
Wanted more Sunlance against Elves.
Conclusion:
It was nice to finally play paper again. It revitalized parts of my experience that MTGO does not offer. If I was going to make any changes it would be in the restoration angel and a miser crusader slots. Everything else felt great. I would as always keep looking at the sb configuration. Hope this helps!
-Catmix
I don't plan on running out to buy Canopy's anytime soon, but, with Thraben Inspector drawing us so many cards, how worth it do you think the Canopy's are? You say you never got to draw off of them. Were there any moments that you were really wishing you had one out to sac?
Mirran has been putting work in for me lately as well. I've actually gone up to 4 MB with only one Resto Angel as I feel it just sits in my hand a lot of games with no right time to play it or no chance to.
Lastly, I know you aren't writing your sideboard just yet, but just wanted to say I'm excited to hear about Walking Ballista! Seems spicy.
Hey guys I'm on BW eldrazi and taxes and I always have trouble with bant eldrazi. What would you guys suggest bringing in and siding out? I'm thinking of bringing in a worship for the matchup.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern
Death & Taxes
Fish
EDH
Teysa, Orzhov Scion
Roon of the Hidden Realm
Xenagos, God of Revels
Horizon Canopy: I think Canopy is important to help reduce variance. I wasn't missing it but I only played 5 Rounds so my variance was rather low. In a larger event, you'd at some point wish you had some number of card draw affects. I Think running Smuggler's Copter could help offset some of the variance as well. I actually had Drazi Tron in the dark named Aether Vial on Turn One. I used Copter to toss that ***** in the GY. So maybe give that a shot.
Mirran Crusader (aka True-Name Crusader aka Mono-White Goyf aka F*ck Tasigur): Yes! I am certain this card is that good. I cut the Blade Splicers after they tested pretty poorly online today. The Rest//Splicer Plan just doesn't get there for me. I am sure it has tons of merit in an open meta but Death Shadow, Goyf, Tasigur, Angler, Elves, and the likes are just too popular for me to keep trying to get there with 3/3s. I need that Pro-Color Savage True-Name Crusader!
Walking Ballista: I do NOT like losing to the Timmy decks (Soul-Sisters, BW Tokens, 8 Whack, etc). So I wanted something that could wreck them and not be a complete embarrassment in my board. Today, I brought them in against Elves and never saw it. They can be pretty good against Affinity, Other DNT shells, X/1 like Cliques & Confidants as well. The scaling also helps when drawn in later games with tons of mana. I like that and hangarback walkers as sb options in the current climate.
Still two left for $75 CAD in Canada (lightly played). Very tempting... especially since I could just flip them to another store for just as much. Eh... They have to be reprinted in the next 9 months anyway: 2 Masters set are coming.
Monowhite top again in the recent MTGO Competitive Modern League
Dusk/Dawn is the real deal now right?
Also btw horizon canopy sky rocketed by $16 to those who have and planning to buy (paper)
Dusk//Dawn? Huh? 2WW, taxed by Thalia, and 3WW, again taxed by Thalia seems like it'd hurt, and feels like you'd mainly want the second part in a control-ly MU, where the first feels bad. Good against Rock/Junk/Jund etc., I guess? Particularly in a mono-white deck, which these days, with copters, struggles to get the 3W for Resto staying open, I'm unconvinced on these due to the costs. Seems like the only thing of ours it hits is Thalia 2.0 and the Serras, as well as any splicer golems if you're running those. Not seeing the usefulness, personally.
Got one canopy, got no intention of getting any more until they drop. Which I hope they will, but been expecting port reprints for years, so...
My sideout whenever bringing in dusk/dawn would be thalia so I wouldn't worry about the tax much. think about the decks you want a board wipe effect that targets creatures over 3. The majority of them Thalia isn't good against such as any eldrazi deck (except b/w processors). Just my 2 cents but I think dusk/dawn is a great sideboard card right now against certain decks/metas.
Monowhite top again in the recent MTGO Competitive Modern League
Dusk/Dawn is the real deal now right?
Also btw horizon canopy sky rocketed by $16 to those who have and planning to buy (paper)
Dusk//Dawn? Huh? 2WW, taxed by Thalia, and 3WW, again taxed by Thalia seems like it'd hurt, and feels like you'd mainly want the second part in a control-ly MU, where the first feels bad. Good against Rock/Junk/Jund etc., I guess? Particularly in a mono-white deck, which these days, with copters, struggles to get the 3W for Resto staying open, I'm unconvinced on these due to the costs. Seems like the only thing of ours it hits is Thalia 2.0 and the Serras, as well as any splicer golems if you're running those. Not seeing the usefulness, personally.
Got one canopy, got no intention of getting any more until they drop. Which I hope they will, but been expecting port reprints for years, so...
Well the 2nd place monowhite DnT during GP vegas has dusk dawn. Also the recent MTGO Competitive Modern League report has 2 dusk dawn on SB so we cant really say it's not useful
Monowhite top again in the recent MTGO Competitive Modern League
Dusk/Dawn is the real deal now right?
Also btw horizon canopy sky rocketed by $16 to those who have and planning to buy (paper)
Dusk//Dawn? Huh? 2WW, taxed by Thalia, and 3WW, again taxed by Thalia seems like it'd hurt, and feels like you'd mainly want the second part in a control-ly MU, where the first feels bad. Good against Rock/Junk/Jund etc., I guess? Particularly in a mono-white deck, which these days, with copters, struggles to get the 3W for Resto staying open, I'm unconvinced on these due to the costs. Seems like the only thing of ours it hits is Thalia 2.0 and the Serras, as well as any splicer golems if you're running those. Not seeing the usefulness, personally.
Got one canopy, got no intention of getting any more until they drop. Which I hope they will, but been expecting port reprints for years, so...
I think it's definitely great. Sure it costs one more with Thalia out. But most scenarios she's not because you are trying to come back or stabilize against fatties.
Vial on 3, dusk, vial in Mirran crusader. Dawn next turn get every creature they've gotten rid of back, vial your choice in seems pretty good to me!
Monowhite top again in the recent MTGO Competitive Modern League
Dusk/Dawn is the real deal now right?
Also btw horizon canopy sky rocketed by $16 to those who have and planning to buy (paper)
Dusk//Dawn? Huh? 2WW, taxed by Thalia, and 3WW, again taxed by Thalia seems like it'd hurt, and feels like you'd mainly want the second part in a control-ly MU, where the first feels bad. Good against Rock/Junk/Jund etc., I guess? Particularly in a mono-white deck, which these days, with copters, struggles to get the 3W for Resto staying open, I'm unconvinced on these due to the costs. Seems like the only thing of ours it hits is Thalia 2.0 and the Serras, as well as any splicer golems if you're running those. Not seeing the usefulness, personally.
Got one canopy, got no intention of getting any more until they drop. Which I hope they will, but been expecting port reprints for years, so...
My sideout whenever bringing in dusk/dawn would be thalia so I wouldn't worry about the tax much. think about the decks you want a board wipe effect that targets creatures over 3. The majority of them Thalia isn't good against such as any eldrazi deck (except b/w processors). Just my 2 cents but I think dusk/dawn is a great sideboard card right now against certain decks/metas.
That's what I'm asking - when is this effect useful? Are we primarily looking at the boardwipe side? As I've seen no Eldrazi for ages, I do forget about that MU. Where else is it realistically useful? Affinity rarely has much above that threshold, in my experience, unless it's equipped in which case they move the plating. Plus, 2WW is rough to get. 3WW is just hilarious, IMHO, in a mono-white build - or do we ignore that side?
Well the top 2 most played deck is Deathshadow and eldratron. Could be useful to at least grind DS out
That's what I'm asking - when is this effect useful? Are we primarily looking at the boardwipe side? As I've seen no Eldrazi for ages, I do forget about that MU. Where else is it realistically useful? Affinity rarely has much above that threshold, in my experience, unless it's equipped in which case they move the plating. Plus, 2WW is rough to get. 3WW is just hilarious, IMHO, in a mono-white build - or do we ignore that side?
Dawn//dusk is a better wrath of god vs the top two decks in the format currently. At a minimum its killing one of your opponents creatures which is worth it and it only gets better from there. I'd even bring it in vs. the eldrazi and taxes mirror, you can play around well enough when you know its coming.
With dusk you obliterate all the tribal decks, shadows, tasigur, gurmag, tarmo, each and every eldrazi. If affinity goes overload with ravagers, counters from the overseer, the big things of knightfall, GW hatebears. Then, you use Down to recover thraben, splicer, mirran, Thalia...
Thanks, much appreciated! In response to your suggestion, I'll offer some thoughts.
I think any sort of information is good - so a collection of ideas about card choices, options, etc would be terrific no matter what :). In fact, if you want any help with such an effort, I'd be happy to contribute. But in terms of contention, arguments, discussions, etc, I think problems often stem from a major tendency of players (in general): to focus on decklists and card choices way, way, way more than how to play with specific decks and combinations of cards.
This is something that I've slowly learned and realized over the last year. Behind every successful decklist is an approach - whether it be an approach towards the current metagame, or an approach towards specific tendencies or playstyles, etc. This is why articles with sideboard guides are so great, because they offer insight into how you should be playing the deck, which makes it more intuitive why certain card selections are good. But while these are the real gold nuggets in terms of valuable information, they're also more difficult to write about, and good players are less likely to divulge them, since it's what sets them apart from "lesser" players (e.g. penips's post earlier). This leads to a lot of "hey guys, check out my list" posts, and "ew, why are you playing that card, it's terrible". I think if everyone strived to be more comprehensive in their posts (quality over quantity), and include thoughts for what they're trying to accomplish with odd or less common card choices, there would be less butting heads, etc, and we would all grow tremendously!
That being said, I'm always impressed with the amount of discussion going on in here.
I thought this version of the deck was what everyone was already playing. 4 inspectors, all 8 4 drops, 4 splicers along with 4 wisps and restos which leaves you with 5 cards to add. Avenger/coptor seems to be two of them and then the other three are up in the air.
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=14511&d=287006&f=MO Its pretty much what Wesco played back in January in the MOCs, I don't remember what anyone said about the list then so it could be worth going back in the forum posts to review.
WWModern Death And Taxes (w/ Militia Bugler) (JUL '19)
GWModern Maverick (JUL '19)
WBCatmix on Twitch!
WWCatmix on Youtube
WWModern Death And Taxes (w/ Militia Bugler) (JUL '19)
GWModern Maverick (JUL '19)
WBCatmix on Twitch!
WWCatmix on Youtube
WWModern Death And Taxes (w/ Militia Bugler) (JUL '19)
GWModern Maverick (JUL '19)
WBCatmix on Twitch!
WWCatmix on Youtube
Rounds: 5
Players: 27
Deck: Mono-White DNT
4 AETHER VIAL
2 SMUGGLER'S COPTER
2 GIDEON OF THE TRIALS
4 THRABEN INSPECTOR
4 LEONIN ARBITER
4 THALIA, GAURDIAN OF THRABEN
2 SERRA AVENGER
4 FLICKERWISP
3 MIRRAN CRUSADER
2 THALIA, HERETIC CATHAR
1 BRIMAZ, KING OF ORESKOS
2 RESTORATION ANGEL
1 EIGANJO CASTLE
3 FLAGSTONES OF TROKAIR
4 TECTONIC EDGE
4 GHOST QUARTER
8 PLAINS
1 ELSPETH KNIGHT-ERRANT
1 LINVALA, KEEPER OF SILENCE
2 EIDOLON OF RHETORIC
3 REST IN PEACE
2 WALKING BALLISTA
1 PHYREXIAN REVOKER
2 SUNLANCE
2 BURRENTON FORGE-TENDER
1 BASILISK COLLAR
[Not including SB plan as it very likely is changing in the upcoming week of testing]
R1 VS ELVES R(2-1) M(1-0)
G1: I keep a slow hand and opponent just flat out aggros me into Shaman of the Pack. Miserable
G2: I start with aggressive attacks that lead into Mirran Crusader. I win off opponent not comboing and getting run over too quickly.
G3: I have the Sunlance and Linvala help Crusader just steam roll. Mirran Crusader was a gem in this match up.
R2 VS DEATH SHADOW R(2-0) M(2-0)
G1: Opponent fumbles in mana and I have vial, thalia, and leonin arbiter without opponent having disruption. I draw a GQ and take him to zero permanents.
G2: I resolve Gideon, Mirran Crusader and Elpseth against opponent's miser gurmag angler.
R3 VS GR TRON R(2-0) M(3-0)
G1: He hits Tron on turn three but cannot present a threat. I end up tec'ing him back to a draft mana base. I beat down with thraben inspectors and thalia.
G2: He expedition maps to a turn 3 tron and plays oblivion stone but I have applied a ton of pressure (double thraben, Thalia, and serra avenger. I don't commit any major board presence beyond this knowing he can bomb off with Stone. I finally commits and i deploy an arbiter and GQ him. He pyrcolasms trying to stabilize. I play a crusader and another arbiter for lethal.
R4 VS BOROS BURN* R(1-2) M(3-1)
G1: He literally kills two Gideons w/ Emblem and deals 20 to me within 7 turns (GOLF CLAP).
G2: I literally commit the perfect: "BFT, THALIA, ARBITER AND GQ" to his one land & fetch keep.
G3: He uses a slew of Searing Blaze/Blood and suspends 3 Rift Bolts...
* The opps tells me: he plays the scene every week and is tuned to beat down aggro decks. He is maining 8 cards that interact with creatures IE: THE SEARING PACKAGE. I'm not salty about the loss but pointing out that this should not skew your build or sb package. Opps stated he is literally preying on this meta for store credit and aware he's imbred his deck to do so!*
R5 VS E-TRON R(2-1) M(4-1)
G1: I literally didn't play Magic... I kept a one land and vial hand and opponent played turn two Thought-knot Seer.GG
G2 & G3: Virtually the same game twice. I deploy turn two Arbiter and proceed to GQ. Then a slew of aggro threats. Major difference in G3 was opps tried to Chalice me but Wisp knocked it off.
OVERALL(9-4)
PERCENTAGE WINS(69.2%)
PLACED: 3rd
Some notes:
Conclusion:
It was nice to finally play paper again. It revitalized parts of my experience that MTGO does not offer. If I was going to make any changes it would be in the restoration angel and a miser crusader slots. Everything else felt great. I would as always keep looking at the sb configuration. Hope this helps!
-Catmix
WWModern Death And Taxes (w/ Militia Bugler) (JUL '19)
GWModern Maverick (JUL '19)
WBCatmix on Twitch!
WWCatmix on Youtube
I don't plan on running out to buy Canopy's anytime soon, but, with Thraben Inspector drawing us so many cards, how worth it do you think the Canopy's are? You say you never got to draw off of them. Were there any moments that you were really wishing you had one out to sac?
Mirran has been putting work in for me lately as well. I've actually gone up to 4 MB with only one Resto Angel as I feel it just sits in my hand a lot of games with no right time to play it or no chance to.
Lastly, I know you aren't writing your sideboard just yet, but just wanted to say I'm excited to hear about Walking Ballista! Seems spicy.
Thanks for all the content, as usual!
Death & Taxes
Fish
Teysa, Orzhov Scion
Roon of the Hidden Realm
Xenagos, God of Revels
Thank you very much!
Horizon Canopy: I think Canopy is important to help reduce variance. I wasn't missing it but I only played 5 Rounds so my variance was rather low. In a larger event, you'd at some point wish you had some number of card draw affects. I Think running Smuggler's Copter could help offset some of the variance as well. I actually had Drazi Tron in the dark named Aether Vial on Turn One. I used Copter to toss that ***** in the GY. So maybe give that a shot.
Mirran Crusader (aka True-Name Crusader aka Mono-White Goyf aka F*ck Tasigur): Yes! I am certain this card is that good. I cut the Blade Splicers after they tested pretty poorly online today. The Rest//Splicer Plan just doesn't get there for me. I am sure it has tons of merit in an open meta but Death Shadow, Goyf, Tasigur, Angler, Elves, and the likes are just too popular for me to keep trying to get there with 3/3s. I need that Pro-Color Savage True-Name Crusader!
Walking Ballista: I do NOT like losing to the Timmy decks (Soul-Sisters, BW Tokens, 8 Whack, etc). So I wanted something that could wreck them and not be a complete embarrassment in my board. Today, I brought them in against Elves and never saw it. They can be pretty good against Affinity, Other DNT shells, X/1 like Cliques & Confidants as well. The scaling also helps when drawn in later games with tons of mana. I like that and hangarback walkers as sb options in the current climate.
WWModern Death And Taxes (w/ Militia Bugler) (JUL '19)
GWModern Maverick (JUL '19)
WBCatmix on Twitch!
WWCatmix on Youtube
Dusk/Dawn is the real deal now right?
Also btw horizon canopy sky rocketed by $16 to those who have and planning to buy (paper)
WBC Eldrazi and Taxes
WCopter and Taxes
CVIAL is layf
WBC Eldrazi & Taxes CBW
UR Keep on Cantripin' (UR Phoenix) RU
WU Surprise! It's not UW Control! (UW Midrange) UW
BG The Rock, Straight BG
U Mono-Blue Fish U
RBW Mardu Pyromancer BWR
RG Rabble! Rabble! (GR Blood Moon Aggro) GR
Legacy
W Death & Taxes W
My sideout whenever bringing in dusk/dawn would be thalia so I wouldn't worry about the tax much. think about the decks you want a board wipe effect that targets creatures over 3. The majority of them Thalia isn't good against such as any eldrazi deck (except b/w processors). Just my 2 cents but I think dusk/dawn is a great sideboard card right now against certain decks/metas.
Well the 2nd place monowhite DnT during GP vegas has dusk dawn. Also the recent MTGO Competitive Modern League report has 2 dusk dawn on SB so we cant really say it's not useful
WBC Eldrazi and Taxes
WCopter and Taxes
CVIAL is layf
I think it's definitely great. Sure it costs one more with Thalia out. But most scenarios she's not because you are trying to come back or stabilize against fatties.
Vial on 3, dusk, vial in Mirran crusader. Dawn next turn get every creature they've gotten rid of back, vial your choice in seems pretty good to me!
Well the top 2 most played deck is Deathshadow and eldratron. Could be useful to at least grind DS out
WBC Eldrazi and Taxes
WCopter and Taxes
CVIAL is layf
Orzhov Pontiff: I've played a ton with BW DNT. Check these two lists out for a starting point bw dnt 1 and bw dnt 2
WWModern Death And Taxes (w/ Militia Bugler) (JUL '19)
GWModern Maverick (JUL '19)
WBCatmix on Twitch!
WWCatmix on Youtube
Dawn//dusk is a better wrath of god vs the top two decks in the format currently. At a minimum its killing one of your opponents creatures which is worth it and it only gets better from there. I'd even bring it in vs. the eldrazi and taxes mirror, you can play around well enough when you know its coming.
I totally go for it.
WBC Eldrazi & Taxes CBW
UR Keep on Cantripin' (UR Phoenix) RU
WU Surprise! It's not UW Control! (UW Midrange) UW
BG The Rock, Straight BG
U Mono-Blue Fish U
RBW Mardu Pyromancer BWR
RG Rabble! Rabble! (GR Blood Moon Aggro) GR
Legacy
W Death & Taxes W