Lt, you still running the RW build? How's yours performing in the more aggressive meta now? Care to share your current list if so? Always love testing out new variants.
So the most recent big result for mono white DandT was at the SCG modern classic in Columbus, and it ran 4 one drops in the form of one Dryad Militant one Weathered wayfarer and 2 Kytheon, Hero of Akros and I want to run some of these but I don' know which one to pick or what cards to cut to replace it. What do you guys think are the best I'm thinking of having 2 slots for them.
I'm a fan of Dryad Militant. On paper its effect doesn't look like much but life get's sooo much easier when Snapcasters don't have Bolts to flashback, when Tarmogoyfs are just that tiny bit less powerfull and Become Immense is beyond the opponents reach. Also, its great to Vial in so it can block Goblin Guides.
I run a full playset since they hose most decks in my meta. Truthfully i dont think i would ever drop them for any other card currently. I initially added 4 dread militant and 3 judges familiar to deal with all the control and storm decks in my meta, but fell in love with them as i have rarely lost with a turn 1 vial into a turn 2 Thalia and militant.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Standard: No Time
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
My fellow GW D&T Lovers, I am considering going to the other side in a spin of the deck designed to be a beatdown deck with taxing elements and grind out with Gavony Township. Has something like this been tried before?
Not including the classic Arbiter value package means less free wins, but the deck should be very solid against Control, creature decks and BGx, also the inclusion of the Birds, 3 drops can be smoothly played without the need to uptick vial, plus it flies so it's great with Gavony Township. The sideboard may be too cute, but not having arbiter and being able to abuse Chord as 4x copies of any 1-of we're bringing makes the deck a lot more consistent, and it's not that much of a non-bo with thalia, as you can drop the amount of guardians you play by being able to fetch them anyway should you need them.
The only shaky card in the board is the Pontiff, which can't be cast off the manabase, but we can always chord for it or cast off birds /vial it in should we draw it.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In Lorwyn's brief evenings, the sun pauses at the horizon long enough for a certain species of violet to bloom with the fragrance of mischief.
@Darktutor, your list seems to be all over the place. It looks like you're trying to jam flickerwisp into a wilt leaf package with hero of bladehold. As good as flickerwisp is it doesn't have any good value targets on your side. I also think your curve is too high as 14 three drops and 4 three drops seems a bit high even with 23 lands. I'm not a fan of 23 lands unless running a set of canopys and 3+ stirring wildwood. Finally, hierarchs are just better than birds.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Your success in playing dnt/hatebears is determined largely by your ability to read and prepare for the meta that you will be playing in. Furthermore, it has an absolutely brutal learning curve. Expect to lose; a lot.
Lt, you still running the RW build? How's yours performing in the more aggressive meta now? Care to share your current list if so? Always love testing out new variants.
Having 3 magus makes sideboarding easy, you can just take them out and pretty much become a mono white deck if you are playing vs. something that doesn't really card about the red mana, and copter + blade splicer is really nice to go turn 2 into turn 3. Also not sure on how many needle spires I want in the deck, right now I'm just copying the E&T plan of playing either 1 or 3. You could probably swap some plains for other lands, you just dont want to get stuck under your own magus if you don't have an aether vial.
My fellow GW D&T Lovers, I am considering going to the other side in a spin of the deck designed to be a beatdown deck with taxing elements and grind out with Gavony Township. Has something like this been tried before?
Not including the classic Arbiter value package means less free wins, but the deck should be very solid against Control, creature decks and BGx, also the inclusion of the Birds, 3 drops can be smoothly played without the need to uptick vial, plus it flies so it's great with Gavony Township. The sideboard may be too cute, but not having arbiter and being able to abuse Chord as 4x copies of any 1-of we're bringing makes the deck a lot more consistent, and it's not that much of a non-bo with thalia, as you can drop the amount of guardians you play by being able to fetch them anyway should you need them.
The only shaky card in the board is the Pontiff, which can't be cast off the manabase, but we can always chord for it or cast off birds /vial it in should we draw it.
dsmonsta is right. This list is trying to do too many things at once. It looks like Hatebears with Flickerwisp instead of Voice of Resurgence.
A lot of us, even on WG, have (temporarily) stopped using Arbiter. I've lost a lot of games because that slot in the deck needed to be more impactful. I'm currently running Voice of Resurgence in the two-drop slot, and it wins me more games than Arbiter ever did.
As dsmonsta suggested, Noble Hierarch is much better than BoP and it's not close. That exalted trigger makes a world of difference.
The lack of Ghost Quarter gives your list a strange vulnerability to Tron and Infect, which are typically matchups that are pretty good for us. You probably had to cut a few colorless sources to make room for Chord of Calling, but that's a pretty large price to pay for toolboxing.
I've made all kinds of WG lists. Some are low to the ground. Some are midrange. Some are toolbox decks. But your list is an amalgamation of all three, and it's going to lose you a lot of games.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
CharonsObol: So your're saying that arbiter is outclassed in decks like G/W and possibly B/W (Bob)(Sculler) but is likely still a go to in Mono-White and I would assume R/W because of the land hate.
CharonsObol: So your're saying that arbiter is outclassed in decks like G/W and possibly B/W (Bob)(Sculler) but is likely still a go to in Mono-White and I would assume R/W because of the land hate.
I'm saying that Leonin Arbiter has lost me a lot of games. Probably more games than it has won for me. As a result, I've moved away from it recently.
There are only a few possible options for Arbiter:
1) Arbiter is relevant and my opponent destroys it.
2) Arbiter is relevant and my opponent loses.
3) Arbiter isn't relevant and my opponent doesn't care.
Option (2) is the desirable one, but it's uncommon, because Modern is a format filled with removal. Much more often, (1) or (3) is true. (3) is terrible, because Arbiter is just a vanilla 2/2. (1) is reasonably likely, but only while my opponent and I are still curving out; between Arbiter, Vial, Thalia, and my manabase, I personally needed fewer bad late-game topdecks.
In my mono-white lists, I've got some kind of Arbiter/Mindcensor split, because I tend to like search taxes. But Catmix has been very successful without search taxes at all; he runs Phyrexian Revoker in the Arbiter slot.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
Jut want to throw my thoughts out into this thread, because this has been bugging me for quite some time.
My two favorite cards in this game are Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Dark Confidant. They are each incredibly powerful in their own right, and essentially warp the pace of the game to your favor.
The obvious shell that make the most sense in modern for these cards is Death and Taxes. Hell, the most prominent DnT deck is already Black/White! And yet, every time I play this amazing deck of ours, the mono white version always *always* feels strongest. And even when I'm on Black/White, Dark Confidant feels awkward somehow. I'm not experienced enough with DnT to understand why this is happening, but it makes me feel awful for trying to jam Dark Confidant into the deck.
Can anyone help shed some light on this problem? Is it futile to try to put Bob into our deck? If so, what is it that makes him not right for DnT?
At the very least, I'd love to see the DnT list that best utilizes Dark Confidant so I can playtest the hell out of it, so I can get a better intuition for what's going on.
I think darktutor has a version of D&T that jams Dark Confidant. I don't think it's a bad idea, but Bob demands some curve concessions that push you away from the canonical D&T formula. Not to say that it isn't worth exploring, but just be cognizant that your curve has to run low for it to be good. I don't think it fits in well in something like WBC Eldrazi & Taxes, for example. However, the advent of Fatal Push and the fact that D&T typically features lands like Ghost Quarter to turn on Revolt make it possible to envision a more removal-heavy version of WB D&T that features Dark Confidant and could potentially do well.
Hi, this question could be out of the topic right now, but I would like if someone have a list of how could be the deck in modern if stoneforge is unbanned?
CharonsObol: So your're saying that arbiter is outclassed in decks like G/W and possibly B/W (Bob)(Sculler) but is likely still a go to in Mono-White and I would assume R/W because of the land hate.
I'm saying that Leonin Arbiter has lost me a lot of games. Probably more games than it has won for me. As a result, I've moved away from it recently.
There are only a few possible options for Arbiter:
1) Arbiter is relevant and my opponent destroys it.
2) Arbiter is relevant and my opponent loses.
3) Arbiter isn't relevant and my opponent doesn't care.
Option (2) is the desirable one, but it's uncommon, because Modern is a format filled with removal. Much more often, (1) or (3) is true. (3) is terrible, because Arbiter is just a vanilla 2/2. (1) is reasonably likely, but only while my opponent and I are still curving out; between Arbiter, Vial, Thalia, and my manabase, I personally needed fewer bad late-game topdecks.
In my mono-white lists, I've got some kind of Arbiter/Mindcensor split, because I tend to like search taxes. But Catmix has been very successful without search taxes at all; he runs Phyrexian Revoker in the Arbiter slot.
Actually, I think arbiter is better than ever right now. I seem to run into countless numbers of burn and valakut decks online. Also, decks seem to be pushing the number of fetches in order to accommodate for fatal push.
Although, I do understand what you mean about trying to get a better topdeck and your three scenarios with arbiter as well as your general frustration with it. To be fair though, I don't think your third scenario happens that often. A deck has to be running no or little search effects or fetches and the only tiered deck that comes to mind there is affinity (and merfolk if it has any kind of comeback). In fact, option 1 is the most common of those three which I'm honestly fine with. Our whole deck dies to push/bolt... I also think you're missing a scenario wherein the opponent is slowed by it (has to play around it), but also doesn't lose to it or destroy it. Having said that, I think that scenario is quite common and is totally acceptable. In fact, those scenarios are exactly the same with thalia and taxers in general (yes, phyrexian revoker too, except it's harder to outright win with it). We're trying to slow down our opponent without slowing ourselves while getting the beats on. Having said all that, I do understand just how frustrating a 2/2 beatstick is when we're facing 1 mana 4/5s and 2 mana 7/8s...
Furthermore, I'm surprised that you made this change in GW of all lists as GW (with the aid of our handy dandy mana dork) has the best ability to make your golden scenario two occur.
Point is, while I totally get not being a fan of arbiter, I don't think there's a special meta reason to cut it now in particular.
Sea Gate Wreckage looks like a nonbo with Bob. Probably don't want to get cute with your mana, just be consistent. Probably want a couple of Shambling Vents.
Spellskite is a bit weird on the curve and it lacks aggression, but I really like selfless spirit for protection. Makes me want to try Judge's Familiar as a play on turn 2 off a vial into Bob. Seems like good protection and it's cheap for Bob flips.
I really don't like playing more than 22 lands in modern unless I'm leaning heavy control where I absolutely need to hit my land drops.
I would go -2 Sea Gate Wreckage -1 Caves of Koilos -2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar -2 Spellskite +2 shambling vents +1 selfless spirit +4 Judge's familiar.
As for sideboard,not sure Sunlance is better than path or push 3-4.
Persecution should probably be Orzhov Pontiff, at least to start testing, but Haunt seems good with the 8 self sacrifice creatures, which also makes Push great. (speaking of which, IIUC, it has been argued in this threat that running a couple of fetches is feasible, which would probably mean -2 Caves of Koilos, +2 Marsh Flats).
I never liked stony silence, so I'm gonna try fragmentize because I've just wanted to play more with that card. Also, I'm gonna mess around with leonin relic-warder
Also, seems wrong not to have some lingering souls in the board. I might go something like -2 mirran crusader +2 souls. crusader is a little underpowered in modern as both BG decks have removal for it vis a vis lightning bolt or path to exile. It's great in legacy because the predominant BG deck is BUG.
As I'm thinking about it, it seems with Bob, you are playing less 3 drops, which means you can ostensibly leave Vial on 2 for a little while longer. This, however, is actually the trick to why you feel so weird about Bob: D&T is fundamentally a deck that leverages Aether Vial to play powerful 3 drops while using its lands to punish opponents. That's how it is in Legacy, and that's how it tries to be in Modern.
The fundamental tension is that Bob pushes you towards low drops while vial pushes you to 3 drops. The deck is filled with powerful cards and powerful synergies, so it's bound to do well, but this seems like a mechanical flaw.
What do you guys think about Hope of Ghirapur? It seems to be very good as 1 cmc
Edit: Shuts counterspells down, disables answers to stripmines (GQ + Leonin), disable many combos to go off, disable sorcery speed removals, getting removed allows you to deploy better threats and the list goes on... Seems pretty solid, don't you think?
CharonsObol: So your're saying that arbiter is outclassed in decks like G/W and possibly B/W (Bob)(Sculler) but is likely still a go to in Mono-White and I would assume R/W because of the land hate.
I'm saying that Leonin Arbiter has lost me a lot of games. Probably more games than it has won for me. As a result, I've moved away from it recently.
There are only a few possible options for Arbiter:
1) Arbiter is relevant and my opponent destroys it.
2) Arbiter is relevant and my opponent loses.
3) Arbiter isn't relevant and my opponent doesn't care.
Option (2) is the desirable one, but it's uncommon, because Modern is a format filled with removal. Much more often, (1) or (3) is true. (3) is terrible, because Arbiter is just a vanilla 2/2. (1) is reasonably likely, but only while my opponent and I are still curving out; between Arbiter, Vial, Thalia, and my manabase, I personally needed fewer bad late-game topdecks.
In my mono-white lists, I've got some kind of Arbiter/Mindcensor split, because I tend to like search taxes. But Catmix has been very successful without search taxes at all; he runs Phyrexian Revoker in the Arbiter slot.
@Spider: There's a lot going on in your post, but I'll try to get to all of it:
Actually, I think arbiter is better than ever right now. I seem to run into countless numbers of burn and valakut decks online. Also, decks seem to be pushing the number of fetches in order to accommodate for fatal push.
This may be true, but I don't play online. Most of my metagame sees Fatal Push for what it is: a slight upgrade to certain removal spells, but it doesn't change the card type distribution in any already-playable archetype. In other words, Fatal Push may be making fetchlands more attractive in other metagames, but not mine; nobody in my metagame is tweaking their already-tuned manabase to make room for Fatal Push.
Although, I do understand what you mean about trying to get a better topdeck and your three scenarios with arbiter as well as your general frustration with it. To be fair though, I don't think your third scenario happens that often. A deck has to be running no or little search effects or fetches and the only tiered deck that comes to mind there is affinity (and merfolk if it has any kind of comeback). In fact, option 1 is the most common of those three which I'm honestly fine with. Our whole deck dies to push/bolt...
That third scenario happens all the time, especially late in the game. If the game has gone longer than four turns, Arbiter loses almost all of its value. Valakut decks just pay 2 and then Scapeshift anyway. Chord decks are filled with dorks, so they just Convoke their way through it. It's rare that I play against a Gifts deck, but if your Arbiter is still alive then they've played their removal wrong.
On the curve, Arbiter is better, but most decks that care about it simply burn it and keep going. I can't tell you how often this sequence happens to me against Burn:
My T1: Land, Vial
Opp T1: Fetch, Shock, Goblin Guide, swing for 2
My T2: Vial at 1, Land, Arbiter
Opp T2: Shock, Searing Blaze, swing for 2 with Guide
Or, if I'm on the draw, the Burn player gets two full turns to crack their fetchlands before I can even play the Arbiter. A good burn player willsequence his or her land drops properly, and he or she won't use flexible removal until the end of the game.
I also think you're missing a scenario wherein the opponent is slowed by it (has to play around it), but also doesn't lose to it or destroy it. Having said that, I think that scenario is quite common and is totally acceptable. In fact, those scenarios are exactly the same with thalia and taxers in general (yes, phyrexian revoker too, except it's harder to outright win with it). We're trying to slow down our opponent without slowing ourselves while getting the beats on. Having said all that, I do understand just how frustrating a 2/2 beatstick is when we're facing 1 mana 4/5s and 2 mana 7/8s...
This is fair, but Arbiter is usually worse at buying me time because my opponent can either find a removal spell or find two more lands. I haven't cut my search taxes entirely; I'm just running Aven Mindcensor instead.
I think my experiences with Arbiter are much more similar to Catmix's experiences than they are to yours; Arbiter can be great, but it's a tempo-like disruption rather than a control element. If I'm going to be the control deck in a given matchup, I'd rather be playing cards that my opponent must deal with.
Furthermore, I'm surprised that you made this change in GW of all lists as GW (with the aid of our handy dandy mana dork) has the best ability to make your golden scenario two occur.
This is a fair point, although you already know how I feel about the Hierarch-fueled land destruction play; even running four copies of Hierarch, Arbiter, and Ghost Quarter, you only have a ~4% chance of having a T2 land destruction play, and that's before any interaction from your opponent (like discard or removal). Plus, I don't actually run four copies of Hierarch, so with my three copies instead, the likelihood of that play drops down to just over 3%.
All that said, I still almost never go for the T2 land destruction play. It seems good in a vacuum, but going for it has actually lost me a lot of games. I either lose because my opponent removes the Arbiter in response or I lose because my opponent is playing some midrange deck with more land drops than me, and I can't recover from cracking my own Ghost Quarter that early in a game. I think there's a sweet spot for cracking Ghost Quarters in every matchup, and it always occurs around T3-5 anyway, which is more than enough time to play a Mindcensor instead of an Arbiter.
Point is, while I totally get not being a fan of arbiter, I don't think there's a special meta reason to cut it now in particular.
I can agree with this, although I think Arbiter went from mediocre before to slightly-less-mediocre now.
I'd much rather be running Voice of Resurgence, which is really hard to remove for value. When someone removes your Arbiter with Fatal Push, he or she has gained one mana worth of tempo on you. When someone removes my Voice of Resurgence with Fatal Push, he or she has one mana of tempo to deal with the elemental token, and if that person opts to remove it, I've gained card advantage. Voice of Resurgence is like Thalia and and Lingering Souls in that respect: it's an unconditional way of punishing your opponent for running targeted removal. And consequently, it's winning me more games than Arbiter because it's much better on its own.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
I run a full playset since they hose most decks in my meta. Truthfully i dont think i would ever drop them for any other card currently. I initially added 4 dread militant and 3 judges familiar to deal with all the control and storm decks in my meta, but fell in love with them as i have rarely lost with a turn 1 vial into a turn 2 Thalia and militant.
Modern: Jund Midrange BRG
Legacy: Shardless Bug BUG
For those interested I'll be streaming a WU trophy mage list in a couple of minutes.
4 tectonic edge
4 ghost quarter
2 sea gate wreckage
2 horizon canopy
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains
8 non creature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Selfless Spirit
2 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 blade splicer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sundering Growth
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
2 Brushland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 stirring wildwood
2 Gavony Township
1 tectonic edge
1 gemstone caverns
10 noncreature spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Collected Company
28 creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Restoration Angel
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
1 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Gemstone Caverns
8 Noncreature Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Spellskite
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sin Collector
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Worship
3 Brushland
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Temple Garden
10 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Ancient Stirrings
4 Path to exile
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Leonin Arbiter
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
1 Eternal Witness
4 Thought-knot seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Worship
1 Spellskite
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Mutavault
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 adarkar wastes
1 flooded strand
9 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 detention sphere
28 creatures
3 Spell Queller
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 eldrazi displacer
3 Reflector Mage
4 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 leonin arbiter
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
2 stony silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 ghostly prison
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 Surgical Extraction
1 kira, great glass-spinner
1 blessed alliance
4x Aether Vial
4x Path to Exile
Creatures:
4x Birds of Paradise
3x Selfless Spirit
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Flickerwisp
4x Loxodon Smiter
2x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2x Kitchen Finks
2x Hero of Bladehold
2x Wilt-Leaf Liege
3x Gavony Township
4x Windswept Heath
2x Horizon Canopy
2x Temple Garden
1x Forest
3x Plains
1x Eiganjo Castle
2x Tectonic Edge
1x Stirring Wildwood
4x Razorverge Thicket
3x Rest in Peace
3x Stony Silence
1x Kataki, War's Wage
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Eternal Witness
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Burrenton Forge-Tender
1x Gaddock Teeg
3x Chord of Calling
Not including the classic Arbiter value package means less free wins, but the deck should be very solid against Control, creature decks and BGx, also the inclusion of the Birds, 3 drops can be smoothly played without the need to uptick vial, plus it flies so it's great with Gavony Township. The sideboard may be too cute, but not having arbiter and being able to abuse Chord as 4x copies of any 1-of we're bringing makes the deck a lot more consistent, and it's not that much of a non-bo with thalia, as you can drop the amount of guardians you play by being able to fetch them anyway should you need them.
The only shaky card in the board is the Pontiff, which can't be cast off the manabase, but we can always chord for it or cast off birds /vial it in should we draw it.
I've been playing this one:
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Inspiring Vantage
3 Needle Spires
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Slayers' Stronghold
6 Plains
4 Path to Exile
2 Smuggler's Copter
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Selfless Spirit
4 Blade Splicer
3 Magus of the Moon
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
Having 3 magus makes sideboarding easy, you can just take them out and pretty much become a mono white deck if you are playing vs. something that doesn't really card about the red mana, and copter + blade splicer is really nice to go turn 2 into turn 3. Also not sure on how many needle spires I want in the deck, right now I'm just copying the E&T plan of playing either 1 or 3. You could probably swap some plains for other lands, you just dont want to get stuck under your own magus if you don't have an aether vial.
Sideboard has been a mix of
- Rest in Peace
- Bonfire of the Damned
- Wer/Tear
- Stun Sniper
- Blessed Alliance
- Burrenton Forge-Tender
- Flame Slash
- Pia and Kiran Nalaar
and some planeswalkers.I was playing this one previously but I think playing restoration angel + blade splicer is too good to pass up.
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Sacred Foundry
4 Inspiring Vantage
5 Plains
2 Hanweir Battlements
4 Path to Exile
2 Sword of War and Peace
4 Judge's Familiar
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Flickerwisp
3 Magus of the Moon
2 Pia Nalaar
2 Hanweir Garrison
A lot of us, even on WG, have (temporarily) stopped using Arbiter. I've lost a lot of games because that slot in the deck needed to be more impactful. I'm currently running Voice of Resurgence in the two-drop slot, and it wins me more games than Arbiter ever did.
As dsmonsta suggested, Noble Hierarch is much better than BoP and it's not close. That exalted trigger makes a world of difference.
The lack of Ghost Quarter gives your list a strange vulnerability to Tron and Infect, which are typically matchups that are pretty good for us. You probably had to cut a few colorless sources to make room for Chord of Calling, but that's a pretty large price to pay for toolboxing.
I've made all kinds of WG lists. Some are low to the ground. Some are midrange. Some are toolbox decks. But your list is an amalgamation of all three, and it's going to lose you a lot of games.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
There are only a few possible options for Arbiter:
1) Arbiter is relevant and my opponent destroys it.
2) Arbiter is relevant and my opponent loses.
3) Arbiter isn't relevant and my opponent doesn't care.
Option (2) is the desirable one, but it's uncommon, because Modern is a format filled with removal. Much more often, (1) or (3) is true. (3) is terrible, because Arbiter is just a vanilla 2/2. (1) is reasonably likely, but only while my opponent and I are still curving out; between Arbiter, Vial, Thalia, and my manabase, I personally needed fewer bad late-game topdecks.
In my mono-white lists, I've got some kind of Arbiter/Mindcensor split, because I tend to like search taxes. But Catmix has been very successful without search taxes at all; he runs Phyrexian Revoker in the Arbiter slot.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
My two favorite cards in this game are Thalia, Guardian of Thraben and Dark Confidant. They are each incredibly powerful in their own right, and essentially warp the pace of the game to your favor.
The obvious shell that make the most sense in modern for these cards is Death and Taxes. Hell, the most prominent DnT deck is already Black/White! And yet, every time I play this amazing deck of ours, the mono white version always *always* feels strongest. And even when I'm on Black/White, Dark Confidant feels awkward somehow. I'm not experienced enough with DnT to understand why this is happening, but it makes me feel awful for trying to jam Dark Confidant into the deck.
Can anyone help shed some light on this problem? Is it futile to try to put Bob into our deck? If so, what is it that makes him not right for DnT?
At the very least, I'd love to see the DnT list that best utilizes Dark Confidant so I can playtest the hell out of it, so I can get a better intuition for what's going on.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
Actually, I think arbiter is better than ever right now. I seem to run into countless numbers of burn and valakut decks online. Also, decks seem to be pushing the number of fetches in order to accommodate for fatal push.
Although, I do understand what you mean about trying to get a better topdeck and your three scenarios with arbiter as well as your general frustration with it. To be fair though, I don't think your third scenario happens that often. A deck has to be running no or little search effects or fetches and the only tiered deck that comes to mind there is affinity (and merfolk if it has any kind of comeback). In fact, option 1 is the most common of those three which I'm honestly fine with. Our whole deck dies to push/bolt... I also think you're missing a scenario wherein the opponent is slowed by it (has to play around it), but also doesn't lose to it or destroy it. Having said that, I think that scenario is quite common and is totally acceptable. In fact, those scenarios are exactly the same with thalia and taxers in general (yes, phyrexian revoker too, except it's harder to outright win with it). We're trying to slow down our opponent without slowing ourselves while getting the beats on. Having said all that, I do understand just how frustrating a 2/2 beatstick is when we're facing 1 mana 4/5s and 2 mana 7/8s...
Furthermore, I'm surprised that you made this change in GW of all lists as GW (with the aid of our handy dandy mana dork) has the best ability to make your golden scenario two occur.
Point is, while I totally get not being a fan of arbiter, I don't think there's a special meta reason to cut it now in particular.
4 tectonic edge
4 ghost quarter
2 sea gate wreckage
2 horizon canopy
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains
8 non creature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Selfless Spirit
2 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 blade splicer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sundering Growth
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
2 Brushland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 stirring wildwood
2 Gavony Township
1 tectonic edge
1 gemstone caverns
10 noncreature spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Collected Company
28 creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Restoration Angel
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
1 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Gemstone Caverns
8 Noncreature Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Spellskite
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sin Collector
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Worship
3 Brushland
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Temple Garden
10 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Ancient Stirrings
4 Path to exile
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Leonin Arbiter
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
1 Eternal Witness
4 Thought-knot seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Worship
1 Spellskite
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Mutavault
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 adarkar wastes
1 flooded strand
9 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 detention sphere
28 creatures
3 Spell Queller
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 eldrazi displacer
3 Reflector Mage
4 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 leonin arbiter
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
2 stony silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 ghostly prison
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 Surgical Extraction
1 kira, great glass-spinner
1 blessed alliance
4x Aether Vial
Creature:
2x Aven Mindcensor
4x Dark Confidant
4x Flickerwisp
4x Leonin Arbiter
3x Selfless Spirit
2x Spellskite
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4x Tidehollow Sculler
2x Path to Exile
2x Fatal Push
Land:
2x Caves of Koilos
4x Concealed Courtyard
1x Eiganjo Castle
4x Ghost Quarter
4x Godless Shrine
2x Plains
2x Sea Gate Wreckage
2x Swamp
2x Tectonic Edge
1x Pithing Needle
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow
2x Burrenton Forge-Tender
2x Mirran Crusader
2x Rest in Peace
2x Stony Silence
2x Zealous Persecution
2x Sunlance
Any advice is greatly appreciated!
Sea Gate Wreckage looks like a nonbo with Bob. Probably don't want to get cute with your mana, just be consistent. Probably want a couple of Shambling Vents.
Spellskite is a bit weird on the curve and it lacks aggression, but I really like selfless spirit for protection. Makes me want to try Judge's Familiar as a play on turn 2 off a vial into Bob. Seems like good protection and it's cheap for Bob flips.
I really don't like playing more than 22 lands in modern unless I'm leaning heavy control where I absolutely need to hit my land drops.
I would go -2 Sea Gate Wreckage -1 Caves of Koilos -2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar -2 Spellskite +2 shambling vents +1 selfless spirit +4 Judge's familiar.
As for sideboard,not sure Sunlance is better than path or push 3-4.
Persecution should probably be Orzhov Pontiff, at least to start testing, but Haunt seems good with the 8 self sacrifice creatures, which also makes Push great. (speaking of which, IIUC, it has been argued in this threat that running a couple of fetches is feasible, which would probably mean -2 Caves of Koilos, +2 Marsh Flats).
I never liked stony silence, so I'm gonna try fragmentize because I've just wanted to play more with that card. Also, I'm gonna mess around with leonin relic-warder
Also, seems wrong not to have some lingering souls in the board. I might go something like -2 mirran crusader +2 souls. crusader is a little underpowered in modern as both BG decks have removal for it vis a vis lightning bolt or path to exile. It's great in legacy because the predominant BG deck is BUG.
As I'm thinking about it, it seems with Bob, you are playing less 3 drops, which means you can ostensibly leave Vial on 2 for a little while longer. This, however, is actually the trick to why you feel so weird about Bob: D&T is fundamentally a deck that leverages Aether Vial to play powerful 3 drops while using its lands to punish opponents. That's how it is in Legacy, and that's how it tries to be in Modern.
The fundamental tension is that Bob pushes you towards low drops while vial pushes you to 3 drops. The deck is filled with powerful cards and powerful synergies, so it's bound to do well, but this seems like a mechanical flaw.
Edit: Shuts counterspells down, disables answers to stripmines (GQ + Leonin), disable many combos to go off, disable sorcery speed removals, getting removed allows you to deploy better threats and the list goes on... Seems pretty solid, don't you think?
This may be true, but I don't play online. Most of my metagame sees Fatal Push for what it is: a slight upgrade to certain removal spells, but it doesn't change the card type distribution in any already-playable archetype. In other words, Fatal Push may be making fetchlands more attractive in other metagames, but not mine; nobody in my metagame is tweaking their already-tuned manabase to make room for Fatal Push.
That third scenario happens all the time, especially late in the game. If the game has gone longer than four turns, Arbiter loses almost all of its value. Valakut decks just pay 2 and then Scapeshift anyway. Chord decks are filled with dorks, so they just Convoke their way through it. It's rare that I play against a Gifts deck, but if your Arbiter is still alive then they've played their removal wrong.
On the curve, Arbiter is better, but most decks that care about it simply burn it and keep going. I can't tell you how often this sequence happens to me against Burn:
My T1: Land, Vial
Opp T1: Fetch, Shock, Goblin Guide, swing for 2
My T2: Vial at 1, Land, Arbiter
Opp T2: Shock, Searing Blaze, swing for 2 with Guide
Or, if I'm on the draw, the Burn player gets two full turns to crack their fetchlands before I can even play the Arbiter. A good burn player willsequence his or her land drops properly, and he or she won't use flexible removal until the end of the game.
This is fair, but Arbiter is usually worse at buying me time because my opponent can either find a removal spell or find two more lands. I haven't cut my search taxes entirely; I'm just running Aven Mindcensor instead.
I think my experiences with Arbiter are much more similar to Catmix's experiences than they are to yours; Arbiter can be great, but it's a tempo-like disruption rather than a control element. If I'm going to be the control deck in a given matchup, I'd rather be playing cards that my opponent must deal with.
This is a fair point, although you already know how I feel about the Hierarch-fueled land destruction play; even running four copies of Hierarch, Arbiter, and Ghost Quarter, you only have a ~4% chance of having a T2 land destruction play, and that's before any interaction from your opponent (like discard or removal). Plus, I don't actually run four copies of Hierarch, so with my three copies instead, the likelihood of that play drops down to just over 3%.
All that said, I still almost never go for the T2 land destruction play. It seems good in a vacuum, but going for it has actually lost me a lot of games. I either lose because my opponent removes the Arbiter in response or I lose because my opponent is playing some midrange deck with more land drops than me, and I can't recover from cracking my own Ghost Quarter that early in a game. I think there's a sweet spot for cracking Ghost Quarters in every matchup, and it always occurs around T3-5 anyway, which is more than enough time to play a Mindcensor instead of an Arbiter.
I can agree with this, although I think Arbiter went from mediocre before to slightly-less-mediocre now.
I'd much rather be running Voice of Resurgence, which is really hard to remove for value. When someone removes your Arbiter with Fatal Push, he or she has gained one mana worth of tempo on you. When someone removes my Voice of Resurgence with Fatal Push, he or she has one mana of tempo to deal with the elemental token, and if that person opts to remove it, I've gained card advantage. Voice of Resurgence is like Thalia and and Lingering Souls in that respect: it's an unconditional way of punishing your opponent for running targeted removal. And consequently, it's winning me more games than Arbiter because it's much better on its own.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
I fear this deck will get picked on by aggro decks. Maybe find room for finks/splicer/serraavenger/brimaz