Hey gang, it has been a while since I posted anything. I have spent a couple weeks catching up and I am finally there. I have been having fun and having some luck with E & T lately.
Darkhelmet: For Dredge, I side in the RIPs, the Cages and the Celestial Purge. I side out the Vials and 2 Arbiters. First strike is very relevant in this MU and THC is especially brutal. With this particular build I try to clog up the ground, use Displacer effectively, and kill through the air.
Anyone ever try out whirlir rogue in a UW flicker build? Could be good with Geist
Wait. Back up.
The reason that Whirler Rogue is good is because you get 4 power distributed across 3 bodies for 4 mana. It's almost like a mini Lingering Souls. The purpose of Whirler Rogue is to allow you to go wide in a hurry, not to make your guys unblockable. If you want to pair Whirler Rogue with something, it should be Eldrazi Displacer, Flickerwisp, or Restoration Angel, not Geist of Saint Traft.
It's not that using Whirler Rogue to make something unblockable is inherently bad; it's just that you're literally tying up two other cards (usually two thopters) to ensure that something of yours gets through. Sure, it makes certain other cards better (like extra Vials and equipmentcards), but again, that's just not its primary purpose.
WU has access to a lot of tempo elements: Reflector Mage, Echoing Truth, Vapor Snag, etc. In a vacuum, Whirler Rogue is probably out-competed by at least one of those cards. Arguably even something like Detention Sphere does this job better. Of course, it's going to depend on your matchup, but there are reasons that people run the aforementioned cards before they run something like Whirler Rogue.
If you need a reliable way to push a creature through, I think you're probably better off with something like Rogue's Passage. It's more mana-intensive than Whirler Rogue, but it also can't be removed easily and it doesn't take up a slot of one of your threats. I'm afraid to even mention something like Crafty Pathmage for fear that you'll seriously think I'm endorsing it.
Again, the reason to play Whirler Rogue is that it allows you to go wide. Compare it to Pia and Kiran Nalaar, which sees play in the WR version of this deck. Sure, the removal nice (and it does come in handy), but the main purpose of the card is to put a lot of bodies down at once and flicker it until you win.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
Anyone ever try out whirlir rogue in a UW flicker build? Could be good with Geist
Wait. Back up.
The reason that Whirler Rogue is good is because you get 4 power distributed across 3 bodies for 4 mana. It's almost like a mini Lingering Souls. The purpose of Whirler Rogue is to allow you to go wide in a hurry, not to make your guys unblockable. If you want to pair Whirler Rogue with something, it should be Eldrazi Displacer, Flickerwisp, or Restoration Angel, not Geist of Saint Traft.
It's not that using Whirler Rogue to make something unblockable is inherently bad; it's just that you're literally tying up two other cards (usually two thopters) to ensure that something of yours gets through. Sure, it makes certain other cards better (like extra Vials and equipmentcards), but again, that's just not its primary purpose.
WU has access to a lot of tempo elements: Reflector Mage, Echoing Truth, Vapor Snag, etc. In a vacuum, Whirler Rogue is probably out-competed by at least one of those cards. Arguably even something like Detention Sphere does this job better. Of course, it's going to depend on your matchup, but there are reasons that people run the aforementioned cards before they run something like Whirler Rogue.
If you need a reliable way to push a creature through, I think you're probably better off with something like Rogue's Passage. It's more mana-intensive than Whirler Rogue, but it also can't be removed easily and it doesn't take up a slot of one of your threats. I'm afraid to even mention something like Crafty Pathmage for fear that you'll seriously think I'm endorsing it.
Again, the reason to play Whirler Rogue is that it allows you to go wide. Compare it to Pia and Kiran Nalaar, which sees play in the WR version of this deck. Sure, the removal nice (and it does come in handy), but the main purpose of the card is to put a lot of bodies down at once and flicker it until you win.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
If not, that's quite alright. That's what we're here to talk about it. Because the thing is, no two sideboards like exactly the same. I always rant about how we're a metadeck. That means we attack the most played (top tier) decks in the format. Now we try to have decent matchups against every deck either through the main deck or sideboard (like any competitive deck). I'm a strong believer in looking at every card in your deck and thinking about what MUs the card shines in. If it's not enough MUs, then you have to strongly considering cutting the card. There are some cards like spellskite that might go MD or SB depending on your list. Having cards like these MD means that you free up room in your SB. These kinds of cards should be put main deck if they're good against a lot of decks and would otherwise come in from your board a lot. However, sometimes mirran crusader might just go main deck because you expect to see a lot of GBx decks at your next tournament. If that's the case and you end up being correct, then it's likely that your gamble will pay off, but it is a risk because there's no real way to be completely confident in your assumptions. Making decisions like these can really help your chances against the field. A great place to start is looking at different decks percentages in meta. Perhaps your just sick of losing game 1 to Jund. It's not that unreasonable to include some MD mirran crusaders if that's the case since he's still a 2/2 double strike even if your opponent isn't on GBx. But be careful not to dilute your gameplan or overdo it with cards that are great in the board, but simply wouldn't be worth it in other MUs.
But some decks are just hard to beat game one with somethings that just run over you. These kind of decks demand silver bullets. Now you can just jam 4 of both of those cards in your board, but then other MUS might become much harder. That's why it can be wise to do one of two things:
1. you can put less powerful but more well versatile cards. The classic example of burrenton forge-tender vs kor firewalker comes to mind.
2. Make your mainboard better against these kinds of decks so you don't need 4 ofs in your board. Perhaps you're running BW and you have 2 basic swamp slots. It might be wise to take one out and put in a bojuka bog. Additionally, you can put cards that are pretty good well rounded answers in your deck. For instance, it turns out blade splicer can help you fight off those prized amalgams. I alluded to this earlier with spellskite as that card has a lot of game against a lot of decks. It's difficult to find something else that can be that good against burn, jund, and infect all at the same time. Because otherwise you may find yourself going overboard for certain matchups and sacrificing your game for others. You might beat dredge every time if you had 4 rips, but maybe you had to take out all those burn slots and burn is beating you silly. If you feel confident enough for a matchup that you don't think you need anything for it, then that's a good realization, but I will warn you to think long and hard about this and test it to make sure that you can still beat your opponent even after they board in cardsmeanttobeat you and you just don't have anything to bring in for them. This is an exaggerated version of how your SB works though. Every time you cut one card for another you change how you fight against certain decks and probably, consequentially, your win percentages.
A place that I like to start it is to have ~3 slots that you can bring in against any deck that you feel you are likely to run into.
Let's try something like this:
3 anti graveyard slots
3 anti burn slots,
3 anti artifact/enchantment slots (I'm really talking about affinity here),
3 anti combo slots,
3 anti control (the grindy matches) slots,
and some good catch alls or +1s for the harder MUs.
The catch all slots might be something like engineered explosives, ratchet bomb, or surgical extraction. I really like a lot of these kind of slots because they hit multiple matchups and they really are the "maybe not the best card per deck, but hits a lot of decks" kind of slots and this whole mentality is something I live by and consequentially complicates how we make our sideboards since they can help fill other slots. For instance, EE can hit an aggro deck decently hard, can hit affinity, and tokens. Surgical might hit a tron land, a combo piece, or a control deck trying to flash something back with snapcaster mage, or hit those prized amalgams. You can also put stuff here that are just the acknowledgement of brew decks. It's why I like hibernation and echoing truth when I play WU.
* For anti burn, the only real slot I'd recommend moving to the main is spellskite. It turns out we can have decent game against them with our manadenial. Your real options otherwise include burrenton forge-tender and kor firewalker. The former along with sun lance and mark of asylum win the *hit multiple decks* award while firewalker really is the silver bullet here.
* For aggro, we have ghostly prison, worship, sunlance, and dismember among others. A lot of these slots can be pretty flexible. For instance, catmix feels good enough with his BW list to run ghostly as his anti affinity slot too because his main has enough tools where he feels comfortable without stony silence. Aggro is a broad thing so it's hard to have a silver bullet, but lots of these cards can hit multiple decks. A card to try main if you're on BW might be orzhov pontiff or wasteland strangler. For WU reflector mage can be surprisingly good. Otherwise you're stuck with blade splicer or kitchen finks.
NOTE: As mentioned before, engineered explosives and ratchet bomb can come in. A good to card an all-in creature you couldn't otherwise kill can also be blessed alliance.
* For your grindy matches, it can really depend. The main two kinds of decks I'll focus on here are RUx and GBx. As mentioned burrenton forge-tender and mark of asylum can both be good if you're worried about your creatures being burned dead. mirran crusader can be good here. Also some GY hate may find its way here. If you want to keep stuff in your hand you might consider leyline of sanctity or you can try loxodon smiter if you're in GW. Some popular options otherwise are swords of X/Y or walkersas both of these can provide a lot of value. Some main deck cards to consider here are ways to get you CA. I don't leave home without at least 2 horizon canopy (bonus points for EE!). You can also give sea gate wreckage a shot. UW gets moorland haunt. GW gets gavony township. BW gets vault of the archangel. RW gets slayers' stronghold. All of these kinds of lands have unique pros, but tend to keep you in the game longer and can turn otherwise dead or useless creatures into something more. manlands also help make your topdecks better as they still produce mana early on, but can help you out later and turn into a threat. Essentially, you want value cards here (Some of you might be hurt if I didn't include lingering souls here). I'd also like to note that celestial purge tends to hit most of these decks troublesomepermanents. Also, cards that are hard to kill/ bring lots of value are worth considering putting in your deck if these guys are giving you trouble. Some good value cards might include courser of kruphix and collected company in GW, Pia and Kiran Nalaar in RW, and Ephara, God of the Polis in UW.
* For your GY decks, it's pretty straightforward. Our options are: rest in peace, relic of progenitus, and surgical extraction. Rip is obviously the strongest of these and I'm fairly well convinced that most versions of our deck out to run at least 2 somewhere unless you have something real going on with your yard. If so you might try relic. Otherwise, I'd recommend rip. It just shuts down something like dredge so well and even comes in against something like Jund and junk. That's too many decks to ignore. Surgical is versatile as I mentioned before. Some main deck cards you could try are bojuka bog (in BW), scavenging ooze (in GW), or Jötun Grunt. Relic has also seen play in some of our lists and its cantrip can be quite useful. Plus it fuels those wasteland stranglers if that's your prerogative.
* For affinity our most common choices are stony silence and kataki, war's wage. Both of these do a pretty good job. Stony hits harder, but kataki has legs. It depends what you need. BW probably has the most game preboard here since they have access to extraremoval. Some cards to note here are lingering souls (it can block everything they have and usually profitably so), phyrexian revoker (shutting down the right piece of their deck can be brutal), and even fiend hunter. Some more well rounded but perhaps not strong enough removal pieces here might be disenchant or sundering growth. These both hit enchantments too though. That's worth considering if you're having trouble with those.
NOTE: As mentioned before, engineered explosives and ratchet bomb can come in.
* Combo decks come in a lot of shapes and sizes. Depending on how you cut it, tron and valakut decks might both be combo. Infect might be too. Oh and don't forget about ad nauseam or storm. How could I forget about Lantern? Well that's a heck of a list to all be lumped together and that's probably not even all of them... You might want your paths real bad, but then again you might not. What do they have in common? Well, again, we want spellskite and it turns out Thalia, guardian of thraben hits em all decently well. That anddiscard. But you might want to try different 1 drops to deal with them accordingly. Icatian Javelineers might suit your fancy since it shoots their dorks before they go off. Or perhaps Dryad Militant is needed to exile their spells. Then again judge's familiar could keep your hatepiece alive long enough to matter. Or different still, you might not want a 1 drop. Since it's so broad, this category kind of ends up being lumped with the miscellaneous one, but if you're seeing a lot of these decks, you probably want those main deck skites, 4 thalias (or other Thalia might help too!), and if you're feeling adventurous, you could try vryn wingmare to double up on your taxes, or eidolon of rhetoric if you're having a real hard time, or perhaps magus of the moon if you're on RW.
As seen above, I once counted decks like valakut and tron as combo decks and while I don't think that's wrong, I've decided to add a new section: Big Mana Decks.
Here, I will be including Tron (all splashes), Eldrazi Tron, Valakut (both primeval titanthrough the breach and scapeshift variants), and Bant Eldrazi.
The number one best maindeck card I've found to be here is Thalia, heretic cathar. The earlier she comes down, the better. Cards like Leonin arbiter and or thalia, guardian of thraben can do some serious work here, depending on which deck you're facing, but Big Thalia seems to do her work very well across the board (yes amulet of vigor and or removal can get around her, but that's about it). She enables us to beat face while our opponents plays are significantly slowed. All of these decks run lots of nonbasiclands and try to cheat out their unfaircards with it when you're not ready. Even an early Thought-knot seer can be back-breaking. We should be a more prepared deck to deal with these at their root (at their mana) since we have lots of mana denial tactics in our deck, but it's not always that easy. That's why some people will push these parts of their decks by running cards like MD Big Thalia or even renegade rallier in GW to reoccur more LD. WU gets some interesting SB options like ceremonious rejection which hits about half of the above mentioned big mana decks hard. WR gets the obvious choice of magus of the moon because blood mooning these decks can often prove to just end the game. BW gets hand disruption and the possible unfair permanent removal in the form of the WOMBO-COMBO. All of these decks can bring in cards like crucible of worlds if they feel they have enough time for it to work, or the possible gotcha play with surgical extraction + valakut or atronpiece. Some other options, depending on which deck you're facing might be stony silence (to shut off those early expedition maps or even those later batterskulls) or Worship which prevents Bant Eldrazi from winning period (they often have no way around it outside of TKSing it out of your hand).
There are also a lot of plays which just have to be done to win against these decks which might not be obvious when one first puts their hands on the deck. I'm talking about stuff like flickerwisping away a tron piece at the end of your turn, or aggressively taking bant eldrazi off a color (or colorless!), or how Thalia stops tron from player karn on T3 even if they have natural tron. BASIC CHECK PEOPLE OFTEN (many decks only run three or so basics and some run less!).
Finally, one thing to look at is, how do these decks beat us when we stop them from getting their unfair mana so quickly? Well, they do what any reasonable deck in that position would do, they try to sweepourboard. For these reasons, selfless spirit can actually be a bit of a sleeper here.
I'd like to note that it can be a bit difficult to define certain decks as well as certain cards as being in one category or the other. I'm aware there's a lot of overlap here in the sense that say lantern only really beats you with one card even though it does grind you ought. Equally, burn and affinity are both aggro decks, but they earned their own slots since siding for one or the other can be quite different than it might be for say zoo. Don't be afraid to correct me if you disagree with my assessment. We can give more decks their own categories if people would like to add/ correct information they think is missing/ wrong here.
All in all, I'd say, try to make your mainboard hate out those top tier decks without diluting your deck. Make sure you have enough hate slots for the decks that give you trouble, but try not to overdo it! Yes dredge and affinity are the boogeymen out there in the night, but we CAN beat them with a littlehelp from our friends. It's all about the balance.
I hope this write up was helpful! As always, if you guys have any questions, comments, or anything, feel free to hit me up. Get out there and get taxing!
EDIT: formatting is haaard
EDIT #2: I've added new decks to better reflect the current meta.
I'm still having great luck with this mono-white list - it's been very consistent. Tron is a breeze with all the land hate, and Selfless Spirits to prevent board wipes from o-stone or clasm.
I like your list mtthwds. I'm running something pretty similar atm. Personally I like some Mirran Crusader in the MD over Blade Splicer.
In the sb I'm playing one Elspeth for my grindy matchups and it's fantastic. I'm sonsidering the second (or a Gideon). This would replace the Mirran Crusader in your sb. Even against Jund or Abzan I prefer having Elspeth over Mirran Crusader as she doesn't die to bolt/path and has more inevitability. Additionally she's cold to IoK. And Elspeth also shines against control like grixis or uwr, while Mirran Crusader doesn't as much. So I think she is more powerful and more flexibel (just not a creature).
I mostly play mtgo and affinity is not played too much atm. So I like having ghostly prisons over stony for the flexibility. As you stated your tron matchup is already good enough so we don't need help for them. But this could be completely different in your meta.
I can't say anything about Revoker/needle as I'm playing neither.
I'm still having great luck with this mono-white list - it's been very consistent. Tron is a breeze with all the land hate, and Selfless Spirits to prevent board wipes from o-stone or clasm.
Your shell looks pretty similar to mine, and I agree, it is very consistent. As far as sideboard options go, I just don't think Pithing Needle effects are all that well positioned right now. I prefer Grafdigger's Cage or Ghostly Prison to ward off both Elves and Dredge (Cage also puts in work vs. control). The Stony vs. Kataki debate is a bit more nuanced, but I still prefer Stony because of how easy Kataki is to kill (dies to Galvanic Blast, Ghirapur Æther Grid, and Whipflare).
@Stabil0: I like your thought process. I'll try replacing the Revokers in the side with an Elspeth and a Gideon. I like the splicers main-deck because they've been so good in so many matches. I've played with 0-of splicer and just didn't like the way the deck felt in their absence.
@rothgar13: I glanced at your tappedout Death and Taxes list, and yes - very similar. I cut all my one-drop creatures for an extra land and 3 Restoration Angel's. I found that most of the time, the one-drops were off-tempo or didn't do anything. I'd definitely suggest trying out 2-3 Restoration Angel's - they've been great.
I think it's time to speak about the Gearhulk again. So guys, how your tests are going? Where are your success stories? Why do we see ZERO deck with a Gearhulk in main at http://mtgtop8.com/ and only one deck which plays the C-Hulk in a SB?
I think it's time to speak about the Gearhulk again. So guys, how your tests are going? Where are your success stories? Why do we see ZERO deck with a Gearhulk in main at http://mtgtop8.com/ and only one deck which plays the C-Hulk in a SB?
Awesome card, they say. Much powar, they say.
[/sarcasm]
I tested it a bit and it feels like a card that's the exact opposite of win more. By that I mean, it's only good when you're really behind. I'd rather just side in other cards that stop me from being that far behind. 5 mana is too much for me unless maybe in GW, but I'd rather just play Coco through thalia at that point.
What do you guys think of adding 1-2 Elder deep fiends to an UW Eldrazi version of the deck? It would work as a 4 drop of one of our ETB creatures such as Reflector mage or Blade splicer, it could be a powerful finisher that the deck needs! Give me your thoughts!
I have done absolutely no testing with it, but I imagine your only 4 drop is TKS and I'd rather not give them a card unless I'll win right then. It's probably just too expensive. That's all theory, but I'd sooner test drowner of hope (sorry I'd do card descriptions, but I'm on my phone) and drowner is in all likelyhood too expensive too.
I don't think it will be too expensive, however, sacrificing a creature will be a steep price, especially when we don't get value from sacrificing the creature. The problem with sacrificing 3 drops is that you are losing your tempo investment from casting that creature, and our 3 drops are usually creatures we want to keep around. I could see it being playable if we slot in creatures like eldrazi skyspawner or matter reshaper, but you have to ask yourself if those creatures are good enough.
It could turn out that all of those cards together are good enough, but I'm skeptical. I'd say if you are going to add him, he probably needs to be built around. An interesting idea is pairing him with mulldrifter, but that could be quite taxing on the manabase as it would require you to have 3 blue sources in play.
I think it's time to speak about the Gearhulk again. So guys, how your tests are going? Where are your success stories? Why do we see ZERO deck with a Gearhulk in main at http://mtgtop8.com/ and only one deck which plays the C-Hulk in a SB?
Awesome card, they say. Much powar, they say.
[/sarcasm]
First of all, posts for the explicit purpose of trolling are frowned upon. Second, I can't believe you actually linked to the Wikipedia article about the number zero. And third, I don't remember anyone in this thread trying to sell Cataclysmic Gearhulk as a maindeckable card with enormous upside. The card is useful in certain matchups when your opponents want to go much wider than you can, which actually does shore up some of D&T's weaknesses to aggro.
I tested it a bit and it feels like a card that's the exact opposite of win more. By that I mean, it's only good when you're really behind. I'd rather just side in other cards that stop me from being that far behind. 5 mana is too much for me unless maybe in GW, but I'd rather just play Coco through thalia at that point.
I haven't had the opportunity to test it yet, but I want to go on record as having agreed with everything you just said.
I still think there's potential for a WG Eldrich Evolution toolbox and taxes deck, which would definitely want Cataclysmic Gearhulk as a maindeck answer to Affinity, Elves, Zoo, etc. But that's still a pretty atypical idea for how to build WG. CoCo just seems better most of the time.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
I think it's time to speak about the Gearhulk again. So guys, how your tests are going? Where are your success stories? Why do we see ZERO deck with a Gearhulk in main at http://mtgtop8.com/ and only one deck which plays the C-Hulk in a SB?
Awesome card, they say. Much powar, they say.
[/sarcasm]
Go back a few pages and give the video I posted a watch, specifically game 3. I was able to cast a gearhulk vs. and elves opponent, most people may have missed the video though since the new page rolled over pretty quickly. My opponent would have still won through it, so I'm not sure what other sideboard card would have saved me in its place.
Also I don't think anyone ever suggested playing gearhulks in the main deck.
Also I'm still waiting for an actual response from you to our last discussion on this topic.
A while ago, I typed up a WR Card Choice list. That list is obviously out of date now, but it's under construction and being developed into a mini-primer similar to the WU one.
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker though, is significantly less good. Sometimes you get to combo out with Restoration Angel, but most of the time Kiki-Jiki is just an underwhelming, hard-to-cast 5-drop.
Can also play bolt in the board instead of Sunlance.
This is Modern. If you're playing red in a non-combo archetype and Lightning Bolt isn't in your maindeck, then you're doing it wrong. Run as many copies of Lightning Bolt as you can comfortably jam. (If at any time your maindeck Lightning Bolt count drops below 3, reevaluate your other 58 cards and find room for at least one more Bolt. There's no way that your other 58 cards are better than your 3rd Lightning Bolt.)
Eidolon of great revels would also be interesting.
Eidolon of the Great Revel has been discussed, but usually doesn't make a final cut. Sure, we can play around it using an Æther Vial, but almost everything that we cast costs 3 mana or less. It's a high variance card in our deck, which means that it's usually not good.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Fetid Heath
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Godless Shrine
3 Plains
2 Shambling Vent
1 Swamp
Creatures
4 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Thought-Knot Seer
4 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Wasteland Strangler
3 Aether Vial
1 Relic of Progenitus
Spells
4 Path to Exile
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Celestial Purge
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Kor Firewalker
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Thoughtseize
2 Zealous Persecution
Darkhelmet: For Dredge, I side in the RIPs, the Cages and the Celestial Purge. I side out the Vials and 2 Arbiters. First strike is very relevant in this MU and THC is especially brutal. With this particular build I try to clog up the ground, use Displacer effectively, and kill through the air.
4 tectonic edge
4 ghost quarter
2 sea gate wreckage
2 horizon canopy
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains
8 non creature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Selfless Spirit
2 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 blade splicer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sundering Growth
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
2 Brushland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 stirring wildwood
2 Gavony Township
1 tectonic edge
1 gemstone caverns
10 noncreature spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Collected Company
28 creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Restoration Angel
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
1 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Gemstone Caverns
8 Noncreature Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Spellskite
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sin Collector
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Worship
3 Brushland
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Temple Garden
10 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Ancient Stirrings
4 Path to exile
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Leonin Arbiter
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
1 Eternal Witness
4 Thought-knot seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Worship
1 Spellskite
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Mutavault
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 adarkar wastes
1 flooded strand
9 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 detention sphere
28 creatures
3 Spell Queller
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 eldrazi displacer
3 Reflector Mage
4 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 leonin arbiter
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
2 stony silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 ghostly prison
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 Surgical Extraction
1 kira, great glass-spinner
1 blessed alliance
The reason that Whirler Rogue is good is because you get 4 power distributed across 3 bodies for 4 mana. It's almost like a mini Lingering Souls. The purpose of Whirler Rogue is to allow you to go wide in a hurry, not to make your guys unblockable. If you want to pair Whirler Rogue with something, it should be Eldrazi Displacer, Flickerwisp, or Restoration Angel, not Geist of Saint Traft.
It's not that using Whirler Rogue to make something unblockable is inherently bad; it's just that you're literally tying up two other cards (usually two thopters) to ensure that something of yours gets through. Sure, it makes certain other cards better (like extra Vials and equipment cards), but again, that's just not its primary purpose.
WU has access to a lot of tempo elements: Reflector Mage, Echoing Truth, Vapor Snag, etc. In a vacuum, Whirler Rogue is probably out-competed by at least one of those cards. Arguably even something like Detention Sphere does this job better. Of course, it's going to depend on your matchup, but there are reasons that people run the aforementioned cards before they run something like Whirler Rogue.
If you need a reliable way to push a creature through, I think you're probably better off with something like Rogue's Passage. It's more mana-intensive than Whirler Rogue, but it also can't be removed easily and it doesn't take up a slot of one of your threats. I'm afraid to even mention something like Crafty Pathmage for fear that you'll seriously think I'm endorsing it.
Again, the reason to play Whirler Rogue is that it allows you to go wide. Compare it to Pia and Kiran Nalaar, which sees play in the WR version of this deck. Sure, the removal nice (and it does come in handy), but the main purpose of the card is to put a lot of bodies down at once and flicker it until you win.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
Also Thassa, god of the sea if you really want unblockable.
4 tectonic edge
4 ghost quarter
2 sea gate wreckage
2 horizon canopy
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains
8 non creature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Selfless Spirit
2 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 blade splicer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sundering Growth
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
2 Brushland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 stirring wildwood
2 Gavony Township
1 tectonic edge
1 gemstone caverns
10 noncreature spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Collected Company
28 creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Restoration Angel
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
1 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Gemstone Caverns
8 Noncreature Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Spellskite
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sin Collector
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Worship
3 Brushland
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Temple Garden
10 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Ancient Stirrings
4 Path to exile
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Leonin Arbiter
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
1 Eternal Witness
4 Thought-knot seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Worship
1 Spellskite
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Mutavault
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 adarkar wastes
1 flooded strand
9 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 detention sphere
28 creatures
3 Spell Queller
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 eldrazi displacer
3 Reflector Mage
4 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 leonin arbiter
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
2 stony silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 ghostly prison
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 Surgical Extraction
1 kira, great glass-spinner
1 blessed alliance
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
How do I sideboard against all these decks? Everyone's been saying D&T is a metadeck, but what does that mean?
Lately we've seen the rise of and .
Yet we still have to fight all these other decks. Feeling overwhelmed?
Perhaps.
Perhaps, you think you can manage it?
If not, that's quite alright. That's what we're here to talk about it. Because the thing is, no two sideboards like exactly the same. I always rant about how we're a metadeck. That means we attack the most played (top tier) decks in the format. Now we try to have decent matchups against every deck either through the main deck or sideboard (like any competitive deck). I'm a strong believer in looking at every card in your deck and thinking about what MUs the card shines in. If it's not enough MUs, then you have to strongly considering cutting the card. There are some cards like spellskite that might go MD or SB depending on your list. Having cards like these MD means that you free up room in your SB. These kinds of cards should be put main deck if they're good against a lot of decks and would otherwise come in from your board a lot. However, sometimes mirran crusader might just go main deck because you expect to see a lot of GBx decks at your next tournament. If that's the case and you end up being correct, then it's likely that your gamble will pay off, but it is a risk because there's no real way to be completely confident in your assumptions. Making decisions like these can really help your chances against the field. A great place to start is looking at different decks percentages in meta. Perhaps your just sick of losing game 1 to Jund. It's not that unreasonable to include some MD mirran crusaders if that's the case since he's still a 2/2 double strike even if your opponent isn't on GBx. But be careful not to dilute your gameplan or overdo it with cards that are great in the board, but simply wouldn't be worth it in other MUs.
But some decks are just hard to beat game one with some things that just run over you. These kind of decks demand silver bullets. Now you can just jam 4 of both of those cards in your board, but then other MUS might become much harder. That's why it can be wise to do one of two things:
1. you can put less powerful but more well versatile cards. The classic example of burrenton forge-tender vs kor firewalker comes to mind.
2. Make your mainboard better against these kinds of decks so you don't need 4 ofs in your board. Perhaps you're running BW and you have 2 basic swamp slots. It might be wise to take one out and put in a bojuka bog. Additionally, you can put cards that are pretty good well rounded answers in your deck. For instance, it turns out blade splicer can help you fight off those prized amalgams. I alluded to this earlier with spellskite as that card has a lot of game against a lot of decks. It's difficult to find something else that can be that good against burn, jund, and infect all at the same time. Because otherwise you may find yourself going overboard for certain matchups and sacrificing your game for others. You might beat dredge every time if you had 4 rips, but maybe you had to take out all those burn slots and burn is beating you silly. If you feel confident enough for a matchup that you don't think you need anything for it, then that's a good realization, but I will warn you to think long and hard about this and test it to make sure that you can still beat your opponent even after they board in cards meant to beat you and you just don't have anything to bring in for them. This is an exaggerated version of how your SB works though. Every time you cut one card for another you change how you fight against certain decks and probably, consequentially, your win percentages.
A place that I like to start it is to have ~3 slots that you can bring in against any deck that you feel you are likely to run into.
Let's try something like this:
3 anti graveyard slots
3 anti burn slots,
3 anti artifact/enchantment slots (I'm really talking about affinity here),
3 anti combo slots,
3 anti control (the grindy matches) slots,
and some good catch alls or +1s for the harder MUs.
The catch all slots might be something like engineered explosives, ratchet bomb, or surgical extraction. I really like a lot of these kind of slots because they hit multiple matchups and they really are the "maybe not the best card per deck, but hits a lot of decks" kind of slots and this whole mentality is something I live by and consequentially complicates how we make our sideboards since they can help fill other slots. For instance, EE can hit an aggro deck decently hard, can hit affinity, and tokens. Surgical might hit a tron land, a combo piece, or a control deck trying to flash something back with snapcaster mage, or hit those prized amalgams. You can also put stuff here that are just the acknowledgement of brew decks. It's why I like hibernation and echoing truth when I play WU.
* For anti burn, the only real slot I'd recommend moving to the main is spellskite. It turns out we can have decent game against them with our mana denial. Your real options otherwise include burrenton forge-tender and kor firewalker. The former along with sun lance and mark of asylum win the *hit multiple decks* award while firewalker really is the silver bullet here.
* For aggro, we have ghostly prison, worship, sunlance, and dismember among others. A lot of these slots can be pretty flexible. For instance, catmix feels good enough with his BW list to run ghostly as his anti affinity slot too because his main has enough tools where he feels comfortable without stony silence. Aggro is a broad thing so it's hard to have a silver bullet, but lots of these cards can hit multiple decks. A card to try main if you're on BW might be orzhov pontiff or wasteland strangler. For WU reflector mage can be surprisingly good. Otherwise you're stuck with blade splicer or kitchen finks.
NOTE: As mentioned before, engineered explosives and ratchet bomb can come in. A good to card an all-in creature you couldn't otherwise kill can also be blessed alliance.
* For your grindy matches, it can really depend. The main two kinds of decks I'll focus on here are RUx and GBx. As mentioned burrenton forge-tender and mark of asylum can both be good if you're worried about your creatures being burned dead. mirran crusader can be good here. Also some GY hate may find its way here. If you want to keep stuff in your hand you might consider leyline of sanctity or you can try loxodon smiter if you're in GW. Some popular options otherwise are swords of X/Y or walkers as both of these can provide a lot of value. Some main deck cards to consider here are ways to get you CA. I don't leave home without at least 2 horizon canopy (bonus points for EE!). You can also give sea gate wreckage a shot. UW gets moorland haunt. GW gets gavony township. BW gets vault of the archangel. RW gets slayers' stronghold. All of these kinds of lands have unique pros, but tend to keep you in the game longer and can turn otherwise dead or useless creatures into something more. manlands also help make your topdecks better as they still produce mana early on, but can help you out later and turn into a threat. Essentially, you want value cards here (Some of you might be hurt if I didn't include lingering souls here). I'd also like to note that celestial purge tends to hit most of these decks troublesome permanents. Also, cards that are hard to kill/ bring lots of value are worth considering putting in your deck if these guys are giving you trouble. Some good value cards might include courser of kruphix and collected company in GW, Pia and Kiran Nalaar in RW, and Ephara, God of the Polis in UW.
* For your GY decks, it's pretty straightforward. Our options are: rest in peace, relic of progenitus, and surgical extraction. Rip is obviously the strongest of these and I'm fairly well convinced that most versions of our deck out to run at least 2 somewhere unless you have something real going on with your yard. If so you might try relic. Otherwise, I'd recommend rip. It just shuts down something like dredge so well and even comes in against something like Jund and junk. That's too many decks to ignore. Surgical is versatile as I mentioned before. Some main deck cards you could try are bojuka bog (in BW), scavenging ooze (in GW), or Jötun Grunt. Relic has also seen play in some of our lists and its cantrip can be quite useful. Plus it fuels those wasteland stranglers if that's your prerogative.
* For affinity our most common choices are stony silence and kataki, war's wage. Both of these do a pretty good job. Stony hits harder, but kataki has legs. It depends what you need. BW probably has the most game preboard here since they have access to extra removal. Some cards to note here are lingering souls (it can block everything they have and usually profitably so), phyrexian revoker (shutting down the right piece of their deck can be brutal), and even fiend hunter. Some more well rounded but perhaps not strong enough removal pieces here might be disenchant or sundering growth. These both hit enchantments too though. That's worth considering if you're having trouble with those.
NOTE: As mentioned before, engineered explosives and ratchet bomb can come in.
* Combo decks come in a lot of shapes and sizes. Depending on how you cut it, tron and valakut decks might both be combo. Infect might be too. Oh and don't forget about ad nauseam or storm. How could I forget about Lantern? Well that's a heck of a list to all be lumped together and that's probably not even all of them... You might want your paths real bad, but then again you might not. What do they have in common? Well, again, we want spellskite and it turns out Thalia, guardian of thraben hits em all decently well. That and discard. But you might want to try different 1 drops to deal with them accordingly. Icatian Javelineers might suit your fancy since it shoots their dorks before they go off. Or perhaps Dryad Militant is needed to exile their spells. Then again judge's familiar could keep your hate piece alive long enough to matter. Or different still, you might not want a 1 drop. Since it's so broad, this category kind of ends up being lumped with the miscellaneous one, but if you're seeing a lot of these decks, you probably want those main deck skites, 4 thalias (or other Thalia might help too!), and if you're feeling adventurous, you could try vryn wingmare to double up on your taxes, or eidolon of rhetoric if you're having a real hard time, or perhaps magus of the moon if you're on RW.
As seen above, I once counted decks like valakut and tron as combo decks and while I don't think that's wrong, I've decided to add a new section:
Big Mana Decks.
Here, I will be including Tron (all splashes), Eldrazi Tron, Valakut (both primeval titan through the breach and scapeshift variants), and Bant Eldrazi.
The number one best maindeck card I've found to be here is Thalia, heretic cathar. The earlier she comes down, the better. Cards like Leonin arbiter and or thalia, guardian of thraben can do some serious work here, depending on which deck you're facing, but Big Thalia seems to do her work very well across the board (yes amulet of vigor and or removal can get around her, but that's about it). She enables us to beat face while our opponents plays are significantly slowed. All of these decks run lots of nonbasic lands and try to cheat out their unfair cards with it when you're not ready. Even an early Thought-knot seer can be back-breaking. We should be a more prepared deck to deal with these at their root (at their mana) since we have lots of mana denial tactics in our deck, but it's not always that easy. That's why some people will push these parts of their decks by running cards like MD Big Thalia or even renegade rallier in GW to reoccur more LD. WU gets some interesting SB options like ceremonious rejection which hits about half of the above mentioned big mana decks hard. WR gets the obvious choice of magus of the moon because blood mooning these decks can often prove to just end the game. BW gets hand disruption and the possible unfair permanent removal in the form of the WOMBO-COMBO. All of these decks can bring in cards like crucible of worlds if they feel they have enough time for it to work, or the possible gotcha play with surgical extraction + valakut or a tron piece. Some other options, depending on which deck you're facing might be stony silence (to shut off those early expedition maps or even those later batterskulls) or Worship which prevents Bant Eldrazi from winning period (they often have no way around it outside of TKSing it out of your hand).
There are also a lot of plays which just have to be done to win against these decks which might not be obvious when one first puts their hands on the deck. I'm talking about stuff like flickerwisping away a tron piece at the end of your turn, or aggressively taking bant eldrazi off a color (or colorless!), or how Thalia stops tron from player karn on T3 even if they have natural tron. BASIC CHECK PEOPLE OFTEN (many decks only run three or so basics and some run less!).
Finally, one thing to look at is, how do these decks beat us when we stop them from getting their unfair mana so quickly? Well, they do what any reasonable deck in that position would do, they try to sweep our board. For these reasons, selfless spirit can actually be a bit of a sleeper here.
I'd like to note that it can be a bit difficult to define certain decks as well as certain cards as being in one category or the other. I'm aware there's a lot of overlap here in the sense that say lantern only really beats you with one card even though it does grind you ought. Equally, burn and affinity are both aggro decks, but they earned their own slots since siding for one or the other can be quite different than it might be for say zoo. Don't be afraid to correct me if you disagree with my assessment. We can give more decks their own categories if people would like to add/ correct information they think is missing/ wrong here.
All in all, I'd say, try to make your mainboard hate out those top tier decks without diluting your deck. Make sure you have enough hate slots for the decks that give you trouble, but try not to overdo it! Yes dredge and affinity are the boogeymen out there in the night, but we CAN beat them with a little help from our friends. It's all about the balance.
I hope this write up was helpful! As always, if you guys have any questions, comments, or anything, feel free to hit me up. Get out there and get taxing!
EDIT: formatting is haaard
EDIT #2: I've added new decks to better reflect the current meta.
4 tectonic edge
4 ghost quarter
2 sea gate wreckage
2 horizon canopy
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains
8 non creature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Selfless Spirit
2 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 blade splicer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sundering Growth
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
2 Brushland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 stirring wildwood
2 Gavony Township
1 tectonic edge
1 gemstone caverns
10 noncreature spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Collected Company
28 creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Restoration Angel
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
1 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Gemstone Caverns
8 Noncreature Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Spellskite
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sin Collector
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Worship
3 Brushland
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Temple Garden
10 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Ancient Stirrings
4 Path to exile
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Leonin Arbiter
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
1 Eternal Witness
4 Thought-knot seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Worship
1 Spellskite
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Mutavault
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 adarkar wastes
1 flooded strand
9 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 detention sphere
28 creatures
3 Spell Queller
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 eldrazi displacer
3 Reflector Mage
4 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 leonin arbiter
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
2 stony silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 ghostly prison
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 Surgical Extraction
1 kira, great glass-spinner
1 blessed alliance
4x Tectonic Edge
4x Ghost Quarter
1x Eiganjo Castle
1x Flagstones of Trokair
13x Plains
Creatures (29)
4x Leonin Arbiter
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Selfless Spirit
4x Flickerwisp
4x Blade Splicer
3x Restoration Angel
2x Serra Avenger
2x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
2x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4x Aether Vial
4x Path to Exile
2x Phyrexian Revoker
3x Sunlance
3x Spellskite
3x Rest in Peace
2x Mirran Crusader
2x Kataki, War’s Wage
I'm still having great luck with this mono-white list - it's been very consistent. Tron is a breeze with all the land hate, and Selfless Spirits to prevent board wipes from o-stone or clasm.
What do you guys think about sideboard options? Specifically, Phyrexian Revoker and Kataki, War's Wage? Pithing Needle and Stony Silence seem more resilient, but the deck really hates lowering the creature count. I'd like to hear your thoughts.
Depending on the meta, Thalia, Heretic Cathar is replaced by Spellskite, Aven Mindcensor, or Vryn Wingmare. Decks rotate pretty consistenly at my LGS - so many times my mainboard is a gamble.
In the sb I'm playing one Elspeth for my grindy matchups and it's fantastic. I'm sonsidering the second (or a Gideon). This would replace the Mirran Crusader in your sb. Even against Jund or Abzan I prefer having Elspeth over Mirran Crusader as she doesn't die to bolt/path and has more inevitability. Additionally she's cold to IoK. And Elspeth also shines against control like grixis or uwr, while Mirran Crusader doesn't as much. So I think she is more powerful and more flexibel (just not a creature).
I mostly play mtgo and affinity is not played too much atm. So I like having ghostly prisons over stony for the flexibility. As you stated your tron matchup is already good enough so we don't need help for them. But this could be completely different in your meta.
I can't say anything about Revoker/needle as I'm playing neither.
Your shell looks pretty similar to mine, and I agree, it is very consistent. As far as sideboard options go, I just don't think Pithing Needle effects are all that well positioned right now. I prefer Grafdigger's Cage or Ghostly Prison to ward off both Elves and Dredge (Cage also puts in work vs. control). The Stony vs. Kataki debate is a bit more nuanced, but I still prefer Stony because of how easy Kataki is to kill (dies to Galvanic Blast, Ghirapur Æther Grid, and Whipflare).
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
@rothgar13: I glanced at your tappedout Death and Taxes list, and yes - very similar. I cut all my one-drop creatures for an extra land and 3 Restoration Angel's. I found that most of the time, the one-drops were off-tempo or didn't do anything. I'd definitely suggest trying out 2-3 Restoration Angel's - they've been great.
I think it's time to speak about the Gearhulk again. So guys, how your tests are going? Where are your success stories? Why do we see ZERO deck with a Gearhulk in main at http://mtgtop8.com/ and only one deck which plays the C-Hulk in a SB?
Awesome card, they say. Much powar, they say.
[/sarcasm]
Warning for Spam
DnT! I'm a power-load
DnT! Watch me Explode
I tested it a bit and it feels like a card that's the exact opposite of win more. By that I mean, it's only good when you're really behind. I'd rather just side in other cards that stop me from being that far behind. 5 mana is too much for me unless maybe in GW, but I'd rather just play Coco through thalia at that point.
4 tectonic edge
4 ghost quarter
2 sea gate wreckage
2 horizon canopy
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains
8 non creature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Selfless Spirit
2 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 blade splicer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sundering Growth
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
2 Brushland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 stirring wildwood
2 Gavony Township
1 tectonic edge
1 gemstone caverns
10 noncreature spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Collected Company
28 creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Restoration Angel
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
1 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Gemstone Caverns
8 Noncreature Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Spellskite
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sin Collector
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Worship
3 Brushland
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Temple Garden
10 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Ancient Stirrings
4 Path to exile
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Leonin Arbiter
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
1 Eternal Witness
4 Thought-knot seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Worship
1 Spellskite
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Mutavault
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 adarkar wastes
1 flooded strand
9 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 detention sphere
28 creatures
3 Spell Queller
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 eldrazi displacer
3 Reflector Mage
4 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 leonin arbiter
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
2 stony silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 ghostly prison
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 Surgical Extraction
1 kira, great glass-spinner
1 blessed alliance
I have done absolutely no testing with it, but I imagine your only 4 drop is TKS and I'd rather not give them a card unless I'll win right then. It's probably just too expensive. That's all theory, but I'd sooner test drowner of hope (sorry I'd do card descriptions, but I'm on my phone) and drowner is in all likelyhood too expensive too.
4 tectonic edge
4 ghost quarter
2 sea gate wreckage
2 horizon canopy
1 Gemstone Caverns
1 Eiganjo Castle
9 Plains
8 non creature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Selfless Spirit
2 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
3 blade splicer
3 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Fiend Hunter
4 Flickerwisp
3 Restoration Angel
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Sundering Growth
2 Plains
1 Forest
2 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
2 Brushland
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Ghost Quarter
2 stirring wildwood
2 Gavony Township
1 tectonic edge
1 gemstone caverns
10 noncreature spells
4 Path to Exile
4 Aether Vial
2 Collected Company
28 creatures
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
4 Flickerwisp
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Restoration Angel
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Ghostly Prison
1 Worship
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Caves of Koilos
4 Concealed Courtyard
2 Godless Shrine
1 Shambling Vent
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Eldrazi Temple
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Plains
1 Gemstone Caverns
8 Noncreature Spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
4 Tidehollow Sculler
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
4 Eldrazi Displacer
2 Spellskite
2 Selfless Spirit
3 Wasteland Strangler
4 Thought-Knot Seer
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Rest in Peace
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Sin Collector
2 Orzhov Pontiff
2 Blessed Alliance
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Worship
3 Brushland
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Forest
2 Gavony Township
1 Gemstone Caverns
4 Ghost Quarter
2 Plains
3 Razorverge Thicket
2 Stirring Wildwood
1 Temple Garden
10 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
2 Ancient Stirrings
4 Path to exile
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Leonin Arbiter
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
3 Eldrazi Displacer
4 Flickerwisp
1 Eternal Witness
4 Thought-knot seer
2 Reality Smasher
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Blessed Alliance
1 Worship
1 Spellskite
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
4 Ghost Quarter
1 Hallowed Fountain
4 Seachrome Coast
1 Eiganjo Castle
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Moorland Haunt
2 Mutavault
1 Island
2 Plains
2 Horizon Canopy
1 adarkar wastes
1 flooded strand
9 noncreature spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
1 detention sphere
28 creatures
3 Spell Queller
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 eldrazi displacer
3 Reflector Mage
4 Flickerwisp
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 leonin arbiter
2 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 spellskite
2 Rest in Peace
2 stony silence
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 ghostly prison
2 burrenton forge-tender
2 Surgical Extraction
1 kira, great glass-spinner
1 blessed alliance
It could turn out that all of those cards together are good enough, but I'm skeptical. I'd say if you are going to add him, he probably needs to be built around. An interesting idea is pairing him with mulldrifter, but that could be quite taxing on the manabase as it would require you to have 3 blue sources in play.
I haven't had the opportunity to test it yet, but I want to go on record as having agreed with everything you just said.
I still think there's potential for a WG Eldrich Evolution toolbox and taxes deck, which would definitely want Cataclysmic Gearhulk as a maindeck answer to Affinity, Elves, Zoo, etc. But that's still a pretty atypical idea for how to build WG. CoCo just seems better most of the time.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
Go back a few pages and give the video I posted a watch, specifically game 3. I was able to cast a gearhulk vs. and elves opponent, most people may have missed the video though since the new page rolled over pretty quickly. My opponent would have still won through it, so I'm not sure what other sideboard card would have saved me in its place.
Also I don't think anyone ever suggested playing gearhulks in the main deck.
Also I'm still waiting for an actual response from you to our last discussion on this topic.
Slayer stronghold and kiki really impressed me.
Can also play bolt in the board instead of Sunlance.
Eidolon of great revels would also be interesting.
Any thoughts?
A while ago, I typed up a WR Card Choice list. That list is obviously out of date now, but it's under construction and being developed into a mini-primer similar to the WU one.
Slayers' Stronghold is a good card. Swinging for 5 in the air with a Flickerwisp that you just Vialed in is awesome.
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker though, is significantly less good. Sometimes you get to combo out with Restoration Angel, but most of the time Kiki-Jiki is just an underwhelming, hard-to-cast 5-drop.
This is Modern. If you're playing red in a non-combo archetype and Lightning Bolt isn't in your maindeck, then you're doing it wrong. Run as many copies of Lightning Bolt as you can comfortably jam. (If at any time your maindeck Lightning Bolt count drops below 3, reevaluate your other 58 cards and find room for at least one more Bolt. There's no way that your other 58 cards are better than your 3rd Lightning Bolt.)
Eidolon of the Great Revel has been discussed, but usually doesn't make a final cut. Sure, we can play around it using an Æther Vial, but almost everything that we cast costs 3 mana or less. It's a high variance card in our deck, which means that it's usually not good.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps