The Rock/Jund/Junk (henceforth known as bgx) is a black, green and maybe something else aggro-control deck that is one of the most popular decks in the modern format due to ease of play and raw power of the cards in the deck. A novice can take a bgx deck and do well while an expert will be suitably rewarded with the same deck.
This piece is written from the perspective of a wg player. Wg has excellent answers to bgx and is likely the best dnt/hatebears deck against them. This isn't to say that other decks are incapable but rather that's just how the cards line up. Straight-white has the capability of stomping bgx into the ground as well but requires using cards that can make less sense in other matchups. I'll add tech for bw/uw players as I can. For what it's worth, I don't claim expertise that other contributors to this thread have in those splashes. I will add notes regarding them to this post so it can be added to the collective knowledge base in one place for ease of access. Don't be afraid to speak up.
A bgx pilot has three objectives. First, use low cost targeted discard spells (Inquisition of Kozilek/Thoghtseize) to remove threatening cards or disrupt the tempo of the next play while gaining knowledge of our game. Second, destroy every nonland permanent that the opponent plays to have a battle of top decks. Third, win the battle of top decks with Tarmogoyf, Scavenging Ooze, and Dark Confidant/Grim Flayer/Tasigur.
Let's examine each objective and how we counteract it.
Discard is probably the most insidious weapon that bgx has against us. For the cost of one black mana and perhaps two life, a bgx player can know our strategy, disrupt our tempo, and take our most disruptive card. DNT/hatebears is a deck that thrives on subtle synergies and this hurts greatly.
In terms of main deck playability our best card is eternal witness as it gets back whatever was taken and acts as a chump blocker or even a source of some damage. Uncommon choices that are good here are Loxodon Smiter and Wilt-Leaf Liege as they're put into play rather than the graveyard. It's sad but wg has the best main deck answers here.
Once we open up the sideboard we find leyline of sanctity that nullifies discard and turns inquisition/thoughtseize into dead cards. This is the reason I play three in my sideboard. The fact that it shuts off many oddball decks is just gravy.
Heavy removal is where the control elements of bgx come in. Abrupt decay and maelstrom pulse are two of the best removal cards printed and four or more copies will fit into every deck of this type. Lightning bolt, terminate, and path to exile round out the targeted removal spells. I'd be remiss if I left out kolaghan's command and the Lillianas. Command will almost always be a two for one in whatever modes are chosen and the Lillianas offer repeatable removal.
The answer to this is value and threat density which we have innately. This may be in the form of blade splicer, kitchen finks, voice of resurgence, eternal witness, wall of resurgence, or wasteland strangler. These creatures enter or leave the battlefield with a trigger that advances our board state so we' re ahead even if they're removed. This incremental advantage is absolutely vital to beating bgx.
Another important aspect of threat density is the playing of utility and manlands. This is a luxury that we have and most decks do not. Practically every version of dnt/hatebears runs two or more man-lands, up to four horizon canopys and at least one utility land. The mixture is almost always dictated by color. Once again white/green has the easiest time of this as canopy is the best draw card available to this deck, stirring wildwood dodges almost all removal while having reach and gavony township gains two power from an intact blade splicer, resets kitchen finks, and enable hierarchs to swing for damage. This isn't to discount vault of the archangel or moorland haunt. Both are excellent cards in this matchup and otherwise, but the realities of manabase construction dictate that canopy is greedy while wb/wu manlands are either not as good as wildwood or wildly expensive to activate respectively. It should be noted that straight-white is not in a bad spot in this aspect. Mutavault is excellent and seagate wreckage is likely to keep you ahead in terms of cards. Blinkmoth nexus is brutally strong when used in conjunction with wall of resurgence.
The final aspect that we should consider when it comes to our creatures is that of resilience. Having their removal miss our creatures altogether or forcing the opponent to use two cards to get rid of one creature lets us advance or keep our board position. Examples of these cards are Brimaz, thought -knot seer, loxodon smiter, wilt-leaf liege, and mirran crusader. These evade removal by nature of their toughness or protection. It doesn't really matter though. They make life miserable for our opponents. Wall of resurgence is an excellent card in this instance as it is both resilient and provides additional value. [u]It is an absolute nightmare for bgx. [\u]
Note: I specifically did not mention using wisp and resto to blink your creatures and dodge removal as this is a corner play that really can't be taken for granted in a removal heavy deck like bgx.
All of the cards that have been mentioned in this section are mainboard cards. When it comes to sideboard we're still in a good spot. Mark of asylum prevents non-combat damage to our creatures while spellskite is an excellent answer to path to exile and kolaghan's command. The aforementioned leyline also turns off Lilliana's sac ability. I'm a proponent of siding out aether vial in this match. This lets us play over thirty proper creatures and with the lands that were mentioned earlier, we have an excellent chance of drawing more threats than the bgx player can deal with.
Third, the bgx player will hope to overwhelm the opposition with big beaters or card advantage. This takes the form of goyfs and scoozes that are fat on graveyards or dark confidants and Liliana, the last hope that can secure extra cards as well as remove our weenies. Grim flayer acts as card filtering when it deals combat damage to an opponent. It has a good chance of doing so. The final threat they pose is with fat beaters which can swing the board state on their own. These are kalitas, traitor of ghet, siege rhino, and Tasigur. These are our biggest threats as they outsize our creatures and effect the board otherwise. It should be noted that junk plays a set of lingering souls mainboard. These are hellish for us as a single token trades with a flickerwisp.
The best mainboard solution to goyf, scooze and Lili the last hope are.... Your own scooze! We should have easier access to green mana than the bgx player and don't need to choose between it and casting other spells. Loxodon smiter answers Lili of the veil well. Dark Confidants are troublesome as a path to exile is poorly spent on it. The correct answer is to block off the ground and pressure the opposition with flyers. Black splashes have an excellent target for wasteland strangler. Lingering souls is troublesome as one token trades with a flickerwisp which is part of our win condition. Our best card here is Serra avenger, but that's not a great card in this matchup otherwise. It should be noted that stirring wildwood can block tokens. This is true, but spending three plus one mana to block 25% of a card is inherently inefficient. Forcing them into positions of chump blocking with the tokens keeps them from beating our face in. This is made easier by the fact that junk has less removal than jund.
Post-board we have access to powerful graveyard hate that shuts down goyf and scooze like rest in peace (kill shot), relic of progenitus (cantrip), and jotun grunt (beater). These cards also shut down the most troubling aspect of Liliana, the last hope. This is also how we should oppose lingering souls. Two tokens from one card is much more manageable than four tokens from one card.
Have I pimped leyline of sanctity enough? No? It turns Liliana of the veil into a card disadvantage engine rather than a card advantage engine. It's great against bgx.
The worst threat of bgx are the 4+ cmc creatures that compare favorably to ours and have a secondary ability. Again, save a path to exile for them.
This covers beating their game. This is more than half the battle being as we play a meta deck. That said, we must attack their weakness while nullifying their strength to win. Bgx has two primary weaknesses that we're in a position to take advantage of.
First, garden variety bgx plays with no flyers and counts on removal to deal with yours. This is another reason that lingering souls is so good against them. It should be noted that junk has lingering souls of their own so this part doesn't apply to them.
Second, the bgx manabase is weak and greedy; jund particularly so. They play many fetchlands and no basic mountains. Color screwing them off red eliminates half of their removal and makes it a much more even game. Keeping them off two black mana or two green mana is more difficult, but still doable. This turns off Liliana and damnation. Their own scoozes become much more manageable when starved.
Hope you've enjoyed the read and good luck versus bgx. It should be a practically free win for us. Please comment and I'll add to this post.
Your success in playing dnt/hatebears is determined largely by your ability to read and prepare for the meta that you will be playing in. Furthermore, it has an absolutely brutal learning curve. Expect to lose; a lot.
Hope you've enjoyed the read and good luck versus bgx. It should be a practically free win for us.
I disagree, I would says it's a favorable matchup but a "free win is REALLY pushing it.
Also you didn't talk about the opposing SB really at all, Thruun can be a pain in the ass.
I agree that overall green is the best agianst Jund followed by Mono-white.
GW is clearly the variant that's best suited to fighting BGX, but to call it a free win is hyperbolic. Not even Tron gets free wins off that deck, and that's by far their worst matchup. The Leyline of Sanctity suggestion is an interesting one, and I need to really think on whether it's the way to go. What would you side out for it? Vial? Because lowering threat density feels like it would just get you killed by running out of guys.
I think this build went a little bit too deep on the Vehicles angle. I can't recommend 4 Copters in a Bolt-centric format, and having the Moon on an enchantment as opposed to a creature goes against what Taxes is about (which is disruptive threats). Veteran Motorist is solid bang for the buck, but a ground-bound X/1 just isn't that good by definition. I think this deck needs to return to a more conventional shell, then critically look at how to add those juicy R disruptive elements.
Thanks for the reply. The thing is that I don't care much for any of my boltable threats. In the long run they are 1-for 1s or even 1-for 2s as soon as it gets into the 3cmc category. Veteran Motorist is very good as a 3-1. As long as my opponent doesn't play Night of Soul's Betrayal i don't care. He scrys me a land in the lategame under the library or allows me to hit the perfect curve. It can be blocked but it blocks trice as good. All my games are a race. I have 10 flying threats in my deck and 8 1cmc removal spells. He has his uses, believe me.
You are right, my approach wasn't from a D&T deck. What do you think must be implemented from the original D&T? Testing has made me think to get again to 4 Arbiters and maybe 4 Flickerwisp but I am not sure if the Vial is needed. it surely makes many elements a lot more flexible but it also would make me a lot more prone to Stony Silence. I'm eager to hear further advices!
So what I would do is focus really hard on land hate and on jamming Lightning Bolt. Since the combination of Blood Moon effects and Leonin Arbiter + Ghost Quarter lets you disrupt any manabase out there, I feel like that's a strong place to start. I also like Thalia, Heretic Cathar for that very reason. I've been doing some cursory testing on Smuggler's Copter in mono-W, and the results on 4 are very discouraging. It's a horrible topdeck in a deck that really can't afford those, and it's very clunky with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. I would shelve those until further testing is done. Instead, try out Selfless Spirit as a way to protect your creture investments. Overall, I'd test out something that looks more or less like this:
My view is that Judge's Familiar helps choke out opponents that are already behind due to the land hate (not to mention protect the Magus of the Moon), but if it turns out that you need a bit more muscle, you can always move P&K to the mainboard and even pack some Restoration Angels to wring as much juice out of them as you can.
Anyone tinkered with a spirits version U/W? or have any links to one?
Check out Jendo's Streams, he's been tinkering with it. Idk if Deathandcatmix had anytime for it. From what I've concluded, it seems like you either fit in the Wanderers or the TKS, and can't seem to find room for both without cutting corners on playsets of others. But you can tinker around.
@kp_tcg, I didn't go into the bgx sideboard because it is both INCREDIBLY diverse (spans up to four colors and differences are more common than similarities) and because it's just more of the same that has already been addressed. The only thing I can think to add is that the decks have access to sweepers. Knowing not to play into sweepers is required for dnt players.
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Your success in playing dnt/hatebears is determined largely by your ability to read and prepare for the meta that you will be playing in. Furthermore, it has an absolutely brutal learning curve. Expect to lose; a lot.
@rothgar, I've personally faired very well against bgx because of the principles in that write up. I like leyline because it's very good in bgx, burn and valakut which make up ~25% of the meta according the mtgtop8. It also hurts many brew and uncommon decks that aren't worth preparing sideboard slots for specifically as they don't make up enough of the meta and we'd do poorly against otherwise. I'm thinking specifcally of 8rack and lantern here.
The question of what to side out is an interesting one. I personally like to include ~40 cards that are creatures (manlands included) or removal post board. I'll use the white/green deck listed above as I've played something almost identical to that on more than one occasion. This is assuming a jund matchup rather than junk/rock. -4 vial, -2 hierarch/qasali pridemage (depends on how high opponent shifted in curve). +3 blessed alliance, +3 leyline.
Blessed alliance is deceptively good in this match as jund matches are grindy and can allow a sac + untap into ambush block during opponent's attack phase with escalate. It should be remembered that the untap poertion takes place before the sac as it's listed on the card in that order.
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Your success in playing dnt/hatebears is determined largely by your ability to read and prepare for the meta that you will be playing in. Furthermore, it has an absolutely brutal learning curve. Expect to lose; a lot.
With all the discussion around smuggler's copter and gearhulk i'm starting to think a new variant using artifacts may be viable. Here's a list of artifacts we have to work with:
- smuggler's copter
- Cataclysmic gearhulk
- aethersworn canonist
- spellskite
- phyrexian revoker
- tidehollow sculler (he's artifact!)
- lodestone golem
- relic of progenitus
- aethervial
With all the discussion around smuggler's copter and gearhulk i'm starting to think a new variant using artifacts may be viable. Here's a list of artifacts we have to work with:
- smuggler's copter
- Cataclysmic gearhulk
- aethersworn canonist
- tidehollow sculler
- spellskite
- phyrexian revoker
- tidehollow sculler (he's artifact!)
- lodestone golem
- relic of progenitus
- aethervial
So what would be the benefit of all those cards being artifacts?
With all the discussion around smuggler's copter and gearhulk i'm starting to think a new variant using artifacts may be viable. Here's a list of artifacts we have to work with:
- smuggler's copter
- Cataclysmic gearhulk
- aethersworn canonist
- tidehollow sculler
- spellskite
- phyrexian revoker
- tidehollow sculler (he's artifact!)
- lodestone golem
- relic of progenitus
- aethervial
So what would be the benefit of all those cards being artifacts?
We don't auto-lose G2 to Affinity running Whipflare.
I mean, that's gotta be worth changing the whole deck, right?
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
With all the discussion around smuggler's copter and gearhulk i'm starting to think a new variant using artifacts may be viable. Here's a list of artifacts we have to work with:
- smuggler's copter
- Cataclysmic gearhulk
- aethersworn canonist
- tidehollow sculler
- spellskite
- phyrexian revoker
- tidehollow sculler (he's artifact!)
- lodestone golem
- relic of progenitus
- aethervial
So what would be the benefit of all those cards being artifacts?
I can only see downsides, as having reliance on artifacts will make the deck weaker not only to the usual creature decks hate but also affinity, ad nauseam and tron hate.
We don't auto-lose G2 to Affinity running Whipflare.
I mean, that's gotta be worth changing the whole deck, right?
While that is helpful, it's kind of the most niche scenario you could possibly wish for against affinity. Burrenton Forge-Tender covers this problem without making the deck weaker to the rest of the field's sideboard, while also providing an edge against a lethal Galvanic Blast or a removal aimed at your best dude.
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We don't auto-lose G2 to Affinity running Whipflare.
I mean, that's gotta be worth changing the whole deck, right?
While that is helpful, it's kind of the most niche scenario you could possibly wish for against affinity. Burrenton Forge-Tender covers this problem without making the deck weaker to the rest of the field's sideboard, while also providing an edge against a lethal Galvanic Blast or a removal aimed at your best dude.
I'm deeply saddened that you thought I was being serious. The oddball suggestions in this thread just got slightly too real.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
I will admit i got carried away with trying to jam aethersworn (underated card imo), though most of the artifacts i mentioned are relevant and played in most builds anyway (so i wouldn't call it changing the whole deck). The upside is you get to play aethersworn and force opponent to 1 spell per turn, but yes i realise the cons far outweighs the pros.
We don't auto-lose G2 to Affinity running Whipflare.
I mean, that's gotta be worth changing the whole deck, right?
While that is helpful, it's kind of the most niche scenario you could possibly wish for against affinity. Burrenton Forge-Tender covers this problem without making the deck weaker to the rest of the field's sideboard, while also providing an edge against a lethal Galvanic Blast or a removal aimed at your best dude.
I'm deeply saddened that you thought I was being serious. The oddball suggestions in this thread just got slightly too real.
I completely missed the second line in your comment, sorry. I couldn't agree more.
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In Lorwyn's brief evenings, the sun pauses at the horizon long enough for a certain species of violet to bloom with the fragrance of mischief.
While Ethersworn Canonist is a good card, there's no point in playing it when we have access to the more superior Eidolon of Rhetoric that actually survives quite a few more removal spells as well as provides a suitable blocking body.
Real talk though, running more artifacts in general makes the deck weaker, not stronger, due to the prevalence of artifact hate-- after all, everyone and their dog runs artifact hate in the sideboard due to decks like Tron and Affinity. There's no need in giving ourselves that vulnerability when our only targets (normally) are Aether Vial, Phyrexian Revoker/Pithing Needle, Spellskite, and Tidehollow Sculler-- and the latter two are not *always* run.
The more I think about it, the more I want to try mono-white D&T to experience the consistency you guys say it has. What would you say is the ideal number of Restos/Wall of Resurgence/Brimaz/Blade Splicer to run, and should I drop Eldrazi Displacer? It's definitely one of the best tools in E&T.
What's goin' on everyone? I've been sleeping on mtg while adjusting to the move to a new city, so I've been lurking around the thread without actually replying. I see that there is a lot of new comers and people trying to innovate - that's what's up. I was able to get some reps in, so I figured I'd share the deck I plan to run here in Pitt when I'm not on URX.
As some of you may remember, I usually run Mono-White because I like it's consistency and resiliency.
I've been been back and forth trying to decide between 2x Brimaz and 1x Aven Mindcensor, or 2x Thalia 2.0 and 1x Brimaz. Ultimately I decided on Brimaz and Aven since Thalia's benefits always seem marginal - she delays the opponent for a turn at best if she doesn't get removed, and some people just ignore her all together (I would probably run her in WG though since you can ramp into her turn 2). My only beef with Brimaz is that he leaves no value the turn he comes in, so he's usually the first cut depending on the match-up. I run maindeck Linvala since she can turn off problematic abilities, and dodges bolt and decay. It's worked well for me for awhile now, and I like having the extra slot in the SB. Selfless Spirit has been great, but I cut 1 to fit in a Skite because it can be a major roadblock for a lot of decks game 1.
What would you say is the ideal number of Restos/Wall of Resurgence/Brimaz/Blade Splicer to run, and should I drop Eldrazi Displacer? It's definitely one of the best tools in E&T.
You should try to found Your own best amount. I'm sure You need to keep at least one Displacer. If You're not certain, two of them would be good.
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DnT! And I'll win the fight
DnT! I'm a power-load
DnT! Watch me Explode
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That scoop on game 3. Beautiful.
Edit: hahaha Todd tilts out so hard. I love seeing Infect get punished.
WB Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim | WBR Queen Marchesa | WUBR Breya, Etherium Shaper
Modern:
/ Death and Taxes | W/ Soul Sisters | Spirits | U Faeries | Tempered Steel Affinity
Interesting. Is spell queller really worth it over TKS? I do like their analysis on Judge's Familiar and Mausoleum Wanderer.
Modern Tallowisp Spirits - A Modern Tallowisp Deck UW
Eldrazi Ninjas - Summoning Octopus Jutsu YYYYAAAHHHH!
STANDARD
Naban Wizards
The Rock/Jund/Junk (henceforth known as bgx) is a black, green and maybe something else aggro-control deck that is one of the most popular decks in the modern format due to ease of play and raw power of the cards in the deck. A novice can take a bgx deck and do well while an expert will be suitably rewarded with the same deck.
This piece is written from the perspective of a wg player. Wg has excellent answers to bgx and is likely the best dnt/hatebears deck against them. This isn't to say that other decks are incapable but rather that's just how the cards line up. Straight-white has the capability of stomping bgx into the ground as well but requires using cards that can make less sense in other matchups. I'll add tech for bw/uw players as I can. For what it's worth, I don't claim expertise that other contributors to this thread have in those splashes. I will add notes regarding them to this post so it can be added to the collective knowledge base in one place for ease of access. Don't be afraid to speak up.
A bgx pilot has three objectives. First, use low cost targeted discard spells (Inquisition of Kozilek/Thoghtseize) to remove threatening cards or disrupt the tempo of the next play while gaining knowledge of our game. Second, destroy every nonland permanent that the opponent plays to have a battle of top decks. Third, win the battle of top decks with Tarmogoyf, Scavenging Ooze, and Dark Confidant/Grim Flayer/Tasigur.
Let's examine each objective and how we counteract it.
In terms of main deck playability our best card is eternal witness as it gets back whatever was taken and acts as a chump blocker or even a source of some damage. Uncommon choices that are good here are Loxodon Smiter and Wilt-Leaf Liege as they're put into play rather than the graveyard. It's sad but wg has the best main deck answers here.
Once we open up the sideboard we find leyline of sanctity that nullifies discard and turns inquisition/thoughtseize into dead cards. This is the reason I play three in my sideboard. The fact that it shuts off many oddball decks is just gravy.
The answer to this is value and threat density which we have innately. This may be in the form of blade splicer, kitchen finks, voice of resurgence, eternal witness, wall of resurgence, or wasteland strangler. These creatures enter or leave the battlefield with a trigger that advances our board state so we' re ahead even if they're removed. This incremental advantage is absolutely vital to beating bgx.
Another important aspect of threat density is the playing of utility and manlands. This is a luxury that we have and most decks do not. Practically every version of dnt/hatebears runs two or more man-lands, up to four horizon canopys and at least one utility land. The mixture is almost always dictated by color. Once again white/green has the easiest time of this as canopy is the best draw card available to this deck, stirring wildwood dodges almost all removal while having reach and gavony township gains two power from an intact blade splicer, resets kitchen finks, and enable hierarchs to swing for damage. This isn't to discount vault of the archangel or moorland haunt. Both are excellent cards in this matchup and otherwise, but the realities of manabase construction dictate that canopy is greedy while wb/wu manlands are either not as good as wildwood or wildly expensive to activate respectively. It should be noted that straight-white is not in a bad spot in this aspect. Mutavault is excellent and seagate wreckage is likely to keep you ahead in terms of cards. Blinkmoth nexus is brutally strong when used in conjunction with wall of resurgence.
The final aspect that we should consider when it comes to our creatures is that of resilience. Having their removal miss our creatures altogether or forcing the opponent to use two cards to get rid of one creature lets us advance or keep our board position. Examples of these cards are Brimaz, thought -knot seer, loxodon smiter, wilt-leaf liege, and mirran crusader. These evade removal by nature of their toughness or protection. It doesn't really matter though. They make life miserable for our opponents. Wall of resurgence is an excellent card in this instance as it is both resilient and provides additional value. [u]It is an absolute nightmare for bgx. [\u]
Note: I specifically did not mention using wisp and resto to blink your creatures and dodge removal as this is a corner play that really can't be taken for granted in a removal heavy deck like bgx.
All of the cards that have been mentioned in this section are mainboard cards. When it comes to sideboard we're still in a good spot. Mark of asylum prevents non-combat damage to our creatures while spellskite is an excellent answer to path to exile and kolaghan's command. The aforementioned leyline also turns off Lilliana's sac ability. I'm a proponent of siding out aether vial in this match. This lets us play over thirty proper creatures and with the lands that were mentioned earlier, we have an excellent chance of drawing more threats than the bgx player can deal with.
The best mainboard solution to goyf, scooze and Lili the last hope are.... Your own scooze! We should have easier access to green mana than the bgx player and don't need to choose between it and casting other spells. Loxodon smiter answers Lili of the veil well. Dark Confidants are troublesome as a path to exile is poorly spent on it. The correct answer is to block off the ground and pressure the opposition with flyers. Black splashes have an excellent target for wasteland strangler. Lingering souls is troublesome as one token trades with a flickerwisp which is part of our win condition. Our best card here is Serra avenger, but that's not a great card in this matchup otherwise. It should be noted that stirring wildwood can block tokens. This is true, but spending three plus one mana to block 25% of a card is inherently inefficient. Forcing them into positions of chump blocking with the tokens keeps them from beating our face in. This is made easier by the fact that junk has less removal than jund.
Post-board we have access to powerful graveyard hate that shuts down goyf and scooze like rest in peace (kill shot), relic of progenitus (cantrip), and jotun grunt (beater). These cards also shut down the most troubling aspect of Liliana, the last hope. This is also how we should oppose lingering souls. Two tokens from one card is much more manageable than four tokens from one card.
Have I pimped leyline of sanctity enough? No? It turns Liliana of the veil into a card disadvantage engine rather than a card advantage engine. It's great against bgx.
The worst threat of bgx are the 4+ cmc creatures that compare favorably to ours and have a secondary ability. Again, save a path to exile for them.
First, garden variety bgx plays with no flyers and counts on removal to deal with yours. This is another reason that lingering souls is so good against them. It should be noted that junk has lingering souls of their own so this part doesn't apply to them.
Second, the bgx manabase is weak and greedy; jund particularly so. They play many fetchlands and no basic mountains. Color screwing them off red eliminates half of their removal and makes it a much more even game. Keeping them off two black mana or two green mana is more difficult, but still doable. This turns off Liliana and damnation. Their own scoozes become much more manageable when starved.
Hope you've enjoyed the read and good luck versus bgx. It should be a practically free win for us. Please comment and I'll add to this post.
Sample decks
4 Aether vial
4 path to exile
Lands
4 ghost quarter
3 tectonic edge
3 blinkmoth nexus
1 seagate wreckage
1 eiganjo castle
2 horizon canopy
8 plains
1 flagstones of trokair
4 leonin arbiter
4 Thalia, guardian of thraben
3 selfless spirit
2 spellskite
1 aven mindcensor
4 flickerwisp
4 wall of resurgence
3 blade splicer
4 restoration angel
3 rest in peace
3 leyline of sanctity
2 burrenton forgetender
1 Sword of fire and ice
2 eidolon of rhetoric
2 stony silence
2 collective blessing
4 aether vial
4 path to exile
Lands
4 razorverge thicket
3 temple garden
4 horizon canopy
4 stirring wildwood
4 ghost quarter
1 tectonic edge
2 forest
1 plains
4 noble hierarch
4 voice of resurgence
4 leonin arbiter
2 qasali pridemage
4 scavenging ooze
2 aven mindcensor
2 kitchen finks
4 loxodon smiter
3 wilt-leaf liege
3 blessed alliance
2 qasali pridemage
1 creeping corrosion
3 burrenton forgetender
2 spellskite
1 sword of fire and ice
3 leyline of sanctity
Also you didn't talk about the opposing SB really at all, Thruun can be a pain in the ass.
I agree that overall green is the best agianst Jund followed by Mono-white.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
So what I would do is focus really hard on land hate and on jamming Lightning Bolt. Since the combination of Blood Moon effects and Leonin Arbiter + Ghost Quarter lets you disrupt any manabase out there, I feel like that's a strong place to start. I also like Thalia, Heretic Cathar for that very reason. I've been doing some cursory testing on Smuggler's Copter in mono-W, and the results on 4 are very discouraging. It's a horrible topdeck in a deck that really can't afford those, and it's very clunky with Thalia, Guardian of Thraben. I would shelve those until further testing is done. Instead, try out Selfless Spirit as a way to protect your creture investments. Overall, I'd test out something that looks more or less like this:
4 Aether Vial
Creatures (26)
4 Blade Splicer
4 Flickerwisp
4 Judge's Familiar
4 Leonin Arbiter
2 Magus of the Moon
3 Selfless Spirit
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Path to Exile
Lands (22)
4 Battlefield Forge
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Inspiring Vantage
1 Mountain
3 Plains
4 Sacred Foundry
2 Tectonic Edge
2 Electrickery
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Magus of the Moon
2 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Wear // Tear
1 Worship
My view is that Judge's Familiar helps choke out opponents that are already behind due to the land hate (not to mention protect the Magus of the Moon), but if it turns out that you need a bit more muscle, you can always move P&K to the mainboard and even pack some Restoration Angels to wring as much juice out of them as you can.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
Check out Jendo's Streams, he's been tinkering with it. Idk if Deathandcatmix had anytime for it. From what I've concluded, it seems like you either fit in the Wanderers or the TKS, and can't seem to find room for both without cutting corners on playsets of others. But you can tinker around.
The question of what to side out is an interesting one. I personally like to include ~40 cards that are creatures (manlands included) or removal post board. I'll use the white/green deck listed above as I've played something almost identical to that on more than one occasion. This is assuming a jund matchup rather than junk/rock. -4 vial, -2 hierarch/qasali pridemage (depends on how high opponent shifted in curve). +3 blessed alliance, +3 leyline.
Blessed alliance is deceptively good in this match as jund matches are grindy and can allow a sac + untap into ambush block during opponent's attack phase with escalate. It should be remembered that the untap poertion takes place before the sac as it's listed on the card in that order.
- smuggler's copter
- Cataclysmic gearhulk
- aethersworn canonist
- spellskite
- phyrexian revoker
- tidehollow sculler (he's artifact!)
- lodestone golem
- relic of progenitus
- aethervial
So what would be the benefit of all those cards being artifacts?
I mean, that's gotta be worth changing the whole deck, right?
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
I can only see downsides, as having reliance on artifacts will make the deck weaker not only to the usual creature decks hate but also affinity, ad nauseam and tron hate.
While that is helpful, it's kind of the most niche scenario you could possibly wish for against affinity. Burrenton Forge-Tender covers this problem without making the deck weaker to the rest of the field's sideboard, while also providing an edge against a lethal Galvanic Blast or a removal aimed at your best dude.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
I completely missed the second line in your comment, sorry. I couldn't agree more.
Real talk though, running more artifacts in general makes the deck weaker, not stronger, due to the prevalence of artifact hate-- after all, everyone and their dog runs artifact hate in the sideboard due to decks like Tron and Affinity. There's no need in giving ourselves that vulnerability when our only targets (normally) are Aether Vial, Phyrexian Revoker/Pithing Needle, Spellskite, and Tidehollow Sculler-- and the latter two are not *always* run.
The more I think about it, the more I want to try mono-white D&T to experience the consistency you guys say it has. What would you say is the ideal number of Restos/Wall of Resurgence/Brimaz/Blade Splicer to run, and should I drop Eldrazi Displacer? It's definitely one of the best tools in E&T.
WB Ayli, Eternal Pilgrim | WBR Queen Marchesa | WUBR Breya, Etherium Shaper
Modern:
/ Death and Taxes | W/ Soul Sisters | Spirits | U Faeries | Tempered Steel Affinity
As some of you may remember, I usually run Mono-White because I like it's consistency and resiliency.
1x Aven Mindcensor
4x Blade Splicer
2x Brimaz, King of Oreskos
4x Flickerwisp
2x Kitchen Finks
4x Leonin Arbiter
1x Linvala, Keeper of Silence
3x Restoration Angel
3x Selfless Spirit
1x Spellskite
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1x Eiganjo Castle
4x Ghost Quarter
2x Horizon Canopy
2x Mutavault
11x Plains
3x Tectonic Edge
Instant (4)
4x Path to Exile
Artifact (4)
4x AEther Vial
2x Blessed Alliance
1x Fragmentize
1x Grafdigger's Cage
3x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Mirran Crusader
2x Rest in Peace
2x Stony Silence
2x Sunlance
I've been been back and forth trying to decide between 2x Brimaz and 1x Aven Mindcensor, or 2x Thalia 2.0 and 1x Brimaz. Ultimately I decided on Brimaz and Aven since Thalia's benefits always seem marginal - she delays the opponent for a turn at best if she doesn't get removed, and some people just ignore her all together (I would probably run her in WG though since you can ramp into her turn 2). My only beef with Brimaz is that he leaves no value the turn he comes in, so he's usually the first cut depending on the match-up. I run maindeck Linvala since she can turn off problematic abilities, and dodges bolt and decay. It's worked well for me for awhile now, and I like having the extra slot in the SB. Selfless Spirit has been great, but I cut 1 to fit in a Skite because it can be a major roadblock for a lot of decks game 1.
You should try to found Your own best amount. I'm sure You need to keep at least one Displacer. If You're not certain, two of them would be good.
DnT! I'm a power-load
DnT! Watch me Explode