Play tested a dredge list with 16 lands, 4 simian spirit guides and 4 golgari thugs. Simian spirit guides made me achieve nasty turns, also, you can put it on top of your library if its in your graveyard when golgari thug dies, helping you flashback conflagrate easier and faithless. I cut 1 neonate, added an additional darkblast. The deck is super powerful still. I will play the version I've been testing in a GPT this weekend.
It's a decent read for anyone less familiar with the dredge deck trying to understand the impact of losing Grave-Troll.
However, where I begin to disagree is the proposed Shriekhorn solution. The article has made me consider 1-2 Shriekhorn as a potential solution to the loss of 6 dredged cards with the Thug-for-Troll swap, but replacing Insolent Neonate is not the correct decision. Also, 4 Loams is a lot. You should rarely need more than two in a game (three in decklist) even when going all-in on a Conflagrate plan, so if you're just looking for an additional Dredge 3, I'd say run more Darkblasts.
Its a good read espcially since Im not mathy, but he makes two mistakes. The first is as you noted, he looks at shriekhorn with out tempo in his mind. Tempo is key here and shriekhorn should read "dredge 4, then exile" because tempo wise, the first 4 matter, the next two you should already be winning.
The next mistake he makes is also one numbers cant see, but you can see in practice clearly. Which is discard makes dredge cards reusable, thus thug does more work incase of fizzles. Shriekhorn can dredge once if naturally drawn, and dredge cards are better in the yard.
This is where his article fails as it doesnt account for the existance of haunted dead.
But the first part as you said is good, for math. To me its clear, we add 4 thugs, then up our dredge by at least one dredge 3, darkblast or life from the loam. After that, another discard outlet from the grave is nessary, be it haunted dead or phantasmagorian. If you still have an issue, add another dredge 3 (at the cost of likely scourge. I think huanted recycle should be more than enough.)
Tempo is important, and the numbers he preposes works, but much later in the game. Getting it all going by turn 6 is far too late against most decks. Im going to run this:
Its a good read espcially since Im not mathy, but he makes two mistakes. The first is as you noted, he looks at shriekhorn with out tempo in his mind. Tempo is key here and shriekhorn should read "dredge 4, then exile" because tempo wise, the first 4 matter, the next two you should already be winning.
The next mistake he makes is also one numbers cant see, but you can see in practice clearly. Which is discard makes dredge cards reusable, thus thug does more work incase of fizzles. Shriekhorn can dredge once if naturally drawn, and dredge cards are better in the yard.
This is where his article fails as it doesnt account for the existance of haunted dead.
But the first part as you said is good, for math. To me its clear, we add 4 thugs, then up our dredge by at least one dredge 3, darkblast or life from the loam. After that, another discard outlet from the grave is nessary, be it haunted dead or phantasmagorian. If you still have an issue, add another dredge 3 (at the cost of likely scourge. I think huanted recycle should be more than enough.)
Tempo is important, and the numbers he preposes works, but much later in the game. Getting it all going by turn 6 is far too late against most decks. Im going to run this:
Currently yes. Still debating cards to cut. Aint gunna be any dredger so its either conflag, haunted, the forest, or scourge
My vote is for the scourge. Other than that, our lists are identical except for the second mountain which I have as a mana confluence.
Also, I'm going to try some destructive revelrys in the board over a couple nature's claims. I've had this idea for a while, as the 6 point life difference seemed to be good even with the old lists. But now, it looks like it could matter even more. I'm not sure if we can afford to gift our opponents 4 life anymore, because that just slows down our kill even further. I'll test but I think the idea is sound.
Dang, I like the plan of cutting Neonates except for anti-grave hate in games 2 and 3. There are so many times that I curve out Neonate, Narcomoeba, Thug/Neonate or Amalgam to beat a hard mull to Leyline or Rest in Peace. I haven't looked back over the matches to see how I perform in the match overall with that kind of play, though, and how many match percentage points I'm gaining or giving by losing the bad aggro plan. Still, dinausorus on this forum is on 4 Tome Scour, 2 Neonate. I may test going deeper and playing 4 Scour and 2 Shriekhorn. A Thought Scour is like a Neonate + Stinkweed Imp in one if we're on our plan A, and a Shriekhorn is now like a Neonate and our second-best dredger in the first two turns and like a Neonate and a banned dredger in the first three.
I think I would play Rally before the other cards in the flex slot because Haunted Dead can come post-sb in Anger match-ups. The third Conflagrate is something I side out often.
I am tempted to play 2-3 Ghost Quarter in the side to have some game against the (MANY MANY) Tron lists out there. Everyone decided to jump on the Tron bandwagon after people wrote that the bans and Fatal Push would help midrange, and I am tired of playing against Ugin, Relic, and Rest in Peace all in the same deck.
Settled on this and happy with it. Cut the devil. I liked it, but Id need to cut a conflag to fit it in the new set up. Cutting a land more and more seemed wrong, especially because I like going to 61 cards post board, and we still need the land drops 1 and 2, just 3 and more less so.
I dont fizzle anymore (grant it my average dredge is now 4 instead of 4.5ish. Not a numbers guy, this is just how I feel it.) Haunted dead feels better than devil because alot of times Im slower and the chump is pretty good, but its mostly for the discard. Sometimes it feels like you clog up on thugs and loams, and you need those in the yard to hit critical mass.
Sucks because it really feels like the ban drained me of 2 dredge, but also 2 extra card slots, but I got the consistency going again, and thats what I needed. No gimmicks. Just stream lined dredge, it all does something. left the cute stuff to the sideboard. Could probably cut an axe for decay or claim, but I'm pretty well known at this point for spreading my side thin to cover more bases and using a mix of all of em when siding.
the average dredging number its not relevant since you dont choose wich card to dredge at random, if you can dredge troll and loam the average its 4,5 but will choose to dredge troll way more than 50% of the time
its crazy that dredge might be a better deck now since there is a lot less hate, and the one that remains its generic graveyard hate, no more ravenous traps. although we might need more abrupt decays for those cages
Took my list out for one last Modern event, and the Troll carried the day. 3-0 versus Burn (2-0), Grixis Control (2-0), Lantern (2-1, even with two mull to 5's). Stock list with a sideboard of 2 Leyline of the Void, 2 Gnaw to the Bone, 2 Abrupt Decay, 2 Ancient Grudge, 2 Nature's Claim, 2 Lightning Axe, 3 Collected Brutality.
I brought in both Leyline's against Grixis, and saw both in my opening hand, which still had a land, faithless but no dredger, and kept- draw step/faithless pulled a dredger from my deck turn 1. I was discussing with the opponent afterwards if bringing in the Leyline was the right thing to do. Game 1 he'd delayed my win with snap/cryptic shenanigans and an early Tasigur. Do people think that was the right sideboard option? Or should I kept in cards to keep core the most intact?
Right but it matters early as sometimes the better dredgers get clogged in the hand and you have to dredge 3.
If you play 100 games with and 100 without troll, you can feel the loss.
Steam vents never hurt. It could be a mana confulance or something. Its just a safty vaulve. Wouldnt drop it though, the land count should be 20
I have the second mountain as that confluence. Would you say that having another fetchable is that important as to play it over the rainbow land?
Its pretty insignificant over all. Probably matters more if you have something like memories journey in the side vs rally. Its up to personal preference. I have a basic forest which most people dont do as an out to blood moon and RDW.
Played some more with my list. Its back to troll levels of constancy, but the opening hands are harder, and the first dredges are way more important, but I've managed I think to keep my speed and consistency, course its at the loss of flex spots. Deck feels tight now (as in, not much wiggle room to add or cut things)
Yes, definitely need the fetchables for the bloodghasts.
It seems we're cutting the Rally the peasants presumably because this is too win-More?
I like darkblast main... I'm thinking thugs as straight swap for GGT and having haunted dead with a sideboard of 2 lightning axe 2 collective brutality 1 gnaw to the bone 3 thought seize/duress 2 abrupt decay 2 ancient grudge 3 nature's claim.
So I'll simplify my thought process here, and take away all the unsuccessful attempts I had. Just so you all can follow the line of thinking in a clear step by step process. My build preban was this:
We need to replace the trolls, whose job was to dredge alot, and also beat cage and extraction. The former is most important because it deals with deck functionality, the second is back burner because it deals with winning more %, but you cant have the second without the first. The best answer was a 1 for 1 replacement of trolls to thugs.
This leaves us with a little catchup. We dont have enough % chance to chain dredges, and this is what we get power from. So we have 3 options, dig harder (mill), recycle fizzled dredges (discard) or add more dredge (redondancy) and a secret 4th option, a mix of them.
So the easiest option I found was trying to maximize on option 2 and 3 while keeping some of the utility. Darkblast can replace the shriekhorn. It fits the same curve, and does the same job as shriekhorn, which is spend 1 mana for milling myself, be it one less. But the upside here is it adds to my dredge redundancy count, and theoretically discards itself. Bonus points that I take it from my sideboard, allowing me to maintain "flex spots" Downside is it can only be used in creature matchups. But its a give and take deal, so Its the best I can do.
Next is I'll either need to add another dredge 3 card to finish my chain ability, or add a way to recycle the dredge on a fizzle. Realistically, Scourge Devil gave you yet another win condition, while having utility in recurring amalagamates. So, from what I see, haunted dead doesnt give you a win con as much, because its more defensive, but it still adds damage to the board, and does the recurring job, while playing a REALLY IMPORTANT ROLE in the early game of discarding on upkeep to set up loots and draw dredge. Devil is the right card to cut here because you cant kill a dredger, thats going backwards, or a land count, because you mess with consistency. So you are down to devil/rally or conflag, and you dont want to lose conflag, as that gives the deck its power.
Its really a few simple tweeks, but its deceptively simple. there was a lot of work and math that went into those choices. Overall I think its the right way to go. Mess with lands- open hands you cant get a loam= game loss from lack of recur/conflag. Mess with dredge count=Unable to chain dredges. Mess with creature core= worse dredge deck. Mess with Discard core= Unable to dredge engine rolling. So you're left with either cutting conflag counts down or cutting a rally devil back up angle. Its either one or the other.
Unless you opt to change the whole deck construction. Which I dont agree with. Its not broken. The end result is a slightly less consistant, more secepetable to hate version of dredge. But it feels like old dredge. No need to through the baby out with the bath water.
With a thug package and darkblast setup we may be able to play long games under a cage, or preemptively setup against relic/rip and answer leyline at a slower pace.
Mind you, i am ready to acept this may be too slow, but I would not mind play testing depending on the metas choice of graveyard hate. With big mana being a thing possibly, living end may uptick causing more voids to show up.
I'm thinking of ingot chewer, as was suggested a few pages back. It's efficient when drawn naturally and I'm less concerned with enchantments at the moment.
I like the caterpillar idea over claim in the sb,seems easier to play with thug like forward_engaged said.
I haven't picked a stable build yet but I've gone back to the original build mostly but I'm stuck on the bridge kick because of haunted dead and darkblast synergy.1/1 flyer plus zombie tokens AND dredge every turn once I hit three mana,loam refills the hand for more discards.I run 18 lands though,3 are dakmor.i cut a loam and a conflag as well to squeeze them in with another darkblast.
I want another haunted dead and one rally back as well, I will try 17 lands tmrw and only one conflag.
I don't crunch numbers though,my options are based solely on how its felt to me.Dredging is always the main goal and I feel like haunted dead and darkblast is a consistent way to do that.Bridge makes killing there own creatures necessary.
Isn't rec sage just as good then if not better? You don't have to have the 2g and it's a 2/2 rather than a 1/1. I get you can technically use caterpillar t2 but if you don't know they have the hate what are your chances of doing so? Also vs a leyline or rip you still keep rec sage where as you can't reuse the caterpillar.
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http://www.atlascollectables.com/updating-dredge-post-grave-troll-world-jeremy/
It's a decent read for anyone less familiar with the dredge deck trying to understand the impact of losing Grave-Troll.
However, where I begin to disagree is the proposed Shriekhorn solution. The article has made me consider 1-2 Shriekhorn as a potential solution to the loss of 6 dredged cards with the Thug-for-Troll swap, but replacing Insolent Neonate is not the correct decision. Also, 4 Loams is a lot. You should rarely need more than two in a game (three in decklist) even when going all-in on a Conflagrate plan, so if you're just looking for an additional Dredge 3, I'd say run more Darkblasts.
Modern:
Dredge | Restore Balance | Titanshift
My [360][Unpowered][Modern-Frame] Cube
The next mistake he makes is also one numbers cant see, but you can see in practice clearly. Which is discard makes dredge cards reusable, thus thug does more work incase of fizzles. Shriekhorn can dredge once if naturally drawn, and dredge cards are better in the yard.
This is where his article fails as it doesnt account for the existance of haunted dead.
But the first part as you said is good, for math. To me its clear, we add 4 thugs, then up our dredge by at least one dredge 3, darkblast or life from the loam. After that, another discard outlet from the grave is nessary, be it haunted dead or phantasmagorian. If you still have an issue, add another dredge 3 (at the cost of likely scourge. I think huanted recycle should be more than enough.)
Tempo is important, and the numbers he preposes works, but much later in the game. Getting it all going by turn 6 is far too late against most decks. Im going to run this:
2 Stomping Ground
1 Steam Vents
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Copperline Gorge
2 Mountain
2 Dakmor Salvage
2 Blood Crypt
4 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba
1 Haunted Dead
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Golgari Thug
1 Scourge Devil
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Cathartic Reunion
3 Life from the Loam
3 Conflagrate
4 Faithless Looting
Still dunno what side to use
either I'm miscounting or that's 61 cards... intentional?
GB Graveyard(Rip Copter)Modern:
Dredge RBGU (AND WE BACK)
Suicide BlooUR(WotC Why )Living End RBG
Bloo MoonUR
Legacy:
Aluren BGU
My vote is for the scourge. Other than that, our lists are identical except for the second mountain which I have as a mana confluence.
Also, I'm going to try some destructive revelrys in the board over a couple nature's claims. I've had this idea for a while, as the 6 point life difference seemed to be good even with the old lists. But now, it looks like it could matter even more. I'm not sure if we can afford to gift our opponents 4 life anymore, because that just slows down our kill even further. I'll test but I think the idea is sound.
GB Graveyard(Rip Copter)Modern:
Dredge RBGU (AND WE BACK)
Suicide BlooUR(WotC Why )Living End RBG
Bloo MoonUR
Legacy:
Aluren BGU
3 Spirebluff Canal
2 Copperline Gorge
1 Dakmor Salvage
1 Mountain
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Mana Confluence
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bloodghast
1 flex (3rd Conflagrate, Rally, Scourge Devils, Haunted Dead)
2 Shriekhorn
2 Conflagrate
3 Life from the Loam
1 Darkblast
4 Cathartic Reunion
4 Faithless Looting
4 Tome Scour
I think I would play Rally before the other cards in the flex slot because Haunted Dead can come post-sb in Anger match-ups. The third Conflagrate is something I side out often.
I am tempted to play 2-3 Ghost Quarter in the side to have some game against the (MANY MANY) Tron lists out there. Everyone decided to jump on the Tron bandwagon after people wrote that the bans and Fatal Push would help midrange, and I am tired of playing against Ugin, Relic, and Rest in Peace all in the same deck.
4 Bloodghast
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Narcomoeba
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Haunted Dead
4 Golgari Thug
// 1 Instant
1 Darkblast
// 20 Land
2 Blood Crypt
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Dakmor Salvage
2 Mountain
2 Stomping Ground
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest
1 Steam Vents
4 Copperline Gorge
3 Conflagrate
4 Faithless Looting
3 Life from the Loam
4 Cathartic Reunion
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Gnaw to the Bone
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Lightning Axe
2 Nature's Claim
// 2 Land
2 Bojuka Bog
// 4 Sorcery
2 Collective Brutality
2 Thoughtseize
Settled on this and happy with it. Cut the devil. I liked it, but Id need to cut a conflag to fit it in the new set up. Cutting a land more and more seemed wrong, especially because I like going to 61 cards post board, and we still need the land drops 1 and 2, just 3 and more less so.
I dont fizzle anymore (grant it my average dredge is now 4 instead of 4.5ish. Not a numbers guy, this is just how I feel it.) Haunted dead feels better than devil because alot of times Im slower and the chump is pretty good, but its mostly for the discard. Sometimes it feels like you clog up on thugs and loams, and you need those in the yard to hit critical mass.
Sucks because it really feels like the ban drained me of 2 dredge, but also 2 extra card slots, but I got the consistency going again, and thats what I needed. No gimmicks. Just stream lined dredge, it all does something. left the cute stuff to the sideboard. Could probably cut an axe for decay or claim, but I'm pretty well known at this point for spreading my side thin to cover more bases and using a mix of all of em when siding.
the average dredging number its not relevant since you dont choose wich card to dredge at random, if you can dredge troll and loam the average its 4,5 but will choose to dredge troll way more than 50% of the time
its crazy that dredge might be a better deck now since there is a lot less hate, and the one that remains its generic graveyard hate, no more ravenous traps. although we might need more abrupt decays for those cages
what do you think about dropping the steam vents?
I brought in both Leyline's against Grixis, and saw both in my opening hand, which still had a land, faithless but no dredger, and kept- draw step/faithless pulled a dredger from my deck turn 1. I was discussing with the opponent afterwards if bringing in the Leyline was the right thing to do. Game 1 he'd delayed my win with snap/cryptic shenanigans and an early Tasigur. Do people think that was the right sideboard option? Or should I kept in cards to keep core the most intact?
If you play 100 games with and 100 without troll, you can feel the loss.
Steam vents never hurt. It could be a mana confulance or something. Its just a safty vaulve. Wouldnt drop it though, the land count should be 20
I have the second mountain as that confluence. Would you say that having another fetchable is that important as to play it over the rainbow land?
GB Graveyard(Rip Copter)Modern:
Dredge RBGU (AND WE BACK)
Suicide BlooUR(WotC Why )Living End RBG
Bloo MoonUR
Legacy:
Aluren BGU
Its pretty insignificant over all. Probably matters more if you have something like memories journey in the side vs rally. Its up to personal preference. I have a basic forest which most people dont do as an out to blood moon and RDW.
So I'll simplify my thought process here, and take away all the unsuccessful attempts I had. Just so you all can follow the line of thinking in a clear step by step process. My build preban was this:
4 Bloodghast
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Narcomoeba
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Scourge Devil
4 Golgari Thug
// 1 Artifact
1 Shriekhorn
// 20 Land
2 Blood Crypt
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Dakmor Salvage
2 Mountain
2 Stomping Ground
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest
1 Steam Vents
4 Copperline Gorge
3 Conflagrate
4 Faithless Looting
3 Life from the Loam
4 Cathartic Reunion
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Gnaw to the Bone
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Lightning Axe
2 Nature's Claim
1 Darkblast
// 2 Land
2 Bojuka Bog
// 4 Sorcery
2 Collective Brutality
1 Thoughtseize
We need to replace the trolls, whose job was to dredge alot, and also beat cage and extraction. The former is most important because it deals with deck functionality, the second is back burner because it deals with winning more %, but you cant have the second without the first. The best answer was a 1 for 1 replacement of trolls to thugs.
This leaves us with a little catchup. We dont have enough % chance to chain dredges, and this is what we get power from. So we have 3 options, dig harder (mill), recycle fizzled dredges (discard) or add more dredge (redondancy) and a secret 4th option, a mix of them.
So the easiest option I found was trying to maximize on option 2 and 3 while keeping some of the utility. Darkblast can replace the shriekhorn. It fits the same curve, and does the same job as shriekhorn, which is spend 1 mana for milling myself, be it one less. But the upside here is it adds to my dredge redundancy count, and theoretically discards itself. Bonus points that I take it from my sideboard, allowing me to maintain "flex spots" Downside is it can only be used in creature matchups. But its a give and take deal, so Its the best I can do.
Next is I'll either need to add another dredge 3 card to finish my chain ability, or add a way to recycle the dredge on a fizzle. Realistically, Scourge Devil gave you yet another win condition, while having utility in recurring amalagamates. So, from what I see, haunted dead doesnt give you a win con as much, because its more defensive, but it still adds damage to the board, and does the recurring job, while playing a REALLY IMPORTANT ROLE in the early game of discarding on upkeep to set up loots and draw dredge. Devil is the right card to cut here because you cant kill a dredger, thats going backwards, or a land count, because you mess with consistency. So you are down to devil/rally or conflag, and you dont want to lose conflag, as that gives the deck its power.
so you end up with this now
4 Bloodghast
4 Insolent Neonate
4 Narcomoeba
4 Prized Amalgam
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Haunted Dead
4 Golgari Thug
// 1 Instant
1 Darkblast
// 20 Land
2 Blood Crypt
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Dakmor Salvage
2 Mountain
2 Stomping Ground
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest
1 Steam Vents
4 Copperline Gorge
3 Conflagrate
4 Faithless Looting
3 Life from the Loam
4 Cathartic Reunion
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Gnaw to the Bone
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Lightning Axe
2 Nature's Claim
// 2 Land
2 Bojuka Bog
// 4 Sorcery
2 Collective Brutality
2 Thoughtseize
Its really a few simple tweeks, but its deceptively simple. there was a lot of work and math that went into those choices. Overall I think its the right way to go. Mess with lands- open hands you cant get a loam= game loss from lack of recur/conflag. Mess with dredge count=Unable to chain dredges. Mess with creature core= worse dredge deck. Mess with Discard core= Unable to dredge engine rolling. So you're left with either cutting conflag counts down or cutting a rally devil back up angle. Its either one or the other.
Unless you opt to change the whole deck construction. Which I dont agree with. Its not broken. The end result is a slightly less consistant, more secepetable to hate version of dredge. But it feels like old dredge. No need to through the baby out with the bath water.
Caustic catepillar,
With a thug package and darkblast setup we may be able to play long games under a cage, or preemptively setup against relic/rip and answer leyline at a slower pace.
Mind you, i am ready to acept this may be too slow, but I would not mind play testing depending on the metas choice of graveyard hate. With big mana being a thing possibly, living end may uptick causing more voids to show up.
I haven't picked a stable build yet but I've gone back to the original build mostly but I'm stuck on the bridge kick because of haunted dead and darkblast synergy.1/1 flyer plus zombie tokens AND dredge every turn once I hit three mana,loam refills the hand for more discards.I run 18 lands though,3 are dakmor.i cut a loam and a conflag as well to squeeze them in with another darkblast.
I want another haunted dead and one rally back as well, I will try 17 lands tmrw and only one conflag.
I don't crunch numbers though,my options are based solely on how its felt to me.Dredging is always the main goal and I feel like haunted dead and darkblast is a consistent way to do that.Bridge makes killing there own creatures necessary.