The Jeskai lists are able to eschew Mana Leak because they have enough fetchlands to reliably use Logic Knot on T2.
To a degree, sure. But generally it's the same reason why they can play 4 cryptic commands and we can't - they are just a lot less afraid of t2 and t3 plays since Bolt and Helix deal with early creatures better than path and can also keep early walkers from their ultimate for a long time.
Yea, I wasn't trying to say either deck is better, or that they are essentially the same deck. Just trying to see if there is anything to be gleaned from the differences between the two, specifically in regards to Mana leak. I have always thought that Mana leak is a necessary evil in UW, but I think it's especially bad given the decks that have been doing well and against the decks that I suspect make up the meta that responds to Jeskai becoming more popular.
I'm not a fan of playing clique with 3 supreme verdicts, but maybe since you're playing 1, it's not going to be a non-combo much. I think i'd rather play nimble obstructionist, over both clique and disallow, and play another interactive card. Unfortunately I didn't find an image with all his lands, but I think the opportunity cost of playing a second hallowed fountain is so small that it's incorrect to not play it, as there will be times where you wish you had access to another fetchable UW dual.
But I do like tweaking decks, as the mtgo meta is super fast to adapt and make changes to decks. He's trying to progress the archetype while other people progress theirs.
But I feel like this deck wins enough games with the mana screw (seas + field of ruin), you should just keep those cards until there are too many turn 4 decks, and decks with more than 3 basics. There's a lot of tron land based decks online, and I like not always auto losing to it with control. And think twice is where you want to be if there are a lot of rock decks online, and that's not the case.
I'm thinking about making more tweaks to the deck too. I want to try main deck crucible and add a ghost quarter into the mana base. I'll probably flesh out the idea over the weekend, and look at other lists than main decked crucible. I'm just shocked at how many games I win by mana screwing people that I want keep trying it until it's not viable anymore. It's too bad standstill is not legal.
Looks like Nassif did it; won with a ham sandwich. 15 1-ofs in the main? That list is hot garbage, but Nassif is a hall of famer so it doesn't surprise me that he can win with a dumpster fire like that.
The most egregious thing to me is only 1 Search, but the wurmcoil looks really bad too. Aside from our own supreme verdict, what is killing wurmcoil? Terminate and Lilly? Thats good in like 1 matchup. There has to be way more things exiling Wurmcoil than killing it across match-ups, right?
If wurmcoil doesn't die, its a 6/6 lifelinking threat that can be cast easily off all the colorless lands/plains.
That being said, the main draw of wurmcoil to me as always been its synergy with academy ruins, but playing 1 wurmcoil 1 academy ruins doesn't seem like a good use of deck space.
If wurmcoil doesn't die, its a 6/6 lifelinking threat that can be cast easily off all the colorless lands/plains.
That being said, the main draw of wurmcoil to me as always been its synergy with academy ruins, but playing 1 wurmcoil 1 academy ruins doesn't seem like a good use of deck space.
'If it doesn't die' isn't a competitive floor - see Patrick Sumlivans's rant about the new Chupacabra for a hilarious and accurate representation there. 'if it doesn't die' you can win with a ham sandwich, which is what happened. At 6 Mana you can play other threats that have a greater probability to win you the game even if they do die/exile/leave the battlefield AND are much harder to kill/exile/leave the battlefield.
Granted the academy ruins + wurmcoil thing seems sweet. I've always liked the thought of playing only Snapcaster as creatures and running some number of haunted fengraf but I always feel like Tec edges/gq and now Field is a better call, similar issue to your wurmcoil.+ Academy problem I suppose.
I have been playing with Jeskai Control for about 5 years (having switched the version from Ajani + Keranos + Rev to Nahiris and now to Gearhulks) and last month decided to build myself an UW Control in MTGO. I have been playing it a lot and having a lot of fun with it.
I added Gideon of BFZ to the deck for testing. I wanted another fast and resilient Win Condition. He's been doing well for now. He also contributes to the hidden strategy of the deck to force our opponents to over commit to the board into Verdicts.
I don't think UW and Jeskai are the same. They have similarities, but Jeskai is faster and lighter, while UW is grindier and mightier. The deck I have been playing in MTGO is this:
I hate Mana Leak, so have been playing with none. Sometimes I feel bad about having the second Negate instead of a Leak, but more oftenly I found myself relieved that I had a Negate and not a Mana Leak so far.
Took UW for another spin yesterday at my LGS’s Modern store championship. I finally acquired a second Search for Azcanta, which came in for the second Jace. Other notable changes to my previous list were replacing a Wall with Runed Halo, and trying out a Remand (borderline blasphemous, but I’ve seen it in a few lists lately and always need to play a little spice) in place of my second Mana Leak.
Round 1 vs RG Ponza: Opponent won the die roll and did this: T1 Arbor Elf, T2 Stone Rain, T3 Mwonvuli Acid-Moss, T4 Stone Rain and Magus of the Moon, T5 Thragtusk. I scooped without playing a single spell. G2 wasn’t much better; I kept a 5-land opener that was resilient to land destruction, but not to Blood Moon, and he had the T2 Moon. Oof. On T3 I found a second Plains off the top that allowed me to resolve a Gideon, but he flooded the board with big goons and I quickly lost. Casting one spell in two games as a UW Control player was not the most auspicious start I’ve ever had.
Round 2 vs Heartless Mill: Opponent’s T1 Altar of the Brood gave me a vague idea that I was against some kind of infinite mill combo, although I’d never seen it played and wasn’t familiar with its mechanics. My answers lined up well: T3 D-Sphere for his Heartless Summoning, Cryptic for his Trinket Mage, T5 Gideon OTT into emblem, T6 Snap and Cryptic to start the beats. G2 played out like an entirely different matchup, with my Spreading Seas and Fields keeping him off black mana for quite some time. Once more, it was Gideon and Snapcaster that closed out the game, with an assist on the lethal turn from Colonnade.
Round 3 vs Taking Turns: These games were wild. I tapped out for a T2 Search, which allowed him to resolve Thing in the Ice. We played chicken for a while, resolving cantrips, and at the crucial moment I cast Cryptic to bounce Thing and counter a free turn spell, with Negate mana still open. My opponent then topdecked Temporal Mastery and cast it for its Miracle cost. I countered, but then my shields were down and he cast another free turn spell and started going off, with a cantrip into Exhaustion into another few turns and a flipped Thing. Awoken Horror swung twice on an open board before he fizzled, and I was able to stabilize with Azcanta into Path and then Gideon OTT with counter backup. Yet again, Gideon got me there.
Round 2 my opponent took a mull to 6, while I kept a strong 7. His start was a little halting, while I curved out nicely with T1 Serum, T2 Search, and T3 land and pass with Negate up in case of As Foretold or other shenanigans. My opponent missed his fourth land drop and passed, so I flashed in Clique on the end step, and saw a hand of Temporal Mastery, the six mana turn spell, and Gigadrowse. About to untap with a threat down and a Cryptic, a Negate, and a fourth land in my own hand, I felt confident in taking away the Gigadrowse, so I did...and off Clique’s ability he found another Mastery, which he cast for its Miracle cost and started going off. Had to laugh at that one. That sequence got him back into the game, but my progression was still too strong to handle. Clique and Snapcaster did the beating while I interacted with the stack and used Azcanta to stay ahead on resources.
Round 4 vs Infect: I felt that the first couple turns were about as good as it gets against Infect on the draw: opponent has no T1 play, while I lay a Colonnade; then he plays a Blighted Agent, which I name with T2 Runed Halo. So far so good, but he kept drawing gas and I eventually ran out of answers. There was also an incident in which I let him correct a misplay (he responded to my Field activation on his Nexus by casting Blossoming Defense without activating the land first). Later in this same game, I had a Path up and ready for his Elf. He swung, and after mo blocks he cast a kicked Vines of Vastwood. I said “yeah...hmmm”, while still thinking about what else he might have in hand, and about five seconds later said “I’ll respond.” He claimed it was too late, the spell had already resolved, and called the judge, who ruled in his favor. In all honesty the ruling was acceptable in a vacuum—I should have been clearer—but in light of a fact that I’d let him take back a misplay a couple minutes earlier it was quite distasteful.
Round 2 his three early threats were Glistener Elf and two Nexi, which I answered with Path and a pair of Fields. I Mana Leaked his fourth threat (Agent, I believe) and then slammed Gideon Jura, which closed out the game nice and quickly. Opponent muttered something about lucky draws. Round 3 I once more had an early Field for his Nexus and an early Path for his Elf. Some time in those early turns I found a Blessed Alliance off the top, and settled on a strategy of funneling him into attacking with a lone creature and dumping his hand for a one-shot kill. T5 I played a Wall and passed, then he untapped and laid down a Blighted Agent. I made a point of looking alarmed, checked my hand repeatedly, and at last let it resolve. Sure enough, next turn he tested the waters with a mainphase Might of Old Krosa. I let it resolve despite Cryptic in hand. He swung, and after no blocks were declared he dumped two more spells for what would have been lethal if not for the sack effect from Blessed Alliance, which was a nice blowout. He was pissed, and scooped to my next turn Gideon OTT.
Normally I don’t indulge in any gamesmanship like that, but if I’m honest, this opponent was a bit of a prick. Refused the handshake and GG at the end, and then went whining to the judge about how I tried to slime him. Lmao, some people!
Finished 3-1 in a four-way tie for second. The Ponza player who gave me the business in Round 1 ended up being the lone 4-0 and champion, so all in all I’ll call this another successful night with UW Control. The Second Search was great, Gideon OTT and Field of Ruin were my MVPs, and, in reference to all the discussion surrounding Mana Leak’s shortcomings, the card showed up huge for me last night, in situations where none of the alternatives would have bailed me out.
Hey UW Control people. I recently started helping people track their UW Control performance data, and figured that some of you might be interested in seeing some of it. You can see it here. There's a UW Control player who has started entering his gameplay data for automatic analysis. It tracks quite a bit, but one thing that I find most useful in doing this (I've been doing this with Lantern for quite some time) is how individual cards correlate to increased or decreased win percentages when they're in the opening hand. You'll see that there are currently only 41 games entered, though I should point out that individual card performance is weighted for sample size. And, of course, the more data that is entered, the more accurate it'll continue to become.
If you feel that you'd like to start tracking your own data, you could probably ask Jonathan Reed for access, or just make a copy of what he has so far and start entering your data.
As for what it seems to show so far, Path to Exile seems to be the top performer in the deck, by far. The next best nonland cards to have in the opener, apparently, are either sideboard cards or Detention Sphere. The worst cards seem to be Gideon of the Trials or Cryptic. I suppose it does make sense that there's no point in having Cryptic in the opener, since you will not be playing it until at least turn four. As for Gideon, it seems that playing it early presumably opens it up to removal. It seems that both of those cards would perform much better in the mid-to-late game.
Admittedly, I'm not a UW Control player, so I don't know how much of this is already known to all of you. But, figured that some of you might find this interesting, and would possibly be interested in working together to gather the data quicker for group analysis.
Played the modern challenge yesterday, got 27th (https://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/modern-challenge-2018-01-14 list there), going 5-3. Played vs burn 5 times, went 3-2 losing the dice roll every game. 2nd timely and 2nd dispel were great in that matchup but its still pretty coin tossy. Lost vs humans that drew 4 meddling mages game 3. Beat Tron and storm.
Small notes:
Tried 3 spreading seas 1 think twice because of how good they were for Nassif. Pretty impressed by the think twice but not sure if its worth the slot.
I hate surgical extraction. Nassif told me to play it over the third rest in peace, I still think 2 rips and 1 relic is better.
Elspeth in the board was awkward where I wanted a threat in the board but it seems so slow against things like Tron and Scapeshift.
Mana Leak still awful but still a necessary card to play. Going to be testing 2 logic knot 0 leaks this week in leagues.
I tried swapping the ghost quarter for a plains to be better vs the popular bloodmoon decks on mtgo. Cutting the 5th land killer means I've cut the crucible in the board.
Other than that, not much to report on. Dont think theres any cards from RIX that we want.
I am starting to think that with Azcanta, Elspeth is much more appealing than Rev. Hard to answer threat that kills people and works well with Runed Halo, because it's so hard to attack into with creatures - seems great!
The cards do totally different things. Perhaps Elspeth is worth a consideration, but Rev is instant speed, scales, and gains life. Elspeth is sorcery speed. If I were to play Elspeth, it'd be over a different weaker threat prolly.
I am starting to think that with Azcanta, Elspeth is much more appealing than Rev. Hard to answer threat that kills people and works well with Runed Halo, because it's so hard to attack into with creatures - seems great!
The cards do totally different things. Perhaps Elspeth is worth a consideration, but Rev is instant speed, scales, and gains life. Elspeth is sorcery speed. If I were to play Elspeth, it'd be over a different weaker threat prolly.
What exactly do you mean by weaker threat? I'd argue that Elspeth is probably the most powerful thing that actually sees plays in these decks.
I agree that Rev and Elspeth do different things, but essentially they are both meant to be game ending spells. Rev has the advantage of being snapped back later in the game because we often are forced to fire it off on 5 Mana, whereas elspeth is always on 6. I think what Borzi was trying to get at is that Azcanta sometimes flips around turn 5 and Elspeth on 5 seems really good, much better than Rev on 5 for x=3 I would have to imagine. Probably even better than Cryptic + 2cmx spell.
Yeap, that was pretty much it - Rev and Elspeth are both expensive spells that are used to turn the corner and close out the game. Elspeth is just a lot more mana efficient than Rev in my opinion, as it's probably the clunkiest spell that UW is trying to cast. It also does nothing on resolution except gain a few life - Elspeth can immediately stabilise the board and put the opponent on the back foot once she hits the board.
I agree Elspeth has more raw power than Rev, however, Instant vs Sorcery speed is a huge issue in my opinion. UW has very little Instant Speed action and powerful spells. In Control Mirrors or vs Combos I'd much rather have a less powerful, but more flexible and Instant Speed spell, than a clunky power house like Elspeth.
I feel like the deck needs something powerful on Instant Speed for those matchups. Against other Controls, I win many games by trying to force a Rev for +4 on their end step, my opponent is forced to counter it, than I just play a Gideon AOZ with a backup counter on my turn. Against combos I can hold on to a Cryptic Command, and if my opponent does nothing, I just Rev for a bunch, and play something cheaper on my turn, like Gideon OTT leaving mana for some counters. If I'd want to cut the Rev for a more direct threat, I'd probably go for Secure the Wastes, White Sun's Zenith or Gearhulk (probably making some changes in this case... I'd cut some Verdicts for Settle the Wreackages for example, and maybe add some Glimmer of Genius).
I do, however, agree that Elspeth is powerful enough to see main deck play. I just don't think I'd cut Rev for her. I'd probably cut the Gideon Jura. I like GJ for his sinergy with Gideon OTT and his power on Midrange/Aggro matches, but I could see Elspeth stealing his spot. She's much more powerful by herself and ends games much easier.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern RBWMardu Pyromancer R.I.P. BG The Rock
Commander W Nahiri, the Lithomancer
I play UW control since a few weeks but I follow this topic since longer and I don't remember to have seen a list with vehicle.
I want your opinions on 2 of them :
- Aethersphere Harvester : in reality I'm not a big fan of this card but with the add of glimmer of genius, the lifelink can help against very aggressives matchups like burn. On my mind burn is the worst matchup for us.
- heart of kiran : with all the walkers we play I think that it can be a good addition. There's only one problem : you need a walker or a clique to activate them and a clique is not the best solution because you just trade a 3 power for a 4 power wich is bad.
I also want to try Ojutai Exemplars wich I find quite interesting in this deck. Maybe I should try it with opt in favor of SV for the blink ability. What do you think?
And what do you think about azor's gateway instead of a second search for azcanta in a deck with Rev and secure the wastes? I'm pretty excited to test a deck like this!
P. S. Sorry for my bad English and that I didn't link the cards but I'm on my phone and I don't know how to do it from here!
I play UW control since a few weeks but I follow this topic since longer and I don't remember to have seen a list with vehicle.
I want your opinions on 2 of them :
- Aethersphere Harvester : in reality I'm not a big fan of this card but with the add of glimmer of genius, the lifelink can help against very aggressives matchups like burn. On my mind burn is the worst matchup for us.
- heart of kiran : with all the walkers we play I think that it can be a good addition. There's only one problem : you need a walker or a clique to activate them and a clique is not the best solution because you just trade a 3 power for a 4 power wich is bad.
I also want to try Ojutai Exemplars wich I find quite interesting in this deck. Maybe I should try it with opt in favor of SV for the blink ability. What do you think?
And what do you think about azor's gateway instead of a second search for azcanta in a deck with Rev and secure the wastes? I'm pretty excited to test a deck like this!
P. S. Sorry for my bad English and that I didn't link the cards but I'm on my phone and I don't know how to do it from here!
Hi man! Here are my thoughts about all these cards:
1 - Aethersphere Harvester: I can't see it playing in UW Control, because we usually don't have enough creatures to crew it. Unless you try a build with more creatures, can't see it working;
2 - Heart of Kiran: I think this one could work. It becomes better if you play a walker heavy list. The problem with it is you need to have a walker in play for it to work and generally, we tend to prefer cards that are good by themselves. But... I think it could be good if you play a high number of walkers;
3 - Ojutai Exemplars: I think this one doesn't work really well on UW because we have very little cheap and Instant spells. Even if you trade SV for Opts, I think you still wouldn't have enough fuel to make them work properly. UW usually plays 8 one drops (4 SV, 4 Paths). Most of our 2 drops are Sorcery Speed (Spreading Seas, SFA, Wall of Omens) and the ones that aren't, are counterspells, which can't be played anytime you want. Our 3 drops are Sorcery Speed as well (Detention Sphere, GotT, and Clique, which is a creature). Only on CMC 4 we will have some Instants again, and they aren't good enablers as well (Cryptic Commands, maybe Settle the Wreackage...). Ojutai Exemplars probably works better on Jeskai that have more Instant Speed and cheap spells. Unless you change a lot of things on your build, play a lot of cantrips for example, if possible Instants;
4 - Azor's Gateway: I think this card has a really powerful effect on the flipped side, but it is too hard to get there in Modern. You need to play it on turn 2, leave one mana open on each of your turns to make a loot effect, you have to pinch different mana costed cards and maybe by turn 7~8 you might have a chance to flip it and make a good use of it, if you happen to have a Rev or a Secure the Wastes in hand. Also, our deck usually has few 3 CMC and 5 CMC cards (usually 2 D. Spheres and 2 GotT, eventually a Clique on 3 and only one GJ on 5), which would make it much harder to pinch a card of each CMC. Also, it would be a terrible top deck later in the game.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern RBWMardu Pyromancer R.I.P. BG The Rock
Commander W Nahiri, the Lithomancer
I play UW control since a few weeks but I follow this topic since longer and I don't remember to have seen a list with vehicle.
I want your opinions on 2 of them :
- Aethersphere Harvester : in reality I'm not a big fan of this card but with the add of glimmer of genius, the lifelink can help against very aggressives matchups like burn. On my mind burn is the worst matchup for us.
- heart of kiran : with all the walkers we play I think that it can be a good addition. There's only one problem : you need a walker or a clique to activate them and a clique is not the best solution because you just trade a 3 power for a 4 power wich is bad.
I also want to try Ojutai Exemplars wich I find quite interesting in this deck. Maybe I should try it with opt in favor of SV for the blink ability. What do you think?
And what do you think about azor's gateway instead of a second search for azcanta in a deck with Rev and secure the wastes? I'm pretty excited to test a deck like this!
P. S. Sorry for my bad English and that I didn't link the cards but I'm on my phone and I don't know how to do it from here!
Hi man! Here are my thoughts about all these cards:
1 - Aethersphere Harvester: I can't see it playing in UW Control, because we usually don't have enough creatures to crew it. Unless you try a build with more creatures, can't see it working;
2 - Heart of Kiran: I think this one could work. It becomes better if you play a walker heavy list. The problem with it is you need to have a walker in play for it to work and generally, we tend to prefer cards that are good by themselves. But... I think it could be good if you play a high number of walkers;
3 - Ojutai Exemplars: I think this one doesn't work really well on UW because we have very little cheap and Instant spells. Even if you trade SV for Opts, I think you still wouldn't have enough fuel to make them work properly. UW usually plays 8 one drops (4 SV, 4 Paths). Most of our 2 drops are Sorcery Speed (Spreading Seas, SFA, Wall of Omens) and the ones that aren't, are counterspells, which can't be played anytime you want. Our 3 drops are Sorcery Speed as well (Detention Sphere, GotT, and Clique, which is a creature). Only on CMC 4 we will have some Instants again, and they aren't good enablers as well (Cryptic Commands, maybe Settle the Wreackage...). Ojutai Exemplars probably works better on Jeskai that have more Instant Speed and cheap spells. Unless you change a lot of things on your build, play a lot of cantrips for example, if possible Instants;
4 - Azor's Gateway: I think this card has a really powerful effect on the flipped side, but it is too hard to get there in Modern. You need to play it on turn 2, leave one mana open on each of your turns to make a loot effect, you have to pinch different mana costed cards and maybe by turn 7~8 you might have a chance to flip it and make a good use of it, if you happen to have a Rev or a Secure the Wastes in hand. Also, our deck usually has few 3 CMC and 5 CMC cards (usually 2 D. Spheres and 2 GotT, eventually a Clique on 3 and only one GJ on 5), which would make it much harder to pinch a card of each CMC. Also, it would be a terrible top deck later in the game.
Thank you for your advises I could try a list with heart of kiran. If I do so, I'll post the details and the results here!
Have you got more advise against burn? I don't know very well how to side against them. Do we have to keep spreading seas in? Their manabase feel pretty weak to play white and most of them also play green so I think that seas plus field of ruin can disturb their gameplan. I've seen some lists with leyelines in side. In my actual meta with a very high number of burn, thoughtseize/IoK, valakut, jeskai burn, I hesitate with that card. But I'm not sure that 2 leyeline will be enough. In my opinion the leyelines should be played in playset to be efficient and I think that we don't have enough space in side for that.
It depends on your list exactly, but spreading seas is not terribly great vs them, especially with a lot of the lists being just boros now.
Cryptic is also pretty weak, but you don't want to cut too many counterspells, so possibly cutting some cryptics and some seas may be correct.
2 leylines might be better than you're giving it credit. You aren't always going to find them in your opener, but against burn, we don't generally lose on turn 4 (though it happens), they generally end up top decking (or sometimes just several turns of draw-go) and them eventually finding the last couple points of damage.
With leyline, you have something to dig to, to ensure you don't just lose the game on turn 20 to enough bolts.
Anyone have any thoughts on this Thopter-sword take? The "(/X)" symbols denote what was cut from a stock list, just to get an idea what would need to be sacrificed to make something like this work.
The idea here is that Thirst fuels Azcanta to flip earlier, which is why Elspeth over Jura. Thirst also turns late game leaks or redundant Azcantas into real cards as well as generally mitigate screw/flood. The reason for only 4 cards in the side board is to give an idea how in postboard games we could easily audible out of thop/Sword plan since it only takes up 4 slots in the main (unless you count the 1-of Talisman as well).
I don't really think Spreading Seas are terrible against Burn. Almost all of their spells need specific coloured mana. The only spell I can remember they play that doesn't need specific mana in it's mana cost is Skullcrack. Lightning Helix, Boros Charm, Searing Blaze, Eidolon... all require only coloured mana. So Spreading Seas is really close to a 2 mana Stone Rain that cantrips against them.
Considering they play a really low number of lands, one or two Spreading Seas can really slow them down, or even shut them down completely. Yes, they play a lot of R costed spells. These you're most likely not preventing them from playing. But you might stop a bunch of their 2 mana costed spells, and limit the amount of 1 mana spells they play per turn. Cryptic Command is much better, for example, if you know they can't play 2 or 3 spells per turn.
They're not all that great though, because it is pretty hard to lose time focusing on their manabase while their burning your face and playing Eidolons. And if they flood a little, one or two Spreading Seas might not work. So... IMO, you should never cut some Spreading Seas. You cut all of them, or you cut none. Obviously depends on how many good sideboard options you have for this match-up.
To a degree, sure. But generally it's the same reason why they can play 4 cryptic commands and we can't - they are just a lot less afraid of t2 and t3 plays since Bolt and Helix deal with early creatures better than path and can also keep early walkers from their ultimate for a long time.
I'm not a fan of playing clique with 3 supreme verdicts, but maybe since you're playing 1, it's not going to be a non-combo much. I think i'd rather play nimble obstructionist, over both clique and disallow, and play another interactive card. Unfortunately I didn't find an image with all his lands, but I think the opportunity cost of playing a second hallowed fountain is so small that it's incorrect to not play it, as there will be times where you wish you had access to another fetchable UW dual.
But I do like tweaking decks, as the mtgo meta is super fast to adapt and make changes to decks. He's trying to progress the archetype while other people progress theirs.
But I feel like this deck wins enough games with the mana screw (seas + field of ruin), you should just keep those cards until there are too many turn 4 decks, and decks with more than 3 basics. There's a lot of tron land based decks online, and I like not always auto losing to it with control. And think twice is where you want to be if there are a lot of rock decks online, and that's not the case.
I'm thinking about making more tweaks to the deck too. I want to try main deck crucible and add a ghost quarter into the mana base. I'll probably flesh out the idea over the weekend, and look at other lists than main decked crucible. I'm just shocked at how many games I win by mana screwing people that I want keep trying it until it's not viable anymore. It's too bad standstill is not legal.
The most egregious thing to me is only 1 Search, but the wurmcoil looks really bad too. Aside from our own supreme verdict, what is killing wurmcoil? Terminate and Lilly? Thats good in like 1 matchup. There has to be way more things exiling Wurmcoil than killing it across match-ups, right?
That being said, the main draw of wurmcoil to me as always been its synergy with academy ruins, but playing 1 wurmcoil 1 academy ruins doesn't seem like a good use of deck space.
'If it doesn't die' isn't a competitive floor - see Patrick Sumlivans's rant about the new Chupacabra for a hilarious and accurate representation there. 'if it doesn't die' you can win with a ham sandwich, which is what happened. At 6 Mana you can play other threats that have a greater probability to win you the game even if they do die/exile/leave the battlefield AND are much harder to kill/exile/leave the battlefield.
Granted the academy ruins + wurmcoil thing seems sweet. I've always liked the thought of playing only Snapcaster as creatures and running some number of haunted fengraf but I always feel like Tec edges/gq and now Field is a better call, similar issue to your wurmcoil.+ Academy problem I suppose.
I have been playing with Jeskai Control for about 5 years (having switched the version from Ajani + Keranos + Rev to Nahiris and now to Gearhulks) and last month decided to build myself an UW Control in MTGO. I have been playing it a lot and having a lot of fun with it.
I added Gideon of BFZ to the deck for testing. I wanted another fast and resilient Win Condition. He's been doing well for now. He also contributes to the hidden strategy of the deck to force our opponents to over commit to the board into Verdicts.
I don't think UW and Jeskai are the same. They have similarities, but Jeskai is faster and lighter, while UW is grindier and mightier. The deck I have been playing in MTGO is this:
2x Snapcaster Mage
2x Wall of Omens
Planeswalkers
2x Gideon of the Trials
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1x Gideon Jura
1x Jace, Architect of Thought
Sorcerys
4x Serum Visions
3x Supreme Verdict
Instants
4x Path to Exile
2x Negate
1x Logic Knot
1x Sphinx's Revelation
3x Cryptic Command
2x Search for Azcanta
2x Detention Sphere
4x Spreading Seas
Lands
4x Celestial Colonnade
4x Flooded Strand
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Irrigated Farmland
1x Prairie Stream
2x Glacial Fortress
4x Field of Ruin
5x Island
3x Plains
2x Rest in Peace
2x Stony Silence
2x Blessed Alliance
1x Celestial Purge
1x Wrath of God
1x Aven Mindcensor
1x Timely Reinforcements
1x Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2x Dispel
1x Ceremonious Rejection
1x Summary Dismissal
I hate Mana Leak, so have been playing with none. Sometimes I feel bad about having the second Negate instead of a Leak, but more oftenly I found myself relieved that I had a Negate and not a Mana Leak so far.
RBW
Mardu PyromancerR.I.P.BG The Rock
Commander
W Nahiri, the Lithomancer
Round 1 vs RG Ponza: Opponent won the die roll and did this: T1 Arbor Elf, T2 Stone Rain, T3 Mwonvuli Acid-Moss, T4 Stone Rain and Magus of the Moon, T5 Thragtusk. I scooped without playing a single spell. G2 wasn’t much better; I kept a 5-land opener that was resilient to land destruction, but not to Blood Moon, and he had the T2 Moon. Oof. On T3 I found a second Plains off the top that allowed me to resolve a Gideon, but he flooded the board with big goons and I quickly lost. Casting one spell in two games as a UW Control player was not the most auspicious start I’ve ever had.
Round 2 vs Heartless Mill: Opponent’s T1 Altar of the Brood gave me a vague idea that I was against some kind of infinite mill combo, although I’d never seen it played and wasn’t familiar with its mechanics. My answers lined up well: T3 D-Sphere for his Heartless Summoning, Cryptic for his Trinket Mage, T5 Gideon OTT into emblem, T6 Snap and Cryptic to start the beats. G2 played out like an entirely different matchup, with my Spreading Seas and Fields keeping him off black mana for quite some time. Once more, it was Gideon and Snapcaster that closed out the game, with an assist on the lethal turn from Colonnade.
Round 3 vs Taking Turns: These games were wild. I tapped out for a T2 Search, which allowed him to resolve Thing in the Ice. We played chicken for a while, resolving cantrips, and at the crucial moment I cast Cryptic to bounce Thing and counter a free turn spell, with Negate mana still open. My opponent then topdecked Temporal Mastery and cast it for its Miracle cost. I countered, but then my shields were down and he cast another free turn spell and started going off, with a cantrip into Exhaustion into another few turns and a flipped Thing. Awoken Horror swung twice on an open board before he fizzled, and I was able to stabilize with Azcanta into Path and then Gideon OTT with counter backup. Yet again, Gideon got me there.
Round 2 my opponent took a mull to 6, while I kept a strong 7. His start was a little halting, while I curved out nicely with T1 Serum, T2 Search, and T3 land and pass with Negate up in case of As Foretold or other shenanigans. My opponent missed his fourth land drop and passed, so I flashed in Clique on the end step, and saw a hand of Temporal Mastery, the six mana turn spell, and Gigadrowse. About to untap with a threat down and a Cryptic, a Negate, and a fourth land in my own hand, I felt confident in taking away the Gigadrowse, so I did...and off Clique’s ability he found another Mastery, which he cast for its Miracle cost and started going off. Had to laugh at that one. That sequence got him back into the game, but my progression was still too strong to handle. Clique and Snapcaster did the beating while I interacted with the stack and used Azcanta to stay ahead on resources.
Round 4 vs Infect: I felt that the first couple turns were about as good as it gets against Infect on the draw: opponent has no T1 play, while I lay a Colonnade; then he plays a Blighted Agent, which I name with T2 Runed Halo. So far so good, but he kept drawing gas and I eventually ran out of answers. There was also an incident in which I let him correct a misplay (he responded to my Field activation on his Nexus by casting Blossoming Defense without activating the land first). Later in this same game, I had a Path up and ready for his Elf. He swung, and after mo blocks he cast a kicked Vines of Vastwood. I said “yeah...hmmm”, while still thinking about what else he might have in hand, and about five seconds later said “I’ll respond.” He claimed it was too late, the spell had already resolved, and called the judge, who ruled in his favor. In all honesty the ruling was acceptable in a vacuum—I should have been clearer—but in light of a fact that I’d let him take back a misplay a couple minutes earlier it was quite distasteful.
Round 2 his three early threats were Glistener Elf and two Nexi, which I answered with Path and a pair of Fields. I Mana Leaked his fourth threat (Agent, I believe) and then slammed Gideon Jura, which closed out the game nice and quickly. Opponent muttered something about lucky draws. Round 3 I once more had an early Field for his Nexus and an early Path for his Elf. Some time in those early turns I found a Blessed Alliance off the top, and settled on a strategy of funneling him into attacking with a lone creature and dumping his hand for a one-shot kill. T5 I played a Wall and passed, then he untapped and laid down a Blighted Agent. I made a point of looking alarmed, checked my hand repeatedly, and at last let it resolve. Sure enough, next turn he tested the waters with a mainphase Might of Old Krosa. I let it resolve despite Cryptic in hand. He swung, and after no blocks were declared he dumped two more spells for what would have been lethal if not for the sack effect from Blessed Alliance, which was a nice blowout. He was pissed, and scooped to my next turn Gideon OTT.
Normally I don’t indulge in any gamesmanship like that, but if I’m honest, this opponent was a bit of a prick. Refused the handshake and GG at the end, and then went whining to the judge about how I tried to slime him. Lmao, some people!
Finished 3-1 in a four-way tie for second. The Ponza player who gave me the business in Round 1 ended up being the lone 4-0 and champion, so all in all I’ll call this another successful night with UW Control. The Second Search was great, Gideon OTT and Field of Ruin were my MVPs, and, in reference to all the discussion surrounding Mana Leak’s shortcomings, the card showed up huge for me last night, in situations where none of the alternatives would have bailed me out.
If you feel that you'd like to start tracking your own data, you could probably ask Jonathan Reed for access, or just make a copy of what he has so far and start entering your data.
As for what it seems to show so far, Path to Exile seems to be the top performer in the deck, by far. The next best nonland cards to have in the opener, apparently, are either sideboard cards or Detention Sphere. The worst cards seem to be Gideon of the Trials or Cryptic. I suppose it does make sense that there's no point in having Cryptic in the opener, since you will not be playing it until at least turn four. As for Gideon, it seems that playing it early presumably opens it up to removal. It seems that both of those cards would perform much better in the mid-to-late game.
Admittedly, I'm not a UW Control player, so I don't know how much of this is already known to all of you. But, figured that some of you might find this interesting, and would possibly be interested in working together to gather the data quicker for group analysis.
Lantern Control
(with videos)
Uc Tron
Netdecking explained
Netdecking explained, Part 2
On speculators and counterfeits
On Interaction
Every single competitive deck in existence is designed to limit the opponent's ability to interact in a meaningful way.
Record number of exclamation points on SCG homepage: 71 (6 January, 2018)
"I don't want to believe, I want to know."
-Carl Sagan
Small notes:
Other than that, not much to report on. Dont think theres any cards from RIX that we want.
The cards do totally different things. Perhaps Elspeth is worth a consideration, but Rev is instant speed, scales, and gains life. Elspeth is sorcery speed. If I were to play Elspeth, it'd be over a different weaker threat prolly.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
What exactly do you mean by weaker threat? I'd argue that Elspeth is probably the most powerful thing that actually sees plays in these decks.
I agree that Rev and Elspeth do different things, but essentially they are both meant to be game ending spells. Rev has the advantage of being snapped back later in the game because we often are forced to fire it off on 5 Mana, whereas elspeth is always on 6. I think what Borzi was trying to get at is that Azcanta sometimes flips around turn 5 and Elspeth on 5 seems really good, much better than Rev on 5 for x=3 I would have to imagine. Probably even better than Cryptic + 2cmx spell.
Agreed. I was trying to say I might play Elspeth over a weaker threat like Gideon Jura for example, since he dies to removal.
UWB Esper Draw-Go Control (clicky)
UW Azorius Control (clicky)
Currently pursuing a degree in Biochemistry.
EDH: I've decided I don't like multiplayer formats.
I agree Elspeth has more raw power than Rev, however, Instant vs Sorcery speed is a huge issue in my opinion. UW has very little Instant Speed action and powerful spells. In Control Mirrors or vs Combos I'd much rather have a less powerful, but more flexible and Instant Speed spell, than a clunky power house like Elspeth.
I feel like the deck needs something powerful on Instant Speed for those matchups. Against other Controls, I win many games by trying to force a Rev for +4 on their end step, my opponent is forced to counter it, than I just play a Gideon AOZ with a backup counter on my turn. Against combos I can hold on to a Cryptic Command, and if my opponent does nothing, I just Rev for a bunch, and play something cheaper on my turn, like Gideon OTT leaving mana for some counters. If I'd want to cut the Rev for a more direct threat, I'd probably go for Secure the Wastes, White Sun's Zenith or Gearhulk (probably making some changes in this case... I'd cut some Verdicts for Settle the Wreackages for example, and maybe add some Glimmer of Genius).
I do, however, agree that Elspeth is powerful enough to see main deck play. I just don't think I'd cut Rev for her. I'd probably cut the Gideon Jura. I like GJ for his sinergy with Gideon OTT and his power on Midrange/Aggro matches, but I could see Elspeth stealing his spot. She's much more powerful by herself and ends games much easier.
RBW
Mardu PyromancerR.I.P.BG The Rock
Commander
W Nahiri, the Lithomancer
I want your opinions on 2 of them :
- Aethersphere Harvester : in reality I'm not a big fan of this card but with the add of glimmer of genius, the lifelink can help against very aggressives matchups like burn. On my mind burn is the worst matchup for us.
- heart of kiran : with all the walkers we play I think that it can be a good addition. There's only one problem : you need a walker or a clique to activate them and a clique is not the best solution because you just trade a 3 power for a 4 power wich is bad.
I also want to try Ojutai Exemplars wich I find quite interesting in this deck. Maybe I should try it with opt in favor of SV for the blink ability. What do you think?
And what do you think about azor's gateway instead of a second search for azcanta in a deck with Rev and secure the wastes? I'm pretty excited to test a deck like this!
P. S. Sorry for my bad English and that I didn't link the cards but I'm on my phone and I don't know how to do it from here!
Hi man! Here are my thoughts about all these cards:
1 - Aethersphere Harvester: I can't see it playing in UW Control, because we usually don't have enough creatures to crew it. Unless you try a build with more creatures, can't see it working;
2 - Heart of Kiran: I think this one could work. It becomes better if you play a walker heavy list. The problem with it is you need to have a walker in play for it to work and generally, we tend to prefer cards that are good by themselves. But... I think it could be good if you play a high number of walkers;
3 - Ojutai Exemplars: I think this one doesn't work really well on UW because we have very little cheap and Instant spells. Even if you trade SV for Opts, I think you still wouldn't have enough fuel to make them work properly. UW usually plays 8 one drops (4 SV, 4 Paths). Most of our 2 drops are Sorcery Speed (Spreading Seas, SFA, Wall of Omens) and the ones that aren't, are counterspells, which can't be played anytime you want. Our 3 drops are Sorcery Speed as well (Detention Sphere, GotT, and Clique, which is a creature). Only on CMC 4 we will have some Instants again, and they aren't good enablers as well (Cryptic Commands, maybe Settle the Wreackage...). Ojutai Exemplars probably works better on Jeskai that have more Instant Speed and cheap spells. Unless you change a lot of things on your build, play a lot of cantrips for example, if possible Instants;
4 - Azor's Gateway: I think this card has a really powerful effect on the flipped side, but it is too hard to get there in Modern. You need to play it on turn 2, leave one mana open on each of your turns to make a loot effect, you have to pinch different mana costed cards and maybe by turn 7~8 you might have a chance to flip it and make a good use of it, if you happen to have a Rev or a Secure the Wastes in hand. Also, our deck usually has few 3 CMC and 5 CMC cards (usually 2 D. Spheres and 2 GotT, eventually a Clique on 3 and only one GJ on 5), which would make it much harder to pinch a card of each CMC. Also, it would be a terrible top deck later in the game.
RBW
Mardu PyromancerR.I.P.BG The Rock
Commander
W Nahiri, the Lithomancer
Thank you for your advises I could try a list with heart of kiran. If I do so, I'll post the details and the results here!
Have you got more advise against burn? I don't know very well how to side against them. Do we have to keep spreading seas in? Their manabase feel pretty weak to play white and most of them also play green so I think that seas plus field of ruin can disturb their gameplan. I've seen some lists with leyelines in side. In my actual meta with a very high number of burn, thoughtseize/IoK, valakut, jeskai burn, I hesitate with that card. But I'm not sure that 2 leyeline will be enough. In my opinion the leyelines should be played in playset to be efficient and I think that we don't have enough space in side for that.
Cryptic is also pretty weak, but you don't want to cut too many counterspells, so possibly cutting some cryptics and some seas may be correct.
2 leylines might be better than you're giving it credit. You aren't always going to find them in your opener, but against burn, we don't generally lose on turn 4 (though it happens), they generally end up top decking (or sometimes just several turns of draw-go) and them eventually finding the last couple points of damage.
With leyline, you have something to dig to, to ensure you don't just lose the game on turn 20 to enough bolts.
2 Snapcaster
1 Secure the Wastes (/Rev)
Combo (4) (/4Seas)
2 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of the Meek
1 Whir of Invention
Planeswalkers (4)
2 Gideon of the Trials
1 Jace Architect of Thought
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion (/jura)
Selection (9)
4 Serum Visions
3 Azcanta (/4th 2cmc counter)
2 Thirst for Knowledge (/2 wall)
4 Path to Exile
3 Mana Leak
2 Detention Sphere
3 Supreme Verdict
3 Cryptic Command
Mana Sources (25)
1 Talisman/Signet (/5th tapland)
1 Academy Ruins (/5th colorless)
23 standard stuff
1 Jura
1 Jace AoT
1 Cliqu
1 Gideon AoZ
11 stuff'n'such
The idea here is that Thirst fuels Azcanta to flip earlier, which is why Elspeth over Jura. Thirst also turns late game leaks or redundant Azcantas into real cards as well as generally mitigate screw/flood. The reason for only 4 cards in the side board is to give an idea how in postboard games we could easily audible out of thop/Sword plan since it only takes up 4 slots in the main (unless you count the 1-of Talisman as well).
Considering they play a really low number of lands, one or two Spreading Seas can really slow them down, or even shut them down completely. Yes, they play a lot of R costed spells. These you're most likely not preventing them from playing. But you might stop a bunch of their 2 mana costed spells, and limit the amount of 1 mana spells they play per turn. Cryptic Command is much better, for example, if you know they can't play 2 or 3 spells per turn.
They're not all that great though, because it is pretty hard to lose time focusing on their manabase while their burning your face and playing Eidolons. And if they flood a little, one or two Spreading Seas might not work. So... IMO, you should never cut some Spreading Seas. You cut all of them, or you cut none. Obviously depends on how many good sideboard options you have for this match-up.
RBW
Mardu PyromancerR.I.P.BG The Rock
Commander
W Nahiri, the Lithomancer