Yeah that was pretty much what i was asking. The version i was referring was Titanshift. I hesitate when to counter Ramp spells and Tribe Elders. When i saw Gabriel Nassif play against Titanshift he countered Ramp spells and often he got his Seas on Forests or Duals just to screw him up. That's principally why i find myself hesitating so much.
Here is what I'm currently testing in my main 35. I'm back and forth on Walls but I think overall, the deck needs two regardless. Even when it's a dead card, it still draws you further into your library. Also been testing Secure the Wastes. I think it just might have a place in the main. It functions as both a win condition and an early interaction with the board. As for Supreme Will, the card has tested way above expectations. If you already tested with it and didn't like it or had bad results, I respect your opinion but if you haven't and think it has no place in the main, I would suggest testing before giving an opinion. I'm bullish on Supreme Will, which is why I main deck 2 copies. To me, it's better than Think twice. The PW package is something I feel needs a bit more diversity. Jace, Unraveler of Secrets has been really good so far in testing, especially against decks that grind out games and in the mirror. In a meta full of fast decks, he is subpar but against midrange and control, he's been really good.
I think Supreme Will is not unplayable garbo. I think it fits our curve quite nicely, and has a mode that makes it never a dead draw(+It digs pretty deep to find an immediate answer).
In a slow metagame it could be unplayable since the first mode dies rather quickly. But in a combo metagame, it could be good since it curves your counterspells from 2 to 4 and it has the added bonus of finding pressure or lock pieces. I tested it a couple of matches and found it ok, not bad but not particularly great.
Supreme Will as at least a 1-of is perfectly justifiable, especially if you consider it better than Think Twice, which I do hands down. It is the flexibility of Supreme Will that justifies it's use in the main. Stop looking at it as a 3 cmc mana leak, because it's not. It's about maximizing card functionality so U/W control decks must consider using cards that do that rather than using potentially dead cards. The only way I'd even consider running censor is if I'm keeping opponents off building up their mana base, which would require running 4 Tec Edges over Ghost Quarters and main boarding Crucible. Censor is too narrow for this deck since it wants to go long, which makes Censor bad. As for mana leaks, I do not like them for this deck BUT as I stated before, if you are main decking 4 Tec Edges and a Crucible package, then I could see more reason to main 2-3 mana leaks. I would still run 1 Supreme Will with that kind of build and maybe cut Sphinx Rev. from the main too.
So much disagreement! Can we just get counterspell back please? On the other hand did anyone notice that Dragonlord Ojutai list? It's a long shot, but you could play silumgar's scorn along with the dragon!
I find that running a full set of Tec edges makes mana leak better in the long game, especially when Crucible is on board as well. I think because we run Spreading Seas, Tec Edge may just be the best choice. I could see running 1 Ghost Quarter as well. 2 leaks, 1 negate, and 1 Supreme Will is where I'm leaning with 4 Tec Edges. 3 Cryptic Commands is the sweet spot and I'm currently testing Confirm Suspicions as a 1-of in the main over Sphinx Rev. I like the idea of having 8 counter spells total in main that also offer diversity at difference CMC.
To be honest, Joarthus is the only one that I follow with pleasure. The others often take lines which I don't like in the slightest.
Same with me, but he is currently jumping decks, last I saw he was playing Shift and then Taxes. He frequently switched decks for a week, claims they're insane, and then realizes that they are not as great as he gave them credit for. I think he'll be back on UW in a coupla weeks.
Re: Will
I went -2 Wall, +1 Will, +1 flex (currently Clique) and never looked back. Will is such a welcome topdeck in most matchups. I wouldn't cut Leak for it though; there are too many decks with big T3 plays, or T2 plays if you are on the play.
Question: how many fetches are you Knot players on? I'm at 6 but it feels high in aggressive matchups.
I decided to put Sphinx's Revelation in the side and main deck a copy of timely Reinforcements since I'm also playing a copy of Confirm Suspicions in the main as well. I really like Confirm Suspicions in this deck if you don't want to run 4 Cryptic Commands. Basically I'm replacing Sphinx Rev. with Confirm because I feel like Confirm for 5 is strictly better than a Sphinx Rev for 5 or 6 and it also gives us another unconditional counter spell along with the draw 3 potential. Where I make up the life gain in the main is with the copy of Timely. I know Jace, Unraveler of Secrets is a head scratcher but so far, he's been fantastic in the mirror and in grindier matchups. With that being said, He's also the first to board out against faster decks and combo but in the matches I've played him, he either delays and digs long enough for me to win or just outright wins with his ultimate. I've found that he's very hard to get off the board once he sticks. I'm also all in on 4 Tec edges. Keenan even mentions in his stream how Tec edge is so much better when you want it than Ghost Quarter is and I couldn't agree more plus Tec edge actually makes mana leak a little better in the late game.
So what are BAD match-ups for this deck? I am trying to attack my meta, and I think I will try Ad nauseam. There is minimal discard, a lot of jeskai, this, tron, and r/g valakut decks. I wanted to ask how the ad nauseam matchup is here before committing, and if you guys are crushing that combo, what is something you are 40% or under against?
Just got done wth a pptq, won't run through it all.
1-2 counters company
2-0 GB infect
2-1 grixis death shadow
2-1 abzan midrange
1-2 mirror
I do wish I had kept the Geist in the side. The third cryptic was correct, not sure about adding a 4th. 1 Jace I feel is not right. Disallow was pretty good for me. The mb negate was useful. Gideon trials was a beast. Big Gideon also helped greatly and I feel he needs to stay.
Dredge is a bad match up and it doesn't even have to be a tuned dredge deck either. Even casual dredge decks can be difficult.
Honestly, I don't like Sphinx Rev in the main anymore. It's basically a dead card until turn 6 or 7 if you want to start maximizing value and even at that point, you're not interacting with the board after casting it and at times, the game might be unwinnable even with the life gain/draw. It's really only a bomb when you can gain 5 or more and draw 5 or more and that doesn't happen often enough. I really think having more spells within the 1-3 CMC range is the way to go and anything 4 and up should directly interact with the board state in some way, even if it's just countering (why I run 1 Confirm Suspicions). If we weren't tec edging then I could see more value with Rev. but I still think it has a place in the 75. Anything less than 7 main deck counter spells is asking for trouble. I currently run 8.
Thanks guys. If I were only concerned with beating uw control, then I would play dredge for sure. I think I will stick with ad nauseam, though, because I have to beat valakut decks as well.
Six rounds plus Top 8. Finished 3-3, pretty bad-medium but there's more to it.
R1: Storm(L 0-2)
I'm not going into specifics here, G1 he had Blood Moon MB which i didn't expect at all and he screwed me. G2 i incorrectly let resolve a Baral instead of Mana Leaking it, and went for the Ritual, he had Dispel backup, i take that loss, i play horribly. However, the matchup seems poor since our clocks aren't super fast and we have to draw a lot of SB to stand a chance.
R2: Affinity(L 1-2)
G1 he didn't start super fast but when you don't find Verdict it gets hard, and that's a problem i have a lot with UW. Verdict is a huge reason to play this deck, and not finding it is backbreaking agaisnt Aggro. Couldn't hold his swarm and died.
G2 he kept a 1 lander which stayed that way for a few Turns and i manage to capitalize with Vendilion Clique and Cryptic Command on full tempo mode bouncing his land drop, he conceded before dying.
G3 i kept what i thought it was an okay hand but in retrospective, super clunky. Seas,Wall and Mana Leaks don't win games against Affinity. He T3'd me lol. I died with Supreme in hand and his hand was T1 Overseer T2 Plating with me durdling like a pro. GG good beats.
R3: WB Tokens( W 2-0)
They guy didn't have a lot of idea what was going on, and eventhough his deck was complete with all the WB stapes like Ally of Zendikar, Bitterblosom and such, he had it borrowed and didn't had a clue what to do, super easy 2-0.
R4: UB Mill(W 2-0)
Friend of mine, he plays no Bridge but Snapcasters and Surgicals. I demolished him via counters and PW beats.
R5: Grixis Shadow (L 1-2)
Another acquaintance of mine. All games he had average hands. GDS average hands are ridiculous. Multiple discard spells, and crazy top decks. The games i lost i didn't find enough Verdicts(I think i resolved 1 in 3 matches). The matchup felt good but closer to 50/50 than i expected. Rest In Peace + Colonnade wrecked him G2. All my hands were functional and good. I was pretty bummed to lose this match since i really wanted to beat him. I had a lot of confidence in the DS matchup but they are still the best deck in the format. Respect that deck, always.
R6: Mono W Sisters (W 2-0)
Verdict and Jace where powerhouses. This matchups are practically a bye to be honest.
Conclusion: I won my games against Non-Tiers. Lost my games against the Tiers. I have to say that all my games against the Tiers where either close or i lost because missplays/bad keeps. The deck felt good and was super fun to play. Little Gideon was above average. Jace and D-Sphere too. Pretty much all cards felt good and in place, except Spreading Seas. It felt worse than medium in ALL matches. I know i didn't play in the All Star Seas matchups, but even against GDS, it was practically a 1U: Draw a Card-Sorcery. Against Affinity it was too slow. I guess against Eldrazi and Midrange it's that good, but it was the first time i felt it BAD. Going forward i'm going to test something like this and see how i fare without the claimed Seas. https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/707991#paper
I fear not hitting my land drops without the critical mass of cyclers, but this midrangey versions feels good if you want no Spreading Seas.
4 Path to exile
4 Serum Visions
4 Spreading Seas
2 Wall of Omens
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Remand
1 Negate
1 Logic Knot
1 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Supreme Will
2 Detention Sphere
3 Cryptic Command
3 Supreme Verdict
PW package
2 Gideon of the Trials
1 Gideon Jura
1 Jace, Architect of thought
1 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
In a slow metagame it could be unplayable since the first mode dies rather quickly. But in a combo metagame, it could be good since it curves your counterspells from 2 to 4 and it has the added bonus of finding pressure or lock pieces. I tested it a couple of matches and found it ok, not bad but not particularly great.
Same with me, but he is currently jumping decks, last I saw he was playing Shift and then Taxes. He frequently switched decks for a week, claims they're insane, and then realizes that they are not as great as he gave them credit for. I think he'll be back on UW in a coupla weeks.
UWR Control
BR Hollow One
I went -2 Wall, +1 Will, +1 flex (currently Clique) and never looked back. Will is such a welcome topdeck in most matchups. I wouldn't cut Leak for it though; there are too many decks with big T3 plays, or T2 plays if you are on the play.
Question: how many fetches are you Knot players on? I'm at 6 but it feels high in aggressive matchups.
3 Celestial Colonnade
4 Flooded Strand
3 Glacial Fortress
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Irrigated Farmland
1 Temple of Enlightenment
5 Island
3 Plains
4 Tectonic Edge
Spells-26
4 Path to Exile
4 Serum Visions
4 Spreading Seas
3 Supreme Verdict
3 Cryptic Command
2 Detention Sphere
1 Supreme Will
2 mana leak
1 Negate
1 Confirm Suspicions
1 Timely Reinforcements
2 Wall of Omens
2 Snapcaster Mage
Planeswalkers-5
2 Gideon of the Trials
1 Gideon Jura
1 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Jace, Unraveler of Secrets
2 Dispel
1 Negate
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Stony Silence
2 Rest in Peace
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Condemn
1 Rule of Law
1 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Vendilion Clique
I decided to put Sphinx's Revelation in the side and main deck a copy of timely Reinforcements since I'm also playing a copy of Confirm Suspicions in the main as well. I really like Confirm Suspicions in this deck if you don't want to run 4 Cryptic Commands. Basically I'm replacing Sphinx Rev. with Confirm because I feel like Confirm for 5 is strictly better than a Sphinx Rev for 5 or 6 and it also gives us another unconditional counter spell along with the draw 3 potential. Where I make up the life gain in the main is with the copy of Timely. I know Jace, Unraveler of Secrets is a head scratcher but so far, he's been fantastic in the mirror and in grindier matchups. With that being said, He's also the first to board out against faster decks and combo but in the matches I've played him, he either delays and digs long enough for me to win or just outright wins with his ultimate. I've found that he's very hard to get off the board once he sticks. I'm also all in on 4 Tec edges. Keenan even mentions in his stream how Tec edge is so much better when you want it than Ghost Quarter is and I couldn't agree more plus Tec edge actually makes mana leak a little better in the late game.
Thanks.
1-2 counters company
2-0 GB infect
2-1 grixis death shadow
2-1 abzan midrange
1-2 mirror
I do wish I had kept the Geist in the side. The third cryptic was correct, not sure about adding a 4th. 1 Jace I feel is not right. Disallow was pretty good for me. The mb negate was useful. Gideon trials was a beast. Big Gideon also helped greatly and I feel he needs to stay.
1 negate
1 Jace, architect of thought
2 detention sphere
1 Gideon Jura
1 disallow
1 sphinx's revelation
1 think twice
2 wall of omen
4 path to exile
2 Gideon of the trials
3 mana leak
3 cryptic command
4 spreading seas
3 supreme verdict
4 serum visions
2 snapcaster mage
3 celestial colonnade
1 temple of enlightenment
3 tectonic edge
2 hallowed fountain
3 plains
3 glacial fortress
3 island
1 prairie stream
1 ghost quarter
1 irrigated farmland
4 flooded strand
Sb:
1 celestial purge
1 disenchant
1 surgical extraction
1 dispel
1 eidolon of rhetoric
2 ceremonious rejection
1 Rest In Peace
2 stony silence
1 grafdigger's cage
1 timely reinforcements
1 condemn
1 supreme verdict
1 vendilion clique
Honestly, I don't like Sphinx Rev in the main anymore. It's basically a dead card until turn 6 or 7 if you want to start maximizing value and even at that point, you're not interacting with the board after casting it and at times, the game might be unwinnable even with the life gain/draw. It's really only a bomb when you can gain 5 or more and draw 5 or more and that doesn't happen often enough. I really think having more spells within the 1-3 CMC range is the way to go and anything 4 and up should directly interact with the board state in some way, even if it's just countering (why I run 1 Confirm Suspicions). If we weren't tec edging then I could see more value with Rev. but I still think it has a place in the 75. Anything less than 7 main deck counter spells is asking for trouble. I currently run 8.
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
2 Wall of Omens
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage
// 6 Enchantment
2 Detention Sphere
4 Spreading Seas
// 12 Instant
2 Cryptic Command
3 Mana Leak
1 Negate
4 Path to Exile
1 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Think Twice
// 25 Land
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Flooded Strand
2 Ghost Quarter
3 Glacial Fortress
1 Hallowed Fountain
5 Island
1 Mystic Gate
2 Plains
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Temple of Enlightenment
1 Gideon Jura
2 Gideon of the Trials
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
// 7 Sorcery
4 Serum Visions
3 Supreme Verdict
Six rounds plus Top 8. Finished 3-3, pretty bad-medium but there's more to it.
R1: Storm(L 0-2)
I'm not going into specifics here, G1 he had Blood Moon MB which i didn't expect at all and he screwed me. G2 i incorrectly let resolve a Baral instead of Mana Leaking it, and went for the Ritual, he had Dispel backup, i take that loss, i play horribly. However, the matchup seems poor since our clocks aren't super fast and we have to draw a lot of SB to stand a chance.
R2: Affinity(L 1-2)
G1 he didn't start super fast but when you don't find Verdict it gets hard, and that's a problem i have a lot with UW. Verdict is a huge reason to play this deck, and not finding it is backbreaking agaisnt Aggro. Couldn't hold his swarm and died.
G2 he kept a 1 lander which stayed that way for a few Turns and i manage to capitalize with Vendilion Clique and Cryptic Command on full tempo mode bouncing his land drop, he conceded before dying.
G3 i kept what i thought it was an okay hand but in retrospective, super clunky. Seas,Wall and Mana Leaks don't win games against Affinity. He T3'd me lol. I died with Supreme in hand and his hand was T1 Overseer T2 Plating with me durdling like a pro. GG good beats.
R3: WB Tokens( W 2-0)
They guy didn't have a lot of idea what was going on, and eventhough his deck was complete with all the WB stapes like Ally of Zendikar, Bitterblosom and such, he had it borrowed and didn't had a clue what to do, super easy 2-0.
R4: UB Mill(W 2-0)
Friend of mine, he plays no Bridge but Snapcasters and Surgicals. I demolished him via counters and PW beats.
R5: Grixis Shadow (L 1-2)
Another acquaintance of mine. All games he had average hands. GDS average hands are ridiculous. Multiple discard spells, and crazy top decks. The games i lost i didn't find enough Verdicts(I think i resolved 1 in 3 matches). The matchup felt good but closer to 50/50 than i expected. Rest In Peace + Colonnade wrecked him G2. All my hands were functional and good. I was pretty bummed to lose this match since i really wanted to beat him. I had a lot of confidence in the DS matchup but they are still the best deck in the format. Respect that deck, always.
R6: Mono W Sisters (W 2-0)
Verdict and Jace where powerhouses. This matchups are practically a bye to be honest.
Conclusion: I won my games against Non-Tiers. Lost my games against the Tiers. I have to say that all my games against the Tiers where either close or i lost because missplays/bad keeps. The deck felt good and was super fun to play. Little Gideon was above average. Jace and D-Sphere too. Pretty much all cards felt good and in place, except Spreading Seas. It felt worse than medium in ALL matches. I know i didn't play in the All Star Seas matchups, but even against GDS, it was practically a 1U: Draw a Card-Sorcery. Against Affinity it was too slow. I guess against Eldrazi and Midrange it's that good, but it was the first time i felt it BAD. Going forward i'm going to test something like this and see how i fare without the claimed Seas.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/707991#paper
I fear not hitting my land drops without the critical mass of cyclers, but this midrangey versions feels good if you want no Spreading Seas.