Leak vs. Knot
I'm on 2 Leak and 1 Knot currently. I think Leak is mostly fine, even though it has anti-synergy with Path and even though it becomes dead against some matchups. Even in those matchups, it becomes a Negate in some of the stack wars when opponents are too deep into their mana. I also don't want to invest too heavily in the UU Knot on our manabase; there are lots of Quarter/Edge/Plains openings where you can't cast it T2. Same with fetchless/no-SV openers where Knot isn't live on T2.
Temple of Enlightenment
I like the card a lot. It's a solid land topdeck later and a great T1 play if you don't have SV and don't need to Path. I would never cut the singleton.
Finishers
Like some other posters here, I've struggled in games where I can't turn the corner quickly and take a proactive Plan B win. Grixis can do this with Angler/Tasigur/burn. Jeskai does it with Bolt/Snap/Bolt. We don't really have those lines and the best way to go proactive is often just Snapcaster beats or Gideon of the Trials. Unfortunately, Snapcaster is super slow and Gideon gets stonewalled/can't protect you while also beating down. Colonnade can't win until much later. Nor can a heavy-hitter like Gideon Jura or Elspeth.
For time-honored win conditions, we have Clique, Geist, and Queller. I'm partial to Clique because it fits our interactive gameplan, flies, and hits relatively hard. Clique also gives us information, which Queller, another interactive card, does not. More "out there" options include Myth Realized, Glory-Bound Initiate (I enjoyed this card in Esper), and that new Nimble Obstructionist thing.
Not sure if these necessarily improve the strategy. That said, I think the marginal benefit of having the option to win faster, plus the benefit of interaction if you go with Queller/Clique, outweigh the marginal costs of opening 2 slots. I'm already about to cut the underperforming Wall of Omens and would love a replacement.
Speaking of which...
Wall of Omens
I have not been loving this card. I generally want all my cards to have flash (Snapcaster + instants) or to have an immediate on-board impact (Verdict, Seas, Sphere, planeswalkers, etc.). Wall doesn't do either. It's only decent against a small subset of landlocked aggressive plays, and against those decks, I almost always prefer to keep up countermagic or removal than the Wall. Most of the aggressive decks these days either go too wide for Wall to matter or fly over it entirely. The only place it does a bit better is against Burn if you're on the play, but even then this can backfire with Searing Blaze. Not saying I've never found Wall useful; I actually really like Wall + Gideon lines against top-tier E-Tron. I just think we can do better in that slot. What thoughts do you all have on Wall?
I always liked Walls playing control even in Jeskai. They stop aggro very good, Elves, Burn, Goblins,Eldrazi Tron(Matter reshaper is a pain and wall helps but bant play Hierarch so it's worse there). It blocks the Sakura tribe elder which puts us in combo range.
It completely sucks against spell based combo like Storm and Nauseam or KCI but you can't be well poised in MB against everything.
Leak vs. Knot
I'm on 2 Leak and 1 Knot currently. I think Leak is mostly fine, even though it has anti-synergy with Path and even though it becomes dead against some matchups. Even in those matchups, it becomes a Negate in some of the stack wars when opponents are too deep into their mana. I also don't want to invest too heavily in the UU Knot on our manabase; there are lots of Quarter/Edge/Plains openings where you can't cast it T2. Same with fetchless/no-SV openers where Knot isn't live on T2.
Okay. First off, I am on 2 Knot and 1 Leak, and it's been alright. I've been testing a Supreme Will in the place of the Leak, and it's been performing fine. Not above average, but not terrible. The only prom Ken I have with multiple Leak is just how they flat-out aren't relevant in so many matchups (E-Tron, Tron, Mirror), and that as a control deck, we want to go lategame and outvalue our opponents. In the lategame, Leak is sub-par.
I'd also appreciate seeing your list if you don't mind.
I've updated my list and tuned it to my meta : Affinity, Burn, Storm, U-Tron as well as Eldrazi and Taxes and Soul Sisters are prevalent. Some Collected Company also, so here's my take
Comments are welcomed and I'll look forward to contribute to the thread with reports and such. I'm still debating between :
1) 2 or 3 Snapcaster Mage?
2) 3 or 4 Cryptic Command?
I've updated my list and tuned it to my meta : Affinity, Burn, Storm, U-Tron as well as Eldrazi and Taxes and Soul Sisters are prevalent. Some Collected Company also
Tom, Storm is a tough matchup. You want to board your Dispels and since you don't have more Negates, the Spell Quellers (they don't play removal). But even if you do that it's just difficult because they can threaten to go off turn after turn.
For the rest of the matchups it seems like you want Verdicts 3 and 4? In matchups that are about speed (Burn, Affinity, Storm), I take out Jace, Elspeth for more interaction. You just want to lower your curve. See Bennyhillz' sideboard guide. I don't love 2x mainboard Condemn, I think 1 Gideon of the Trials and 3rd Supreme Verdict would be stronger mainboard. One other thing about the fast matchups is that Gideon of the Trials does a lot of work...every point of loyalty is a point of virtual lifegain, much more if you have blockers out, and if you happen to stabilize he's a fast clock. If Burn or Affinity only have a single profitable creature down, he can just lock it down repeatedly. Little Gideon is just so key in these kinds of matchups I could see playing both. I like 3rd Cryptic because the card is so strong but not as big of a fan of the 3rd Snapcaster (2/1 body not particularly relevant, our spells can be expensive to flashback, nobo with Verdict, easily hated by opp. graveyard hate).
And if your meta includes Soul Sister and Eldrazi and Taxes you will want all 4 Verdicts, at least in the side.
I almost always fetch for the Hallowed Fountain tapped, sometimes I wonder if I should be getting the irrigated farmland in this case so that if I draw the fountain and absolutely need it untapped I can shock. I'm not super convinced on the Temple of Enlightenment It's been fine so far, but I'm considering just straight cutting it and going with 25 lands.
It's tough, if you have 4 lands in hand that come in mostly untapped, then I value the potential to cycle Irrigated Farmland. If you're short on lands, yeah, keeping your shockland in the deck so you can draw it makes a lot of sense.
So far, I like 25 lands with 4 cantrips and a ton of scrying. I would sooner cut Glacial Fortress 2/3 Island #5 then the first Temple, though.
I am a huge fan of -1 Jace for +1 Elspeth, as I've said above.
I don't quite understand why many of you are cutting CA engines for anything else. There aren't already many card advantage spells in the sixty, and Jace AOT it's one of the few ways we can go over the opponent, thanks to its mini fact or fictions. Then, people also cut Think Twice and/or Glimmer of Genious, and go down to two Cryptic Command.
What am I missing? The mirror match - expecially - seems awful for those lists.
I would not cut CA spells, but Wall isn't CA. It's a two-mana, sorcery-speed Think Twice. It's dead in a bunch of matchups, and not even that great in the matchups where it's supposed to be live. Wall at its best is still only okay (e.g. T2 Wall into T3 Gideon into T4 Verdict against aggro), and wall at its worst is really bad. Contrast with Seas: it does something decent in basically every matchup, and when it's good, it's a knockout.
I'd consider Glimmer of Genius, Think Twice, Clique, or Queller in that slot instead. Basically, cards that either give actual or virtual CA and are live in more matchups.
I concurr with Rabbit. Cutting out all that CA will specially make the deck clunky. I have found that Jace is one of the strongest cards to have around, specially put into play after a sweeper.
Wall of Omens mostly depends on the meta. Yesterday he saved me from numerous finks attacks.
Thanks for the detailed answer ! I'm really trying to get a good matchup against Storm on game 1 and Affinity as well. I like Cryptic very much, so I'll probably go 2 Snapcaster Mage and 4 Cryptic Command and 3 sweepers in the main.
Leak vs. Knot
I'm on 2 Leak and 1 Knot currently. I think Leak is mostly fine, even though it has anti-synergy with Path and even though it becomes dead against some matchups. Even in those matchups, it becomes a Negate in some of the stack wars when opponents are too deep into their mana. I also don't want to invest too heavily in the UU Knot on our manabase; there are lots of Quarter/Edge/Plains openings where you can't cast it T2. Same with fetchless/no-SV openers where Knot isn't live on T2.
Okay. First off, I am on 2 Knot and 1 Leak, and it's been alright. I've been testing a Supreme Will in the place of the Leak, and it's been performing fine. Not above average, but not terrible. The only prom Ken I have with multiple Leak is just how they flat-out aren't relevant in so many matchups (E-Tron, Tron, Mirror), and that as a control deck, we want to go lategame and outvalue our opponents. In the lategame, Leak is sub-par.
I'd also appreciate seeing your list if you don't mind.
Leak seems to work fine for me going late against Tron variants. Granted that I play 4 Tec Edge rather than the split of 2 Edge 2 Quarter that others are playing (which I don't really get). Keeping them off Tron (and/or multiple temples) is trivial generally, and the spells that matter cost 7+. Combined with the fact that Chalice usually comes down on 1, blanking Path, or paths get sided out - them getting to 10+ Mana before I've got control of the game just hasn't been an issue.
I'm also not sure why you think Leak is bad in the mirror. I find this to be one of the few matchups where leak is relevant even when my opponent has 9+ lands. This is because the games tend to revolve around Mana advantage. If your opponent knows you are on Mana leak, you essentially gained 3 land drops if they want to play around it - which is often incorrect, btw. Sometimes it's better to force the counter-magic out of your opponents hand. But having Mana leak will sometimes lead your opponent to making the incorrect decision of waiting to play around it, essentially giving you time to sculpt your game plan.
Have anyone tried Nimble Obstructionist? It seems sweet to me but I didn't have the time to test.
I was just about to post this. I'm experimenting with 2 right now. I'm running a shadow of doubt, 4 spreading seas, and 3 ghost quarters, so I wanted 2 to stick with a mana denial subtheme. It seems like it's a decent card (although it would have been so much better if it stifled on ETB or cycle). I think 1 is probably a better number since it's a gotcha type card. I have managed to stifle a storm trigger which felt great as well as an expedition map. I'm not sure how good it will be in the long run, but it's worth trying now.
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Modern: UWR Breach, UWB Esper control
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
As a note on Obstructionist, you can use the stifle effect on storm triggers, so it could be an alternative to Rule of Law or Eidolon of Rhetoric. As an added plus, Obstructionist can't be countered or bounced, and it could in theory also come in vs decks where we just want another tempo flyer.
IMO, obstructionist is pretty weak in decks that have access to white (resto, queller, mindcensor, etc, for tempo flash-fliers are all significantly better), but for mono u, u/r, u/g, etc, it could see some play.
That being said, its likely better in delver like strategies than in actual control.
As a note on Obstructionist, you can use the stifle effect on storm triggers, so it could be an alternative to Rule of Law or Eidolon of Rhetoric. As an added plus, Obstructionist can't be countered or bounced, and it could in theory also come in vs decks where we just want another tempo flyer.
In addition to that, it stops Planeswalkers Ultimate or against PW relevant ability when needed...
I'm just not too sure if it stops Ulamog/ Emrakul "When you cast" effect as well, but I'm sure it stops TKS, Vendilion Clique, Primeval Titan, Archbound Ravager (Sac Activation), Kitchen Finks and of course fetch lands...
I think it is not so good for a Stifle card to be at 3cost, but the upside proactive turn into a 3/1 flyer or draw a card while stifling is sweet...
Obstructionist seems pretty much unplayable - no amazing trigger abilities to counter in modern, the most common use is fetchlands, but three mana is too much to just kill a land (especially since most players fetch end of turn of your turn, meaning you need to choose to cycle or leave up counter magic). Also just a 3 mana creature that gets blocked by anything with flying. I'm not a fan, we have much better options (Disallow is a more versatile answer to abilities).
Rather just have disallow so I can also counter any spell and have another good target for snap later on. Don't think the 3/1 flying option is enough to play it, but it might be a great card in standard.
Have you been playing bennyhillz' list? It seems to be working to well to mess with, but I'm trying to figure out what the most "flexible" few cards would be. I'm thinking Think Twice one of the Detention Spheres or 1 Jace, Architect of ThoughtWall of Omens or maybe even a land? I don't know, all those cards are really useful, but I still want to squeeze a third cryptic and or elspeth or maybe just a disallow.
Sounds good, I think I will take out the temple of enlightenment for a cryptic tonight. Going to try building this deck online soon so I can get a lot more reps in than just one or 2 events a week. Jace and D-Sphere have both been really good for me lately, especially when I played against esper tokens! Full set of Tec Edge also sounds like something worth trying, I only have 2, but I'll grab 2 more and try it out.
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Leak vs. Knot
I'm on 2 Leak and 1 Knot currently. I think Leak is mostly fine, even though it has anti-synergy with Path and even though it becomes dead against some matchups. Even in those matchups, it becomes a Negate in some of the stack wars when opponents are too deep into their mana. I also don't want to invest too heavily in the UU Knot on our manabase; there are lots of Quarter/Edge/Plains openings where you can't cast it T2. Same with fetchless/no-SV openers where Knot isn't live on T2.
Temple of Enlightenment
I like the card a lot. It's a solid land topdeck later and a great T1 play if you don't have SV and don't need to Path. I would never cut the singleton.
Finishers
Like some other posters here, I've struggled in games where I can't turn the corner quickly and take a proactive Plan B win. Grixis can do this with Angler/Tasigur/burn. Jeskai does it with Bolt/Snap/Bolt. We don't really have those lines and the best way to go proactive is often just Snapcaster beats or Gideon of the Trials. Unfortunately, Snapcaster is super slow and Gideon gets stonewalled/can't protect you while also beating down. Colonnade can't win until much later. Nor can a heavy-hitter like Gideon Jura or Elspeth.
For time-honored win conditions, we have Clique, Geist, and Queller. I'm partial to Clique because it fits our interactive gameplan, flies, and hits relatively hard. Clique also gives us information, which Queller, another interactive card, does not. More "out there" options include Myth Realized, Glory-Bound Initiate (I enjoyed this card in Esper), and that new Nimble Obstructionist thing.
Not sure if these necessarily improve the strategy. That said, I think the marginal benefit of having the option to win faster, plus the benefit of interaction if you go with Queller/Clique, outweigh the marginal costs of opening 2 slots. I'm already about to cut the underperforming Wall of Omens and would love a replacement.
Speaking of which...
Wall of Omens
I have not been loving this card. I generally want all my cards to have flash (Snapcaster + instants) or to have an immediate on-board impact (Verdict, Seas, Sphere, planeswalkers, etc.). Wall doesn't do either. It's only decent against a small subset of landlocked aggressive plays, and against those decks, I almost always prefer to keep up countermagic or removal than the Wall. Most of the aggressive decks these days either go too wide for Wall to matter or fly over it entirely. The only place it does a bit better is against Burn if you're on the play, but even then this can backfire with Searing Blaze. Not saying I've never found Wall useful; I actually really like Wall + Gideon lines against top-tier E-Tron. I just think we can do better in that slot. What thoughts do you all have on Wall?
It completely sucks against spell based combo like Storm and Nauseam or KCI but you can't be well poised in MB against everything.
Okay. First off, I am on 2 Knot and 1 Leak, and it's been alright. I've been testing a Supreme Will in the place of the Leak, and it's been performing fine. Not above average, but not terrible. The only prom Ken I have with multiple Leak is just how they flat-out aren't relevant in so many matchups (E-Tron, Tron, Mirror), and that as a control deck, we want to go lategame and outvalue our opponents. In the lategame, Leak is sub-par.
I'd also appreciate seeing your list if you don't mind.
UWR Control
BR Hollow One
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Wall of Omens
Planeswalkers (4)
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Gideon Jura
Spells (26)
4 Path to Exile
4 Serum Visions
4 Spreading Seas
3 Cryptic Command
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Detention Sphere
2 Condemn
2 Mana Leak
1 Negate
1 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Logic Knot
4 Flooded Strand
4 Celestial Colonnade
2 Glacial Fortress
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Irrigated Farmland
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Tectonic Edge
5 Island
2 Plains
3 Spell Queller
2 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Dispel
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Celestial Purge
1 Secure the Wastes
1 Timely Reinforcements
Comments are welcomed and I'll look forward to contribute to the thread with reports and such. I'm still debating between :
1) 2 or 3 Snapcaster Mage?
2) 3 or 4 Cryptic Command?
Thanks in advance!
Aggro: Naya Burn RWG
Combo: Scapeshift RG
Control: Jeskai Control UWR
Legacy
Control: Miracles UW
Aggro: Burn R
Tom, Storm is a tough matchup. You want to board your Dispels and since you don't have more Negates, the Spell Quellers (they don't play removal). But even if you do that it's just difficult because they can threaten to go off turn after turn.
For the rest of the matchups it seems like you want Verdicts 3 and 4? In matchups that are about speed (Burn, Affinity, Storm), I take out Jace, Elspeth for more interaction. You just want to lower your curve. See Bennyhillz' sideboard guide. I don't love 2x mainboard Condemn, I think 1 Gideon of the Trials and 3rd Supreme Verdict would be stronger mainboard. One other thing about the fast matchups is that Gideon of the Trials does a lot of work...every point of loyalty is a point of virtual lifegain, much more if you have blockers out, and if you happen to stabilize he's a fast clock. If Burn or Affinity only have a single profitable creature down, he can just lock it down repeatedly. Little Gideon is just so key in these kinds of matchups I could see playing both. I like 3rd Cryptic because the card is so strong but not as big of a fan of the 3rd Snapcaster (2/1 body not particularly relevant, our spells can be expensive to flashback, nobo with Verdict, easily hated by opp. graveyard hate).
And if your meta includes Soul Sister and Eldrazi and Taxes you will want all 4 Verdicts, at least in the side.
It's tough, if you have 4 lands in hand that come in mostly untapped, then I value the potential to cycle Irrigated Farmland. If you're short on lands, yeah, keeping your shockland in the deck so you can draw it makes a lot of sense.
So far, I like 25 lands with 4 cantrips and a ton of scrying. I would sooner cut Glacial Fortress 2/3 Island #5 then the first Temple, though.
I am a huge fan of -1 Jace for +1 Elspeth, as I've said above.
I would not cut CA spells, but Wall isn't CA. It's a two-mana, sorcery-speed Think Twice. It's dead in a bunch of matchups, and not even that great in the matchups where it's supposed to be live. Wall at its best is still only okay (e.g. T2 Wall into T3 Gideon into T4 Verdict against aggro), and wall at its worst is really bad. Contrast with Seas: it does something decent in basically every matchup, and when it's good, it's a knockout.
I'd consider Glimmer of Genius, Think Twice, Clique, or Queller in that slot instead. Basically, cards that either give actual or virtual CA and are live in more matchups.
Wall of Omens mostly depends on the meta. Yesterday he saved me from numerous finks attacks.
EDIT : NEW LIST
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Torrential Gearhulk
Planeswalkers (3)
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
1 Gideon Jura
Spells (29)
4 Cryptic Command
4 Path to Exile
4 Serum Visions
4 Spreading Seas
3 Supreme Verdict
2 Detention Sphere
2 Mana Leak
2 Think Twice
2 Negate
1 Sphinx's Revelation
1 Logic Knot
4 Flooded Strand
3 Celestial Colonnade
2 Glacial Fortress
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Irrigated Farmland
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Mystic Gate
5 Island
2 Plains
2 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Condemn
2 Dispel
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Spell Queller
1 Blessed Alliance
1 Secure the Wastes
1 Timely Reinforcements
Cheers!
Aggro: Naya Burn RWG
Combo: Scapeshift RG
Control: Jeskai Control UWR
Legacy
Control: Miracles UW
Aggro: Burn R
Leak seems to work fine for me going late against Tron variants. Granted that I play 4 Tec Edge rather than the split of 2 Edge 2 Quarter that others are playing (which I don't really get). Keeping them off Tron (and/or multiple temples) is trivial generally, and the spells that matter cost 7+. Combined with the fact that Chalice usually comes down on 1, blanking Path, or paths get sided out - them getting to 10+ Mana before I've got control of the game just hasn't been an issue.
I'm also not sure why you think Leak is bad in the mirror. I find this to be one of the few matchups where leak is relevant even when my opponent has 9+ lands. This is because the games tend to revolve around Mana advantage. If your opponent knows you are on Mana leak, you essentially gained 3 land drops if they want to play around it - which is often incorrect, btw. Sometimes it's better to force the counter-magic out of your opponents hand. But having Mana leak will sometimes lead your opponent to making the incorrect decision of waiting to play around it, essentially giving you time to sculpt your game plan.
Not listed on the website tho.....
Any words of wisdom?
I was just about to post this. I'm experimenting with 2 right now. I'm running a shadow of doubt, 4 spreading seas, and 3 ghost quarters, so I wanted 2 to stick with a mana denial subtheme. It seems like it's a decent card (although it would have been so much better if it stifled on ETB or cycle). I think 1 is probably a better number since it's a gotcha type card. I have managed to stifle a storm trigger which felt great as well as an expedition map. I'm not sure how good it will be in the long run, but it's worth trying now.
Legacy: UW RiP/Helm, UR Sneak and Show
It works better with ghost quarter and helps against scapeshift alot, let alone the chord/company decks.
That being said, its likely better in delver like strategies than in actual control.
In addition to that, it stops Planeswalkers Ultimate or against PW relevant ability when needed...
I'm just not too sure if it stops Ulamog/ Emrakul "When you cast" effect as well, but I'm sure it stops TKS, Vendilion Clique, Primeval Titan, Archbound Ravager (Sac Activation), Kitchen Finks and of course fetch lands...
I think it is not so good for a Stifle card to be at 3cost, but the upside proactive turn into a 3/1 flyer or draw a card while stifling is sweet...
A card like this may be worth a try...
Peace...
for fetchland (and other nuisances) there is already shadow of doubt, that also "combo" with path to exile and ghost quarter.
so short answer: dont bother to try the card (stick with vendilion clique or other thing instead)
This