I personally don't think running as many as 7 basics is an issue. Given we run 3-4 Supreme Verdict and 2-3 Cryptic Command, I think it's actually pretty necessary to deal with blood moon and land destruction.
I played the full Benny list for the first time last night except I had a celestial purge instead of the 2nd negate in the sideboard, so really the same thing. I won't do a full recap, but I totally crushed it, my opponents had no chance and the deck played like a doomsday clock! I've always been bad at sticking with 1 deck for the long haul, but I've finally found that 1 deck I'm going to be playing for a long time. I'm keeping my playsets of AVs and extra snaps/cryptics and other relevant stuff so I can always build any version of the deck at any time.
A few cards that I haven't played with before that impressed last night. First of all irrigated farmland! I was never unhappy to see this card in my opening hand or late game for cycling. Geist of Saint Traft out of the board, this guy won a couple games, including 1 game against a jeskai spirits deck where I swung for 16 damage in 1 turn with big gideon, CC and Geist. Gideon of the Trials He was attacking on an open board so often and forced a couple nice chump blocks, love this guy! Think Twice and Mana Leak were also both better than I expected. Leak was only dead once or twice, but almost always hit a great target, also having 2 of them in hand a couple times where I would have been able to use both on the same spell if I had to. I think that's another benefit of playing 3 copies of Mana Leak, better chance of having 2 in your hand when you need to counter the same spell twice.
Congrats dude! On another note, I absolutely hate 3 Leak in the main. I play 2 Knot and a Leak, and it's been going well for me. I can even see playing three Knot and upping my fetch count from 6 to 8. Maybe I'm missing something, but 3 Leak seems absolutely terrible.
I've also been testing with a Glimmer instead of a TT, I suggest you give it a try.
I'm having trouble against Shadow with Benny's list. I don't know what's going on, but practically all my removal is taken out before he gets his creatures online. What's your sideboard plan?
Other than the fact that you can represent it and Cryptic at the same time, the card is insane. 4-mana instant that lets you see four cards, it's a Serum Visions on steroids. It's hard to explain why, just try it.
Alright, apparently B/W tokens is not a good matchup for this deck. I lost really badly to it today. Is there a way to beat this deck?
Not without sacrificing something to the larger meta. But if it's something you square off against regularly try to find some sideboard space for Echoing Truth and/or paraselene. Those combined with Verdicts and Snapcaster should get you there, I think.
There are reasonable tools.
Counterspells in general tend to be strong against them (spell snare in particular), as are boardwipes.
Sideboard cards like hallowed moonlight, echoing truth, EE, jace architect of though, celestial purge, ghostly prison, or detention sphere are all atleast moderately playable against other decks, and do some serious work against tokens.
I have a question regarding SB clocks. Ben plays the package of Geist and Clique as 1-ofs to complement his Gideons in the MB. However, MTGO grinder Gul Dukat plays 4 Spell Quellers. I know that Queller is very good when you cut Wraths and basically against any combo deck it's an auto include. My issue is whether one strategy is better than the other. Queller is a super powerful tempo play, but Geist and Clique are more versatile and hit way harder(especially GoST). What are you guys running and what am i missing regarding those cards and possible metagame calls.
Lastly, continuing on the Queller topic, i usually board out Verdicts against Burn, and i know Ben brings Geist and Clique, does Queller fit in the same category against the Burn decks?.
Benny's list with following changes
-1 Mana leak
-1 Temple of Enlightenment
-2 Ghost Quarter
+1 Logic Knot
+1 Hallowed Fountain
+2 Tectonic Edge
2-0 Mirror (didn't expect to see it)
1-2 8 Rack
2-0 Eldrazi Tron
2-0 Abzan Midrange
Leaks were dead often, logic knot was solid. Will probably cut another leak for something but not a 2nd knot.
Tectonic Edge was stellar, and I tried to keep track of how often it would have been better if it was a ghost quarter. It seemed to me that I never would have preferred to have had ghost quarter, Came close once when I thought I was going to miss my second white source for a supreme verdict, but I got it on time. However it also seemed that Ghost Quarter would have sufficed in most situations as well. I won't be cutting tec edges for quarters.
Little Gideon was great. Gonna try a 3rd over big Gideon. Having the extra Mana available to cast Gideon and still either represent or actually interact seems like the upside is higher than big Gideons overall higher power level. Everytime I stabilized, it didn't matter which Gideon I had, the game was over and the +2+2 stats seemed largely irrelevant except one time when little Gideon got dismembered in the Eldrazi Tron match.
Any suggestions for what to include over the 2nd Mana leak? I actually don't hate Censor as a 1-of. What do you guys think? Still forces the opponent to be mindful, can still snag a turn 2 or 3 play. Cycles just fine after turn 4. Not sure about this one.
Has anyone tried messing with Glimmer of Genius in the deck at all? I'm running something really similar to Benny's (the counter suite leaning more towards battling Ux decks as my meta is super blue heavy), but I have been considering dropping the Think Twice for a Glimmer. Maybe even going down to 25 lands to bring it in instead of dropping TT.
3-1 tonight.
Any suggestions for what to include over the 2nd Mana leak? I actually don't hate Censor as a 1-of. What do you guys think? Still forces the opponent to be mindful, can still snag a turn 2 or 3 play. Cycles just fine after turn 4. Not sure about this one.
For me it's simple and clear - remand. It's weird that PPL forgot about this great counterspell - I know we are not combo or tempo deck but remand is still gr8.
Mana leak is soo bad in this deck for 2 reasons:
1. we play long game = mana leak is often just good as dead.
2. Our best removal spell is Path to exile - we can't afford to cut it and I don't need to clarify how mana leak works with PtE.
I use remand to bounce my own PtE or condemn (vs DS when they kill their DS in response), as a defence against countermagic or just to stall the game. It helps in digging for answer, in early game can give just free turn to play this horrible 4rd land for verdict.
It's very versatile and powerful card It gots silly matchups (burn/affinity) but other than these it's great as a 2-of here.
@threeeasysteps - I don't think cutting lands is a good idea in a blue meta; missing land drops is detrimental in control mirrors. I sometimes sacrifice a much coveted sideboard slot for an extra utility land in U metas. Blighted Cataract sort of does what you're looking for. That said, I think that Think Twice is better than Glimmer because you can break up the Mana cost, and I personally think I would move to 2 Think Twices before considering any Glimmers. I also think that Pull From Tomorrow is better than Glimmer of Genius, and I've been considering cutting the Sphinx Rev for it (keeping the single think twice).
@dassul- Remand is an interesting option, I will consider it. Though in the hours since my post I was doing some thinking and I think I might keep the 2nd Mana leak and just switch Sphinx Rev for Pull from Tomorrow...I can pitch dead leaks late while increasing the liklihood of having it early.
I like Clique as well but i find the body a little to fragile. Against Burn for example, the ability is close to useless since it's a 4-of deck in every card, Clique is not good against non-combo redundancy. I think Queller being a reactive card is better since the tempo swing favors you most of the time.
Having said this, i never went to a tournament playing as control and not have at least 1 Clique in my 75. I'm wondering how Queller matches up against certain metagames in contrast with Geist and Clique(Geist has won me a ton of games against combo though).
On the Mana Leak matter: Something that has cross my mind a lot from playing control since i started Modern is that, Blue Control decks without universal counterspells like Mana Leak or Remand(which is not really a counterspell) makes those decks feel too fragile and inconsistent. Modern is full of nonsense starting from T2 and on. While Path and Mana Leak are a nonbo, and Leak is already pretty bad on its own, it's still a necessary evil. It's like discard spells in black based decks, it protects you from random plays and nonsense. Having that two mana counter to answer whatever play your opponent can come up with in the early game is fundamental to actually getting to the late game(which is where we want to go). Logic Know is a suitable sidekick, but in UW you can't jam them as if they were better than Leaks because they aren't. I'm liking the Leaks in all my matches playing UW except the ones with Caverns, where stack control isn't relevant anymore.
@bloodyrabbit - I'm not too fond of more than 1 logic knot in this stock list. Adding more fetches doesn't seem great as one the of the big draws to this deck is the painless mana base, and I'm almost always happy to draw into more lands until I've hit something like 10 lands in play. Without the added fetches, even the Singleton Knot has left me with next to nothing in the yard once I use it. And it competes with Snapcaster, which already has only a few good targets in this kind of list.
I would probably try to fit a third Cryptic Command in before anything else, In the BennyHill list anyway. I think Mana Leak just gets even worse when you have less copies of it, if there's only 1 in the deck your chances of drawing it when it's live are pretty low. Might as well play 0 instead of 1.
No question about that. What works best for everyone should be respected. I was just defending Mana Leak in UW and making some points of why it's good in Benny's list. Basically it helps with the alignment of answers to threats control struggles with. Logic Knot is good too but it's harder to enable.
On the Clique discussion: You can try to protect your life gain spells but again, the deck is so redundant that taking 1 of their 7 Skullcrack effects seems almost trivial. I will say thoug, that Queller blocks better than Clique. It blocks Guide and Swift favorably. Anyways, none of those are lights out against Burn IMO.
@Slowgod I'm not sure where are you coming from with that comment but a friend of Benny has a league on Youtube in which he trades 1 Jace for 3rd Command. He went 4-1 and made some bad punts by misclick. He makes his case for that swap in the Deck Tech. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSqFr7VmfZcG430jfNt5UGg
I actually sort of agree on Mana Leak being worse if you run it in smaller numbers, sort of like Ancestral Vision; I would run 2 but I'm not sure I'd want 1. That being said, personally I think Mana Leak is one of the most important cards in the deck, even though it's dead a lot of the time. The times where it's dead are when the opponent has 8+ mana against most decks, which either means they're flooding hard or it's the very late game. In either of those situations, we're probably winning either way. The exception is in blue control mirrors where the opponent is on a high land count, which hasn't really been very common for a while. If UW continues to become more popular I could see making the switch, but for now I'm content to stick on Mana Leak because it's great in the early turns which is where we usually lose, and the mirror is more about playskill than the exact configuration.
I have blue moon built and All the pieces to this in my binder. I would love to play this deck as my one control deck I keep built. Is the oujitai builds still good. Not command but the dragon itself. Also I have 3 A visions. Could those be for In the newer builds
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C Kozilek C
GB Gitrog GB
G Titania G
WU Brago WU
GB MerenGB
Duel Commander Decks
UR Keranos UR
BRG Jund BRG
GR Tron GR GW Tron GW
C Eldrazi Tron (SB) C
BG Lantern Control BG
UW Control (SB) UW
Congrats dude! On another note, I absolutely hate 3 Leak in the main. I play 2 Knot and a Leak, and it's been going well for me. I can even see playing three Knot and upping my fetch count from 6 to 8. Maybe I'm missing something, but 3 Leak seems absolutely terrible.
I've also been testing with a Glimmer instead of a TT, I suggest you give it a try.
UWR Control
BR Hollow One
I've been thinking of trying out Glimmer of Genius. Can you elaborate on how it has been working for you?
UWR Control
BR Hollow One
Not without sacrificing something to the larger meta. But if it's something you square off against regularly try to find some sideboard space for Echoing Truth and/or paraselene. Those combined with Verdicts and Snapcaster should get you there, I think.
Counterspells in general tend to be strong against them (spell snare in particular), as are boardwipes.
Sideboard cards like hallowed moonlight, echoing truth, EE, jace architect of though, celestial purge, ghostly prison, or detention sphere are all atleast moderately playable against other decks, and do some serious work against tokens.
Lastly, continuing on the Queller topic, i usually board out Verdicts against Burn, and i know Ben brings Geist and Clique, does Queller fit in the same category against the Burn decks?.
Thanks in advance!
Benny's list with following changes
-1 Mana leak
-1 Temple of Enlightenment
-2 Ghost Quarter
+1 Logic Knot
+1 Hallowed Fountain
+2 Tectonic Edge
2-0 Mirror (didn't expect to see it)
1-2 8 Rack
2-0 Eldrazi Tron
2-0 Abzan Midrange
Leaks were dead often, logic knot was solid. Will probably cut another leak for something but not a 2nd knot.
Tectonic Edge was stellar, and I tried to keep track of how often it would have been better if it was a ghost quarter. It seemed to me that I never would have preferred to have had ghost quarter, Came close once when I thought I was going to miss my second white source for a supreme verdict, but I got it on time. However it also seemed that Ghost Quarter would have sufficed in most situations as well. I won't be cutting tec edges for quarters.
Little Gideon was great. Gonna try a 3rd over big Gideon. Having the extra Mana available to cast Gideon and still either represent or actually interact seems like the upside is higher than big Gideons overall higher power level. Everytime I stabilized, it didn't matter which Gideon I had, the game was over and the +2+2 stats seemed largely irrelevant except one time when little Gideon got dismembered in the Eldrazi Tron match.
Any suggestions for what to include over the 2nd Mana leak? I actually don't hate Censor as a 1-of. What do you guys think? Still forces the opponent to be mindful, can still snag a turn 2 or 3 play. Cycles just fine after turn 4. Not sure about this one.
Thoughta?
For me it's simple and clear - remand. It's weird that PPL forgot about this great counterspell - I know we are not combo or tempo deck but remand is still gr8.
Mana leak is soo bad in this deck for 2 reasons:
1. we play long game = mana leak is often just good as dead.
2. Our best removal spell is Path to exile - we can't afford to cut it and I don't need to clarify how mana leak works with PtE.
I use remand to bounce my own PtE or condemn (vs DS when they kill their DS in response), as a defence against countermagic or just to stall the game. It helps in digging for answer, in early game can give just free turn to play this horrible 4rd land for verdict.
It's very versatile and powerful card It gots silly matchups (burn/affinity) but other than these it's great as a 2-of here.
@Little Giddie FTW!
@dassul- Remand is an interesting option, I will consider it. Though in the hours since my post I was doing some thinking and I think I might keep the 2nd Mana leak and just switch Sphinx Rev for Pull from Tomorrow...I can pitch dead leaks late while increasing the liklihood of having it early.
Having said this, i never went to a tournament playing as control and not have at least 1 Clique in my 75. I'm wondering how Queller matches up against certain metagames in contrast with Geist and Clique(Geist has won me a ton of games against combo though).
On the Mana Leak matter: Something that has cross my mind a lot from playing control since i started Modern is that, Blue Control decks without universal counterspells like Mana Leak or Remand(which is not really a counterspell) makes those decks feel too fragile and inconsistent. Modern is full of nonsense starting from T2 and on. While Path and Mana Leak are a nonbo, and Leak is already pretty bad on its own, it's still a necessary evil. It's like discard spells in black based decks, it protects you from random plays and nonsense. Having that two mana counter to answer whatever play your opponent can come up with in the early game is fundamental to actually getting to the late game(which is where we want to go). Logic Know is a suitable sidekick, but in UW you can't jam them as if they were better than Leaks because they aren't. I'm liking the Leaks in all my matches playing UW except the ones with Caverns, where stack control isn't relevant anymore.
On the Clique discussion: You can try to protect your life gain spells but again, the deck is so redundant that taking 1 of their 7 Skullcrack effects seems almost trivial. I will say thoug, that Queller blocks better than Clique. It blocks Guide and Swift favorably. Anyways, none of those are lights out against Burn IMO.
@Slowgod I'm not sure where are you coming from with that comment but a friend of Benny has a league on Youtube in which he trades 1 Jace for 3rd Command. He went 4-1 and made some bad punts by misclick. He makes his case for that swap in the Deck Tech.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCSqFr7VmfZcG430jfNt5UGg