1. They can win out of nowhere better than most decks in my experience. Even against stuff like Ad Nauseam, we can generally tap out on turn 3 to resolve a threat like a Gideon and then hold up countermagic for the rest of the game, but Storm can very consistently kill you if you do that so it's really hard to stick a threat and they can have as much time as they need, even if you have a solid number of answers. Plus hate cards like RIP aren't as good as they look since Storm can win through it pretty easily or just bounce it the turn they go off. I don't think Mardu is a bad matchup, I just played against the same guy with a weird list a few times and didn't know how to play. I lost to Blood Moon randomly without realizing he was even playing it, stuff like that.
2. That's very true, in my opinion games with/against UW tend to be super complicated with a ton of decisions so that really rewards knowing the matchup better, and since most people don't play with or against UW that much, I'm almost always the one who knows the matchup better. I think has an inflated effect with this deck, so even if Eldrazi Tron is 50/50 when people play optimally, if I understand the dynamic of the matchup more then I can still get a nice win percentage. The only issue with that is that my win percentage would presumably go down a lot if I were playing super experienced pros, so I bet my percentages would drop a lot in the late rounds of a paper tournament.
3. It's possible my results are an anomaly, but at the risk of sounding pretentious, I just don't think many pros are playing/understand the deck. I've watched Gabe Nassif stream a few times and personally I disagree with a ton of his decisions, particularly in sideboarding. I've definitely seen him lose some matchups that I think he could've won if he had taken different lines. That being said, obviously I'm not in a position to say the pros are bad since all I've played is online, so it's hard to say.
Hi bennyhillz! Thanks so much for contributing to the thread -- long time admirer of your work ;). I've tried my hand at a version of your build that plays AV, rather than Rev. I'm wondering if you'd critique my list, if you have the time: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/03-04-17-lxJ-uw-control/.
Thanks Sword of Feast and Famine! I really like your list, it seems like you would have a great deaths shadow matchup and eldrazi tron matchup, which is huge right now. The only thing I'd say is that personally I like guarenteeing land drops, so even though you have a lot of cantrips, I'd probably try to fit in one more land, maybe over a removal spell since I would guess you'll probably be good against decks that removal spells are good against anyways, but I definitely like your list a lot. How have Logic Knot and Disenchant been for you? I've been thinking of trying both of those out.
Awesome news -- thanks very much! Glad to have the hillz stamp of approval. I'm sort of tempted to just straight up copy your list, but I just foiled out this list (AVs included), so I'm reluctant to drop them ;p (I know that's the wrong kind of reason to run a particular build, but *shrug*).
Logic Knot, as a 1 of, has been great. I don't think my build, with only 4 fetches, could support more. I do like your 3 Mana Leak, though, especially against E-Tron -- I'm not sure what's better. Disenchant is great. Chalice is awful, and Disenchant helps (plus it's good in other match ups, too, obviously).
Hey chipper. The biggest difference I see between your list and other similar builds is the one-of Think Twice versus 2 Revs. Can you speak to the thinking behind that decision and how it has worked for you? Looks like you have been running that configuration since at least early May.
Also, I noticed you removed Runed Halo and Blessed Alliance from your SB. Can you please share your thinking on those two cards?
3. Why don't you think UW is putting up better results in general? It seems very solid, yet besides the Japanese GP/ SCG event, we won't really see many solid placings by control in general it seems.
UW is a strong deck in a known field but when you're going into a big tournament it's really hard to tune it for all matchups. There are simply not enough slots to ensure we have favourable matchups against DS, burn, tron, affinity, storm, dredge, coco variants and whatever else might show up.
We can easily make matchups against a set number of decks incredibly favourable but to the detriment of others.
Unfortunately the T1 decks don't have this issue. Affinity and burn are both fast enough that the deck they are facing doesn't have such an impact on how the game plays out. The mixture of disruption and cheap large threats from DS gives them game against all the other decks. Tron has haymakers that some decks just can't beat like chalice for 1, resolving turn 2-3 TKS or smasher
Hey, this is Francesco from the UWx Midrange/Control communinity on FB. I've been sharing your daily 5-0's and have advocated for this approach to UW players and others looking to play a viable and adaptable Control deck in Modern. Fantastic work. I agree with many of your points, including that Omens is very good alongside Trials to force overextension. I first played 2 Trials in UW Midrange with Omens, Finks, Clique, Resto, etc. and loved it. I also talk to Keenan quite a bit about this deck.
I have 2 questions, because the rest is truly on point to me -
1. How have 2 CC been over the common 3?
2. Have you tested or considered Glimmer of Genius? The card is a nice bridge to Rev, but I see you're on Think Twice.
I'm currently testing a UWb version of this and I'm loving it. I splashed B for Fatal Push, Tasigur (just recently), and Collective Brutality (3 side because they're arguably the best vs Burn, but are also good vs some Combo, mirrors, and Company).
Went 2-1-1 last night at FNM, and am now 6-1-1 with a Hillz-style UW build. My only loss was to a GR Tron deck I handily beat on Wednesday. Nothing seem to go right this time around and I lost 2-1. The one game win was on the back of Geist which I dropped turn three and then just beat down. This guy is a regular at my store so I am sure I will be facing him quite a bit in the future. I have to get a better handle on the Tron matchup.
Using Chipper's decklist, how would you SB for Tron?
-2 Wall of Omens
-1 Gideon Jura
-3 Supreme Verdict
+1 Geist of Saint Traft
+1 Vendilion Clique
+2 Negate
+2 Stony Silence
What do you think of this plan? When I played this guy Wednesday, turn 2 Stony Silence wrecked him in game 2; but I didn't see it at all games 2 and 3 last night. I think it made a big difference.
Ctaylor33, I used to run a much higher curve but I found that I wasn't able to cast multiple spells in a turn as much as I needed to to keep up so I made a big effort to lower my curve, which meant trimming a Cryptic and a Rev. I don't want to have more cards that cost 4 or more than I have to since I can already outgrind most of the popular decks. Runed Halo is sweet but I like it a lot less now that I'm up to 5 MD planeswalkers since it makes Halo way worse against creature decks. It's still good against stuff like Storm and Valakut but it has less good matchups now. Alliance was solid but really only helpful in matchups that were already good so I decided to cut it for a dispel to shore up worse matchups. Thanks man!
And in response to your second post, that's actually exactly how I sideboard against them, except I also usually bring in Elspeth because it matches up well against Karn. Depending on their exact build my last cut is usually a Path since they generally only run 6 creatures and sometimes they cut Wurmcoils.
1. Cryptic is great, I love the card, but I wanted to lower the curve like I was saying to ctaylor and while Cryptic is always good, there's no matchups that are almost impossible without Cryptic, while there are some matchups that you can't win without Verdict.
2. I haven't tested it but I could see it being better than Think Twice. I don't love the idea of adding more 4 drops but Glimmer digs pretty deep so it could definitely be worth the spot. Have you tested it much?
Thanks for the replies, Chipper! It's great to have access to someone with so much experience and success with the deck I like to play most in Magic. Have you ever typed up a SB guide? If not, would that be something you would be willing to do? Heatchecker has a Google Doc he typed up a few months ago, but it is for his list which had more creatures (Finks, Resto Angel). I know some people frown on SB guides because there can be variance with players and lists, and draw or play, but it is nice to have a general guide for reference.
I was working on a SB plan for some of the decks I face at my local LGS using your 75. Can you please look at it and let me know what you think? Heatchecker says he brings in Geist and V Clique versus Burn which is not something I ever would have thought to do. What do you think of that plan?
I'm seeing more and more of the Wall of Omens / little Gideon lists doing well online. Feels bad to just cut that expensive playset of Ancestral Visions Wall seems great against some of the tougher matchups like burn or a fast start from affinity. Even just chumping a shadow or Tasigur for 1 turn can't be too bad.
Good news is you don't need to cut the playset of AV! I've updated my AV list to include 2 Walls and it's been great! Here's the recipe: shave the Spell Snares, slot in two Walls. The fundamental difference between the Rev list and the AV list is that the latter plays 4 AV instead of 2 extra lands and 2 Rev (though I think AV lists should, in general, be focused on cheaper interaction than the Rev lists). The point is: never fear, the difference between the two lists is pretty negligible -- we just have more people running the Rev build at the moment. Here's my updated list for reference: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/03-04-17-lxJ-uw-control/.
I also like Negate and Cage vs Storm, and I've also been leaving in one Verdict because if you have graveyard hate in play they usually try to win through Empty the Warrens. I also like having a little pressure, so I usually bring in Clique and Geist. Walls and Seas are both fine but not great, so those are usually what I cut. Affinity's best card by a mile is Plating, so on the play I actually like leaving in Mana Leak to try to stop that, although it's not great if they resolve it on turn 1. In my experience Wall and Gideon aren't great there since they can go wide and fly over Wall. I really like your plan against Tron, that's almost exactly what I do. The only other difference is I think it's fine to trim one Path for an Elspeth since it's so good against Tron and they usually only run 4-6 creatures post-board. I don't like Gideon of the Trials against Elves since they can go so wide so I usually cut those 2 to bring in Cage and Elspeth. Elspeth creates so many blockers that are good against 1/1s and 2/2s, and Cage preemptively shuts off Coco and Chord. I've seen some lists move to Lead the Stampede over Chord though, so that could be changing.
And for Burn, I agree with bringing in those creatures. When Keenan first told me he did that I was also surprised, but they deal themselves a ton of damage between their manabase and Eidolon. Especially on the play if they drop a turn 2 Eidolon and you drop a turn 3 Geist it's really hard to win since their spells all deal themselves 2 and you're hitting for 6 a turn. Even without this admittedly ideal scenario, we need a way to close out the game, since eventually they'll draw enough burn even if you counter a lot of things, and Clique and Geist do that better than anything else in the matchup. They're not great if you're already behind by a lot, but outside of Timely not very much is, so my plan against Burn is to aggressively mulligan into removal spells, stabilize against their early creatures, drop a win condition on turn 3 or 4, and kill them in a few turns while holding up counters and removal for anything they have in turns 5-7. I also swing with Colonnade very aggressively.
I think that build has a ton of potential and very well could be better than mine, I just haven't tested it yet since I really want to hang on to the trophy lead until this League ends before I experiment with something else, which is obviously not a great reason from a testing perspective, but oh well. I think those builds are generally going to be a little bit less consistent (it only runs 5 cantrips that cost 2 or less whereas I run 11) but a lot more powerful, so it depends on playstyle and metagame. I'll definitely test it out when I can though. Have you tried it yourself?
I like Jace more than most because it's my go-to way to pull ahead on cards against anything slow and the plus is great against anything trying to go wide like Affinity or Elves. The only matchups where I really don't like it is Burn because we don't really have time to spend 4 mana to draw cards. I generally trim one against Vizier decks and Zoo and cut both against Burn, but that's about it. Unless you're dying on turn 4, the worst case scenario is you drop him, he draw 2 cards and then he soaks up some damage. I used to make the mistake of cutting a lot of card draw against fast decks on the assumption that I wouldn't have time to cast it, but I actually think that's wrong because even if you handle their early aggression, you need a way to pull ahead and close out the game, both of which Jace can do.
went 3-1 last night with Navas' exact list except my sideboard had 2 runed halo instead of meddling mage and a 2nd timely instead of V Clique. I lost my first match against Tron, he had turn 3 natural tron + Karn = gg. Game 2 I SS 2 of his tron lands and GQ 2 others but couldn't draw a single counterspell, removal or verdict and just kind of drew a bunch of lands and useless cards and got beat down by ballistas and little stuff. Sometimes you just can't win and your opponent can't lose.
Round 2 Vs Jeskai control: 2-0, my opponent is newer to magic, but had a decent deck together. Game 1 was long and I ended up ulting jace and taking a new jace from his deck and gideon from mine which left me with 3 PWs on the board after I found the right time to resolve Elspeth. I knew what he had in his hand most of the time after I cliqued him and had to hold Elspeth for a long time until I had an opening. Game 2 was pretty quick, I just had an answer for everything, he got a jace to stick which took me a few turns to get rid of and then I ulted Elspeth with 9 soldiers in play.
Round 3 Vs classic jund: 2-0 This was a lot easier than it should have been, opponent land flooded pretty hard both games and I just killed him with colonnade/gideon and colonnade / clique. I sideboarded 1 card, didn't even worry about the goyfs and left RIP out.
Round 4 Vs Bug Delirium: 2-0 I drew lots of spreading seas and he scooped both game pretty fast. I resolved elspeth in game 2 and he just gave up on the spot, kinda boring :/
Overall the 2 MB negates were great (wish I had 1 for that T3 Karn). I've usually always gone for mana leak instead since it can counter anything, but can also end up dead in long games which UW always tries to drag its opponents through. I'm also back on the AV train, it just refilled my hand with the right answers every time. Vendilion Clique is still an iffy card to me, I got to see a few hands stacked with redundant answers which did help me decide how to play going forward, against Tron I got to see that I was totally screwed no matter what. Against Jund it was not bad when I kept it in hand and played it in response to his Lili +1. It's hard to justify taking out the third snap for a clique though, but overall the deck worked like a clock.
Thanks for the write up, Slowgod! How valuable did you find Spell Snare? My current list is basically yours minus 2 Snare, 1 Clique, and 1 Condemn for +2 Wall, 1 Gideon, and 1 D-Sphere. I'm locked on 2 D-Sphere, but could see cutting the Gideon + Wall package for +1 Snare, 1 Think Twice, and 1 Clique.
Spell Snare was kind of sick against everything except tron :/ I countered 3 snapcasters, a mana leak, a lightning helix, grim flayer, maybe something else too. Opponents were also playing Goyfs but I dealt with them in other ways.
Edit: I was playing 2 D-Sphere before and I could see switching the Clique for that. Nice to be able to deal with something like Karn or Lili when I can't counter them.
2. That's very true, in my opinion games with/against UW tend to be super complicated with a ton of decisions so that really rewards knowing the matchup better, and since most people don't play with or against UW that much, I'm almost always the one who knows the matchup better. I think has an inflated effect with this deck, so even if Eldrazi Tron is 50/50 when people play optimally, if I understand the dynamic of the matchup more then I can still get a nice win percentage. The only issue with that is that my win percentage would presumably go down a lot if I were playing super experienced pros, so I bet my percentages would drop a lot in the late rounds of a paper tournament.
3. It's possible my results are an anomaly, but at the risk of sounding pretentious, I just don't think many pros are playing/understand the deck. I've watched Gabe Nassif stream a few times and personally I disagree with a ton of his decisions, particularly in sideboarding. I've definitely seen him lose some matchups that I think he could've won if he had taken different lines. That being said, obviously I'm not in a position to say the pros are bad since all I've played is online, so it's hard to say.
Logic Knot, as a 1 of, has been great. I don't think my build, with only 4 fetches, could support more. I do like your 3 Mana Leak, though, especially against E-Tron -- I'm not sure what's better. Disenchant is great. Chalice is awful, and Disenchant helps (plus it's good in other match ups, too, obviously).
Also, I noticed you removed Runed Halo and Blessed Alliance from your SB. Can you please share your thinking on those two cards?
PS: Congrats on another 5-0! https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/681808#paper
UW is a strong deck in a known field but when you're going into a big tournament it's really hard to tune it for all matchups. There are simply not enough slots to ensure we have favourable matchups against DS, burn, tron, affinity, storm, dredge, coco variants and whatever else might show up.
We can easily make matchups against a set number of decks incredibly favourable but to the detriment of others.
Unfortunately the T1 decks don't have this issue. Affinity and burn are both fast enough that the deck they are facing doesn't have such an impact on how the game plays out. The mixture of disruption and cheap large threats from DS gives them game against all the other decks. Tron has haymakers that some decks just can't beat like chalice for 1, resolving turn 2-3 TKS or smasher
Hey, this is Francesco from the UWx Midrange/Control communinity on FB. I've been sharing your daily 5-0's and have advocated for this approach to UW players and others looking to play a viable and adaptable Control deck in Modern. Fantastic work. I agree with many of your points, including that Omens is very good alongside Trials to force overextension. I first played 2 Trials in UW Midrange with Omens, Finks, Clique, Resto, etc. and loved it. I also talk to Keenan quite a bit about this deck.
I have 2 questions, because the rest is truly on point to me -
1. How have 2 CC been over the common 3?
2. Have you tested or considered Glimmer of Genius? The card is a nice bridge to Rev, but I see you're on Think Twice.
I'm currently testing a UWb version of this and I'm loving it. I splashed B for Fatal Push, Tasigur (just recently), and Collective Brutality (3 side because they're arguably the best vs Burn, but are also good vs some Combo, mirrors, and Company).
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Using Chipper's decklist, how would you SB for Tron?
2 Wall of Omens
1 Gideon Jura
2 Jace, Architect of Thought
2 Gideon of the Trials
4 Path to Exile
2 Cryptic Command
4 Serum Visions
3 Mana Leak
1 Negate
1 Think Twice
1 Sphinx's Revelation
3 Supreme Verdict
2 Detention Sphere
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
3 Plains
3 Glacial Fortress
2 Tectonic Edge
1 Hallowed Fountain
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Temple of Enlightenment
1 Irrigated Farmland
2 Dispel
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Negate
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
1 Condemn
1 Geist of Saint Traft
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Timely Reinforcements
1 Elspeth, Sun's Champion
I am thinking this vs Tron:
-2 Wall of Omens
-1 Gideon Jura
-3 Supreme Verdict
+1 Geist of Saint Traft
+1 Vendilion Clique
+2 Negate
+2 Stony Silence
What do you think of this plan? When I played this guy Wednesday, turn 2 Stony Silence wrecked him in game 2; but I didn't see it at all games 2 and 3 last night. I think it made a big difference.
And in response to your second post, that's actually exactly how I sideboard against them, except I also usually bring in Elspeth because it matches up well against Karn. Depending on their exact build my last cut is usually a Path since they generally only run 6 creatures and sometimes they cut Wurmcoils.
2. I haven't tested it but I could see it being better than Think Twice. I don't love the idea of adding more 4 drops but Glimmer digs pretty deep so it could definitely be worth the spot. Have you tested it much?
I was working on a SB plan for some of the decks I face at my local LGS using your 75. Can you please look at it and let me know what you think? Heatchecker says he brings in Geist and V Clique versus Burn which is not something I ever would have thought to do. What do you think of that plan?
I also like Negate and Cage vs Storm, and I've also been leaving in one Verdict because if you have graveyard hate in play they usually try to win through Empty the Warrens. I also like having a little pressure, so I usually bring in Clique and Geist. Walls and Seas are both fine but not great, so those are usually what I cut. Affinity's best card by a mile is Plating, so on the play I actually like leaving in Mana Leak to try to stop that, although it's not great if they resolve it on turn 1. In my experience Wall and Gideon aren't great there since they can go wide and fly over Wall. I really like your plan against Tron, that's almost exactly what I do. The only other difference is I think it's fine to trim one Path for an Elspeth since it's so good against Tron and they usually only run 4-6 creatures post-board. I don't like Gideon of the Trials against Elves since they can go so wide so I usually cut those 2 to bring in Cage and Elspeth. Elspeth creates so many blockers that are good against 1/1s and 2/2s, and Cage preemptively shuts off Coco and Chord. I've seen some lists move to Lead the Stampede over Chord though, so that could be changing.
And for Burn, I agree with bringing in those creatures. When Keenan first told me he did that I was also surprised, but they deal themselves a ton of damage between their manabase and Eidolon. Especially on the play if they drop a turn 2 Eidolon and you drop a turn 3 Geist it's really hard to win since their spells all deal themselves 2 and you're hitting for 6 a turn. Even without this admittedly ideal scenario, we need a way to close out the game, since eventually they'll draw enough burn even if you counter a lot of things, and Clique and Geist do that better than anything else in the matchup. They're not great if you're already behind by a lot, but outside of Timely not very much is, so my plan against Burn is to aggressively mulligan into removal spells, stabilize against their early creatures, drop a win condition on turn 3 or 4, and kill them in a few turns while holding up counters and removal for anything they have in turns 5-7. I also swing with Colonnade very aggressively.
I think that build has a ton of potential and very well could be better than mine, I just haven't tested it yet since I really want to hang on to the trophy lead until this League ends before I experiment with something else, which is obviously not a great reason from a testing perspective, but oh well. I think those builds are generally going to be a little bit less consistent (it only runs 5 cantrips that cost 2 or less whereas I run 11) but a lot more powerful, so it depends on playstyle and metagame. I'll definitely test it out when I can though. Have you tried it yourself?
In what MU's do you side out 1 or both Jaces?
Round 2 Vs Jeskai control: 2-0, my opponent is newer to magic, but had a decent deck together. Game 1 was long and I ended up ulting jace and taking a new jace from his deck and gideon from mine which left me with 3 PWs on the board after I found the right time to resolve Elspeth. I knew what he had in his hand most of the time after I cliqued him and had to hold Elspeth for a long time until I had an opening. Game 2 was pretty quick, I just had an answer for everything, he got a jace to stick which took me a few turns to get rid of and then I ulted Elspeth with 9 soldiers in play.
Round 3 Vs classic jund: 2-0 This was a lot easier than it should have been, opponent land flooded pretty hard both games and I just killed him with colonnade/gideon and colonnade / clique. I sideboarded 1 card, didn't even worry about the goyfs and left RIP out.
Round 4 Vs Bug Delirium: 2-0 I drew lots of spreading seas and he scooped both game pretty fast. I resolved elspeth in game 2 and he just gave up on the spot, kinda boring :/
Overall the 2 MB negates were great (wish I had 1 for that T3 Karn). I've usually always gone for mana leak instead since it can counter anything, but can also end up dead in long games which UW always tries to drag its opponents through. I'm also back on the AV train, it just refilled my hand with the right answers every time. Vendilion Clique is still an iffy card to me, I got to see a few hands stacked with redundant answers which did help me decide how to play going forward, against Tron I got to see that I was totally screwed no matter what. Against Jund it was not bad when I kept it in hand and played it in response to his Lili +1. It's hard to justify taking out the third snap for a clique though, but overall the deck worked like a clock.
Edit: I was playing 2 D-Sphere before and I could see switching the Clique for that. Nice to be able to deal with something like Karn or Lili when I can't counter them.