UG feels more like pure aggro/balls gills to the wall than mono-U which has a more tempo approach.
I can see a scenario where merfolk ends up similar to Eldrazi: Two versions (Bant or Tron) that have the same core, but with a different strategy and approach that you can use depending on the meta. The pendulum will probably shift from time to time as for which one is best.
And with Rivals (and don't forget Dominaria!) around the corner, it is indeed a great time to be a merfolk player right now. As far as I'm concerned I'm fully embracing both archetypes and I'm looking forward pushing their limits.
That 75 looks pretty tuned, Ashiok. I like the look of it. It’s too bad the PhImage didn’t do well for you, but that’s kind of what happens to that card in Modern. I've never been impressed with it in this format.
The proclamations of UG being the stock list going forward are a bit much, though. We’re nowhere near there yet. UG has made some strides on being considered in equal footing to mono-U, but until it starts spiking Grand Prix-caliber tournaments or Top8-ing tournaments of all kinds at a high rate, mono-U is still the default.
I liked Branchwalker the moment it was spoiled but thought K. Speaker is just random dork that couldn’t be this relevant just because it is little bigger.
Really suprised about this turn of events and my inability to properly evaluate it.
I am not against splashing, played UR Moonfolk at GP before, it was fun and now I will play UG Tropical Fish at GP Madrid in 6 weeks.
Which version is "stock" has no meaning to me as long as I Spread some lands and enjoy it.
Ross Merriam on SCG Premium, pretty sure he didn't mulligan nearly often enough. I also very much do not like Copter in UG, or Spell Pierce. He clearly did not get the deck.
Pros never, ever get Merfolk - Im yet to see even one play the deck properly!! Except of course Nikachu
haven't played much but I like ketoglutarate's use of 10 1 drops (4 vial + 6 fish). Pretty sure for 22-24 mana sources we want 10 to optimize a T1 play without overloading on 1s.
Ross Merriam on SCG Premium, pretty sure he didn't mulligan nearly often enough. I also very much do not like Copter in UG, or Spell Pierce. He clearly did not get the deck.
Pros never, ever get Merfolk - Im yet to see even one play the deck properly!! Except of course Nikachu
What are they doing wrong, would yall say? I've seen people playing the deck inefficiently, but for the most part its pretty straight forward. Not mulliganing is just a result of a newish player making mistakes I'd say
They mostly use Vial to put a Lord into play on their turn, max on dmg but overextending into sweeper, not realizing that 1 dmg from CC and 2 from Silvergill are enough if opp is not doing anything. Or they tap two and play Lord into open R/B mana.
As I said, 4 pithing needle and 4 natural state felt like too much. I went down to 3 and 3. That opened up two sideboard slots. So, here is the deal: I tested briefly shapers' sanctuary and immediately disliked it. The card was pretty mediocre due to the fact that you need to have it early for you to actually take advantage of its effect. I then asked what I wanted for that slot, and I realized the main problem I was having was with two types of decks: heavy control based decks with white that cast supreme verdict, and decks that plays removal and big creatures. I needed a card that could deal with supreme verdict for a cheap cost and maybe also help cover my bases with big creatures. That was rough. Then I remembered this one: unsubstantiate. I put 2 copies in the sideboard and they have been absolutely bonkers.
Seriously, card is great. Imagine the blowout of your opponent thinking they're clear to wipe your board with verdict and you put it back into his hand? And, of course, it does the same duty with other type of 'big spells' decks, such as tron, scapeshift with bring to light, ad nauseam, various through the breach decks, and even the regular cryptic command. It is also excellent to deal with suspend spells such as ancestral visions and delve creatures. Finally, you can bounce your own creature back to your hand to protect it from removal (which already came up in one match). I can't stress how good this card has been. I urge people who didn't test it: try it, especially if you're expecting a more controlish meta or a 'big spell' meta as I mentioned. I think it is good in a midrange meta as well, where you need it to tempo your opponent out. The flexibility from this card is amazing for such a cheap cost.
Aside from that important observation, I'm still testing the effectiveness of dismembers. They have been ok in most matchups. Not amazing, not too bad. The life loss reaaally hurts in some instances, and I wish there was something better. Seeing how my matchups develop, I'm a bit skeptical that pongify would do a better job in the slot, but I'm still willing to try it. Here is to hoping that something better than dismember comes along for us.
Last but not least, I saw that merfolk joe was experimenting a list that was very similar to mine mainboard wise, just slight changes in the manabase and metallic mimics in the place of reejereys. Honestly, I really like the reejereys due to their tap/untap shenanigans, especially with harbinger in the deck. However, I think I will test a version without the reejereys and with the mimics to see how that goes. I'm still having trouble beating lantern control. Game 1 feels like I'm an underdog and post sideboard I think I make poor keep decisions (keep hands without hate cards). That said, the affinity matchups have been great. I believe I'm 3-1 against affinity in number of matches won vs matches that I lost. Needle is excellent people. I truly recommend it over the counterspells I see many people rocking here in the thread (especially ceremonious rejection).
Would you like to read Commander stories? Check my latest stories, coming from Lorwyn and Innistrad: Ghoulcaller Gisa and Doran, The Siege Tower! If you like my writing, ask me to write something for your commander as well!
Last but not least, I saw that merfolk joe was experimenting a list that was very similar to mine mainboard wise, just slight changes in the manabase and metallic mimics in the place of reejereys. Honestly, I really like the reejereys due to their tap/untap shenanigans, especially with harbinger in the deck. However, I think I will test a version without the reejereys and with the mimics to see how that goes. I'm still having trouble beating lantern control. Game 1 feels like I'm an underdog and post sideboard I think I make poor keep decisions (keep hands without hate cards). That said, the affinity matchups have been great. I believe I'm 3-1 against affinity in number of matches won vs matches that I lost. Needle is excellent people. I truly recommend it over the counterspells I see many people rocking here in the thread (especially ceremonious rejection).
Regarding sanctuary: if the card doesn't come in the opening hand, I wouldn't mull to it. Which means if I ever drew it later it would be a dead card, which happened. Sure you can say that, technically, the chances are low, but the upside of having 2 copies in the sideboard doesn't seem worth it to me. Especially given that the decks you're siding this card against also have ways to get rid of it. In any case, if you're having success with the card, that is great! I would still suggest testing unsubstantiate in the slot. I think it helps in the same matchups that shapers' does (despite the different effects) while also helping in other matchups.
Regarding green sources: you forgot to add vial to your math. With 4 vial you have 14 green sources on turn 1. You may say that vial doesn't count because you have to play it first and kumena's second. However, the fact is that I always wanna cast vial before kumena, so it is a non-issue. I disagree about sage. If I have a vial I will hardly ever put it up to 3. Only if I have 2 I would consider that. And, once again, despite the math, I can cast Natural State often before turn 4. I'm not doubting Karsten' math, but that is probably an average that he calculated, while in many games you can play it sooner than the average. The only deck where I imagine being paramount to cast natural state before turn 4 is affinity, but I don't sideboard only natural state against them. I also have the pithing needles, and 2 dismembers.
I'm not Merfolk Joe's spokesperson or anything, I just thought I'd point out current news if you are going to discuss that.
Hey, thanks for the info! I don't usually go to reddit, so I only saw the last list he had in his youtube channel. I don't like his current list at all. It plays phantasmal image, fewer one drops, spell pierce main, etc. I really think it is not a great list. But hey, it is good to know that the mimics were no good. I could imagine that by the lack of synergy with silvergill and by the necessity of casting it before anything else, making it a poor topdeck.
The one thing he said that surprised me most is that pongify would be better than dismember and that having a 3/3 would be a non-issue. I can't agree with that assessment. I'm not saying pongify is worse than dismember, but a 3/3 is VERY relevant. A good chunk of decks where dismember does a fine job play lots of creatures and can easily kill you by attacking (when that is not its main plan). So having your opponent get a 3/3 is not as free as he seems to imply. Not to mention that... the 3/3 can also block! Anyway, I will eventually test pongify to see how that goes because I agree the life loss from dismember is very harmful, but I still wish for a better solution. I may even test vapor snag as it was suggested here.
Would you like to read Commander stories? Check my latest stories, coming from Lorwyn and Innistrad: Ghoulcaller Gisa and Doran, The Siege Tower! If you like my writing, ask me to write something for your commander as well!
Beat me to it regarding the Aether Vials and fixing the ability to play Speaker on turn 1.
Another thing to keep in mind about Karsten's math is that he gives a role for cantrips in the deck, and the numbers were calculated prior to the Scry-mulligan. This means that (a) you will have slightly better luck on the mulligan finding the related color, and (b) each cantrip should count as 1/4 a color source, provided you can cast it. Given the use of 4 Silvergill Adept, 4 Spreading Seas, and the contingency of 4 Branchwalker off your Vials/Caverns, you effectively have more than just 10 sources of G.
As for the 3/3 granted by Pognify or Rapid Hybridization, it can be relevant, but the format has a lot of Islands and you have a lot of Islandwalk. You also have bounce effects. Blocking is possible, but I'm not sure just how much of a problem it is in practice.
Merfolk in Standard is waiting for Rivals.
Merfolk in Modern, more or less, embraced UG.
Now, I am waiting for brave soul to make UG in Legacy, with 4 DRS to accelerate TNNs :), because U is drowning at the moment.
Speaking of UG, Nikachu played 2 Leagues in Modern and has 10-0, and from my own testing UG has a future.
Merfolk in Standard is waiting for Rivals.
Merfolk in Modern, more or less, embraced UG.
Now, I am waiting for brave soul to make UG in Legacy, with 4 DRS to accelerate TNNs :), because U is drowning at the moment.
Speaking of UG, Nikachu played 2 Leagues in Modern and has 10-0, and from my own testing UG has a future.
Rivals is bringing Silvergill Adept to Standard, so Merfolk in Standard is already looking better! Rivals will be an exciting spoiler season
So I've got a U merfolk deck that I play on and off. Was wondering if UG Merfolk was the real deal and if I should get the cards that I need for it? Played it a little bit on x-mage but I've yet to be really convinced, especially before Rivals of Ixalan is released.
UG feels more like pure aggro/
ballsgills to the wall than mono-U which has a more tempo approach.I can see a scenario where merfolk ends up similar to Eldrazi: Two versions (Bant or Tron) that have the same core, but with a different strategy and approach that you can use depending on the meta. The pendulum will probably shift from time to time as for which one is best.
And with Rivals (and don't forget Dominaria!) around the corner, it is indeed a great time to be a merfolk player right now. As far as I'm concerned I'm fully embracing both archetypes and I'm looking forward pushing their limits.
The proclamations of UG being the stock list going forward are a bit much, though. We’re nowhere near there yet. UG has made some strides on being considered in equal footing to mono-U, but until it starts spiking Grand Prix-caliber tournaments or Top8-ing tournaments of all kinds at a high rate, mono-U is still the default.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
Really suprised about this turn of events and my inability to properly evaluate it.
I am not against splashing, played UR Moonfolk at GP before, it was fun and now I will play UG Tropical Fish at GP Madrid in 6 weeks.
Which version is "stock" has no meaning to me as long as I Spread some lands and enjoy it.
No arguing that Branchwalker is good though, and I suspect this plus the SB options are really where the difference is coming from.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Pros never, ever get Merfolk - Im yet to see even one play the deck properly!! Except of course Nikachu
UWx control/midrange
Bant Eldrazi
What are they doing wrong, would yall say? I've seen people playing the deck inefficiently, but for the most part its pretty straight forward. Not mulliganing is just a result of a newish player making mistakes I'd say
I wanted to give a quick update. The last list I posted is here: http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/modern/tier-2-modern/648255-merfolk?page=353#c9068
As I said, 4 pithing needle and 4 natural state felt like too much. I went down to 3 and 3. That opened up two sideboard slots. So, here is the deal: I tested briefly shapers' sanctuary and immediately disliked it. The card was pretty mediocre due to the fact that you need to have it early for you to actually take advantage of its effect. I then asked what I wanted for that slot, and I realized the main problem I was having was with two types of decks: heavy control based decks with white that cast supreme verdict, and decks that plays removal and big creatures. I needed a card that could deal with supreme verdict for a cheap cost and maybe also help cover my bases with big creatures. That was rough. Then I remembered this one: unsubstantiate. I put 2 copies in the sideboard and they have been absolutely bonkers.
Seriously, card is great. Imagine the blowout of your opponent thinking they're clear to wipe your board with verdict and you put it back into his hand? And, of course, it does the same duty with other type of 'big spells' decks, such as tron, scapeshift with bring to light, ad nauseam, various through the breach decks, and even the regular cryptic command. It is also excellent to deal with suspend spells such as ancestral visions and delve creatures. Finally, you can bounce your own creature back to your hand to protect it from removal (which already came up in one match). I can't stress how good this card has been. I urge people who didn't test it: try it, especially if you're expecting a more controlish meta or a 'big spell' meta as I mentioned. I think it is good in a midrange meta as well, where you need it to tempo your opponent out. The flexibility from this card is amazing for such a cheap cost.
Aside from that important observation, I'm still testing the effectiveness of dismembers. They have been ok in most matchups. Not amazing, not too bad. The life loss reaaally hurts in some instances, and I wish there was something better. Seeing how my matchups develop, I'm a bit skeptical that pongify would do a better job in the slot, but I'm still willing to try it. Here is to hoping that something better than dismember comes along for us.
Last but not least, I saw that merfolk joe was experimenting a list that was very similar to mine mainboard wise, just slight changes in the manabase and metallic mimics in the place of reejereys. Honestly, I really like the reejereys due to their tap/untap shenanigans, especially with harbinger in the deck. However, I think I will test a version without the reejereys and with the mimics to see how that goes. I'm still having trouble beating lantern control. Game 1 feels like I'm an underdog and post sideboard I think I make poor keep decisions (keep hands without hate cards). That said, the affinity matchups have been great. I believe I'm 3-1 against affinity in number of matches won vs matches that I lost. Needle is excellent people. I truly recommend it over the counterspells I see many people rocking here in the thread (especially ceremonious rejection).
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
I posted awhile back that Merfolk Joe is off Metallic Mimics. Sited here https://www.reddit.com/r/FishMTG/comments/752zew/quick_simicfolk_update/
And here is his current list
https://www.reddit.com/r/FishMTG/comments/7971z4/merfolk_joes_current_ug_list_discuss/
I'm not Merfolk Joe's spokesperson or anything, I just thought I'd point out current news if you are going to discuss that.
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
Regarding sanctuary: if the card doesn't come in the opening hand, I wouldn't mull to it. Which means if I ever drew it later it would be a dead card, which happened. Sure you can say that, technically, the chances are low, but the upside of having 2 copies in the sideboard doesn't seem worth it to me. Especially given that the decks you're siding this card against also have ways to get rid of it. In any case, if you're having success with the card, that is great! I would still suggest testing unsubstantiate in the slot. I think it helps in the same matchups that shapers' does (despite the different effects) while also helping in other matchups.
Regarding green sources: you forgot to add vial to your math. With 4 vial you have 14 green sources on turn 1. You may say that vial doesn't count because you have to play it first and kumena's second. However, the fact is that I always wanna cast vial before kumena, so it is a non-issue. I disagree about sage. If I have a vial I will hardly ever put it up to 3. Only if I have 2 I would consider that. And, once again, despite the math, I can cast Natural State often before turn 4. I'm not doubting Karsten' math, but that is probably an average that he calculated, while in many games you can play it sooner than the average. The only deck where I imagine being paramount to cast natural state before turn 4 is affinity, but I don't sideboard only natural state against them. I also have the pithing needles, and 2 dismembers.Hey, thanks for the info! I don't usually go to reddit, so I only saw the last list he had in his youtube channel. I don't like his current list at all. It plays phantasmal image, fewer one drops, spell pierce main, etc. I really think it is not a great list. But hey, it is good to know that the mimics were no good. I could imagine that by the lack of synergy with silvergill and by the necessity of casting it before anything else, making it a poor topdeck.
The one thing he said that surprised me most is that pongify would be better than dismember and that having a 3/3 would be a non-issue. I can't agree with that assessment. I'm not saying pongify is worse than dismember, but a 3/3 is VERY relevant. A good chunk of decks where dismember does a fine job play lots of creatures and can easily kill you by attacking (when that is not its main plan). So having your opponent get a 3/3 is not as free as he seems to imply. Not to mention that... the 3/3 can also block! Anyway, I will eventually test pongify to see how that goes because I agree the life loss from dismember is very harmful, but I still wish for a better solution. I may even test vapor snag as it was suggested here.
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
Another thing to keep in mind about Karsten's math is that he gives a role for cantrips in the deck, and the numbers were calculated prior to the Scry-mulligan. This means that (a) you will have slightly better luck on the mulligan finding the related color, and (b) each cantrip should count as 1/4 a color source, provided you can cast it. Given the use of 4 Silvergill Adept, 4 Spreading Seas, and the contingency of 4 Branchwalker off your Vials/Caverns, you effectively have more than just 10 sources of G.
As for the 3/3 granted by Pognify or Rapid Hybridization, it can be relevant, but the format has a lot of Islands and you have a lot of Islandwalk. You also have bounce effects. Blocking is possible, but I'm not sure just how much of a problem it is in practice.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Merfolk in Modern, more or less, embraced UG.
Now, I am waiting for brave soul to make UG in Legacy, with 4 DRS to accelerate TNNs :), because U is drowning at the moment.
Speaking of UG, Nikachu played 2 Leagues in Modern and has 10-0, and from my own testing UG has a future.
Indeed: Professor at TCC just spoiled Silvergill Adept...in full art...as the Open House promo card...
U
WUBRGPeopleGRBUW
U Turbo Turns U
UB Fae BU
WBG Aristocrats GBW
Rivals is bringing Silvergill Adept to Standard, so Merfolk in Standard is already looking better! Rivals will be an exciting spoiler season
Death & Taxes
Fish
Teysa, Orzhov Scion
Roon of the Hidden Realm
Xenagos, God of Revels
So I've got a U merfolk deck that I play on and off. Was wondering if UG Merfolk was the real deal and if I should get the cards that I need for it? Played it a little bit on x-mage but I've yet to be really convinced, especially before Rivals of Ixalan is released.