Question...should we have any representation in the sideboard for the mirror? I have the 2 mainboard dismember, and had two echoing truth side...anything else? the mirror is such a hit or miss matchup...basically it's a race to see who can topdeck the fastest...the past weekend I ran into the mirror twice (which I have had NEVER happen), and sadly had to mull to 5 game three of both matches...I actually did have removal in hand, but at the critical end of both matches, both fish players had TWO cursecatcher on board, making my removal useless. I don't know if there's a general mindset in the mirror other than "have gas, go fast." Anyways, just curious.
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"I hope to have such a death—lying in triumph upon the broken bodies of those who slew me."
—Radha, Keldon warlord
Do you think Harbinger would be better left as a sideboard option in tropical fish?
Idk if it’s just me, but going tropical fish makes me think we are then just a bad Slivers or Humans deck. We are basically just a zoo deck in tropical fish. Am I looking at this wrong?
I was just messing with slivers and we are DEFINITELY better than slivers. Humans is a decent MU for UG Merfolk so I'm not sure what that says about Humans...
Harbinger is critical for corraling fast decks like Affinity and Burn, and is important to a lesser extent in interacting with the likes of Humans.
And yes, I believe that you are looking at this wrong. The key is that Tropical Fish is still a tempo deck - it has a more consistent early game than mono-U, but very much retains the tempo identity (just slanted more toward aggro). Cards like Harbinger are very important for this identity to be realized. You want to start fast and get ahead, but also have the ability to disrupt your opponent.
@tbone2177: The thing that I've been doing in the mirror is axing Seas for Natural State (for Vials/opposing Seas) and Echoing Truth (for general applications). It works pretty well in limited reps.
Wow Ari Lax, tell us how you really feel about Merfolk (granted this is more of a take on the Standard format, but I have a feeling he's tilting it more towards modern)
Merfolk
"Let me just speak my peace about this deck, and then everyone can get back to playing whatever they want and winning an arbitrary percentage of their matches.
Standard Merfolk is a million times more embarrassing than Modern Merfolk for all the same reasons.
Merfolk is a G/U deck. It is by default skewed towards sucking at interaction. It doesn't have some awesome free counterspell to save it. It isn't in the miracle position of all of its linear threats happening to be bigger than what they are crashing into. It isn't the G/U Madness deck of almost twenty years ago.
Merfolk is a pile of creatures that don't matter and a few that do. In the face of a midrange deck with some removal good enough to kill the real threats and some creatures better than the crappy cards, you are going to crumble. Great news: the default Standard deck for the last ten years has literally been a solid amount of good removal alongside some individually powerful threats. The other default strategies are more efficient creatures, and this time your giant Merfolk thing doesn't randomly have protection from red, and "removal or sweepers against your no-value-lands pile of 2/2s." These aren't good matchups either.
Your strategy is by default bad against Standard. Not the current Standard metagame, Standard as a generalized idea. Great job."
Same S@#$@, different day...another pro taking a swipe at the fish.
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"I hope to have such a death—lying in triumph upon the broken bodies of those who slew me."
—Radha, Keldon warlord
Harbinger is critical for corraling fast decks like Affinity and Burn, and is important to a lesser extent in interacting with the likes of Humans.
And yes, I believe that you are looking at this wrong. The key is that Tropical Fish is still a tempo deck - it has a more consistent early game than mono-U, but very much retains the tempo identity (just slanted more toward aggro). Cards like Harbinger are very important for this identity to be realized. You want to start fast and get ahead, but also have the ability to disrupt your opponent.
@tbone2177: The thing that I've been doing in the mirror is axing Seas for Natural State (for Vials/opposing Seas) and Echoing Truth (for general applications). It works pretty well in limited reps.
Most tropical fish lists I see drop Cursecatcher and Harbinger and any other tempo creatures. So if you’re building a Merfolk deck with all bigger fish and just lords, and Dismember for removal, how is it still considered tempo? Slivers have all lords and are somewhat faster due to company and vial together and haste and flying and etc etc etc. Merfolk just grow and have island walk. Humans have a lot more tricks that interact. So isn’t tropical fish inferior at that point? It’s slower and just my creature is bigger than yours. I’m basically just trying to make the case for Mono U still being superior. Splashing green just for Mistbinder I can get behind. But changing the entire deck for bigger fish just doesn’t seem like what we want to be doing. Right?
Maybe I just need to play it myself to get it.. just on paper it doesn’t make any sense.
If you drop those creatures, you are indeed a bad aggro deck. I'm not dropping those creatures, nor do I recommend that anyone do so. Incorporating Speaker and Mistbinder is frankly kind of easy - you shave some lands (don't need them now that you're curving out at 3), swap out the Master of Waves and whatever utility card you had in the spot I've been using for Watertrap Weaver, and boom. You're done. I also am soured on Branchwalker based on my experience with the card, so I don't recommend folks go that route either.
As to which is better... that remains to be seen. My testing is indicating that Tropical Fish should at least be considered as a variant, but I need more matches to really make a determination one way or the other. It's entirely possible that the answer is "it depends on the meta"; I can tell you that staring down something like classic Tron or Titanshift definitely feels more comfortable as Tropical Fish because of the faster clock, but Blood Moon can occasionally get you.
Master's still very good; there are plenty of red decks out there for it, and even if the opponent stands a chance of removing it, the army-in-a-can effect is still powerful. My mono-U list still runs 4, and I've 5-0'd with it twice in the last calendar month.
Wow Ari Lax, tell us how you really feel about Merfolk (granted this is more of a take on the Standard format, but I have a feeling he's tilting it more towards modern)
Merfolk
"Let me just speak my peace about this deck, and then everyone can get back to playing whatever they want and winning an arbitrary percentage of their matches.
Standard Merfolk is a million times more embarrassing than Modern Merfolk for all the same reasons.
Merfolk is a G/U deck. It is by default skewed towards sucking at interaction. It doesn't have some awesome free counterspell to save it. It isn't in the miracle position of all of its linear threats happening to be bigger than what they are crashing into. It isn't the G/U Madness deck of almost twenty years ago.
Merfolk is a pile of creatures that don't matter and a few that do. In the face of a midrange deck with some removal good enough to kill the real threats and some creatures better than the crappy cards, you are going to crumble. Great news: the default Standard deck for the last ten years has literally been a solid amount of good removal alongside some individually powerful threats. The other default strategies are more efficient creatures, and this time your giant Merfolk thing doesn't randomly have protection from red, and "removal or sweepers against your no-value-lands pile of 2/2s." These aren't good matchups either.
Your strategy is by default bad against Standard. Not the current Standard metagame, Standard as a generalized idea. Great job."
Same S@#$@, different day...another pro taking a swipe at the fish.
Yeah, not surprised. What else is new? Let's just work towards proving him and all other naysayers wrong in 2018. I'm not convinced by the, 'oh the deck is soft to sweepers' argument, nor the 'sucking at interaction' comment. Generalization here, but I think a lot of pros are dismissive of 'the school' because their pet deck (namely death shadow variants) are soft to fish, so it's a matter of influencing the field through suggestion.
Wow Ari Lax, tell us how you really feel about Merfolk (granted this is more of a take on the Standard format, but I have a feeling he's tilting it more towards modern)
Merfolk
"Let me just speak my peace about this deck, and then everyone can get back to playing whatever they want and winning an arbitrary percentage of their matches.
Standard Merfolk is a million times more embarrassing than Modern Merfolk for all the same reasons.
Merfolk is a G/U deck. It is by default skewed towards sucking at interaction. It doesn't have some awesome free counterspell to save it. It isn't in the miracle position of all of its linear threats happening to be bigger than what they are crashing into. It isn't the G/U Madness deck of almost twenty years ago.
Merfolk is a pile of creatures that don't matter and a few that do. In the face of a midrange deck with some removal good enough to kill the real threats and some creatures better than the crappy cards, you are going to crumble. Great news: the default Standard deck for the last ten years has literally been a solid amount of good removal alongside some individually powerful threats. The other default strategies are more efficient creatures, and this time your giant Merfolk thing doesn't randomly have protection from red, and "removal or sweepers against your no-value-lands pile of 2/2s." These aren't good matchups either.
Your strategy is by default bad against Standard. Not the current Standard metagame, Standard as a generalized idea. Great job."
Same S@#$@, different day...another pro taking a swipe at the fish.
He's right about Standard though. I tried different builds for it, before and after the ban namings, it just wasn't good enough. There might be a magic build to make it right or a third color is required for removal, but as UG it SUCKS. People are just blind to the new shiny toys.
That list seems... weird. It uses green for 3 extra Lords, a single CoCo, and a weak SB card? I feel like I'd rather ignore Blood Moon and play MoW, especially if I'm not benefiting from all the low-CC muscle green offers.
I think it's poorly constructed, and I have no idea how this pile even placed. Several of these cards have been tried in the past, and found very wanting. This is further testament to the fact that Merfolk's core is strong enough to support any random jank you choose to attach to it.
What are your thoughts on Admirals Order over Spell pierce in the blue builds. I feel like the potential to counter at 1 blue mana is strong. Worst case you counter anything for 3 mana.
Admiral's Order was brought up before. I don't think this is any better than Dispel, Negate, or Spell Pierce since it's only a 1 mana counter spell on your turn which means it'll be a situational Dispel most of the time. And cards worth Dispelling, like Cryptic Command, are usually cast before you declare attackers anyway. It can counter anything on your opponent's turn, but Cancel really isn't good enough. Holding up 3 mana on your opponent's turn is pretty awkward.
I also am soured on Branchwalker based on my experience with the card, so I don't recommend folks go that route either.
I hear this alot, and from a theoretical point of view, it just seems wierd (because the card seems to be essentially Silvergill Adept.
In situations where a +1/+1 counter + "scry" has the same value as a non-land card (and when you are never paying the silvergill tax) they are exactly equal.
It's probably because the +1/+1 counter doesn't mean anything in the format.
I also am soured on Branchwalker based on my experience with the card, so I don't recommend folks go that route either.
I hear this alot, and from a theoretical point of view, it just seems wierd (because the card seems to be essentially Silvergill Adept.
In situations where a +1/+1 counter + "scry" has the same value as a non-land card (and when you are never paying the silvergill tax) they are exactly equal.
It's probably because the +1/+1 counter doesn't mean anything in the format.
It's not even close to Silvergill Adept. Always getting a card to your hand that is unknown to your opponent is much better than sometimes getting a land in your hand and sometimes getting a +1/+1 counter and giving your opponent a bunch of information with very little control over how it all plays out. The fact that you have to reveal the card is honestly a pretty big downside over Adept. It gives your opponent a lot to work with. The +1/+1 counter can be relevant sometimes but the unreliability is a strike against it.
As for Admiral's Order, it's complete trash in my opinion. 3 mana is way too much for a counterspell and the 1 mana mode is far too narrow and too easy to play around, especially if your opponent sees it coming. I'd rather have Dispel and be able to use it before declare attackers or on my opponent's turn since that's what Order is going to be the vast majority of the time.
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—Radha, Keldon warlord
Idk if it’s just me, but going tropical fish makes me think we are then just a bad Slivers or Humans deck. We are basically just a zoo deck in tropical fish. Am I looking at this wrong?
And yes, I believe that you are looking at this wrong. The key is that Tropical Fish is still a tempo deck - it has a more consistent early game than mono-U, but very much retains the tempo identity (just slanted more toward aggro). Cards like Harbinger are very important for this identity to be realized. You want to start fast and get ahead, but also have the ability to disrupt your opponent.
@tbone2177: The thing that I've been doing in the mirror is axing Seas for Natural State (for Vials/opposing Seas) and Echoing Truth (for general applications). It works pretty well in limited reps.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
Merfolk
"Let me just speak my peace about this deck, and then everyone can get back to playing whatever they want and winning an arbitrary percentage of their matches.
Standard Merfolk is a million times more embarrassing than Modern Merfolk for all the same reasons.
Merfolk is a G/U deck. It is by default skewed towards sucking at interaction. It doesn't have some awesome free counterspell to save it. It isn't in the miracle position of all of its linear threats happening to be bigger than what they are crashing into. It isn't the G/U Madness deck of almost twenty years ago.
Merfolk is a pile of creatures that don't matter and a few that do. In the face of a midrange deck with some removal good enough to kill the real threats and some creatures better than the crappy cards, you are going to crumble. Great news: the default Standard deck for the last ten years has literally been a solid amount of good removal alongside some individually powerful threats. The other default strategies are more efficient creatures, and this time your giant Merfolk thing doesn't randomly have protection from red, and "removal or sweepers against your no-value-lands pile of 2/2s." These aren't good matchups either.
Your strategy is by default bad against Standard. Not the current Standard metagame, Standard as a generalized idea. Great job."
Same S@#$@, different day...another pro taking a swipe at the fish.
—Radha, Keldon warlord
Most tropical fish lists I see drop Cursecatcher and Harbinger and any other tempo creatures. So if you’re building a Merfolk deck with all bigger fish and just lords, and Dismember for removal, how is it still considered tempo? Slivers have all lords and are somewhat faster due to company and vial together and haste and flying and etc etc etc. Merfolk just grow and have island walk. Humans have a lot more tricks that interact. So isn’t tropical fish inferior at that point? It’s slower and just my creature is bigger than yours. I’m basically just trying to make the case for Mono U still being superior. Splashing green just for Mistbinder I can get behind. But changing the entire deck for bigger fish just doesn’t seem like what we want to be doing. Right?
Maybe I just need to play it myself to get it.. just on paper it doesn’t make any sense.
As to which is better... that remains to be seen. My testing is indicating that Tropical Fish should at least be considered as a variant, but I need more matches to really make a determination one way or the other. It's entirely possible that the answer is "it depends on the meta"; I can tell you that staring down something like classic Tron or Titanshift definitely feels more comfortable as Tropical Fish because of the faster clock, but Blood Moon can occasionally get you.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
Thank you, that’s exactly what I’m trying to say.
On a side note, is Master of Waves completely done?
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
Yeah, not surprised. What else is new? Let's just work towards proving him and all other naysayers wrong in 2018. I'm not convinced by the, 'oh the deck is soft to sweepers' argument, nor the 'sucking at interaction' comment. Generalization here, but I think a lot of pros are dismissive of 'the school' because their pet deck (namely death shadow variants) are soft to fish, so it's a matter of influencing the field through suggestion.
He's right about Standard though. I tried different builds for it, before and after the ban namings, it just wasn't good enough. There might be a magic build to make it right or a third color is required for removal, but as UG it SUCKS. People are just blind to the new shiny toys.
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
U Merfolk
UBR Delver
That list seems... weird. It uses green for 3 extra Lords, a single CoCo, and a weak SB card? I feel like I'd rather ignore Blood Moon and play MoW, especially if I'm not benefiting from all the low-CC muscle green offers.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
That said, the 4x Chalice of the Void seem spicy and probably meant free wins against several decks, but I think I'd rather have counterspells.
WBC Eldrazi & Taxes CBW
UR Keep on Cantripin' (UR Phoenix) RU
WU Surprise! It's not UW Control! (UW Midrange) UW
BG The Rock, Straight BG
U Mono-Blue Fish U
RBW Mardu Pyromancer BWR
RG Rabble! Rabble! (GR Blood Moon Aggro) GR
Legacy
W Death & Taxes W
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
I hear this alot, and from a theoretical point of view, it just seems wierd (because the card seems to be essentially Silvergill Adept.
In situations where a +1/+1 counter + "scry" has the same value as a non-land card (and when you are never paying the silvergill tax) they are exactly equal.
It's probably because the +1/+1 counter doesn't mean anything in the format.
It's not even close to Silvergill Adept. Always getting a card to your hand that is unknown to your opponent is much better than sometimes getting a land in your hand and sometimes getting a +1/+1 counter and giving your opponent a bunch of information with very little control over how it all plays out. The fact that you have to reveal the card is honestly a pretty big downside over Adept. It gives your opponent a lot to work with. The +1/+1 counter can be relevant sometimes but the unreliability is a strike against it.
As for Admiral's Order, it's complete trash in my opinion. 3 mana is way too much for a counterspell and the 1 mana mode is far too narrow and too easy to play around, especially if your opponent sees it coming. I'd rather have Dispel and be able to use it before declare attackers or on my opponent's turn since that's what Order is going to be the vast majority of the time.