I like the look of the Warden, but I just don't think the Modern deck can cast it reliably. I also think Mistbinder just incentivizes ticking the curve down too much to want to stretch my manabase to oblivion for a 3-drop.
I know it is unconventional, but I think there is merit to test a build of merfolk with zero mutavaults in the main.
As many people suggested here, I think the obvious change coming from the new set for tropical merfolk is just swap merrow reejerey for mistbinder and see where that leads us. That said, I think there is merit in trying a robust 2-color manabase (something akin to 4-cavern, 4-territory, 4-sanctum and some number of breeding pools/fetchlands/maybeoneortwo basics), and then we can accomodate the new 1GG three drop, maybe Kumena or maybe the 1GG double explore card.
The obvious downsides are being punished with blood moon, losing mutavault as insurance against board wipes and losing access to most of our sideboard cards. We would have to tinker the sideboard so it is mostly creatures and artifacts, so the mana base doesn't destroy us. I think it can be done. Some mix of relic of progenitus, dismembers, Kumenas, Kopalas and even Copters is probably reasonable.
That said, as Rothgar pointed out, it may be too much trouble for too little payoff. I would be curious to see how this mutavault-less build would perform though.
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How do you feel about 2xKira/Kopala vs 2xMOW? Thanks for posting the list btw. @FANAttIC
I personally love Kopala and run 2. Master of Waves pisses me off 9 times out of 10. I either can’t get to 4 lands to drop it, or when I spend my turn casting it, they just Fatal Push or Path it
Even if I run four cavern of souls? With four of those, two breeding pool and four botanical sanctum, that's ten cards for the double green, not to mention the vial, WHICH I'd rather have on two, but whatever.
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"I hope to have such a death—lying in triumph upon the broken bodies of those who slew me."
—Radha, Keldon warlord
@ ditching Mutavaults in UG, if that is "proper" for "optimal" UG list, I am not switching from mono U.
This display of stubbornness is what discourages me (and others, I am sure) to post on this forum.
I made an analysis with upsides and downsides. I think the UG 'lower to the ground' list has to be tested, yes. However, it is undeniable that the most interesting merfolk from Rivals came with a double green cost attached to them. You may sit there kicking and screaming or you may try to adapt your manabase and see if they are worth it. That's all.
Finally, if the optimal UG list doesn't run mutavaults and ends up being adopted as the stock merfolk list, are you not going to switch? Are you going to stick with a suboptimal list because of your personal feelings towards particular cards? I thought this was the competitive forum, after all.
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That was my opinion from competitive standpoint, I fully intend on winning and don't see how future Merfolk list could be better without Mutavaults.
Branchwalker was not up to snuff in the end (it is possible it isn't even good for Standard), Speaker is not enough to destroy my manabase, this is what I think about green splash at this moment. Played UG for months, returned to U because it wasn't better.
None of the GG Merfolk will go into my future list because I don't believe they are better than any other option.
Kumena itself seems great and new uncommon Lord seems ok, but those are not reasons to start cutting lands that are a great threat in our deck.
Merfolk started to take shape from Lorwyn, 10 years ago, and all Merfolk successes contained 4 Mutavaults, for obvious reasons.
Recognizing the strength of that card is based of data, not my personal opinion on sacred cow.
If nonMutavault list becomes stock I am fully prepared to admit I was wrong, and switch of course.
How well did the Mana Leaks work? I'm never a fan of conditional counters (usually using Negate, unless the meta blatantly calls for another 1U counter) but I'd love to be convinced to try them.
Also, regarding UG. It seems that the deck's puzzle is only missing 1 piece to come together. With the fact that merfolks were introduced late in Ixlaham and with Dominaria around the corner, there will be more testing coming in 2018. But right now, something's missing.
No counterspell is perfect so I wanted something that could answer expected meta (Lantern, Affinity, Tron, Etron, Valakut, Storm, Burn and random grindy decks like Jeskai and BG decks).
Disdainful Stroke could not answer Bridge, Oblivion, Anger, Liliana, Explosives and various Burn spells.
Unified is crapshot, sometimes hard counter, other blank.
Negate is short on ETron dudes, Primeval Titan, Wurmcoil, Ballista, Storm accelerator, Snapcaster... but mostly Primeval, I hate losing to that guy and having zero counters for him is not my plan.
Leak is not expected from our deck and actually worked great in concert with Dispel or Rejection, relative to what matchup I was having.
I could name what it countered but there is no point, we all know what Mana Leak can and can't do. We all live with our choices.
Just for argument's sake, 4 Cavern, 4 Rainforest, 4 Botanical, 2 Pool, 2 Forest, 2 Island, 2 Mutavault effectively gets you 16 each of U and G sources. While that's not perfectly ideal for UU on turn 2 and GG on turn 3, it's probably close enough with Vial.
@Ashiok: Yes, this is a competitive forum. I'll answer your statements with other ones, just to support what FANAttIC said. It is not stubbornness, it's a conception of the game. Mutavault and manlands gives decks different angles from with whom you can develop your game thanks to your manlands. Yes, manlands became weaker in general with the printing of fatal push, but even though they are still strong to 1-to-1 removal. You have a 30-creature-deck facing a 30-removal-deck. You would still win the one-to-one card game thanks to your manlands. Sometimes it's a little awkward spending removal to kill a land, because you need to hit other targets. The ability they have to switch from one type of card to another is too strong. Think how this protect them from wraths and cards like abrupt decay. How they dodge cryptic command tap, how they present a clock your opponent needs to deal with, and I could go on. Manlands in decks like UW control are powerful. Manlands in decks like Affinity wins you a lot, lot of games. We are not the only deck that tries to include them if they have the chance. Now think of a land that syngergizes with a bunch of cards that our deck has. If this is not pure value, I don't know what it is.
Yes, you wanna go and try some new toys FC gave the tribe, go ahead. Brewers innovate the game and I think we all will be testing some of them. But think how it is not stubbornness to say that losing one of our keycards just to try some other not-as-consistent base is, to the eye, a weaker build. Results will have the last word, I hope you are right and come back to say "I told you everyone, I was right" if that gives you satisfaction. If this makes the deck improve, it will be welcomed by everyone.
I believe all players on this forum know what Mutavault is and how important it is, this is not a topic.
Some wants to make more evenly split maindeck with UU, UG and GG costs, which does require Mutavault reduction, but my point is: none of the GG cards are worth it and removing Mutavaults is to high of a price.
We have stable decks (both U and UG) before Rivals. After it, builds will change because some fun cards are printed, except Rivals didn't bring pure power that demands hit in stability.
@pabloduque32 respectfully, I know what manlands do. I also know what mutavault does for the deck. However, it is pointless to have mutavaults in play if they are making you unable to cast your spells because you're playing multiple colored costs in your card. This is the simple point I was trying to make in case someone wanted to test swift warden and/or jadelight ranger.
And yes, it is stuborness because of the way FANAttiC said. He basically said that if an optimal list of UG arises that does not play mutavault he wouldn't make the switch. How do you call that? He later clarified by saying that he doesn't THINK that a list without mutavaults would be optimal. Point taken. I know that is the common knowledge and that's why I said my suggestion was unconventional.
Whay annoys me here is that there is few productive discussion when trying to innovate. The environment is one that stifles innovation, because everyone is entrenched in their conceptions of what is the ideal list. I'm not saying my suggestion is groundbreaking or revolutionary either, just said I think it is worth seeing if the new cards make the deck better. They may suck, they may not. The suggestion of lord_darkview of a possible manabase to accomodate double GG and UU cards is a much more productive direction to move towards, imo. Certainly there is an article in manabases somewhere that specify the amount of colored sources of a color you must play to accomodate double colored cards.
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I think that, as much as Mutavault is great in the Basic deck, Ashiok may be right about certain tropical variants playing with lower counts or without them. The deck may finally have enough cheap Merfolk and/or good Merfolk requiring GG that the threat density is still sufficiently high to simply hold back something to flash/Vial in against point-removal or following a Wrath of God. It's worth testing, though I won't be the one to do it.
@Ashiok I feel like this battle happened before. Just because you present an idea doesn't mean everyone needs to follow your lead on discussion. FANAttIC dismisses it, Lord_Darkview contributed, so continue your conversation with the people who are contributing and quit trying to change FANAttIC's and anyone else who doesn't buy in's mind.
My thoughts are that to support GG, you're probably right and will have to give up Mutavault. So the question becomes, is GG1 flash give a guy hexproof better than any number of Mutavault? I think we can still run Mistbinder with 2-3 Mutavault in the list, but if we need to hit GG then Mutavault probably does need to go, and is it worth it?
@Ashiok I feel like this battle happened before. Just because you present an idea doesn't mean everyone needs to follow your lead on discussion. FANAttIC dismisses it, Lord_Darkview contributed, so continue your conversation with the people who are contributing and quit trying to change FANAttIC's and anyone else who doesn't buy in's mind.
My thoughts are that to support GG, you're probably right and will have to give up Mutavault. So the question becomes, is GG1 flash give a guy hexproof better than any number of Mutavault? I think we can still run Mistbinder with 2-3 Mutavault in the list, but if we need to hit GG then Mutavault probably does need to go, and is it worth it?
Honestly, I don't think it will pan out. I think it may improve certain matchups against control/grindy decks. What I like about warden and jadelight ranger is that they seem to address problems of the U/G list: namely the difficulty in coming back from behind and the lack of interaction*. Warden is a powerful trick to have, in my view, and jadelight is pretty decent card selection/advantage. That said, modern is not a format of grindy decks going at each other. It is a very open format with plenty of prison/hard control/combo decks. In this, I feel like a 'bigger' U/G list would lack the tools to win on game 1 and would severely compromise its sideboard plans due to the mana base.
What is needed is some 'catch-all' creature like kitesail freebooter and/or meddling mage, like Humans have access too. That, or a 1-drop as efficient as champion of the parish so the plan of just racing becomes realistic. The way I see it, we're still dependant on strong sideboard answers against decks that are build to stomp on creature by controlling or racing them (lantern control, G/B tron, grishoalbrand, etc.). I feel the green creatures certainly can improve matchups against some control decks and the more midrangey decks, but the main weaknesses remain unadressed. The new GG merfolk are good merfolk in my view, but we need more elements in the toolbox. The great merit I see in monoblue list is that its plan is very consistent across the board: bring in counterspells for games 2 and 3, and essentially become a 'delver' deck. Play one or two threats and try to hold the fort with counters. That is a simplified notion, of course, but counterspells are good because they are a general interaction that address basically anything, which is a very good compliment for an otherwise aggro deck that can barely address anything.
*The interaction brought by warden is very good, but it is only reactive. The lack of proactive interaction in merfolk is the main issue here.
EDIT: however, all this is quite theoretical. That's the reason why I would like to see the deck working. Mistbinder falls in the category of cards that do not address at all any of the problems merfolk face, but it can be moving the deck towards a better direction just by virtue of making it better at racing. It has become clear that the U/G deck is a bit more of a glass cannon: if it doesn't take the lead from the very beggining of the game, it will fall behind. That is by no means a problem in magic. There are plenty of decks that work in the same way.
Would you like to read Commander stories? Check my latest stories, coming from Lorwyn and Innistrad: Ghoulcaller Gisa and Doran, The Siege Tower! If you like my writing, ask me to write something for your commander as well!
I think lord_darkview's manabase is going to be as good as it gets when it comes to incorporation of the 1GG cost of the Warden, but even than that's negating one of the major strengths of the Tropical Fish in that it will require 20 lands, which makes you more likely to flood. Functionally, it's probably pretty close to 18 land 0 Mutavault, which I (and others) consider an unacceptable concession. It also makes you soft as Charmin to nonbasic land hate, which I don't fancy.
I've just played against a spicy humans deck playing Descendants' Path...
Anybody thinks this might be good as a 2 of or something like that? Nice synergy with the Explore from Branchwalker.
I get that it "doesn't do anything when you cast it", but being an enchantment it is likely to stick around for a couple of turns at least, and if we can handle that initial loss of tempo, the investment will be recovered soon I think, putting extra lands, vials, etc to the bottom or giving us free creatures, we'll draw gas a lot more consistenly. Thoughts?
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Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
As many people suggested here, I think the obvious change coming from the new set for tropical merfolk is just swap merrow reejerey for mistbinder and see where that leads us. That said, I think there is merit in trying a robust 2-color manabase (something akin to 4-cavern, 4-territory, 4-sanctum and some number of breeding pools/fetchlands/maybeoneortwo basics), and then we can accomodate the new 1GG three drop, maybe Kumena or maybe the 1GG double explore card.
The obvious downsides are being punished with blood moon, losing mutavault as insurance against board wipes and losing access to most of our sideboard cards. We would have to tinker the sideboard so it is mostly creatures and artifacts, so the mana base doesn't destroy us. I think it can be done. Some mix of relic of progenitus, dismembers, Kumenas, Kopalas and even Copters is probably reasonable.
That said, as Rothgar pointed out, it may be too much trouble for too little payoff. I would be curious to see how this mutavault-less build would perform though.
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
I personally love Kopala and run 2. Master of Waves pisses me off 9 times out of 10. I either can’t get to 4 lands to drop it, or when I spend my turn casting it, they just Fatal Push or Path it
He is a Merfolk player so his name has to be with lowercase...
Our list differ in 2 creatures and his interaction is 3 Pierce instead of 3 Dismember, so my choices are not so bad.
@ ditching Mutavaults in UG, if that is "proper" for "optimal" UG list, I am not switching from mono U.
—Radha, Keldon warlord
I made an analysis with upsides and downsides. I think the UG 'lower to the ground' list has to be tested, yes. However, it is undeniable that the most interesting merfolk from Rivals came with a double green cost attached to them. You may sit there kicking and screaming or you may try to adapt your manabase and see if they are worth it. That's all.
Finally, if the optimal UG list doesn't run mutavaults and ends up being adopted as the stock merfolk list, are you not going to switch? Are you going to stick with a suboptimal list because of your personal feelings towards particular cards? I thought this was the competitive forum, after all.
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
Branchwalker was not up to snuff in the end (it is possible it isn't even good for Standard), Speaker is not enough to destroy my manabase, this is what I think about green splash at this moment. Played UG for months, returned to U because it wasn't better.
None of the GG Merfolk will go into my future list because I don't believe they are better than any other option.
Kumena itself seems great and new uncommon Lord seems ok, but those are not reasons to start cutting lands that are a great threat in our deck.
Merfolk started to take shape from Lorwyn, 10 years ago, and all Merfolk successes contained 4 Mutavaults, for obvious reasons.
Recognizing the strength of that card is based of data, not my personal opinion on sacred cow.
If nonMutavault list becomes stock I am fully prepared to admit I was wrong, and switch of course.
How well did the Mana Leaks work? I'm never a fan of conditional counters (usually using Negate, unless the meta blatantly calls for another 1U counter) but I'd love to be convinced to try them.
Also, regarding UG. It seems that the deck's puzzle is only missing 1 piece to come together. With the fact that merfolks were introduced late in Ixlaham and with Dominaria around the corner, there will be more testing coming in 2018. But right now, something's missing.
Disdainful Stroke could not answer Bridge, Oblivion, Anger, Liliana, Explosives and various Burn spells.
Unified is crapshot, sometimes hard counter, other blank.
Negate is short on ETron dudes, Primeval Titan, Wurmcoil, Ballista, Storm accelerator, Snapcaster... but mostly Primeval, I hate losing to that guy and having zero counters for him is not my plan.
Leak is not expected from our deck and actually worked great in concert with Dispel or Rejection, relative to what matchup I was having.
I could name what it countered but there is no point, we all know what Mana Leak can and can't do. We all live with our choices.
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Yes, you wanna go and try some new toys FC gave the tribe, go ahead. Brewers innovate the game and I think we all will be testing some of them. But think how it is not stubbornness to say that losing one of our keycards just to try some other not-as-consistent base is, to the eye, a weaker build. Results will have the last word, I hope you are right and come back to say "I told you everyone, I was right" if that gives you satisfaction. If this makes the deck improve, it will be welcomed by everyone.
Cheers,
RBridgevineB
RGR/G EldraziX
UBlue MoonR
UU/W TronW
Some wants to make more evenly split maindeck with UU, UG and GG costs, which does require Mutavault reduction, but my point is: none of the GG cards are worth it and removing Mutavaults is to high of a price.
We have stable decks (both U and UG) before Rivals. After it, builds will change because some fun cards are printed, except Rivals didn't bring pure power that demands hit in stability.
And yes, it is stuborness because of the way FANAttiC said. He basically said that if an optimal list of UG arises that does not play mutavault he wouldn't make the switch. How do you call that? He later clarified by saying that he doesn't THINK that a list without mutavaults would be optimal. Point taken. I know that is the common knowledge and that's why I said my suggestion was unconventional.
Whay annoys me here is that there is few productive discussion when trying to innovate. The environment is one that stifles innovation, because everyone is entrenched in their conceptions of what is the ideal list. I'm not saying my suggestion is groundbreaking or revolutionary either, just said I think it is worth seeing if the new cards make the deck better. They may suck, they may not. The suggestion of lord_darkview of a possible manabase to accomodate double GG and UU cards is a much more productive direction to move towards, imo. Certainly there is an article in manabases somewhere that specify the amount of colored sources of a color you must play to accomodate double colored cards.
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
My thoughts are that to support GG, you're probably right and will have to give up Mutavault. So the question becomes, is GG1 flash give a guy hexproof better than any number of Mutavault? I think we can still run Mistbinder with 2-3 Mutavault in the list, but if we need to hit GG then Mutavault probably does need to go, and is it worth it?
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
What is needed is some 'catch-all' creature like kitesail freebooter and/or meddling mage, like Humans have access too. That, or a 1-drop as efficient as champion of the parish so the plan of just racing becomes realistic. The way I see it, we're still dependant on strong sideboard answers against decks that are build to stomp on creature by controlling or racing them (lantern control, G/B tron, grishoalbrand, etc.). I feel the green creatures certainly can improve matchups against some control decks and the more midrangey decks, but the main weaknesses remain unadressed. The new GG merfolk are good merfolk in my view, but we need more elements in the toolbox. The great merit I see in monoblue list is that its plan is very consistent across the board: bring in counterspells for games 2 and 3, and essentially become a 'delver' deck. Play one or two threats and try to hold the fort with counters. That is a simplified notion, of course, but counterspells are good because they are a general interaction that address basically anything, which is a very good compliment for an otherwise aggro deck that can barely address anything.
*The interaction brought by warden is very good, but it is only reactive. The lack of proactive interaction in merfolk is the main issue here.
EDIT: however, all this is quite theoretical. That's the reason why I would like to see the deck working. Mistbinder falls in the category of cards that do not address at all any of the problems merfolk face, but it can be moving the deck towards a better direction just by virtue of making it better at racing. It has become clear that the U/G deck is a bit more of a glass cannon: if it doesn't take the lead from the very beggining of the game, it will fall behind. That is by no means a problem in magic. There are plenty of decks that work in the same way.
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
Anybody thinks this might be good as a 2 of or something like that? Nice synergy with the Explore from Branchwalker.
I get that it "doesn't do anything when you cast it", but being an enchantment it is likely to stick around for a couple of turns at least, and if we can handle that initial loss of tempo, the investment will be recovered soon I think, putting extra lands, vials, etc to the bottom or giving us free creatures, we'll draw gas a lot more consistenly. Thoughts?