I have been playing a decent amount with death and taxes, and I find it funny the criticism that the death and taxes matchup got harder. Leonin arbiter can only fall on turn 2, so even if you a fetch land in hand you will have the opportunity to crack it before the arbiter hits play. I honestly don't understand what is the problem that people are having against Death and Taxes.
Blood Moon is a real issue though. I think more so to us because, without vial, it automatically locks all mutavaults and all green spells in your hand. If you have just one basic island in play, it also locks a good chunk of the blue spells. I can absolutely agree that a meta full of blood moons is a meta where monoblue might fare better. I'm just not sure how prevalent such a meta is.
The rest of the complaints in the reddit thread don't make much sense to me: if you lose to RG ponza is because the deck is removal spells + land destruction. It is certainly not an easy matchup. I suppose some lists play blood moon main, which might be what puts it over the top. People complaining about losing to scapeshift: it is a hard matchup for merfolk, no matter what list you're talking about. Finally, burn: green has some of the best sideboard spells against burn. If people are losing to burn is because they chose not to address this problem on sideboard.
Aside from that, I disagree from the beggining with people who cut cursecatchers from the tropical fish list. I think the slot where people are playing phantasmal images/kiras/kopalas should be a slot for cursecatchers/interaction.
Regardless, I feel like the complain about blood moon on the mana base is valid, but I'm not sure to what extent. Most decks in modern play with more than one color, and players have learned to play around stuff that hurts their mana base. For christ sake, the humans deck is the most fragile thing ever against blood moon, and it is putting up results. I'm not sure how much of these bad u/g results are just merfolk players unwilling to reconsider their patterns of play to avoid getting screwed by their manabase.
100% concur.
I'm not as seasoned as my peers in the 'school', but I feel this division among the fish, and the now in vogue dismissal of tropical fish comes down to a lack of understanding our sideboard selection and play patterns with tropical fish. I can't say which is 'better', nor do I think anyone truly can at this point. There's more to any cut of folk than meets the eye, and consider for a moment how long it took you to become master of the mono-blue wave, months, a year, perhaps longer? Tropical Fish has only truly been an option for a couple of months. Learn the lines, learn the differences in sideboard with a new color, learn the differences in sequencing your land drops, and yes, pay attention to how you tap your mana. I'm not trying to be condescending, but these lines matter, and the context of a specific match up makes a difference. With tropical fish you have more than blue and mutavaults to tap, and it matters.
Cursecatcher is absolutely worth it in the tropical fish deck, at least for me. How many, that's probably up to personal and meta preference, however, I think three to four is the right number. It's great to be able to consistently vial in something on one and utilize the two mana for adept, branchwalker, or counterspell if the match up requires.
If blood moon is a problem, then run swan song. It's a completely relevant sideboard option as a two to three of, along with nature's claim. Maybe one needs to be more selective in your mulligans, in a blood moon match up. Plan ahead at the beginning of the match, ask yourself what happens to this hand if they drop a turn three bloood moon? Will I have enough pressure, will my lands get me there, if I prioritize this fetch, or that fetch will that be enough to mitigate it?
I've had good, yet modest, success with Tropical Fish at my LGS. In my opinion the deck consistently feels faster, and more powerful. Fetches are a must, in my opinion, and make a considerable difference. If you're that scared of bloodmoon, run a forrest in the board or main along with the misty rainforests in the main. I don't think it's a stretch on the deck to run 20 lands.
Just my thoughts, but I get that others might not share my sentiment.
Can we please move on from this argument over which is "best"? I think most of us see that UG fish has some merit to it, but that doesn't mean all of a sudden mono blue is bad. Please try and keep discussions to whichever deck you prefers card selection, like why you would run more or less cursecatchers in UG or watertrap weaver in mono blue. It's really obnoxious to see these passive aggressive jabs at each other every time someone asks which version is better. I think the fact that we're having these arguments over and over points out that both decks are powerful.
Over in the Elves forum there are no arguments like this between GW or GB. People play what they like and they discuss their card choices for whatever deck they're on. This particular forum has become so toxic from a few users that it's almost depressing to read.
Can we please move on from this argument over which is "best"? I think most of us see that UG fish has some merit to it, but that doesn't mean all of a sudden mono blue is bad. Please try and keep discussions to whichever deck you prefers card selection, like why you would run more or less cursecatchers in UG or watertrap weaver in mono blue. It's really obnoxious to see these passive aggressive jabs at each other every time someone asks which version is better. I think the fact that we're having these arguments over and over points out that both decks are powerful.
Over in the Elves forum there are no arguments like this between GW or GB. People play what they like and they discuss their card choices for whatever deck they're on. This particular forum has become so toxic from a few users that it's almost depressing to read.
On that note, have people tried Watertrap in the simic version of Merfolk? It's clear that the card enables you to be more aggressive, and when you have 1 mana 2/2s and 2 mana 3/2s it seems like it would be a decent fit, I do understand that slots are an issue tho. I put in one in my Tropical list but did not get a chance to play it last week. Even though it is another pretty decent target for Phantasmal Image, maybe I will cut one image for a second Watertrap. I feel like 3 is where i would go, four might be too much with a playset of Merrows as well.
The reason the arguments are happening is because the splash is so new and couple people here are militant about it. You make a good point about it being a preference thing. Earlier in the thread rothgar (who has great contributions all the time) said the decks were so similar that there could be all encompassing conversation about them. Having played both, I kind of disagree. For example I play blue because it’s less “all in” and while still an aggro deck, feels more like the midrange/tempoish approach that I’ve always enjoyed playing. Honestly, I don’t splash green because it’s too aggressive for my taste and don’t enjoy it. I think it is strong but more of glass cannon than U and I just hate losing with decks like that. I also play control which is telling. I think I good topic of discussion when comparing the decks for someone looking to pick the “better” one would be a meta game examination to decifer if the more aggressive or more midrange version of the deck is better positioned.
These are exactly my thoughts. A couple users here are taking it personally that some choose one over the other and I feel like the vitriol still pops up subtly in their posts, and it's ridiculous. No one has anything to prove. No single poster here invented the UG archetype. Of course there was a first person to post about it, but ever single merfolk player saw the green cards that were released and thought logically about how they would impact us. I've played both now as well and I feel more comfortable piloting the mono blue version. I was skeptical about UG at first, but I finally sleeved it up and have accepted its power, but I don't feel that it made mono U inferior or a worse deck. In fact I'm back on to mono U. I'm waiting to see if Rivals adds anything to push either build up a notch. No matter what happens though we should be celebrating the diversity of the deck instead of beating our chests about which is better. Our enemies are non-fish decks and whether you're into UG or mono U, we should be helping each other advance which ever school one chooses.
*edit* If you want to see what civil discussion of two different decks looks like, check out the elves forum. I keep harping on it, but only because it is what I'm familiar with. From the very beginning I can't recall any argument as toxic as this forum has been over GB vs GW. There was definitely discussion about the strengths and weaknesses of each were, but everyone was supportive of whatever anyone chose to play and talked about the cards that help shore up each versions weaknesses.
I will check it out. The merfolk community in general is extremely defensive because pros hate on the deck constantly and whenever one of them streams with it they play it entirely incorrectly and are like "why does anyone use this?!?!?". Maybe we all have complexes because of that. I've learned to ignore it for the most part. I remember that "top decks in modern" article where I'm pretty sure we were ranked behind slivers, living end, hexproof and other decks no one even plays anymore. The least we could do is not hate on each other.
Lol you literally have 2 posts so I think you're safe. Also, I'm not trying to be passive aggressive in my post about people being passive aggressive. I just want people to mellow out when they reply to people who ask "which is the best version of merfolk?"
This situation is funny. Basically someone is complaining about people who, in their mind, are also complaining. I will momentarily bite: the people who had a strong counter-reaction to the UG list were some of the usual visitors of this forum, it was not the other way around. Period. You can go back and read the forum for yourself. Saying that the UG people are 'militant' about their list is basically saying their reaction is unwarranted, when I think it is a mere natural response after some initial comments on tropical fish were that it was a 'hodgepodge of laughable cards'.
Finally, not sure if the comment was directed towards me or not, but I think I pretty clearly was trying to answer the question that was posed here regarding which list people are favoring and why. And then, when the reddit forum was brought up, I merely argued against the points that I thought were valid or invalid. Saying that people are militant or toxic is what bogs down the forum, imho.
In any case, I'm seeing Nikachu's recent videos with the monoblue list from Rothgar using watertrap weaver, and I kinda like it. It is surprising how such an effect can be so powerful. The only issues that I have with it are the same I have with harbinger: it is bad against control and the effect without vial is a little less appealing. Additionally, the body feels kinda mediocre, being a 2/2 for 3. That said, I can certainly see taking the slot of Master of Waves if you want to give monoblue a little more flexibility and aggressiveness. I haven't been impressed with Kopala though. Feels like that slot could be given to something else.
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I'd like to chime in to dispel a couple of misconceptions here: first is that the Ponza matchup is extremely favorable. I'm currently 13-2 against the deck in leagues, and most of those matches have not been close. If UG loses points against that deck, that's a strike against that particular version, because mono-U stomps it. Secondly, while Weaver is far from a superstar against control decks, I've found it to not be our worst creature against them (that dubious honor belongs to Harbinger, which is why I side them out against both UW and Jeskai). The main reason why it outdoes Harbinger is because is that its effect can still be useful when Vialed in. I've foiled my opponent's plans to blow me out with Snapcaster + removal, a flashed-in Queller, or clock me with Colonnades/Gideons by Vialing in a Weaver and shutting them down. You can keep Weavers in your 75 against control postboard, and they will not embarrass you.
With regards to the version of the deck to play... tensions have definitely been high with regards to what version to run. I still maintain that mono-U is the better deck (and the shift back to it that has been going on and pointed out by IslandsAreBroken validates my point), but UG has definitely been the most successful splash variant we have seen so far. If Rivals gives us some better fixing and maybe another threat, we could definitely have a legitimate variant on our hands. I think that part of the struggles UG has faced beyond the initial hype wave are due to not settling on a solid 75 (which has led to players making some questionable decisions, like cutting Cursecatchers from the deck), and because the effect of worsening your manabase was underestimated.
Stage 1: Kopala seems nice, Merfolk gets nice utility and figths with Kira for slot.
Stage 2: Speaker and Branchwalker are aggressive, let's switch to UG.
Stage 3: Watertrap Weaver looks like a bulk crap, and that wins Pro Tours in Modern (Cloudfin Raptor, Frostburn Weird, Judge's Familiar, Eldrazi Skyspawner, Pestermite; what a fine lineage to be a part of!).
Stage 4: UG dies to Moon, back to U, Weavers will save us, Captain! Let's ditch Master of Waves for that.
Stage 5: Profit! at GP Madrid with 15 Lords and Weavers, mono U version!
This will seem slightly random but hopefully not out of place. When it comes to the Tropical variant, has Noble Hierarch been considered?
I feel that hierarch has proven to be one of the strongest green cards around and could help tropical in the same way it helps out humans, infect, abzan, and more. Ramp wise we could start rejerey chains a turn earlier and fix the mana a bit.
I understand that it's not a merfolk, and that we tend to turn the team sideways more than a single creature, but in theory the effect is warranted. As for space....I'm actually thinking Aether vial. You'd still be able to have a flashy harbinger between 3 lands and hierarch.
When it comes to splashing we should consider doing the most powerful thing...I feel we should at least rule it out as an option, just in case.
Id say that Merfolk doesnt really have enough 3 or 4 drops to make it worthwhile - usually decks that play Hierarch also dont play vial - it was tried from what I know but not that great
R1 Lantern Control: 2-1
Game one he got out the Ensnaring Bridge, and I ended it for the sake of time. Took out 3 harbingers and watertraps for 3 rejections and 3 States. Game 2 was not as fast as I would have liked but bridge never showed and i aggrod. Game three was funny. I just won via turn 2,3,4 having the same play. Summon Master of the Pearl Trident and Swing.
R2. Grixis Shadow: 2-0
Between all of the fetching, shocking and giving me islands to walk on, it was pretty easy, when my turn one plays in both games were Kumena's Speakers. A few things died to removal but I still was able to get in creatures and attack. Watertrap shined here, I was able to tap down huge shadows and delve fish thingy so I can attack safely without worrying about leaving up blockers.
We played casual unboarded games after and he beat me 2-0. When u can't remove those big guys it's a problem
R3. 2-0: 5 color Deaths Shadow. (Is that even a thing?)
I was able to spreading seas and island walk game 1 to victory, but it was a bit grindy, me giving him a.blue source allowed him to play the blue spells that were taking up space in his hand. I took out vials and 2 seas for 3 relics and 3 dispels. This game was very grindy. Got in a few hits but my stuff died to removal. Eventually there ended up being 2 shadows and 2 goyfs on the table. Another matchup where having Watertrap get in work by making sure I didn't get mauled to death. After a small stalemate, I finally drew Lord, I had dispel in my hand in case of removal and I swung with my team of 2 watertraps a Harbinger and a Mutavault and won.
I think I found the right number. 1 Watertrap last week was too little but 3 was just right. It was never dead when I drew it and helped me out more than I thought it would.
100% concur.
I'm not as seasoned as my peers in the 'school', but I feel this division among the fish, and the now in vogue dismissal of tropical fish comes down to a lack of understanding our sideboard selection and play patterns with tropical fish. I can't say which is 'better', nor do I think anyone truly can at this point. There's more to any cut of folk than meets the eye, and consider for a moment how long it took you to become master of the mono-blue wave, months, a year, perhaps longer? Tropical Fish has only truly been an option for a couple of months. Learn the lines, learn the differences in sideboard with a new color, learn the differences in sequencing your land drops, and yes, pay attention to how you tap your mana. I'm not trying to be condescending, but these lines matter, and the context of a specific match up makes a difference. With tropical fish you have more than blue and mutavaults to tap, and it matters.
Cursecatcher is absolutely worth it in the tropical fish deck, at least for me. How many, that's probably up to personal and meta preference, however, I think three to four is the right number. It's great to be able to consistently vial in something on one and utilize the two mana for adept, branchwalker, or counterspell if the match up requires.
If blood moon is a problem, then run swan song. It's a completely relevant sideboard option as a two to three of, along with nature's claim. Maybe one needs to be more selective in your mulligans, in a blood moon match up. Plan ahead at the beginning of the match, ask yourself what happens to this hand if they drop a turn three bloood moon? Will I have enough pressure, will my lands get me there, if I prioritize this fetch, or that fetch will that be enough to mitigate it?
I've had good, yet modest, success with Tropical Fish at my LGS. In my opinion the deck consistently feels faster, and more powerful. Fetches are a must, in my opinion, and make a considerable difference. If you're that scared of bloodmoon, run a forrest in the board or main along with the misty rainforests in the main. I don't think it's a stretch on the deck to run 20 lands.
Just my thoughts, but I get that others might not share my sentiment.
Over in the Elves forum there are no arguments like this between GW or GB. People play what they like and they discuss their card choices for whatever deck they're on. This particular forum has become so toxic from a few users that it's almost depressing to read.
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
*edit* If you want to see what civil discussion of two different decks looks like, check out the elves forum. I keep harping on it, but only because it is what I'm familiar with. From the very beginning I can't recall any argument as toxic as this forum has been over GB vs GW. There was definitely discussion about the strengths and weaknesses of each were, but everyone was supportive of whatever anyone chose to play and talked about the cards that help shore up each versions weaknesses.
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
Sideboard Cards I've found helpful in Tropical Fish:
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
Finally, not sure if the comment was directed towards me or not, but I think I pretty clearly was trying to answer the question that was posed here regarding which list people are favoring and why. And then, when the reddit forum was brought up, I merely argued against the points that I thought were valid or invalid. Saying that people are militant or toxic is what bogs down the forum, imho.
In any case, I'm seeing Nikachu's recent videos with the monoblue list from Rothgar using watertrap weaver, and I kinda like it. It is surprising how such an effect can be so powerful. The only issues that I have with it are the same I have with harbinger: it is bad against control and the effect without vial is a little less appealing. Additionally, the body feels kinda mediocre, being a 2/2 for 3. That said, I can certainly see taking the slot of Master of Waves if you want to give monoblue a little more flexibility and aggressiveness. I haven't been impressed with Kopala though. Feels like that slot could be given to something else.
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With regards to the version of the deck to play... tensions have definitely been high with regards to what version to run. I still maintain that mono-U is the better deck (and the shift back to it that has been going on and pointed out by IslandsAreBroken validates my point), but UG has definitely been the most successful splash variant we have seen so far. If Rivals gives us some better fixing and maybe another threat, we could definitely have a legitimate variant on our hands. I think that part of the struggles UG has faced beyond the initial hype wave are due to not settling on a solid 75 (which has led to players making some questionable decisions, like cutting Cursecatchers from the deck), and because the effect of worsening your manabase was underestimated.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
I think you make good points about the deck but your attitude rubs people the wrong way.
Stage 2: Speaker and Branchwalker are aggressive, let's switch to UG.
Stage 3: Watertrap Weaver looks like a bulk crap, and that wins Pro Tours in Modern (Cloudfin Raptor, Frostburn Weird, Judge's Familiar, Eldrazi Skyspawner, Pestermite; what a fine lineage to be a part of!).
Stage 4: UG dies to Moon, back to U, Weavers will save us, Captain! Let's ditch Master of Waves for that.
Stage 5: Profit! at GP Madrid with 15 Lords and Weavers, mono U version!
Hopefully.
I guess we better tippy toe around you then - so precious
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
Is heroic intervention really worth a sb slot? I get that it’s good vs. a verdict but that’s one matchup that’s already decent
I feel that hierarch has proven to be one of the strongest green cards around and could help tropical in the same way it helps out humans, infect, abzan, and more. Ramp wise we could start rejerey chains a turn earlier and fix the mana a bit.
I understand that it's not a merfolk, and that we tend to turn the team sideways more than a single creature, but in theory the effect is warranted. As for space....I'm actually thinking Aether vial. You'd still be able to have a flashy harbinger between 3 lands and hierarch.
When it comes to splashing we should consider doing the most powerful thing...I feel we should at least rule it out as an option, just in case.
UWx control/midrange
Bant Eldrazi
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
2 Cursecather
4 Merfolk Branchwalker
4 Silvergil Adept
4 Harbinger of the Tides
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
4 Merrow Reejery
3 Watertrap Weaver
4 Spreading Seas
4 Botanical Sanctum
2 Breeding Pool
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Mutavault
4 Island
1 Polluted Delta
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
3 Natural State
3 Dispel
3 Disdainful Stroke
3 Relic of Progenitus
R1 Lantern Control: 2-1
Game one he got out the Ensnaring Bridge, and I ended it for the sake of time. Took out 3 harbingers and watertraps for 3 rejections and 3 States. Game 2 was not as fast as I would have liked but bridge never showed and i aggrod. Game three was funny. I just won via turn 2,3,4 having the same play. Summon Master of the Pearl Trident and Swing.
R2. Grixis Shadow: 2-0
Between all of the fetching, shocking and giving me islands to walk on, it was pretty easy, when my turn one plays in both games were Kumena's Speakers. A few things died to removal but I still was able to get in creatures and attack. Watertrap shined here, I was able to tap down huge shadows and delve fish thingy so I can attack safely without worrying about leaving up blockers.
We played casual unboarded games after and he beat me 2-0. When u can't remove those big guys it's a problem
R3. 2-0: 5 color Deaths Shadow. (Is that even a thing?)
I was able to spreading seas and island walk game 1 to victory, but it was a bit grindy, me giving him a.blue source allowed him to play the blue spells that were taking up space in his hand. I took out vials and 2 seas for 3 relics and 3 dispels. This game was very grindy. Got in a few hits but my stuff died to removal. Eventually there ended up being 2 shadows and 2 goyfs on the table. Another matchup where having Watertrap get in work by making sure I didn't get mauled to death. After a small stalemate, I finally drew Lord, I had dispel in my hand in case of removal and I swung with my team of 2 watertraps a Harbinger and a Mutavault and won.
I think I found the right number. 1 Watertrap last week was too little but 3 was just right. It was never dead when I drew it and helped me out more than I thought it would.