To be honest, Watertrap Weaver may merit some consideration. It's an absolute beating off a Vial on 3, as it takes an attacker out of commission for 2 combat phases (as opposed to 1 for Harbinger). If there's anything that Kopala's taught me over the course of my testing (where it's been excellent), it's that I shouldn't underestimate the power of having a Merfolk body to project pump effects on along with a useful secondary effect. I agree with mtgnorin - it should be considered in ADDITION to Harbinger of the Tides, not instead of it. I might take it out for a spin and see.
I dunno, I just really hate that it cost 3 and he wanting it in the flex spots, where something like Snag/Dismember/Pierce still might work better. It'll be nice to freeze a Titan in Titanshift or a DS, but it doesn't help against Storm and it's awkward against robots if you can't do something at instant speed.
I at least wished it could tap a permanent, cost one less, or maybe have an extra power or toughness.
A lot of people are trying to cut down on Cursecatcher in UG, which I think is VERY wrong when they're not trying to run Spell Pierce in the main to make up for it. I'm talking more of Game 1 when you haven't brought in counterspells yet, and I'm not a fan of worsening the Game 1 win rate against Storm, Jeskai (especially without MoW in UG), and to a lesser extent of Burn/Titanshift.
Dogmatic is definitely how I’d describe Ashiok’s behavior of late. The deck had 2 good weeks - settle down. At this point, it’s difficult to tell whether those results are due to Tropical Fish hype (and whether any breed of Merfolk would have produced equivalent results) or whether it’s providing any sort of competitive advantage.
Going back to Watertrap Weaver... I’d say that the first spot I’d think to test it in is the one usually occupied by Master of Waves. If folks are dissatisfied with the Master’s performance, perhaps lowering the curve a bit and adding more creature disruption can help.
Regarding the data you represent: I don't agree it's conclusive. Yes, blue-green has been performing better than mono-blue recently. However, two weeks is not enough time for a metagame to incorporate and respond to a new build. Weaknesses and counterplay for blue-green will be uncovered, but it will take more time than that. If blue-green continues to show superior results to mono-blue in another four weeks, we will be past the point of argument. Until then, we have an insufficient dataset to justify your your level of certainty.
That is certainly a matter of opinion. Not to mention that 'level of certainty' is a very relative term. I said it before that I believe, based on testing, that U/G is superior. I mentioned the two caveats that come with that (1 - it might be due to the current metagame, and 2- I would still wait for what comes in Rivals).
Regarding everything else: when blue-green first showed up, I was skeptical but not dismissive. Currently, I'm less skeptical, but still not convinced that it is the one, true way. To clarify, this admission of uncertainty and openness to other possibilities is precisely the opposite of dogmatic, so your assertion of hypocrisy falls flat on its face. In contrast, your attitude has expressed precisely that dogma, condescension towards anyone who didn't agree, and seeking some vindication or vengeance against some perceived sleight. I'm honestly not sure why.
No. Your initial post was basically discrediting both kumena's speaker and branchwalker. The only part that expresses some hope for the deck is the last sentence.
Now, the data may eventually bear out that you are correct in this matter. The trend is clearly looking your way (though, as Yogi Berra once said: it's tough to make predictions, especially about the future). However, even a broken clock can be right twice a day. Being right about one thing in a vacuum neither makes you brilliant, nor a prophet, and certainly doesn't justify the rudeness you have born towards basically everyone that disagrees with you (however politely they may do it).
I'm not claiming to be brilliant, nor a prophet, nor anything of the sort. Strawmans are not appreciated. What is this about politely arguing with my position? You know why I bitterly replied to your post? Because you labeled everyone that disagrees with you 'dogmatists', as if we don't have data to support our position. That is not a polite position to start with, my friend. I strongly disagree with this labeling BS, and you should too since it is not at all productive for the conversation you seem to want to have. I also disagree with the 'emotional purists' label by the way, though I do think some people defend monoblue based on a sense of stubbordness (i.e.: you play the deck for a long time, you think that splashes will never be good, you laughed at the face of U/G when it showed up, now that it is putting up better results you will stubbornly refuse to admit that is at least on par with monoblue until overwhelming evidence comes along. Mind you, I'm not saying that is your case).
I'm hoping the thread can return to discussing the merits of different configuration based on facts and theory, with less emotion and condescension in general. It really sucks when discussions about Magic look like domestic politics in the USA.
If there is someone running away from productive arguments is you. In my initial post, that you said that you would ignore, I was arguing against the effectiveness of Cosi's trickster when compared to Kumena's speaker, which was the point you were initially making when comparing the two. I'm also waiting for you to mention which effective white merfolk we're ignoring that we should be looking back at, another point of your argument based on the 'historical approach'.
Finally, not related to this discussion with lord_darkview:
I'm not at all exceited to test watertrap weaver in a monoblue shell. My position is that the card costs one mana too much to be viable in the deck. I still would gladly like to see results from people's testing. The issue here is: harbinger of the tides is already an iffy option for the deck, due to the amount of decks that it is completely dead against. However, it is still a 2/2 for 2. Being a 2/2 for 3 that might be relevant in specific matchups makes me want to not consider the card. I do still think testing is warranted though.
Rothgar13 suggested playing in the place of master of waves. I'm not sure about that. The decks in which watertrap weaver is good against, master is good against too, and he is a much more high impact card. I don't think this trade is a good one, but once again, I'll wait for the testing. I just don't think Ixalan brought any relevant tools for monoblue except for Kopala, a card that is good but has a very narrow purpose. That is all.
Would you like to read Commander stories? Check my latest stories, coming from Lorwyn and Innistrad: Ghoulcaller Gisa and Doran, The Siege Tower! If you like my writing, ask me to write something for your commander as well!
And you may very well be right on that front, to be honest. There’s a reason no one was running to jam Weavers once Ixalan was released. But it might make for an interesting test case as to whether the Master truly is in a worse position than he once was. Think of it as a replacement level card.
Yesterday, I played a match with my Green Devotion deck against someone else playing UG Merfolk. I won game 1 outright, lost game 2, and won game 3 pretty handily. I don't know that mono-U would necessarily have done any better. What I do know is that the card that won the Merfolk player game 2 was Phantasmal Image copying my turn 3 Dragonlord Atarka and clearing my mana production. This is not a statistically significant sample in any respect, but it is an interesting anecdote because (a) I did not expect to see PI in the UG deck and didn't incorporate the possibility into my calculations, and (b) it's good to be reminded of just how good PI can be. It just wins games that couldn't be won any other way.
Modern tournament for the League today, 5 rounds, no top, UG Folk.
Won against ETron (can't remember the last time I was threatened by this deck, almost feels like a bye; Ratchet Bomb is not EE and if I unload Lords before TNSs come out, then only All is Dust is possible problem, and then Rejections come from the board), Harbingers stopped his Smashers and won on tempo because TNS could not attack vs 4/3 Branchwalker.
Won against RG Beats, low powered deck, Harbingers did some work.
Won against Affinity, had her dead game 1 but she topdecked Galvanic with me on 4. Then all the hate came in (3 Rejections, 2 Natural State, 3 Gut Shot). Just destroyed every relevant threat she had.
Lost 1:2 against Ad Naus. I picked the line that loses to Pact, Ape, Naus hand with him at three cards. Had them, obv.
Lost 1:2 against Junk. 2 mulls to 5 were too much. Still had him at 3 life with Confidant out, but he survived.
I lead the overall standings with only 4 points ahead of second and third place, after 9 out of 10 tournaments.
I need those two to not 5:0 the last one if I stumble with 3:2 again. With 4:1 I have my destiny in my hands.
Tenth is in December and then Masters in January.
Hopefully, UG has my back.
If Merfolk is going to go two colours why not go to three? UG is already weak to blood moon etc now - so I don't see how going to a 3rd colour makes any substantially negative difference to the manabase - anyway this is what im going to sleeve up tomorrow.
I present TEMUR merfolk! Want removal but you massacred your manabase to fit in green? Who needs dismember when you have LIGHTNING BOLT! Sure it won't kill Tasigur, TKS etc - but you can also go to the dome and close out that game with your opponent on three life.
Got the sh*t's losing to f'ing Affinity for the millionth time - say hello to ANCIENT GRUDGE. Lantern schmucks milling your Recall, Natural State into the bin - Ancient Grudge says f*ck you ensnaring bridge!
//Mana
2 Island
3 Botanical Sanctum
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Breeding Pool
2 Steam Vents
4 Mutavault
//Creatures
2 Cursecatcher
3 Harbinger of the Tides
4 Kumena's Speaker
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Merfolk Branchwalker
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
4 Merrow Reejerey
Non-joke: I've been toying with a UR splash. This is a splash that can RUN Blood Moon out of the SB, instead of fearing it. The question is if it's worth the loss of Mutavault. Sulfur Falls could be substituted for Spirebluff Canal, if that's more to your liking.
If you want to go Temur then add atleast some Blood Moon effects. Rugfolk V2.4
The problem is that this loses to BGx.
I would say it loses to a lot more then just BGx - I mean you do know that blood moon absolutely hoses the new merfolk builds - not sure why you would want to hose yourself..
It's funny, I was just thinking of putting a single Clique in the maindeck, and there it is. Anyone else tried Clique lately? Not the biggest fan of Crudele's list otherwise, but it's clear that Harbinger is a must-have right now.
I posted a list very similar to Gioele Crudele list, but I'm running 2 MoW instead of 2 Copters, and echoing truth instead of vapor snag. I love Clique on the main, the very least it gives us a shot on game one against combo decks. Gives information, flies and on last resource it can be a draw for you if you have a card you don't want in your hand. Bad thing is that if you're trusting on Kopala tax to protect clique, it's out of there. Pros is that when that happens, clique has done the job.
Speaking of MoW, how the meta moved away from Lightning Bolt to Fatal Push kinda doomed him a little, we've discussed this before here. Lately he only comes down to die to push or dismember, and I've played games I'm not that excited to see it on my opening hand. The problem is that I don't see a better replacement so far. I don't like to run more than 2 non-merfolk creatures in the main, and I consider Copter one of those lol. MoW was such a game changer before, but I think he's starting to be a meta call. Any sugestions for testing?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Mostly Modern Player RBridgevineB RGR/G EldraziX UBlue MoonR UU/W TronW
MoW was such a game changer before, but I think he's starting to be a meta call. Any sugestions for testing?
Yeah, I think MoW is just flat-out bad right now. Not to be too obvious, but Phantasmal Image? Maybe with 2x Kopala, since Kopala actually offers some protection for Image, whereas Kira doesn't?
Also, anyone have any thoughts on the Gifts Storm matchup? Clique and GY hate seem really strong against it, and obviously countering Gifts whenever possible.
To be honest, if I ever move away from maindeck Masters, I'm increasingly thinking I want mainboard counterspells again. Being cold to all sorts of random stuff because I'm basically just a creature deck is getting a bit tiresome. It feels like I would breeze through so many Game 1s if I just had some maindeck Negates or Unified Wills. I may try that, actually.
That might actually work out. I like counter on the main but atm I don't find room for them. Going below 28 creatures could be dangerous but it could fix some first games. If you try it, let us know how it goes.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Mostly Modern Player RBridgevineB RGR/G EldraziX UBlue MoonR UU/W TronW
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I dunno, I just really hate that it cost 3 and he wanting it in the flex spots, where something like Snag/Dismember/Pierce still might work better. It'll be nice to freeze a Titan in Titanshift or a DS, but it doesn't help against Storm and it's awkward against robots if you can't do something at instant speed.
I at least wished it could tap a permanent, cost one less, or maybe have an extra power or toughness.
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
Going back to Watertrap Weaver... I’d say that the first spot I’d think to test it in is the one usually occupied by Master of Waves. If folks are dissatisfied with the Master’s performance, perhaps lowering the curve a bit and adding more creature disruption can help.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
No. Your initial post was basically discrediting both kumena's speaker and branchwalker. The only part that expresses some hope for the deck is the last sentence.
I'm not claiming to be brilliant, nor a prophet, nor anything of the sort. Strawmans are not appreciated. What is this about politely arguing with my position? You know why I bitterly replied to your post? Because you labeled everyone that disagrees with you 'dogmatists', as if we don't have data to support our position. That is not a polite position to start with, my friend. I strongly disagree with this labeling BS, and you should too since it is not at all productive for the conversation you seem to want to have. I also disagree with the 'emotional purists' label by the way, though I do think some people defend monoblue based on a sense of stubbordness (i.e.: you play the deck for a long time, you think that splashes will never be good, you laughed at the face of U/G when it showed up, now that it is putting up better results you will stubbornly refuse to admit that is at least on par with monoblue until overwhelming evidence comes along. Mind you, I'm not saying that is your case).
If there is someone running away from productive arguments is you. In my initial post, that you said that you would ignore, I was arguing against the effectiveness of Cosi's trickster when compared to Kumena's speaker, which was the point you were initially making when comparing the two. I'm also waiting for you to mention which effective white merfolk we're ignoring that we should be looking back at, another point of your argument based on the 'historical approach'.
_______________________________________________________________________________________________
Finally, not related to this discussion with lord_darkview:
I'm not at all exceited to test watertrap weaver in a monoblue shell. My position is that the card costs one mana too much to be viable in the deck. I still would gladly like to see results from people's testing. The issue here is: harbinger of the tides is already an iffy option for the deck, due to the amount of decks that it is completely dead against. However, it is still a 2/2 for 2. Being a 2/2 for 3 that might be relevant in specific matchups makes me want to not consider the card. I do still think testing is warranted though.
Rothgar13 suggested playing in the place of master of waves. I'm not sure about that. The decks in which watertrap weaver is good against, master is good against too, and he is a much more high impact card. I don't think this trade is a good one, but once again, I'll wait for the testing. I just don't think Ixalan brought any relevant tools for monoblue except for Kopala, a card that is good but has a very narrow purpose. That is all.
Read my other stories as well (some ongoing):
Reaper King (a horror story), Kaalia of the Vast (an origin story), Sequels for Innistrad (Alternative sequels for Inn), Grey Areas (Odric's fanfic), Royal Succession (goblins),The Tracker's Message (eldrazi on Innistrad) and Ugin and his Eye (the end of OGW).
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
Death & Taxes
Fish
Teysa, Orzhov Scion
Roon of the Hidden Realm
Xenagos, God of Revels
Won against ETron (can't remember the last time I was threatened by this deck, almost feels like a bye; Ratchet Bomb is not EE and if I unload Lords before TNSs come out, then only All is Dust is possible problem, and then Rejections come from the board), Harbingers stopped his Smashers and won on tempo because TNS could not attack vs 4/3 Branchwalker.
Won against RG Beats, low powered deck, Harbingers did some work.
Won against Affinity, had her dead game 1 but she topdecked Galvanic with me on 4. Then all the hate came in (3 Rejections, 2 Natural State, 3 Gut Shot). Just destroyed every relevant threat she had.
Lost 1:2 against Ad Naus. I picked the line that loses to Pact, Ape, Naus hand with him at three cards. Had them, obv.
Lost 1:2 against Junk. 2 mulls to 5 were too much. Still had him at 3 life with Confidant out, but he survived.
I lead the overall standings with only 4 points ahead of second and third place, after 9 out of 10 tournaments.
I need those two to not 5:0 the last one if I stumble with 3:2 again. With 4:1 I have my destiny in my hands.
Tenth is in December and then Masters in January.
Hopefully, UG has my back.
I present TEMUR merfolk! Want removal but you massacred your manabase to fit in green? Who needs dismember when you have LIGHTNING BOLT! Sure it won't kill Tasigur, TKS etc - but you can also go to the dome and close out that game with your opponent on three life.
Got the sh*t's losing to f'ing Affinity for the millionth time - say hello to ANCIENT GRUDGE. Lantern schmucks milling your Recall, Natural State into the bin - Ancient Grudge says f*ck you ensnaring bridge!
//Mana
2 Island
3 Botanical Sanctum
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Breeding Pool
2 Steam Vents
4 Mutavault
//Creatures
2 Cursecatcher
3 Harbinger of the Tides
4 Kumena's Speaker
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Merfolk Branchwalker
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
4 Merrow Reejerey
//Non-creature spells
4 Æther Vial
4 Spreading Seas
4 Lightning Bolt
//Sideboard
SB: 3 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 Dispel
SB: 3 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Ceremonious Rejection
SB: 2 Unified Will
SB: 2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
1 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Steam Vents
4 Spirebluff Canal
A tri-color mana-base is tougher, and probably also has trouble fitting Mutavault, but maybe if we accept the loss to Moon:
2 Breeding Pool
4 City of Brass
4 Flooded Strand
2 Mutavault
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
Modern: Merfolk UU // Green Devotion GG // SkRed Red RR
Legacy: Death & Taxes WW // Burn RR // Death's Shadow Delver UB
Commander: Brago UW // Karlov WB
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=117146
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=117193
Both UG, the main differences are in the mana base.
Standard: BG Golgari Midrange
Modern: U Merfolk GWUBR 5 Color Humans UBW Esper Gifts GW Bogles
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=117094
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=117102
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
I would say it loses to a lot more then just BGx - I mean you do know that blood moon absolutely hoses the new merfolk builds - not sure why you would want to hose yourself..
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
It's funny, I was just thinking of putting a single Clique in the maindeck, and there it is. Anyone else tried Clique lately? Not the biggest fan of Crudele's list otherwise, but it's clear that Harbinger is a must-have right now.
Speaking of MoW, how the meta moved away from Lightning Bolt to Fatal Push kinda doomed him a little, we've discussed this before here. Lately he only comes down to die to push or dismember, and I've played games I'm not that excited to see it on my opening hand. The problem is that I don't see a better replacement so far. I don't like to run more than 2 non-merfolk creatures in the main, and I consider Copter one of those lol. MoW was such a game changer before, but I think he's starting to be a meta call. Any sugestions for testing?
RBridgevineB
RGR/G EldraziX
UBlue MoonR
UU/W TronW
Yeah, I think MoW is just flat-out bad right now. Not to be too obvious, but Phantasmal Image? Maybe with 2x Kopala, since Kopala actually offers some protection for Image, whereas Kira doesn't?
Also, anyone have any thoughts on the Gifts Storm matchup? Clique and GY hate seem really strong against it, and obviously countering Gifts whenever possible.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
RBridgevineB
RGR/G EldraziX
UBlue MoonR
UU/W TronW