rothgar, how do you play the matchup? How does he think to play the matchup?
My opponent employs a two-pronged strategy - he first tries to go for broke on the combo (since our interaction against it is somewhat limited); if I thwart him on that front or he doesn't have a good combo hand, he tries to drag me into the late game using Eternal Witness value chains for cards like Chord of Calling and Collected Company, as well as Abrupt Decay and Path to Exile postboard. He'll also try to disrupt my board state a bit with either Orzhov Pontiff (if I have a bunch of Master of Waves tokens) or Fiend Hunter (if I have a bunch of Lords). I consider the former strategy the more threatening one, since we have no answer to infinite life if it comes together. However, I've found that the deck is pretty vulnerable to an aggro bumrush overall, especially if you have Spreading Seas to dodge the likes of Kitchen Finks and Wall of Roots (you can attack into the rest of his forces all day long).
In Game 1, I'm hoping for Æther Vial, Lords, and Spreading Seas. Cursecatcher, Master of Waves, and Silvergill Adept are soft to Orzhov Pontiff on their own, so I tend to want Lords with them (and I'm not above shipping away a hand without them). Postboard, I'm bringing in Dispel if I have it (Negate otherwise), Relic of Progenitus, and Tidebinder Mage, while taking out Master of Waves (which is too slow) and Harbinger of the Tides. The reason I take out Harbinger over something like Vapor Snag is that I'm not particularly worried about Abzan Company attacking me - I want my bounce spell to clear blockers and interrupt attempts to combo off, and Harbinger can only reliably do that with a Merrow Reejerey present. Tidebinder is particularly potent here - tapping down a Kitchen Finks is even better than killing it (since he doesn't get persist), and it makes for a great tempo play when my opponent's just trying to weather my rush until he can cast a CoCo or a Chord.
rothgar, how do you play the matchup? How does he think to play the matchup?
My opponent employs a two-pronged strategy - he first tries to go for broke on the combo (since our interaction against it is somewhat limited); if I thwart him on that front or he doesn't have a good combo hand, he tries to drag me into the late game using Eternal Witness value chains for cards like Chord of Calling and Collected Company, as well as Abrupt Decay and Path to Exile postboard. He'll also try to disrupt my board state a bit with either Orzhov Pontiff (if I have a bunch of Master of Waves tokens) or Fiend Hunter (if I have a bunch of Lords). I consider the former strategy the more threatening one, since we have no answer to infinite life if it comes together. However, I've found that the deck is pretty vulnerable to an aggro bumrush overall, especially if you have Spreading Seas to dodge the likes of Kitchen Finks and Wall of Roots (you can attack into the rest of his forces all day long).
In Game 1, I'm hoping for Æther Vial, Lords, and Spreading Seas. Cursecatcher, Master of Waves, and Silvergill Adept are soft to Orzhov Pontiff on their own, so I tend to want Lords with them (and I'm not above shipping away a hand without them). Postboard, I'm bringing in Dispel if I have it (Negate otherwise), Relic of Progenitus, and Tidebinder Mage, while taking out Master of Waves (which is too slow) and Harbinger of the Tides. The reason I take out Harbinger over something like Vapor Snag is that I'm not particularly worried about Abzan Company attacking me - I want my bounce spell to clear blockers and interrupt attempts to combo off, and Harbinger can only reliably do that with a Merrow Reejerey present. Tidebinder is particularly potent here - tapping down a Kitchen Finks is even better than killing it (since he doesn't get persist), and it makes for a great tempo play when my opponent's just trying to weather my rush until he can cast a CoCo or a Chord.
I also have this deck in my playgroup as I have mentioned before, and I agree with just about everything you've said, Rothgar13. A couple things also of note are things like using Spreading Seas to shut off Gavony Township to diminish their value-beatdown plan of swinging with birds and resetting Finks every turn, and using removal on Viscera Seer because most lists only run three copies of him. Also, everyone should keep in mind they can use both Pontiff and his Haunt in one turn, to give your field -2/-2, so even if you have a Lord you need to be conscious of that. I like Echoing Truth, Tidebinder, and Relic in this matchup. I don't usually bring in Negate/counters because I want to focus on disruption of the creatures actually on board, but I can see bringing those in. Cursecatcher is a huge threat to them, playing him early gives me a way better shot at winning the game because they have to play Chord/Company a turn later.
When both players are well experienced with their lists and the matchup, I find that we are just about 50/50. You absolutely have to be the aggressor and disrupt them, but we have more than enough tools for that.
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"It's not a matter of deserving. It's a matter of strength. The power to hold versus the power to take."
-Sygg, River Cutthroat
Not necessarily. Seas is fantastic here, obviously, but you can win without it. Beyond using Seas, early Cursecatchers and combo interruption (Dismember, Snag, sometimes a counter like Spell Pierce) are how we beat them. It is not a terribly complicated matchup once you understand how they win.. Pressure them, and use whatever resources you can to interrupt/prevent the combo from happening. If they are on the value plan B, watch out for dying to bolster/township-buffed birds & Finks. You can race a bad zoo deck, which is what they generally end up becoming if the combo plan fails.
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"It's not a matter of deserving. It's a matter of strength. The power to hold versus the power to take."
-Sygg, River Cutthroat
You don't need Seas, though it obviously helps. You need pressure. I've won games against them by going T1 Vial, T2 Lord, T3 2x Lord, and just swinging away with disruption backup until my opponent drops.
Lords and Snag, usually. You only stall and wait for Seas when you can't get damage through profitably, which is rare given that the beefiest thing they've got is a 3/2, and that Vapor Snag gets anything out of your way. This gets even easier postboard, as Tidebinder Mage is the bane of Kitchen Finks.
How does TB mage help really? Sure you slow down there beatdown plan but we rarely lose to that - we lose to the combo. Sure if you draw seas and enough Lords you'll get there but often we are not fast enough and they combo us out. You say we dont need seas to win - they gum up the ground incredibly well?! But hey you state you are winning - so good luck to you..
Clear case of hyperbole? - i'd say your analysis is a clear case of overstating the capability of Merfolk in this matchup - I guess we agree to disagree..
Coco/Chord/whatever toolbox is a three or four color deck that plays 15 lands which deals dmg to them. They also play brown mana like Ghost Quarter/Township.
They can die quickly if we Dismember/Gut Shot/Tidebinder their mana dork, followed by Seas on sensitive mana.
Tidebinder can also lock up Finks/Voice so our attack is free, their other creatures are utility with bad p/t ratio.
We saw few reports where Gut Shot and Tidebinder combo gave us some wins against Elves. This is the same only they are much slower.
I can see how we struggle if our sideboard is not constructed optimally.
Idk, the coco match is fine. Sometimes your opponent just has the "oops I win" button with the combo. We typically have enough interaction with removal and gy hate to punch through.
I had a guy go t1 seer, t2 anafenza, t3 finks (I had relic), t4 redcap; lol all you can do is shrug.
How does TB mage help really? Sure you slow down there beatdown plan but we rarely lose to that - we lose to the combo. Sure if you draw seas and enough Lords you'll get there but often we are not fast enough and they combo us out. You say we dont need seas to win - they gum up the ground incredibly well?! But hey you state you are winning - so good luck to you..
Clear case of hyperbole? - i'd say your analysis is a clear case of overstating the capability of Merfolk in this matchup - I guess we agree to disagree..
Turn 1: island, vial, go
Fetch, shock, birds of paradise go
Turn 2: island, tidebinder...
A very strong start I've used against this deck many times
I think the community has responded to this pretty comprehensively (thanks, everyone! ). Tidebinder Mage can either kill a ramp start by grabbing a dork (or you can leave that to Dismember/Gut Shot/Vapor Snag), or grab a Voice of Resurgence/Kitchen Finks to pave the way for your attackers when you don't have Spreading Seas to see you through, all while giving you a body to project pump effects. It's a tempo beating, and that's exactly what we want in this matchup.
If you are really worried about CoCo just play Grafdigger's Cage, sure they have abrupt decay but it can hold them off enough turns for you to win while they spend all their resources trying to get that. If you bring in relic too then you are basically fine.
Just wanted to say that the Modern metagame analysis is up (link here), and I'll be updating the Matchups and Sideboarding section accordingly. Major changes of note are a newcomer to the Tier 3 scene in Taking Turns, as well as that Dredgevine deck we were talking about.
Taking turns has always been around (more popular in local fmns than major tourneys though) and I don't think it needs a whole lot of thought.
Otherwise, thanks for the link.
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My opponent employs a two-pronged strategy - he first tries to go for broke on the combo (since our interaction against it is somewhat limited); if I thwart him on that front or he doesn't have a good combo hand, he tries to drag me into the late game using Eternal Witness value chains for cards like Chord of Calling and Collected Company, as well as Abrupt Decay and Path to Exile postboard. He'll also try to disrupt my board state a bit with either Orzhov Pontiff (if I have a bunch of Master of Waves tokens) or Fiend Hunter (if I have a bunch of Lords). I consider the former strategy the more threatening one, since we have no answer to infinite life if it comes together. However, I've found that the deck is pretty vulnerable to an aggro bumrush overall, especially if you have Spreading Seas to dodge the likes of Kitchen Finks and Wall of Roots (you can attack into the rest of his forces all day long).
In Game 1, I'm hoping for Æther Vial, Lords, and Spreading Seas. Cursecatcher, Master of Waves, and Silvergill Adept are soft to Orzhov Pontiff on their own, so I tend to want Lords with them (and I'm not above shipping away a hand without them). Postboard, I'm bringing in Dispel if I have it (Negate otherwise), Relic of Progenitus, and Tidebinder Mage, while taking out Master of Waves (which is too slow) and Harbinger of the Tides. The reason I take out Harbinger over something like Vapor Snag is that I'm not particularly worried about Abzan Company attacking me - I want my bounce spell to clear blockers and interrupt attempts to combo off, and Harbinger can only reliably do that with a Merrow Reejerey present. Tidebinder is particularly potent here - tapping down a Kitchen Finks is even better than killing it (since he doesn't get persist), and it makes for a great tempo play when my opponent's just trying to weather my rush until he can cast a CoCo or a Chord.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
I also have this deck in my playgroup as I have mentioned before, and I agree with just about everything you've said, Rothgar13. A couple things also of note are things like using Spreading Seas to shut off Gavony Township to diminish their value-beatdown plan of swinging with birds and resetting Finks every turn, and using removal on Viscera Seer because most lists only run three copies of him. Also, everyone should keep in mind they can use both Pontiff and his Haunt in one turn, to give your field -2/-2, so even if you have a Lord you need to be conscious of that. I like Echoing Truth, Tidebinder, and Relic in this matchup. I don't usually bring in Negate/counters because I want to focus on disruption of the creatures actually on board, but I can see bringing those in. Cursecatcher is a huge threat to them, playing him early gives me a way better shot at winning the game because they have to play Chord/Company a turn later.
When both players are well experienced with their lists and the matchup, I find that we are just about 50/50. You absolutely have to be the aggressor and disrupt them, but we have more than enough tools for that.
-Sygg, River Cutthroat
I play all Cavern of Souls decks
Not necessarily. Seas is fantastic here, obviously, but you can win without it. Beyond using Seas, early Cursecatchers and combo interruption (Dismember, Snag, sometimes a counter like Spell Pierce) are how we beat them. It is not a terribly complicated matchup once you understand how they win.. Pressure them, and use whatever resources you can to interrupt/prevent the combo from happening. If they are on the value plan B, watch out for dying to bolster/township-buffed birds & Finks. You can race a bad zoo deck, which is what they generally end up becoming if the combo plan fails.
-Sygg, River Cutthroat
I play all Cavern of Souls decks
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
Clear case of hyperbole? - i'd say your analysis is a clear case of overstating the capability of Merfolk in this matchup - I guess we agree to disagree..
Bant Eldrazi
UW Control
U Merfolk
Legacy
Merfolk
UR Delver
They can die quickly if we Dismember/Gut Shot/Tidebinder their mana dork, followed by Seas on sensitive mana.
Tidebinder can also lock up Finks/Voice so our attack is free, their other creatures are utility with bad p/t ratio.
We saw few reports where Gut Shot and Tidebinder combo gave us some wins against Elves. This is the same only they are much slower.
I can see how we struggle if our sideboard is not constructed optimally.
I had a guy go t1 seer, t2 anafenza, t3 finks (I had relic), t4 redcap; lol all you can do is shrug.
Turn 1: island, vial, go
Fetch, shock, birds of paradise go
Turn 2: island, tidebinder...
A very strong start I've used against this deck many times
U
WUBRGPeopleGRBUW
U Turbo Turns U
UB Fae BU
WBG Aristocrats GBW
We have the tools, luck is not the critical part.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
I'm kind of tempted to do it. I run 3 without any blue mana issues. Mostly I just want to take care of the ugly "3x Cavern, 11x Island" odd numbers.
UMerfolkU
Legacy
UMerfolkU
Commander
RWBAlesha, Who Smiles At DeathRWB
Just wanted to say that the Modern metagame analysis is up (link here), and I'll be updating the Matchups and Sideboarding section accordingly. Major changes of note are a newcomer to the Tier 3 scene in Taking Turns, as well as that Dredgevine deck we were talking about.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
Otherwise, thanks for the link.