I don't entirely agree - bouncing the likes of Stirring Wildwood, Tarmogoyf, and Scavenging Ooze (or even a Dark Confidant) has served me well on more than one occasion. There are scenarios against BGX where you might find yourself in a race, and there tempo plays that put boots on the ground like Harbinger of the Tides does are pretty darn super (especially when they're low on life from your early pressure). Furthermore, you want all of the bodies you can get against BGX, so even if it comes down as a Bear, it's nothing to scoff at (especially if you can get some Lords to stick or it can fuel a Master of Waves with its devotion).
This is the list I think I'm starting with heading into testing for SCG Regionals. The number of Warping Wails may be a bit ambitious. My meta is mostly linear strategies and very few BG/x, so I am expecting it to be pretty potent. Master of Waves in the side feels weird. I'm considering replacing it with a Spellskite or a third Tectonic Edge or Ghost Quarter. Spatial Contortion also feels like another card worth considering based off my current manabase. Potentially over Dismember or some sort of split?
This just came to me, but back when abzan spiked in popularity, I tried out running skaab ruinator. Thoughts on revisiting it now?
With vial, even on an empty board you can untap with a lot of power, it can be recurred from the yard if killed, and it blocks well vs most aggro decks. Back when I did play it, I can't count the number of times I'd kill inkmoth nexus, slippery bogles, siege rhinos, etc, with it. It also blocks a good number of the new eldrazi pretty well.
Right now, certainly. The new eldrazi, and a good deal of the aggro decks all have a fairly difficult time dealing with him, and I wouldn't consider relic good against any of those decks.
I got absolutely wrecked today on MODO against mono red goblins, I played the same guy 3 matches in a row and went 0-6 in games. I only had one game where I stabilized when he had a slow hand and still lost. It really feels like this deck is a full turn ahead of us out the gates and it has faster acceleration, easily going way wide by turn 4.
I brought in chalice but never saw it, and its hard to justify keeping up mana for counters because 80% of their threats are creatures... Also goblin grenade is a sorcery, so dispel doesn't help there.
Any suggestions? I'm afraid we don't have many answers for this archetype.
I lost against Burn 9 months ago. Combination of 4 Harbinger + 4 Tidebinder + 4 Master of Waves + 3 Snag rendered their creatures useless. The rest of the deck had to fight against burn to the face.
Goblins is "just" creatures. It might not be a walk in the park but it is not 0-6 matchup in general. We have Mutavaults for Piledrivers and Waves for their wide attack.
Do you have 4 Tidebinders in 75?
Chalice might not be relevant because they can have Vial and Cavern and their curve can be all over the place.
Based on this article: "Frank Analysis – How Many Colored Mana Sources Do You Need to Consistently Cast Your Spells?" I would assume that we need 20 coloured sources to reliably have 2 coloured mana and cast lords as well as Harbinger/Tidebinder on turn 2.
The 8 fairly cheap cantrips in the main deck (Adept/Spreading Seas) means we have approximately 2 more mana sources (each cantrip = 0.25 mana). We therefore want to have another 18 mana from our lands. If aether vial could be counted as 2 coloured sources, this means we can run 4 mutavault and 16 lands (Islands or equivalent) in the main, which matches most successful Merfolk deck out there.
This means that if we side out aether vial or aether vial is, in fact, not equal to 2 coloured mana sources, we would need to have 2 additional lands in the deck for the sake of consistency.
Agreed. There is a reason why every successful Merfolk deck plays Vial and why there won't be one without it.
Mutavault and Spreading Seas also has to be 4-of (before adding a single Claim).
Aether vial might be what you're missing.
That being said, the current processor builds might not have enough fodder to choose to return non-skaab cards back to our graveyard, and might enable him anyways.
On top of that, with OGW adding a bunch of new eldrazi, many of the newer lists are much less processor focused and rely more on just general good eldrazi cards, which skaab is powerful against.
This just came to me, but back when abzan spiked in popularity, I tried out running skaab ruinator. Thoughts on revisiting it now?
With vial, even on an empty board you can untap with a lot of power, it can be recurred from the yard if killed, and it blocks well vs most aggro decks. Back when I did play it, I can't count the number of times I'd kill inkmoth nexus, slippery bogles, siege rhinos, etc, with it. It also blocks a good number of the new eldrazi pretty well.
Wait... what makes you think you can cast Skaab Ruinator when decks with maindeck Relic of Progenitus (Eldrazi and Tron) just got an unfavorable matchup banned? I'd say we can kiss any graveyard-based tricks goodbye for a while. Furthermore, we already match up favorably with both of those decks, especially now that we're all talking about packing more land hate. Relying on a Vial on 3 counters to get him onto the battlefield (because you have no graveyard to exile) is a bit of a tough ask.
Eldrazi??O_o
They are playing 4 Relics themselves, there is no way you will ever cast him out of your graveyard. At the same time they play black and white removal and can deal with him directly.
On top of that it gets hit by IoK too if they actually can't handle him.
What am i missing?
Nothing that I can see. I'm in complete agreement.
I got absolutely wrecked today on MODO against mono red goblins, I played the same guy 3 matches in a row and went 0-6 in games. I only had one game where I stabilized when he had a slow hand and still lost. It really feels like this deck is a full turn ahead of us out the gates and it has faster acceleration, easily going way wide by turn 4.
I brought in chalice but never saw it, and its hard to justify keeping up mana for counters because 80% of their threats are creatures... Also goblin grenade is a sorcery, so dispel doesn't help there.
Any suggestions? I'm afraid we don't have many answers for this archetype.
I lost against Burn 9 months ago. Combination of 4 Harbinger + 4 Tidebinder + 4 Master of Waves + 3 Snag rendered their creatures useless. The rest of the deck had to fight against burn to the face.
Goblins is "just" creatures. It might not be a walk in the park but it is not 0-6 matchup in general. We have Mutavaults for Piledrivers and Waves for their wide attack.
Do you have 4 Tidebinders in 75?
Chalice might not be relevant because they can have Vial and Cavern and their curve can be all over the place.
Based on this article: "Frank Analysis – How Many Colored Mana Sources Do You Need to Consistently Cast Your Spells?" I would assume that we need 20 coloured sources to reliably have 2 coloured mana and cast lords as well as Harbinger/Tidebinder on turn 2.
The 8 fairly cheap cantrips in the main deck (Adept/Spreading Seas) means we have approximately 2 more mana sources (each cantrip = 0.25 mana). We therefore want to have another 18 mana from our lands. If aether vial could be counted as 2 coloured sources, this means we can run 4 mutavault and 16 lands (Islands or equivalent) in the main, which matches most successful Merfolk deck out there.
This means that if we side out aether vial or aether vial is, in fact, not equal to 2 coloured mana sources, we would need to have 2 additional lands in the deck for the sake of consistency.
Agreed. There is a reason why every successful Merfolk deck plays Vial and why there won't be one without it.
Mutavault and Spreading Seas also has to be 4-of (before adding a single Claim).
Pretty much what FANAttIC said - the likes of Harbinger of the Tides, Master of Waves, and Tidebinder Mage shut R-based creature decks down hard, and Æther Vial is a critical part of competitive Merfolk in both Modern and Legacy (as described ad nauseam by the primer fron page), and shouldn't be considered as a cut unless the meta literally is 30+% BGX (and given that Tron and Affinity are looking nice, we need all the tempo boosts we can get).
This is my first stab at a post-bannings list. I would like some advice/criticism on the changes. Essentially I am going lighter on Dismember and adding 2 Vapor Snag to the main (with a 1/1 split of Dismember MB/SB). Upping the Merror Reejerey count to the full 4 and going 2/2 with Harbinger of the Tides and Phantasmal Image.
In the side, I'm going to 3 Hurkyl's Recall. Leaving the 5 counter spells alone and going down to 2 Tidebinder Mage.
The only thing I'm unsure about are the 2 Spellskite in the SB. They were mainly for Twin, but do have application against decks like Infect, Bogles, or other decks that try to remove creatures. I'm thinking maybe they need to be Chalice of the Void instead.
I maintain that trimming Harbinger of the Tides is premature. That said, everything looks normal, though I don't know if Spellskite is all that well positioned anymore. It's mostly outperformed by Chalice of the Void nowadays if you ask me.
Here are some minor tweaks I made based off Nikachu's build following the ban. Nothing too revolutionary, but I think tidebinder mage is positioned for a comeback. Let me know what you guys think.
I've actually moved on it some months ago, and I haven't missed it. I suspect I'll miss it even less with one of the big reasons to run lots of spot removal (Twin) gone, since I expect more sweepers out of BGX.
Something I think will get better if Kiki-Chord becomes more prevelent is something I like, Grafdigger's Cage and Pithing Needle sideboard. Grafdigger's Cage shuts off the combo, and is decent for snapcaster decks, Elves, and CoCo decks. Pithing Needle shuts off Qasali Pridemage and is plenty effective against Tron and other decks.
Affinity aside, I feel like infect, burn, different forms of zoo, kiki chord and bgx decks are going to spike. I like tidebinder in all of these. Also, I only cut one harbinger. I still think the card is great, but tidebinder could be more of a role player going forward.
Tidebinder Mage's relative status will go up if we get more linear decks like everyone expects, so 3-4 of them in the board will probably be an integral part of our decks going forward. I don't think it's maindeckable (given that Affinity, Tron, and others blank it), but it's probably going to be the first card off the bench.
My problem with Chalice of the Void right now is that if I move from Dismember to Vapor Snag, which I think is a very possible shift in the current meta, I do not want my removal conflicting with my Chalice (Chalice is also a nonbo with Dispel.) I also enjoy using Snag + Vial for a variety of tricks to avoid removal without losing board position.
I'm tending towards this for the moment to test with:
It is quite possible that 3 Chalice of the Void are better than 2 Dispel and 3 Hurkyl's Recall, but then the two sideboard Snag become Dismember, and that allows me to add two more cards to play with for other matches.
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Standard
Tempo Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
Following my previous post about whether 4 aether vials could be counted as 2 colored mana sources, I would like to know whether the following mana base configuration is acceptable by everyone or there are rooms to wiggle about.
Obviously Minamo and Oboro could replace Island to make the deck more resilent to Choke and Boil. The number of Seachrome Coast depends on whether Master of Waves remain popular in the new meta.
I ask this question because I have just seen an article on ModernNexus featuring a UW Merfolk list and found it intriguing because the author's land configuration is as follow:
Is it possible to still stay mono blue? I cant afford the UW nonbasics due to being unemployed and I cant afford to change my list per say so I might have to sell if we have to become UW to adapt.
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Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
2 Harbinger of the Tides
2 Phantasmal Image
3 Merrow Reejerey
3 Master of Waves
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Spreading Seas
3 Dismember
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Mutavault
8 Island
3 Tidebinder Mage
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tectonic Edge
2 Negate
1 Master of Waves
1 Chalice of the Void
This is the list I think I'm starting with heading into testing for SCG Regionals. The number of Warping Wails may be a bit ambitious. My meta is mostly linear strategies and very few BG/x, so I am expecting it to be pretty potent. Master of Waves in the side feels weird. I'm considering replacing it with a Spellskite or a third Tectonic Edge or Ghost Quarter. Spatial Contortion also feels like another card worth considering based off my current manabase. Potentially over Dismember or some sort of split?
With vial, even on an empty board you can untap with a lot of power, it can be recurred from the yard if killed, and it blocks well vs most aggro decks. Back when I did play it, I can't count the number of times I'd kill inkmoth nexus, slippery bogles, siege rhinos, etc, with it. It also blocks a good number of the new eldrazi pretty well.
I lost against Burn 9 months ago. Combination of 4 Harbinger + 4 Tidebinder + 4 Master of Waves + 3 Snag rendered their creatures useless. The rest of the deck had to fight against burn to the face.
Goblins is "just" creatures. It might not be a walk in the park but it is not 0-6 matchup in general. We have Mutavaults for Piledrivers and Waves for their wide attack.
Do you have 4 Tidebinders in 75?
Chalice might not be relevant because they can have Vial and Cavern and their curve can be all over the place.
Agreed. There is a reason why every successful Merfolk deck plays Vial and why there won't be one without it.
Mutavault and Spreading Seas also has to be 4-of (before adding a single Claim).
That being said, the current processor builds might not have enough fodder to choose to return non-skaab cards back to our graveyard, and might enable him anyways.
On top of that, with OGW adding a bunch of new eldrazi, many of the newer lists are much less processor focused and rely more on just general good eldrazi cards, which skaab is powerful against.
Wait... what makes you think you can cast Skaab Ruinator when decks with maindeck Relic of Progenitus (Eldrazi and Tron) just got an unfavorable matchup banned? I'd say we can kiss any graveyard-based tricks goodbye for a while. Furthermore, we already match up favorably with both of those decks, especially now that we're all talking about packing more land hate. Relying on a Vial on 3 counters to get him onto the battlefield (because you have no graveyard to exile) is a bit of a tough ask.
Nothing that I can see. I'm in complete agreement.
Pretty much what FANAttIC said - the likes of Harbinger of the Tides, Master of Waves, and Tidebinder Mage shut R-based creature decks down hard, and Æther Vial is a critical part of competitive Merfolk in both Modern and Legacy (as described ad nauseam by the primer fron page), and shouldn't be considered as a cut unless the meta literally is 30+% BGX (and given that Tron and Affinity are looking nice, we need all the tempo boosts we can get).
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
In the side, I'm going to 3 Hurkyl's Recall. Leaving the 5 counter spells alone and going down to 2 Tidebinder Mage.
The only thing I'm unsure about are the 2 Spellskite in the SB. They were mainly for Twin, but do have application against decks like Infect, Bogles, or other decks that try to remove creatures. I'm thinking maybe they need to be Chalice of the Void instead.
Thoughts?
Creatures:
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
2 Harbinger of the Tides
2 Phantasmal Image
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Master of Waves
Artifact:
4 Aether Vial
4 Spreading Seas
Spells:
2 Vapor Snag
2 Spell Pierce
1 Dismember
Lands:
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Mutavault
2 Wanderwine Hub
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
9 Island
2 Dispel
3 Negate
2 Tidebinder Mage
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Spellskite
3 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Dismember
Current Decks:
Modern: BRG Jund BRG
Legacy: UBG BUG UBG
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
3 Harbinger of the Tides
2 Phantasmal Image
4 Master of Waves
2 Tidebinder Mage
2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
4 Aether Vial
Enchantments: (4)
4 Spreading Seas
Spells: (4)
2 Spell Pierce
2 Dismember
Lands: (19)
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
4 Mutavault
2 Wanderwine Hub
10 Island
4 Tectonic Edge
2 Dispel
2 Negate
2 Tidebinder Mage
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Echoing Truth
1 Dismember
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
I'm tending towards this for the moment to test with:
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
4 Master of Waves
3 Harbinger of the Tides
3 Tidebinder Mage
2 Phantasmal Image
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
4 Aether Vial
Enchantments: (4)
4 Spreading Seas
Spells: (4)
2 Spell Pierce
2 Vapor Snag
Lands: (19)
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Minamo, School at Water's Edge
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
4 Mutavault
2 Wanderwine Hub
9 Island
3 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Negate
2 Tectonic Edge
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Dispel
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Vapor Snag
It is quite possible that 3 Chalice of the Void are better than 2 Dispel and 3 Hurkyl's Recall, but then the two sideboard Snag become Dismember, and that allows me to add two more cards to play with for other matches.
Tempo
Modern
Eldrazi and Staxes
Whir Prison
Legacy
5c Humans
DnT
"I'm a lead farmer... !" Quote ruined due to policy.
For Mono U Merfolk:
For UW Merfolk:
Obviously Minamo and Oboro could replace Island to make the deck more resilent to Choke and Boil. The number of Seachrome Coast depends on whether Master of Waves remain popular in the new meta.
I ask this question because I have just seen an article on ModernNexus featuring a UW Merfolk list and found it intriguing because the author's land configuration is as follow:
So there are only 8 W colored mana sources in the deck. With Kor Firewalker in the side, wouldn't this manabase a tad clunky?
Thank you for your time
UMerfolkU
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1wxXtmjT0T1o3dcgqpJWkKNqcfkIobksJFA2rkK7Gf9o/edit?usp=sharing