Maybe it would be better with Voice of Resurgence then the Goyfs - You only have Land and Instant that you can quarantee will be in your graveyard, and the opponent need to supply the rest. Sure you can also add a creature. But the VoR would play well with your Unified Will in the sideboard(were you also only have enchantment, instant and creature types).
You may be right, but alas, I don't own voice and they aren't cheap. Like I should complain about that when I have goyf and nobles, still...
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So I took this list 3-0 last night at a small modern event:
Match 1: Jeskai Control
Game 1: I curve a Hierarch into Geist pretty smoothly, he Wraths the board before I can do too much damage. I then play finks and voice before he plays Magus of the Tabernacle which promptly gets Pathed. He couldn't mount a defence to the beats.
Game 2: I keep a 1-land hand with hierarch, bird, 2x two drops and a geist (can't remember other cards), I proceed to not draw a land and have to cast one creature per turn, he Wraths, plays Ghostly Prison and Magus of the Tabernacle, I can't get enough in the game and lose.
Game 3: I play 3x Voice of Resurgence and path all three Tabernacles he plays, he dies.
Match 2: BUG Faeries:
Game 1: He mulled to 4, I played Hierarch into Finks into Geist, he didn't live long.
Game 2: I played Hierarch T1, T2 I cast a Voice of Resurgence which is met with a Mana Leak, luckily I had a dispel. After that I play Pridemage and a Knight and commence beats, as he can't afford to cast spells in my turn.
Match 3: Jund
Game 1: He inquisitions me after I play a Noble Hierarch, taking a Geist of Saint Traft, I topdeck into a Knight and play that. After some playing and getting creatures removed he plays a Bob on about 11 life, Bob whittles him down as he draws terrible removal against my Voices and doesn't actually kill his Bob.
Game 2: No inquisition lets me play a T2 Geist and T3 Elspeth, he doesn't recover.
1) You're currently running 7 basics, which I consider a pretty high count for a 3 color deck. I'd probably consider cutting an island and a plains for a couple more dual lands.
2) What do you think of Stirring Wildwood in the deck. I constantly toy with the idea of jamming a manland into Bant Knightfall, but I'm never sure if the deck can take the tempo loss. I'd probably add manlands to every one of my decks if I could lol.
3) I know this is a recurring argument in this thread, but I firmly believe that even Bant lists should be running Kessig Wolf Run. Our combo is cold to a single Etched Champion. And Affinity alone has a 10% metagame share. That's not including other decks like Boggles with pro-creatures or other corner cases. The opportunity cost to do so is pretty low, and I'm convinced (for now) that it's the best utility land we can be running.
1. The basics aren't terrible, though I could see putting another utility land there (Eg. A Ghost Quarter).
2. Stirring Wildwood is pretty good, it's especially good late game when you're grinding out extra points of damage.
3. I could see Kessig being usefu, in which case I'd say 1x Stomping and/or 1x Sacred Foundry could do. I didn't get to play the affinity player to see how we went without it.
Kessig is nice even if you don't combo off. I frequently get something like nacatls going, and being able to pump and give trample to finish the game is fantastic.
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I just went to my local shop and finally gotten my hands on 4 Tarmogoyf. This is what I think I will be running after some suggestion from the players at the shop, would love to get more input from you guys here too.
1) You're currently running 7 basics, which I consider a pretty high count for a 3 color deck. I'd probably consider cutting an island and a plains for a couple more dual lands.
2) What do you think of Stirring Wildwood in the deck. I constantly toy with the idea of jamming a manland into Bant Knightfall, but I'm never sure if the deck can take the tempo loss. I'd probably add manlands to every one of my decks if I could lol.
3) I know this is a recurring argument in this thread, but I firmly believe that even Bant lists should be running Kessig Wolf Run. Our combo is cold to a single Etched Champion. And Affinity alone has a 10% metagame share. That's not including other decks like Boggles with pro-creatures or other corner cases. The opportunity cost to do so is pretty low, and I'm convinced (for now) that it's the best utility land we can be running.
I've found that 1 Treetop Village works well. It is cheap to activate, and the trample is great with Exalted triggers. It allows you to push in extra damage cheaply while still deploying other threats in the mid to late game.
Can someone help me with a sideboard?
My local have lots of jund, affinity, gr tron, grixis/ur twin, burn, merfolk, grishoadbrand, polymorph, soul sister/bw token, and a few coco elves, storm and ad nauseam. There's also 2 players who plays 8 rack and lantern control. And also the mirror as knightfall getting more and more success..
Regarding the tarmo, I would say its inclusion just totally change my playing mindcept of the deck. From "beat down as much as possible then combo to win the game" to "Aggro Aggro explosive Aggro and have no needs to cares if there's any way to combo".. Cause if that I made a lot of changes that make me wonder if it can still be called knightfall after trying to make it even more explosive and cutting down the combo part of it:
I have even thoughts of totally remove retreat to either +1 path or +1 collected company, but even with only one retreat, the chance of even if it's only 1% of getting the combo going is very attractive..
The 3 Unflinching Courage was originally in there for trying it out but it ends up much more useful and winning more games than trying to combo..
Can someone help me with a sideboard?
My local have lots of jund, affinity, gr tron, grixis/ur twin, burn, merfolk, grishoadbrand, polymorph, soul sister/bw token, and a few coco elves, storm and ad nauseam. There's also 2 players who plays 8 rack and lantern control. And also the mirror as knightfall getting more and more success..
Regarding the tarmo, I would say its inclusion just totally change my playing mindcept of the deck. From "beat down as much as possible then combo to win the game" to "Aggro Aggro explosive Aggro and have no needs to cares if there's any way to combo".. Cause if that I made a lot of changes that make me wonder if it can still be called knightfall after trying to make it even more explosive and cutting down the combo part of it:
I have even thoughts of totally remove retreat to either +1 path or +1 collected company, but even with only one retreat, the chance of even if it's only 1% of getting the combo going is very attractive..
The 3 Unflinching Courage was originally in there for trying it out but it ends up much more useful and winning more games than trying to combo..
I think you're seeing what a lot of us have. The zoo version of knight fall dilutes the zoo aggro game plan for an oops I win plan B. So as you try and optimize that deck you end up in a circle back at the standard zoo deck.
I think your match ups would improve with the hatebears version since every card I can name is pretty much already in that version of the deck, and the 75 has something that can pretty much answer almost all the decks you mentioned. I would take out the unflinching courage and play 2/2 retreat/elspeth split. Don't worry about interacting too much game 1. Race the opponent and use Elspeth and retreat to push damage through. If you accidentally combo, cool, if not, the game should be done turn 5 anyway.
Sorry, don't mean to come into this topic rudely, but I have no clue how in the hell Knightfall is in the tier 2 forums.
It's not that the deck is bad, but looking through this entire topic of lists, MTGGoldfish, MTGtop8, googling, articles, there's no coherent list of this deck whatsoever. It's a mishmash of ***** that no one can agree with yet.
A lot of these tier 1 and tier 2 lists have a fairly established set list with flex spots and numbers to tweak, especially the Zoo lists, but this---it's honestly all over the place, which is disappointing, because it has potential. Right now, the last few pages look like an all in version, which is just a *****tier version of UR Twin.
I hope the pro tour coming up helps establish some form of consistency in the Knightfall archetype, because as of now, I truly believe this should still be in the creative subset
Can someone help me with a sideboard?
My local have lots of jund, affinity, gr tron, grixis/ur twin, burn, merfolk, grishoadbrand, polymorph, soul sister/bw token, and a few coco elves, storm and ad nauseam. There's also 2 players who plays 8 rack and lantern control. And also the mirror as knightfall getting more and more success..
Regarding the tarmo, I would say its inclusion just totally change my playing mindcept of the deck. From "beat down as much as possible then combo to win the game" to "Aggro Aggro explosive Aggro and have no needs to cares if there's any way to combo".. Cause if that I made a lot of changes that make me wonder if it can still be called knightfall after trying to make it even more explosive and cutting down the combo part of it:
I have even thoughts of totally remove retreat to either +1 path or +1 collected company, but even with only one retreat, the chance of even if it's only 1% of getting the combo going is very attractive..
The 3 Unflinching Courage was originally in there for trying it out but it ends up much more useful and winning more games than trying to combo..
I think you're seeing what a lot of us have. The zoo version of knight fall dilutes the zoo aggro game plan for an oops I win plan B. So as you try and optimize that deck you end up in a circle back at the standard zoo deck.
I think your match ups would improve with the hatebears version since every card I can name is pretty much already in that version of the deck, and the 75 has something that can pretty much answer almost all the decks you mentioned. I would take out the unflinching courage and play 2/2 retreat/elspeth split. Don't worry about interacting too much game 1. Race the opponent and use Elspeth and retreat to push damage through. If you accidentally combo, cool, if not, the game should be done turn 5 anyway.
I have thought of 2/2 split of retreat and elspeth too, but the playful side of me just loves unfliching courage. The look of my opponent when I slap it on tarmo, knight and especially Geist when they didn't counter it. The frown they show when the life difference get pull further and further apart while their creature could never prevent them from taking damage by blocking due to trample. Anyway, it's just as you said, I have fallen into the loop and I'm currently at the part where finding that only one retreat for the "oops i win" is enough and slapping "sticker" on creature does better and makes the deck more versatile.. So is this still considered a knightfall deck or a zoo deck? The zoo thread does have this combo on the thread itself too..
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Current Deck(s): TappedOut Would love to have more input to improve!
Sorry, don't mean to come into this topic rudely, but I have no clue how in the hell Knightfall is in the tier 2 forums.
It's not that the deck is bad, but looking through this entire topic of lists, MTGGoldfish, MTGtop8, googling, articles, there's no coherent list of this deck whatsoever. It's a mishmash of ***** that no one can agree with yet.
A lot of these tier 1 and tier 2 lists have a fairly established set list with flex spots and numbers to tweak, especially the Zoo lists, but this---it's honestly all over the place, which is disappointing, because it has potential. Right now, the last few pages look like an all in version, which is just a *****tier version of UR Twin.
I hope the pro tour coming up helps establish some form of consistency in the Knightfall archetype, because as of now, I truly believe this should still be in the creative subset
I know where you are getting from. But to me, knightfall is more like a name of mechanic or combo and not archetype. As I followed the Bant company thread previously, I know that this thread is supposed to refer to the bant version of the knightfall mechanic, but at the same time we have the zoo that is able to adopt this combo and able to do quite well as well, and players here who plays the zoo version that adopt the combo are ended up here too as there isn't any where to post. But then again, the zoo version getting posted here ain't wrong either as they run the knightfall mechanic as well. Perhaps we should split the thread again? This time into the zoo knightfall and bant knightfall instead? just like what we have for all the different splinter twin.. While the original zoo talks abt the usual zoo, zoo knightfall will be zoo that specifically run this knightfall mechanic, and this thread shall changes name to the bant knightfall. But thread can even use the same opening primer too since the primer are pretty much actually mentioning both bant and zoo.. Just a suggestion~
I'm just saying, there's absolutely no cohesion whatsoever in this topic. IF I were semi-new to modern or zoo, I'd be confused as hell and this Knightfall thread would lack helping a player out
Like, people still can't figure out the bolt/coco/path numbers, the creatures...
I don't know, I truly feel this thread should be evaluated and see if it belongs in the tier 2 or in the still developing stage. Like I said, I hope the pro tour gives this deck some clearer direction, because it's quickly looking to be forgotten soon at this rate
To be honest, I agree that there is a lack of consensus, but in my eyes the bant version is the only version. The zoo version is zoo with a combo splashed in; just like a temur aggro or grixis control deck with a few twin combo pieces isn't really a twin deck to me. I think that the "all-in" version has demonstrated to be consistent on a superficial level that requires more results, and that the decks 75 is pretty set (w/ 4 flex spots; 2 main, 2 side).
This deck should def be in developing but whatevs.
You may be right, but alas, I don't own voice and they aren't cheap. Like I should complain about that when I have goyf and nobles, still...
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To learn more about the December metagame update, reflecting data collected throughout November, check out the following post below:
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4 Idyllic Tutor
4 Ruin Ghost
4 Tunneling Geopede
3 Chord of Calling
Would running this sideboard and turning the deck into a totally different deck works?
TappedOut
Would love to have more input to improve!
3 Birds of Paradise
3 Geist of Saint Traft
3 Kitchen Finks
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Rhox War Monk
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Voice of Resurgence
Instant - 6
2 Collected Company
4 Path to Exile
Enchantment - 3
3 Retreat to Coralhelm
Planeswalker - 2
2 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Breeding Pool
1 Flooded Strand
3 Forest
1 Gavony Township
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Plains
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Stirring Wildwood
2 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Kor Firewalker
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
2 Spellskite
1 Sun Titan
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, The Last Troll
1 Dispel
1 Negate
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghost Quarter
So I took this list 3-0 last night at a small modern event:
Match 1: Jeskai Control
Game 1: I curve a Hierarch into Geist pretty smoothly, he Wraths the board before I can do too much damage. I then play finks and voice before he plays Magus of the Tabernacle which promptly gets Pathed. He couldn't mount a defence to the beats.
Game 2: I keep a 1-land hand with hierarch, bird, 2x two drops and a geist (can't remember other cards), I proceed to not draw a land and have to cast one creature per turn, he Wraths, plays Ghostly Prison and Magus of the Tabernacle, I can't get enough in the game and lose.
Game 3: I play 3x Voice of Resurgence and path all three Tabernacles he plays, he dies.
Match 2: BUG Faeries:
Game 1: He mulled to 4, I played Hierarch into Finks into Geist, he didn't live long.
Game 2: I played Hierarch T1, T2 I cast a Voice of Resurgence which is met with a Mana Leak, luckily I had a dispel. After that I play Pridemage and a Knight and commence beats, as he can't afford to cast spells in my turn.
Match 3: Jund
Game 1: He inquisitions me after I play a Noble Hierarch, taking a Geist of Saint Traft, I topdeck into a Knight and play that. After some playing and getting creatures removed he plays a Bob on about 11 life, Bob whittles him down as he draws terrible removal against my Voices and doesn't actually kill his Bob.
Game 2: No inquisition lets me play a T2 Geist and T3 Elspeth, he doesn't recover.
Just a couples notes and questions:
1) You're currently running 7 basics, which I consider a pretty high count for a 3 color deck. I'd probably consider cutting an island and a plains for a couple more dual lands.
2) What do you think of Stirring Wildwood in the deck. I constantly toy with the idea of jamming a manland into Bant Knightfall, but I'm never sure if the deck can take the tempo loss. I'd probably add manlands to every one of my decks if I could lol.
3) I know this is a recurring argument in this thread, but I firmly believe that even Bant lists should be running Kessig Wolf Run. Our combo is cold to a single Etched Champion. And Affinity alone has a 10% metagame share. That's not including other decks like Boggles with pro-creatures or other corner cases. The opportunity cost to do so is pretty low, and I'm convinced (for now) that it's the best utility land we can be running.
Modern -
2. Stirring Wildwood is pretty good, it's especially good late game when you're grinding out extra points of damage.
3. I could see Kessig being usefu, in which case I'd say 1x Stomping and/or 1x Sacred Foundry could do. I didn't get to play the affinity player to see how we went without it.
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4 Birds of Paradise
4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Voice of Resurgence
3 Collected Company
2 Dromoka's Command
4 Path to Exile
3 Retreat to Coralhelm
4 Forest
2 Flooded Strand
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Stomping Ground
2 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Burrenton Forge-tender
2 Meddling Mage
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Spellskite
3 Stony Silence
3 Unflinching Courage
TappedOut
Would love to have more input to improve!
I've found that 1 Treetop Village works well. It is cheap to activate, and the trample is great with Exalted triggers. It allows you to push in extra damage cheaply while still deploying other threats in the mid to late game.
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Currently playing Knight of the Reliquary - Retreat to Coralhelm Combo
1. Knightfall is a tier 2 deck.
2. The name "Knightfall" stuck as the name for the deck.
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My local have lots of jund, affinity, gr tron, grixis/ur twin, burn, merfolk, grishoadbrand, polymorph, soul sister/bw token, and a few coco elves, storm and ad nauseam. There's also 2 players who plays 8 rack and lantern control. And also the mirror as knightfall getting more and more success..
Regarding the tarmo, I would say its inclusion just totally change my playing mindcept of the deck. From "beat down as much as possible then combo to win the game" to "Aggro Aggro explosive Aggro and have no needs to cares if there's any way to combo".. Cause if that I made a lot of changes that make me wonder if it can still be called knightfall after trying to make it even more explosive and cutting down the combo part of it:
3 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Collected Company
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Path to Exile
1 Retreat to Coralhelm
3 Unflinching Courage
1 Breeding Pool
3 Forest
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Plains
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Stomping Ground
2 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
Look more like zoo I think?
I have even thoughts of totally remove retreat to either +1 path or +1 collected company, but even with only one retreat, the chance of even if it's only 1% of getting the combo going is very attractive..
The 3 Unflinching Courage was originally in there for trying it out but it ends up much more useful and winning more games than trying to combo..
TappedOut
Would love to have more input to improve!
I think you're seeing what a lot of us have. The zoo version of knight fall dilutes the zoo aggro game plan for an oops I win plan B. So as you try and optimize that deck you end up in a circle back at the standard zoo deck.
I think your match ups would improve with the hatebears version since every card I can name is pretty much already in that version of the deck, and the 75 has something that can pretty much answer almost all the decks you mentioned. I would take out the unflinching courage and play 2/2 retreat/elspeth split. Don't worry about interacting too much game 1. Race the opponent and use Elspeth and retreat to push damage through. If you accidentally combo, cool, if not, the game should be done turn 5 anyway.
It's not that the deck is bad, but looking through this entire topic of lists, MTGGoldfish, MTGtop8, googling, articles, there's no coherent list of this deck whatsoever. It's a mishmash of ***** that no one can agree with yet.
A lot of these tier 1 and tier 2 lists have a fairly established set list with flex spots and numbers to tweak, especially the Zoo lists, but this---it's honestly all over the place, which is disappointing, because it has potential. Right now, the last few pages look like an all in version, which is just a *****tier version of UR Twin.
I hope the pro tour coming up helps establish some form of consistency in the Knightfall archetype, because as of now, I truly believe this should still be in the creative subset
I have thought of 2/2 split of retreat and elspeth too, but the playful side of me just loves unfliching courage. The look of my opponent when I slap it on tarmo, knight and especially Geist when they didn't counter it. The frown they show when the life difference get pull further and further apart while their creature could never prevent them from taking damage by blocking due to trample. Anyway, it's just as you said, I have fallen into the loop and I'm currently at the part where finding that only one retreat for the "oops i win" is enough and slapping "sticker" on creature does better and makes the deck more versatile.. So is this still considered a knightfall deck or a zoo deck? The zoo thread does have this combo on the thread itself too..
TappedOut
Would love to have more input to improve!
I know where you are getting from. But to me, knightfall is more like a name of mechanic or combo and not archetype. As I followed the Bant company thread previously, I know that this thread is supposed to refer to the bant version of the knightfall mechanic, but at the same time we have the zoo that is able to adopt this combo and able to do quite well as well, and players here who plays the zoo version that adopt the combo are ended up here too as there isn't any where to post. But then again, the zoo version getting posted here ain't wrong either as they run the knightfall mechanic as well. Perhaps we should split the thread again? This time into the zoo knightfall and bant knightfall instead? just like what we have for all the different splinter twin.. While the original zoo talks abt the usual zoo, zoo knightfall will be zoo that specifically run this knightfall mechanic, and this thread shall changes name to the bant knightfall. But thread can even use the same opening primer too since the primer are pretty much actually mentioning both bant and zoo.. Just a suggestion~
TappedOut
Would love to have more input to improve!
Like, people still can't figure out the bolt/coco/path numbers, the creatures...
I don't know, I truly feel this thread should be evaluated and see if it belongs in the tier 2 or in the still developing stage. Like I said, I hope the pro tour gives this deck some clearer direction, because it's quickly looking to be forgotten soon at this rate
This deck should def be in developing but whatevs.
In a meta with lots of Liliana, Smiter wins.
In a meta with lots of Jeskai Control, Geist might be better.
It's obviously not that simple, but the deck can also choose from Finks, Clique, Rhox War Monk ... Just in the 3 drop.
After that, if Smiter is good, then so is Wilt-Leaf Liege as opposed to maybe Elspeth in the 4 drop.
Is Lightning Bolt better than CoCo? The deck changes.
This makes it very hard to determine a proper 75. The constant is the Knightfall combo.
Then think about play style .... The fact is that Knightfall as a two card combo validates a few different archetypes. Doesn't mean it's not tier 2.