The dork question is interesting. I played 8 dorks for years, but recently tried cutting a bird. Eight dorks gives you a 65% (60% first mull) chance of having at least one in your opener, where seven gives you a 60% (54% first mull). So about 5% less opening hands have a dork. In trade for that 5% you get better companies (21 vs 20 non-dork hits) and better topdecks later in the game, by some marginal amount.
I don't mind cutting the bird, but it's probably a bit greedy. That greed is more likely to pay off in a grindy metagame than a fast metagame. So maybe consider it to be a midrange/control meta vs aggro/combo meta question. You need consistency of comboing in aggro/combo metas - so play 8 dorks and 3 retreats. In midrange/control metas, you can go down to 6-7 dorks and 2 retreats.
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I've only been playing 7 dorks when playing the deck. I"d go up to 8 if I knew every deck I was up against was going to be combo, but against anything else (including RG titan shift and Goryo's) I would not want that 8th dork. Since we aren't too reliant on producing a lot of mana quickly I don't think the chance of getting a dork in mid-late game is worth it.
I picked up Tireless Tracker a while back, put one in the deck, then put another, and I'm looking to put in a third. The reason is she provides a lot with one card. Grindy opponents remove her before knight, midrange remove her because she grows quickly, and control heavy remove her because she provides good card advantage. she tends to be my favorite hit on CoCo besides knight. She's not that good in the opening 7, but I'm almost guaranteed to be happy to draw her mid-late game.
I've been testing a single Wargate in the place of my 3rd retreat, and I'm quite happy with it. I've used it to fetch retreat twice and combo off the following turn, used it to fetch selfless to protect against an Anger of the Gods, and I've used it twice to get tireless tracker to grind out a esper control.
I feel like i'd want chord more of the time then wargate, or just more card drawer filtering if you're worried about getting a retreat in your hand, wargate feels very expensive but it sounds like it's worked for you. I'm inclined to mess around more with evolution or chord soon.
Todd Stevens just put an article up with Vizier of the menagerie as a one of in this deck. I'm not sure since you can't hit it with company but it seems ok. What do you guys think?
The more I think about that new Nissa the more i like her. I really want to give her a shot at least, the filtering with the scry and the power of putting creatures straight out seems amazing, and she can either be a great turn 2 play with a dork on one or a game ender later on when you have tons of mana. Seems great, but maybe I'm wrong. Our deck is definitely the deck for her if she does see modern at all.
In regards to dorks. Why is it 4 hierarchs? Birds help with kessig. Rhonas would replace a tracker right. I prefer tracker. Nissa could replace the 3rd retreat. She helps us filter to get one along with putting stuff on the board
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tracker is really good if your meta is not aggro heavy, she just does a lot a lot in anything midrange or control heavy.
True, very true, Tireless Tracker is great against non aggro because it gives card advantage. When you have more stuff than control can kill, you win. When you edge out midrange, you win. Cards help with that. The fact that you can sac the clue on endstep is great.
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There's this corner case scenario about tireless tracker and clue tokens that can come up occasionally. You don't have to sacrifice the clue by its own ability to gain the +1/+1 bonus. You can sacrifice them to annihilator triggers for example and tracker still gets the buff. It's a small thing to take note of if there are people who like playing Nahiri in your area.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
I think the cut for one or both of those is between finks/war monk, evolution or one of the lands for me, again you kind of have to guess what you'll see. If you're sure you'll see living end you'll need bog obviously, and cutting ghost quarter is probably right for the tracker in order to fight back vs the other decks like elves and such.
@begle You can cut the Staticaster for the Tracker. They do the same things. I think you can cut a Reflector Mage for the Eidolon if you have 2 in the Mainboard.
I'm mostly trying to find some room for ulvenwald tracker and eidolon of rhetoric but I'm at a loss on what to cut. I usually have a fairly hard time agains aggro and burn, elves, melira and living end.
Worth noting that I'm running 2x Reflectos on my MB until I get to buy a tireless tracker and a voice.
Cut War Monk (that card is just bad) and either Negate or Kitchen Finks. I suppose you could cut Izzet Staticaster since it serves a similar purpose to Tracker, but that card has won me too many games for me to advise that.
War monk > kitchen finks with knightfall due to kessig (and exalted) synergy. If you don't have kessig, finks is better. Rhox War Monk is a fine card in the proper matchup. Ever had a dredge player try to win through a rhox war monk? Abzan/jund needs multiple threats to race it. Call it bad all you want, but the card wins games.
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I think Kitchen Finks is a horrible card for the sideboard. For the burn match up the life gain is most important, but any Atarka's Command or Skullcrack means you have dropped a 3/2 for 3 that does nothing. You then need it to block to gain the life again. There are a certain subsets of games when Kitchen Finks will never block because your burn opponent will just cast Instants and Sorceries to finish the game.
Against any grindy midrange or control match up the Kitchen Finks will eat a removal spell. But before that it gains you no card advantage and once it is a 2/1 it cannot attack through anything. In addition that life gain does not turn into more cards because it does not add a turn to your clock in terms of staying alive. (staying alive lets you draw a card for another turn)
As a result I leave the Kitchen Finks out of my board and instead go with Rhox War Monk and Courser of Kruphix. Both these cards force your Burn opponent to have multiple Skullcracks over time. Then, in the grindy/control games Kruphix allows me to draw actual cards over time.
Thats just my 2 cents but I think Kitchen Finks is a trap.
War monk > kitchen finks with knightfall due to kessig (and exalted) synergy. If you don't have kessig, finks is better. Rhox War Monk is a fine card in the proper matchup. Ever had a dredge player try to win through a rhox war monk? Abzan/jund needs multiple threats to race it. Call it bad all you want, but the card wins games.
To be clear, I don't think Kitchen Finks is good either. Against Burn I just run Blessed Alliance, Courser and Scavenging Ooze along with 1 Spellskite. I've never had too much trouble with that matchup.
Rhox War Monk is not the answer to Dredge. At most it can slow them down but it won't beat an overwhelming board position, not to mention they can conflagrate it with relative ease.
As for Kessig with War Monk, sure the lifelink is nice, but you're talking about activating your one-of colorless land using red mana with your green/white/blue creature. That's magical Christmasland in a fast matchup like Burn where life total conservation is imperative. You can tutor for it with Knight but if you're doing that you're probably already winning.
War Monk is just unimpressive. A vanilla 3/4 for 3 with lifelink just doesn't cut it. The threshold for a 3-drop that doesn't give immediate value is very high (Knight is pretty much the only one I can think of that sees consistent play).
Rhox war monk isn't going to single-handedly beat anything - nor are blessed alliances. I wasn't aware that this was a requirement of a card for it to appear in the SB.
You don't have to play the card, but you're not evaluating the card fairly. A vanilla 3/4 for 3 with lifelink does, has and will continue to "cut it" as a flexible option against any deck that wants to race you with creatures. Regarding dredge, you're making a poor point if you are claiming finks/blessed alliance are better. Rhox is just applicable in enough matchups to earn a single spot in my sb.
Just because you can't win games with it doesn't mean it doesn't perform a function some people are finding success with. Your "magical christmas land" scenario is gg when it happens, and is simply describing an upside Rhox has over Finks.
My "burn" SB includes 2 blessed alliance, rhox and another scooze which is often more than enough to get there. People play(ed?) Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet for this type of matchup, which is just a more expensive and grindier version of the same card. I think you should dial back your denunciation of the card.
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Regarding dredge, you're making a poor point if you are claiming finks/blessed alliance are better.
I stated upfront that I don't think Kitchen Finks is good either. It's marginally better against Abzan, Jund, Living End and any control deck, but worse against Burn (debatable), Revolt Zoo and Dredge. Still not great overall. I'd still choose Finks over War Monk most of the time, though, if I had to play one of them (I don't play either).
Blessed Alliance is not there for Dredge at all; I don't think anyone is making that claim. It has way more versatility than either Finks of War Monk though. It's excellent against Death's Shadow, Burn, Zoo, Infect and Bogles just to name a few.
If you feel you need extra slots against Burn or Revolt Zoo, sure, play Rhox War Monk. I don't think it's good enough to be a staple, but it has its niche in the right meta so, I suppose calling it flat out bad might be too harsh.
"Grasping Dunes
Land - Desert
T: Add <> to your mana pool.
1, T, Sacrifice Grasping Dunes: Put a -1/-1 counter on target creature. Activate this ability only any time you could cast a sorcery."
Let me state right off the bat that I don't think this is good enough to play even in the sideboard currently. It's too narrow and less useful than any of our other utility lands.
...that being said, imagine if this had been legal during the meta where Infect was the top deck. An Knight of the Reliquary could then tap to kill any infect creature (except for Nexi, for which Knight can fetch Ghost Quarter). Pump spells not named Vines of Vastwood or Blossoming Defense, wouldn't save them, nor would Spell Pierce
Point is, this is a nice option to have with Knight, even if the time isn't right currently.
If you are splashing red, there is no reason not to include an Izzet Staticaster. The card is vastly too flexible. It can (sometimes) kill 20 of the top 50 most played creatures in modern. Granted, I wouldn't bring it in against every deck where it can kill something, but, when I do bring it in, it is one of the best cards in my deck. For example, I don't think we can beat elves without it and I don't think they can beat us with it.
As for the whole discussion on Rhox War Monk, there is no denying that the card is good. I can easily see it being run in people's sideboard. In some metas, the card is justified. I just searched mtgtop8 and two knightfall decks were running it in their sideboard. Of course, those tournaments were small. I bring this up because I would be shocked to see the card at a major tournament event. Burn doesn't dominate the metagame and there are just more flexible cards. Of course, Rhox War Monk is powerful and good at what it does, but modern is too diverse a field to justify it at large events.
In terms of Kitchen Finks, I'm not a fan. I understand the card's power, your opponent has to kill it at least twice, but knightfall is full of must kill creatures. Frequently, Kitchen Finks feels like the least must-kill, non-dork, post-board creature in the deck. To further elaborate, I have only lost three matches in the past month (out of 30). I don't think drawing a Finks would have made much of a difference in those games.
You need more practice in order to figure out what the goal is when playing against them. Jund death shadow is the best deck in modern right now so don't be upset if you lose to it often but I do think we have a good match-up against them.
Duskwatch Recruiter seems like a quality card. Gettiing creatures as a human and making them less difficult to cast as a werewolf also seems good. It's a 2 drop and can get hit with CoCo.
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I don't mind cutting the bird, but it's probably a bit greedy. That greed is more likely to pay off in a grindy metagame than a fast metagame. So maybe consider it to be a midrange/control meta vs aggro/combo meta question. You need consistency of comboing in aggro/combo metas - so play 8 dorks and 3 retreats. In midrange/control metas, you can go down to 6-7 dorks and 2 retreats.
KnightfallGWUR
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I've only been playing 7 dorks when playing the deck. I"d go up to 8 if I knew every deck I was up against was going to be combo, but against anything else (including RG titan shift and Goryo's) I would not want that 8th dork. Since we aren't too reliant on producing a lot of mana quickly I don't think the chance of getting a dork in mid-late game is worth it.
I picked up Tireless Tracker a while back, put one in the deck, then put another, and I'm looking to put in a third. The reason is she provides a lot with one card. Grindy opponents remove her before knight, midrange remove her because she grows quickly, and control heavy remove her because she provides good card advantage. she tends to be my favorite hit on CoCo besides knight. She's not that good in the opening 7, but I'm almost guaranteed to be happy to draw her mid-late game.
I've been testing a single Wargate in the place of my 3rd retreat, and I'm quite happy with it. I've used it to fetch retreat twice and combo off the following turn, used it to fetch selfless to protect against an Anger of the Gods, and I've used it twice to get tireless tracker to grind out a esper control.
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Todd Stevens just put an article up with Vizier of the menagerie as a one of in this deck. I'm not sure since you can't hit it with company but it seems ok. What do you guys think?
The more I think about that new Nissa the more i like her. I really want to give her a shot at least, the filtering with the scry and the power of putting creatures straight out seems amazing, and she can either be a great turn 2 play with a dork on one or a game ender later on when you have tons of mana. Seems great, but maybe I'm wrong. Our deck is definitely the deck for her if she does see modern at all.
True, very true, Tireless Tracker is great against non aggro because it gives card advantage. When you have more stuff than control can kill, you win. When you edge out midrange, you win. Cards help with that. The fact that you can sac the clue on endstep is great.
Cut War Monk (that card is just bad) and either Negate or Kitchen Finks. I suppose you could cut Izzet Staticaster since it serves a similar purpose to Tracker, but that card has won me too many games for me to advise that.
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I think Kitchen Finks is a horrible card for the sideboard. For the burn match up the life gain is most important, but any Atarka's Command or Skullcrack means you have dropped a 3/2 for 3 that does nothing. You then need it to block to gain the life again. There are a certain subsets of games when Kitchen Finks will never block because your burn opponent will just cast Instants and Sorceries to finish the game.
Against any grindy midrange or control match up the Kitchen Finks will eat a removal spell. But before that it gains you no card advantage and once it is a 2/1 it cannot attack through anything. In addition that life gain does not turn into more cards because it does not add a turn to your clock in terms of staying alive. (staying alive lets you draw a card for another turn)
As a result I leave the Kitchen Finks out of my board and instead go with Rhox War Monk and Courser of Kruphix. Both these cards force your Burn opponent to have multiple Skullcracks over time. Then, in the grindy/control games Kruphix allows me to draw actual cards over time.
Thats just my 2 cents but I think Kitchen Finks is a trap.
To be clear, I don't think Kitchen Finks is good either. Against Burn I just run Blessed Alliance, Courser and Scavenging Ooze along with 1 Spellskite. I've never had too much trouble with that matchup.
Rhox War Monk is not the answer to Dredge. At most it can slow them down but it won't beat an overwhelming board position, not to mention they can conflagrate it with relative ease.
As for Kessig with War Monk, sure the lifelink is nice, but you're talking about activating your one-of colorless land using red mana with your green/white/blue creature. That's magical Christmasland in a fast matchup like Burn where life total conservation is imperative. You can tutor for it with Knight but if you're doing that you're probably already winning.
War Monk is just unimpressive. A vanilla 3/4 for 3 with lifelink just doesn't cut it. The threshold for a 3-drop that doesn't give immediate value is very high (Knight is pretty much the only one I can think of that sees consistent play).
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You don't have to play the card, but you're not evaluating the card fairly. A vanilla 3/4 for 3 with lifelink does, has and will continue to "cut it" as a flexible option against any deck that wants to race you with creatures. Regarding dredge, you're making a poor point if you are claiming finks/blessed alliance are better. Rhox is just applicable in enough matchups to earn a single spot in my sb.
Just because you can't win games with it doesn't mean it doesn't perform a function some people are finding success with. Your "magical christmas land" scenario is gg when it happens, and is simply describing an upside Rhox has over Finks.
My "burn" SB includes 2 blessed alliance, rhox and another scooze which is often more than enough to get there. People play(ed?) Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet for this type of matchup, which is just a more expensive and grindier version of the same card. I think you should dial back your denunciation of the card.
KnightfallGWUR
Azorius Control UW
Burn RBG
I stated upfront that I don't think Kitchen Finks is good either. It's marginally better against Abzan, Jund, Living End and any control deck, but worse against Burn (debatable), Revolt Zoo and Dredge. Still not great overall. I'd still choose Finks over War Monk most of the time, though, if I had to play one of them (I don't play either).
Blessed Alliance is not there for Dredge at all; I don't think anyone is making that claim. It has way more versatility than either Finks of War Monk though. It's excellent against Death's Shadow, Burn, Zoo, Infect and Bogles just to name a few.
If you feel you need extra slots against Burn or Revolt Zoo, sure, play Rhox War Monk. I don't think it's good enough to be a staple, but it has its niche in the right meta so, I suppose calling it flat out bad might be too harsh.
Let's talk about Grasping Dunes for a moment:
"Grasping Dunes
Land - Desert
T: Add <> to your mana pool.
1, T, Sacrifice Grasping Dunes: Put a -1/-1 counter on target creature. Activate this ability only any time you could cast a sorcery."
Let me state right off the bat that I don't think this is good enough to play even in the sideboard currently. It's too narrow and less useful than any of our other utility lands.
...that being said, imagine if this had been legal during the meta where Infect was the top deck. An Knight of the Reliquary could then tap to kill any infect creature (except for Nexi, for which Knight can fetch Ghost Quarter). Pump spells not named Vines of Vastwood or Blossoming Defense, wouldn't save them, nor would Spell Pierce
Point is, this is a nice option to have with Knight, even if the time isn't right currently.
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I'll agree that Tireless Tracker is also a good card, but I don't think it and Izzet Staticaster serve the same role. Rather, I think Tireless Tracker, Vendilion Clique, and Courser of Kruphix all server similar roles.
As for the whole discussion on Rhox War Monk, there is no denying that the card is good. I can easily see it being run in people's sideboard. In some metas, the card is justified. I just searched mtgtop8 and two knightfall decks were running it in their sideboard. Of course, those tournaments were small. I bring this up because I would be shocked to see the card at a major tournament event. Burn doesn't dominate the metagame and there are just more flexible cards. Of course, Rhox War Monk is powerful and good at what it does, but modern is too diverse a field to justify it at large events.
In terms of Kitchen Finks, I'm not a fan. I understand the card's power, your opponent has to kill it at least twice, but knightfall is full of must kill creatures. Frequently, Kitchen Finks feels like the least must-kill, non-dork, post-board creature in the deck. To further elaborate, I have only lost three matches in the past month (out of 30). I don't think drawing a Finks would have made much of a difference in those games.