I would definitely test it both ways, but I think smiter is straight up stronger in your deck than souls. Especially since it's a lot stronger vs. remand, giving you extra tools in the twin matchup. A 4-pack of liege and smiter is going to give Lily decks a really hard time, since they just cannot +1 against you without thoughtseizing/inquisitioning first (and even then sometimes).
With the +1 if she +1s you just discard the Souls and then flash them back or even better than Smiter or Souls you'd discard Liege. I can see why an aggressive player would want Smiter, it's a big beater. Souls take synergy but can still beat though, Souls for 5 mana the turn after you drop Liege can put 4, 2/2 flyers onto the field so they have that aggressive slant still. Flashback is another mana sink+wrath insurance too and makes most counter-spells inherently worse anyway.
I do like the idea of t1 dork, t2 Smiter beating Remand with Smiter but I don't like the idea of Smiter dying to Abrupt Decay. I'd run Smiter over Reliquary Knight because of Remand if I wasn't running the Knightfall combo. If I didn't need so many Forests/Plains for the combo I could run a couple of copies of Cavern of Souls as well. Since this deck is a Knightfall deck though I'll need to work within those limitations and likely need to playtest this. Ultimately I don't think there will be a clear answer, it will just be a meta call.
Smiter doesn't need to beat remand. For lily hate, Smiters is amazing. Rather than discard souls and pay 2 mana to get 2 souls, just discard the Smiters into play.
The reason why Little Kid Abzan smashed BGx is the Smiters wilt leaf combo. But little Kid is a mets deck. If BGx falls out of favor, it is just ok.
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Goyf will always be okay, even here, with what the other person does even if he's small will usually be a 3/4 or 4/5 for 2 mana, that's playable. There's no doubt he's better in a jund build but he's fine here. I think voice is much more impressive though. There's also nothing to say he needs to be a 4-of either. Why not have 2? Goyf actually is a respectable late draw as a threat and is cheap enough that you can still hold mana up or play other things, maybe it's an inexpensive threat you do want to see latter rather than in your opening hand in this deck
I agree with this sentiment of goyf. I don't have my list on hand, but probably should post it soon since 2 goyf has been the sweet spot for my bant coco list. He is definitely an all-star when it comes to grinding, but to have him ran out and die to anger is pretty frustrating since we have little gas ourselves to make him dumb before turn 4.
I have played him and he's plenty fine, just inferior to other options in my opinion Won a lot of games off of 6/7 and 7/8 goyfs off of hangarback/courser pumping him from the yard. But voice was always better at protecting the combo and screwing with people's tempo (for me).
I'm running a 4 voice / 2 goyf split for the 2 drops. Voice has been an all-star for me against infect and twin where we can bait instants out of our opponent's hand with path. Voice, GQ, and path helped me absolutely crush two opponents each playing infect last FNM where I technically should not have done so well against their draws.
You can discard Wilt-Leaf from your hand against her +1 which is better than discarding Smiter. Wilt-Leaf wont eat Abrupt Decay. Do you need 8 copies for her +1 when you have a serviceable backup in flashback Souls?
The beauty of this deck is that it's not just Little Kid. It's not really Little Kid at all. It runs heavy mana acceleration letting you play 5 cost Souls the turn after Lord, it lets you use Townships to pump small bodies, it can drop t3 Sigarda with Coralhelm. It runs an Exalted curve for 10 damage t3 potentially killing t4 and runs a t3 kill combo alongside an attrition gameplan.
I feel I've managed to glue all of that into one deck via a lot of synergy. Knight, even outside of the combo, is a massive beatstick with fetchlands and Lords. Coralhelm outside of the combo is less useful but still a way to ramp harder or tap blockers. Pridemage hates on the things that can shut this deck down completely like Blood Moon while having synergy with Lords. Outside of the Exalted curve Elspeth is a Planeswalker making her a hard target for some decks and she can build her own chump blockers that get buffed via Lords + townships. Dorks give you a faster combo but can also become serviceable creatures.
So some rambling here so please bear with me but is Retreat good for the aggro archetype to have access to?
I like zoo builds I like to jam some creatures for explosive turn 2 attacks. Against Tier decks, this often ends up in a few ways.
1 you face a slow deck or draw and rush them finish with burn.
2 you face a sweeper/removal heavy deck, and cannot keep pressure, with no real CA, you lose the long game. Collected Company fixed this a bit.
3 you face down a synergy aggro (ally or slivers) and get buried under cumulative advantage that our dumb beats look...dumb beside.
4 our interaction isn't high so we have to just take it against combo sometimes.
I think everyone will admit that zoo type builds are teir 2 at best but I see this combo as something of a cheap out maybe? Like, I don't know what I am trying to articulate but I felt bad I guess that my 'dumb kids deck' could do something I am very used to seeing and doing with my Twin. I don't know but it feels pretty strong, and I wouldn't be shocked to see Zoo go to teir 1 with this.
So some rambling here so please bear with me but is Retreat good for the aggro archetype to have access to?
I like zoo builds I like to jam some creatures for explosive turn 2 attacks. Against Tier decks, this often ends up in a few ways.
1 you face a slow deck or draw and rush them finish with burn.
2 you face a sweeper/removal heavy deck, and cannot keep pressure, with no real CA, you lose the long game. Collected Company fixed this a bit.
3 you face down a synergy aggro (ally or slivers) and get buried under cumulative advantage that our dumb beats look...dumb beside.
4 our interaction isn't high so we have to just take it against combo sometimes.
I think everyone will admit that zoo type builds are teir 2 at best but I see this combo as something of a cheap out maybe? Like, I don't know what I am trying to articulate but I felt bad I guess that my 'dumb kids deck' could do something I am very used to seeing and doing with my Twin. I don't know but it feels pretty strong, and I wouldn't be shocked to see Zoo go to teir 1 with this.
What kind of Zoo because Retreat on it's own probably isn't that useful for most of them. You could maybe run some sort of Landfall Zoo, the Scapeshift one. Prismatic Omen makes everything a Mountain so that could smooth that out and you'd have two combos in the deck, the Molten Pinnacle burn and the Knight combo. You could try squeeze it into the Tribal Flames deck as well I suppose, that's a rainbow midrange thing anyway. I wouldn't try running Red/Green/White/Blue aggro.
Adding 1 Island, 1 Hallowed Fountain is minimal investment to the mana base and we have mana dorks where a hierarch is hardly bad. I guess I just think it gives that instant win potential, and it feels off to me.
Also Geist is easy to get in, heck you could put the combo in Counter cat if you wanted.
Edit: maybe that's the issue, it isn't about synergy, it's just + Retreat and the power level shifts hard?
Adding 1 Island, 1 Hallowed Fountain is minimal investment to the mana base and we have mana dorks where a hierarch is hardly bad. I guess I just think it gives that instant win potential, and it feels off to me.
Also Geist is easy to get in, heck you could put the combo in Counter cat if you wanted.
Edit: maybe that's the issue, it isn't about synergy, it's just + Retreat and the power level shifts hard?
You want to run Retreat which is a 3 drop and not a powerhouse on it's own. You want to run Knight which is a 3 drop. You're talking Geist? You're talking a lot of 3 drops. A lot of 3 drops is midrange, not aggro. You could build an aggressive Bant deck around that but it wouldn't be a Zoo. If you're just splashing Blue into a Red/Green deck you need to ask yourself why not drop the Knight and run Deceiver Exarch and Splinter Twin as well.
I run twin, it's the main deck I play in mtgo and the only one I have in paper.
I agree, retreat by itself isn't strong, I guess the power level just isn't what I am used to in either 1 drop or Big zoo, so it feels like quite a jump from a more fair/casual whatever you want to call it to a potential teir one list that can very much pull a win off a top deck. Which is fine, just not the same power level at all that it was before.
I run twin, it's the main deck I play in mtgo and the only one I have in paper.
I agree, retreat by itself isn't strong, I guess the power level just isn't what I am used to in either 1 drop or Big zoo, so it feels like quite a jump from a more fair/casual whatever you want to call it to a potential teir one list that can very much pull a win off a top deck. Which is fine, just not the same power level at all that it was before.
Did you see the deck I posted? I feel that's a pretty competitive deck as it is minus the Retreats. You could run that deck, taking the four copies of Retreat out and putting something else in and it would still be a very competitive deck.
As for KnightFall's place in the meta... there are obviously going to be a lot of debates about how to utilize this combo right. What makes it good. What makes it bad. I feel like making Retreat useful outside of the combo will be a big part of optimizing it.
Sidenote - my main deck is a rogue thing of my own creation. It's Aether Vial / Tidehollow Sculler / Meddling Mage at the core. It's an aggro Esper deck with a really fast clock. It's very unassuming at first until you see the kind of bull***** I can pull with it.
Adding 1 Island, 1 Hallowed Fountain is minimal investment to the mana base and we have mana dorks where a hierarch is hardly bad. I guess I just think it gives that instant win potential, and it feels off to me.
Also Geist is easy to get in, heck you could put the combo in Counter cat if you wanted.
Edit: maybe that's the issue, it isn't about synergy, it's just + Retreat and the power level shifts hard?
You want to run Retreat which is a 3 drop and not a powerhouse on it's own. You want to run Knight which is a 3 drop. You're talking Geist? You're talking a lot of 3 drops. A lot of 3 drops is midrange, not aggro. You could build an aggressive Bant deck around that but it wouldn't be a Zoo. If you're just splashing Blue into a Red/Green deck you need to ask yourself why not drop the Knight and run Deceiver Exarch and Splinter Twin as well.
I think I've seen idSurge in the Zoo thread; the typical Retreat Zoo list is Naya Splash Blue. It's Medium Zoo that's relatively similar to current Naya Collected Company Zoo builds.
So over the next little bit I should get to do some pretty decent testing. I've got a bunch of friends with different decks that ill be able to get together with periodically through the week so i should get some slow controlled testing with the ability grind game ones and post board games and switch maybe-board cards in on the fly.
The decks we should have access to in the gauntlet are GR Tron, U Tron, Affinity, Jund, Grixis Control, Grixis Delver, all 3 Twin variants, UW control, Naya Chord, boggles and merfolk. These arnt going to be in all one night, so ill try to write mini reports on the match-ups as we get through them, so it could take a week or so (or longer haha) but hopefully it ends up being helpful.
Adding 1 Island, 1 Hallowed Fountain is minimal investment to the mana base and we have mana dorks where a hierarch is hardly bad. I guess I just think it gives that instant win potential, and it feels off to me.
Also Geist is easy to get in, heck you could put the combo in Counter cat if you wanted.
Edit: maybe that's the issue, it isn't about synergy, it's just + Retreat and the power level shifts hard?
You want to run Retreat which is a 3 drop and not a powerhouse on it's own. You want to run Knight which is a 3 drop. You're talking Geist? You're talking a lot of 3 drops. A lot of 3 drops is midrange, not aggro. You could build an aggressive Bant deck around that but it wouldn't be a Zoo. If you're just splashing Blue into a Red/Green deck you need to ask yourself why not drop the Knight and run Deceiver Exarch and Splinter Twin as well.
I think I've seen idSurge in the Zoo thread; the typical Retreat Zoo list is Naya Splash Blue. It's Medium Zoo that's relatively similar to current Naya Collected Company Zoo builds.
Yeah it very easily just slots in to my big zoo (or even just a rush zoo its not hard), and changes up the dynamic. Its not a terrible thing, its just a change to how the deck plays and warps it in a way that feels like not so much what I 'signed up for' if that makes sense. :]
Comparing Retreat to Coralhelm to Splinter Twin, retreat is a better card. 3CMC vs 4CMC. Has lasting utility as the game goes on. Not a completely dead card in your hand, helps you find your combo pieces and other answers. And it is functional in multiples. I am mostly a twin player (the first deck I took seriously in modern), and Twin is just a horrible card to have in your and if you don't have any of your combo pieces. At least I can use retreat to some other utility.
I have started trying out the Zoo list, and the biggest thing I notices is Bolt is good. Making a bigger red splash in the bant list for Bolt is something to really consider.
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Comparing Retreat to Coralhelm to Splinter Twin, retreat is a better card. 3CMC vs 4CMC. Has lasting utility as the game goes on. Not a completely dead card in your hand, helps you find your combo pieces and other answers. And it is functional in multiples. I am mostly a twin player (the first deck I took seriously in modern), and Twin is just a horrible card to have in your and if you don't have any of your combo pieces. At least I can use retreat to some other utility.
I have started trying out the Zoo list, and the biggest thing I notices is Bolt is good. Making a bigger red splash in the bant list for Bolt is something to really consider.
I've played Twin alot myself and Splinter Twin on Snapcaster/Clique is pretty neat. Post-board, it even works well on Spellskite. I wouldn't say it's completely dead without Pestermite/Exarch.
Twin invites you to get 2-for-1'd by creature removal. Retreat never results in you getting 2-for-1'd. It's also cheaper. It's a much better engine.
As restoration angel and kiki-jiki can attest to, combo pieces that are both strong separately have a lot going for them--that's the main appeal of Knightfall, I think. The difficulty is making Retreat actually good on its own as opposed to "not terrible." In the zoo lists it's just "not terrible," imho.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I do like the idea of t1 dork, t2 Smiter beating Remand with Smiter but I don't like the idea of Smiter dying to Abrupt Decay. I'd run Smiter over Reliquary Knight because of Remand if I wasn't running the Knightfall combo. If I didn't need so many Forests/Plains for the combo I could run a couple of copies of Cavern of Souls as well. Since this deck is a Knightfall deck though I'll need to work within those limitations and likely need to playtest this. Ultimately I don't think there will be a clear answer, it will just be a meta call.
The reason why Little Kid Abzan smashed BGx is the Smiters wilt leaf combo. But little Kid is a mets deck. If BGx falls out of favor, it is just ok.
I agree with this sentiment of goyf. I don't have my list on hand, but probably should post it soon since 2 goyf has been the sweet spot for my bant coco list. He is definitely an all-star when it comes to grinding, but to have him ran out and die to anger is pretty frustrating since we have little gas ourselves to make him dumb before turn 4.
I'm running a 4 voice / 2 goyf split for the 2 drops. Voice has been an all-star for me against infect and twin where we can bait instants out of our opponent's hand with path. Voice, GQ, and path helped me absolutely crush two opponents each playing infect last FNM where I technically should not have done so well against their draws.
The beauty of this deck is that it's not just Little Kid. It's not really Little Kid at all. It runs heavy mana acceleration letting you play 5 cost Souls the turn after Lord, it lets you use Townships to pump small bodies, it can drop t3 Sigarda with Coralhelm. It runs an Exalted curve for 10 damage t3 potentially killing t4 and runs a t3 kill combo alongside an attrition gameplan.
I feel I've managed to glue all of that into one deck via a lot of synergy. Knight, even outside of the combo, is a massive beatstick with fetchlands and Lords. Coralhelm outside of the combo is less useful but still a way to ramp harder or tap blockers. Pridemage hates on the things that can shut this deck down completely like Blood Moon while having synergy with Lords. Outside of the Exalted curve Elspeth is a Planeswalker making her a hard target for some decks and she can build her own chump blockers that get buffed via Lords + townships. Dorks give you a faster combo but can also become serviceable creatures.
1. Forest -> Hierarch
2. Temple Garden -> Knight
3. Retreat -> Combo kill.
I felt bad.
Spirits
@Spountercell i am also on 2 goyfs and am happy with that number for now.
I like zoo builds I like to jam some creatures for explosive turn 2 attacks. Against Tier decks, this often ends up in a few ways.
1 you face a slow deck or draw and rush them finish with burn.
2 you face a sweeper/removal heavy deck, and cannot keep pressure, with no real CA, you lose the long game. Collected Company fixed this a bit.
3 you face down a synergy aggro (ally or slivers) and get buried under cumulative advantage that our dumb beats look...dumb beside.
4 our interaction isn't high so we have to just take it against combo sometimes.
I think everyone will admit that zoo type builds are teir 2 at best but I see this combo as something of a cheap out maybe? Like, I don't know what I am trying to articulate but I felt bad I guess that my 'dumb kids deck' could do something I am very used to seeing and doing with my Twin. I don't know but it feels pretty strong, and I wouldn't be shocked to see Zoo go to teir 1 with this.
Spirits
What kind of Zoo because Retreat on it's own probably isn't that useful for most of them. You could maybe run some sort of Landfall Zoo, the Scapeshift one. Prismatic Omen makes everything a Mountain so that could smooth that out and you'd have two combos in the deck, the Molten Pinnacle burn and the Knight combo. You could try squeeze it into the Tribal Flames deck as well I suppose, that's a rainbow midrange thing anyway. I wouldn't try running Red/Green/White/Blue aggro.
Also Geist is easy to get in, heck you could put the combo in Counter cat if you wanted.
Edit: maybe that's the issue, it isn't about synergy, it's just + Retreat and the power level shifts hard?
Spirits
You want to run Retreat which is a 3 drop and not a powerhouse on it's own. You want to run Knight which is a 3 drop. You're talking Geist? You're talking a lot of 3 drops. A lot of 3 drops is midrange, not aggro. You could build an aggressive Bant deck around that but it wouldn't be a Zoo. If you're just splashing Blue into a Red/Green deck you need to ask yourself why not drop the Knight and run Deceiver Exarch and Splinter Twin as well.
I agree, retreat by itself isn't strong, I guess the power level just isn't what I am used to in either 1 drop or Big zoo, so it feels like quite a jump from a more fair/casual whatever you want to call it to a potential teir one list that can very much pull a win off a top deck. Which is fine, just not the same power level at all that it was before.
Spirits
Did you see the deck I posted? I feel that's a pretty competitive deck as it is minus the Retreats. You could run that deck, taking the four copies of Retreat out and putting something else in and it would still be a very competitive deck.
As for KnightFall's place in the meta... there are obviously going to be a lot of debates about how to utilize this combo right. What makes it good. What makes it bad. I feel like making Retreat useful outside of the combo will be a big part of optimizing it.
Sidenote - my main deck is a rogue thing of my own creation. It's Aether Vial / Tidehollow Sculler / Meddling Mage at the core. It's an aggro Esper deck with a really fast clock. It's very unassuming at first until you see the kind of bull***** I can pull with it.
I think I've seen idSurge in the Zoo thread; the typical Retreat Zoo list is Naya Splash Blue. It's Medium Zoo that's relatively similar to current Naya Collected Company Zoo builds.
The decks we should have access to in the gauntlet are GR Tron, U Tron, Affinity, Jund, Grixis Control, Grixis Delver, all 3 Twin variants, UW control, Naya Chord, boggles and merfolk. These arnt going to be in all one night, so ill try to write mini reports on the match-ups as we get through them, so it could take a week or so (or longer haha) but hopefully it ends up being helpful.
Yeah it very easily just slots in to my big zoo (or even just a rush zoo its not hard), and changes up the dynamic. Its not a terrible thing, its just a change to how the deck plays and warps it in a way that feels like not so much what I 'signed up for' if that makes sense. :]
Spirits
I have started trying out the Zoo list, and the biggest thing I notices is Bolt is good. Making a bigger red splash in the bant list for Bolt is something to really consider.
I've played Twin alot myself and Splinter Twin on Snapcaster/Clique is pretty neat. Post-board, it even works well on Spellskite. I wouldn't say it's completely dead without Pestermite/Exarch.
As restoration angel and kiki-jiki can attest to, combo pieces that are both strong separately have a lot going for them--that's the main appeal of Knightfall, I think. The difficulty is making Retreat actually good on its own as opposed to "not terrible." In the zoo lists it's just "not terrible," imho.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
That all being said, knightfall feels like it wants to be the much more aggressive cousin of tarmotwin.