If you have a courser out, though, you probably ought to just do it a few times and go on the value plan. Courser with Coralhelm out can provide an insurmountable advantage very quickly on his own.
It's pretty easy to search up 4-5 fetchlands and make your Knight 12/12.
WEll sure... Jund is and always been, a bad matchup for zoo. Saying you won ten games with jund, doesnt suprise me. Its the same as saying "well jund is terrible. Ive won a couple games with delver, and the rest with tron. Probably a bad deck then."
Zoo naturally beats up blue decks. Last gp there were 5 zoos in the top 32, and 2 twin, 1 jund. I wouldn't be quick to dismiss it with a single matchup and about 12 games.
I've play about 50 matches, most different random decks, and I'm certainly at a 75 win %. I'm not screaming the deck is OP because in my videos Ive openly said "I'm a better player than most, Im using a deck people dont exactly understand, and Im a very small sample size.
I only played one match with Jund against the deck but i did go 2-0. Most of my wins came from Junk, about 6 of the games. Path/Decay/IoK really pulled the deck through some tight spots. Plus the SB hate in white gave me 2 Pridemage, SB also has Golgari Charm as a 2 of. So if the deck ever starts doing particularly well i assume Junk would rise.
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Active Modern Decks
U Tron GW Bogles RG Loam UR Blue Breach RBU Grixis Goryo BRU Grixis Delver GBR Jund GBW Junk
I'm not sure if this has been explicitly stated or not but if your combo gets nerfed after thinning your deck of lands, your threat density increases to well over 90% in topdeck mode. I do love seeing 6 options from a resolved coco.
RDS junk and Jund are functionally the same deck when it comes to testing. Im glad people are testing this but calling adondon ship the deck only wins 15% (when you only tested against BGx) is a little premature and the lists are FAR from anywhere close to being finished. Lets give it some more time to let people experiment
This is a fun deck but i feel like when playing a deck that has the ability to just "Oops i win." i would rather stick to Twin or Company. This deck is decent, its fun, but its also Bant, requires Goyfs (not a problem for all), and is relying on the combo in order to win. I am currently 12-2 against this deck and the only way it has ever beaten me was with the combo plan. I think if it was built with that in mind this would be much more powerful.
Remember that this deck is only 1 week old and not even legal yet. There are currently hundreds of lists floating around and no one person can say that they have "solved" it. Because of this, I wouldn't be exactly be gloating about your record against it as few decks have been perfect the first time off.. just look at Amulet Bloom and Lantern Control.
Aside from that, is there anything we want specifically in the primer? I am taking the shell of the Abzan Company one and re-doing all of the content in it to better align to this deck. I really can't give solid advice on cards and stuff right now because realistically no one has payed the deck. Once I get it up, hopefully after the weekend, It'll mostly still be the framework but at least have some content and lists for people to look at. Gotta wait for it to drop on MTGO...
I have this deck proxied in paper (I have a 4 color zoo deck already and I just proxied the coralhelms) and against jund/junk you just side out the combo and go down the collected company value beat down plan. That's why I love Voice of Resurgence in this deck over tarmogoyf. Unless they're junk and they have the path they're 2 for 1ing it every time. I've played about 10ish matches with a jund player at my LGS and I'm at about 7 match wins to his 3. When he has to start trading whole cards for half of your voices it feels bad and Geist of Saint Traft is my best card against him. a hexproof threat he just can't deal with is golden in the match up. I also love a 1 of Grim Lavamancer for general use. This deck goes a little light on removal and burn so having a repeatable source that you can company out is great.
It doesn't rely on the combo at all to win though, it's incidental more than anything else. We simply can't rely on the combo to win against a deck that has so many main deck answers to it.
Hey guys long time lurker but I love this deck. What do we do against deflecting palm when we trample through with a 20+/20+ knight and have it all redirected at our face?
Hey guys long time lurker but I love this deck. What do we do against deflecting palm when we trample through with a 20+/20+ knight and have it all redirected at our face?
Who plays deflecting palm where we're going to build a big Knight and swing? When I beat Burn it's with Geist of St. Traft or Kitchen Finks out of the board, or Courser+Voice beatdown.
(that said, dromoka's command is kind of a blowout vs. qp haha
Hey guys long time lurker but I love this deck. What do we do against deflecting palm when we trample through with a 20+/20+ knight and have it all redirected at our face?
Offer your hand and accept the loss with grace. You just got beat by a card that no one anywhere plays.
Or play the Negate/Stubborn Denial strategy people have been mentioning. I like the former, though, people need to learn how to lose with grace.
Loving the Exalted beat down plan with geist/voice/rhox war monk
Affinity MU - Played 4 matches and won them all (2-0, 2-1, 2-0, 2-0). 4 x Qasali Pridemage is amazing and post board is just devastating.
Burn MU - Played 3 matches (1-2, 2-1, 2-0). Felt very reliant on getting my rhox war monks turn 2 as I was taking so much damage from my manabase. Searing blood wrecks face against our dorks T_T.
Jund - Played 3 matches (2-0, 0-2, 2-1). I'd say it's quite even but slightly in their favour. If they drop a bob and start drawing into answers, it is very hard to come back. Geist is an allstar (loxodon + voice too).
Grixis Twin - Played 2 matches (0-2, 1-2). Even though I lost both games, I feel as though they were just unlucky (I had to mull twice and never got a dork opener in any of the games). They only combo'd off twice and Qasali Pridemage is a great answer to twin. The game I won, I actually drew into 3 geists and just 4/4 bashed into his tasigur 3 times haha.
Grixis Control - Played 2 matches (2-1, 1-2). Similar to twin but I would say easier due to voice + loxodon eating up kolaghan's command.
Overall, I maybe combo'd 20% of the time and I would like to test against Tron but the deck is being lent out atm T_T.
Would I take this over Abzan Company? Not sure, Abzan company feels more consistent in comboing while having threat but can durdle around so much. Knightfall's biggest durdle would be drawing lots of exalted but even that's not durdling cause you can smash face with a 5/5 (eg. 1 qasali, 2 nobles) into their 4/5 goyf.
Coco with midrange value creatures
Coco with aggro creatures
Chord with bigger top end (e.g. Sun titan)
I'm going with a more midrange approach, but without CoCo, and my top end is staying at 4cms. Instead of going with blue as a splash for Retreat, I'm using it to have a mix of strong creatures with Snapcaster, Path, and counterspell support. Dropping a few aggressive creatures such as GoST and using counters to slow down their answers is a very solid game plan, which also allows you to interact with other combo decks or to protect your own combo. Even with the combo available, the aggro version loses if you go long against most decks, because the combo is quite easy to interrupt. For the midranged versions, you can either go the CoCo route or run counters (obviously can't run both). The midrange version (especially with Chord) also has access to some extremely strong sideboard options such as Kataki, War's Wage; Meddling Mage; Ethersworn Canonist; Auriok Champion; and Kira, Great Glass Spinner (not that the aggro version can't use those, but they aren't nearly as effective there).
So, this is just a draft, but it was able to take down Twin (by just putting big fat beats down while countering the relevant stuff). Goyf and Stubborn Denial are nuts together. Reality shift is kind of a placeholer, but we need some removal - might be OK as vapor snag or repeal actually.
2) your level of interaction for problem critters (6 pieces, one of which is a dude who can get bolted before they go off) is low. Need 3-4 paths I think just no way around it.
I definitely enjoy the straight bant variant a lot more!
Adding: I might just be high or something, but I keep thinking about Harbinger of the Tides. He has flash natively, he's sick cast as a tempo play on turn 2-3, and he can be hit off of coco for instant speed bounce as a last resort. Having some answers to Twin-type decks that are dudes that can come into play at instant speed is potentially worth it.
2) your level of interaction for problem critters (6 pieces, one of which is a dude who can get bolted before they go off) is low. Need 3-4 paths I think just no way around it.
I definitely enjoy the straight bant variant a lot more!
Adding: I might just be high or something, but I keep thinking about Harbinger of the Tides. He has flash natively, he's sick cast as a tempo play on turn 2-3, and he can be hit off of coco for instant speed bounce as a last resort. Having some answers to Twin-type decks that are dudes that can come into play at instant speed is potentially worth it.
1) 22 is what most abzan company decks that curve off at 4 run and they only run 4 birds. Average CMC is very comparable (2.45 vs 2.55).
2) Which problem critters do you see? I can only really think of Bob. Not worried about opposing fatties like Goyf's/Gurmags cause you just hit them back harder. If they are stalling for blockers then that's what exalted is for.
Not to be hating on your entire post but I highly disagree with Harbinger of Tides. A 4 mana interaction answer to twin (be it unreliably with CoCo or flashing in directing with 2UU) is not going to work especially when you consider they can just tap a land down or if you're at the stage to have 4 open mana, they probably have a remand/dispel ready as well.
22 lands is fine as long as you have 6 manadorks. The problem is that there are 15 3-drops and without a dork turn 2 (54% chance of one in the opener) and no disruption, you are going to have a pretty clunky hand. Move the Rhox War Monk to the side, cut a Geist of Saint Traft since you only want 2 with Collected Company, and add in some Path to Exiles since there is 0 disruption in the deck right now.
I have dromoka's command and I disagree with running disruption for the sole purpose of disruption, especially game 1 in a linear deck.
It's the main reason I don't run mainboard paths in elves company or abrupt decays in abzan company. IMO, If your deck is linear, the only cards you should have game 1 are cards that work towards the goal or cards that protect the goal (eg. collected company/chord for abzan company and force of will for ad nauseum).
Running disruption for the sake of it will dilute your focused gameplan unless you can attack from numerous angles like BGx decks.
Having said that, if you feel disruption is necessary to promote your gameplan then you should be thinking what are you exactly disrupting vs which decks and how relevant (and prevalent) are those threats.
I can't think of a good reason to run path vs a majority of decks when our gameplan is to beatdown or incidental combo (unless it's a bob like I mentioned previously). I don't care nearly enough about random bgx creatures like olivia, scooze, huntmaster, etc or grixis gurmags or any other stupid beater.
Please feel free to disagree but explain it logically.
(On a side note, I agree with Rhox moving to board but I do not know of a more efficient beater - I was actually considering Knight of Glory)
It's pretty easy to search up 4-5 fetchlands and make your Knight 12/12.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I only played one match with Jund against the deck but i did go 2-0. Most of my wins came from Junk, about 6 of the games. Path/Decay/IoK really pulled the deck through some tight spots. Plus the SB hate in white gave me 2 Pridemage, SB also has Golgari Charm as a 2 of. So if the deck ever starts doing particularly well i assume Junk would rise.
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
BR Reanimator
Aside from that, is there anything we want specifically in the primer? I am taking the shell of the Abzan Company one and re-doing all of the content in it to better align to this deck. I really can't give solid advice on cards and stuff right now because realistically no one has payed the deck. Once I get it up, hopefully after the weekend, It'll mostly still be the framework but at least have some content and lists for people to look at. Gotta wait for it to drop on MTGO...
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
Coco with midrange value creatures
Coco with aggro creatures
Chord with bigger top end (e.g. Sun titan)
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
~Modern~
BGURWhiteless Death's ShadowRUGB
GWRUSaheeli BlinkURWG
RGBUGood Ole' DredgeUBGR
~Commander~
URWNarset, Enlightened Time-TravelerWRU
UBRWBreya, Etherium ArchitectWRBU
A Prolific Loser To Blood Moon
~Modern~
BGURWhiteless Death's ShadowRUGB
GWRUSaheeli BlinkURWG
RGBUGood Ole' DredgeUBGR
~Commander~
URWNarset, Enlightened Time-TravelerWRU
UBRWBreya, Etherium ArchitectWRBU
A Prolific Loser To Blood Moon
Who plays deflecting palm where we're going to build a big Knight and swing? When I beat Burn it's with Geist of St. Traft or Kitchen Finks out of the board, or Courser+Voice beatdown.
(that said, dromoka's command is kind of a blowout vs. qp haha
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Offer your hand and accept the loss with grace. You just got beat by a card that no one anywhere plays.
Or play the Negate/Stubborn Denial strategy people have been mentioning. I like the former, though, people need to learn how to lose with grace.
I've been bouncing between the 4c zoo version and the exalted bant version and I'm leaning towards the latter.
This is where my decklist is at:
3x Breeding Pool
1x Eiganjo Castle
4x Flooded Strand
1x Forest
1x Hallowed Fountain
3x Misty Rainforest
1x Sejiri Steppe
4x Temple Garden
4x Windswept Heath
Creature (29)
2x Birds of Paradise
4x Geist of Saint Traft
4x Knight of the Reliquary
3x Loxodon Smiter
4x Noble Hierarch
4x Qasali Pridemage
4x Rhox War Monk
4x Voice of Resurgence
4x Collected Company
2x Dromoka's Command
Enchantment (3)
3x Retreat to Coralhelm
3x Beast Within
2x Burrenton Forge-Tender
1x Creeping Corrosion
2x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Engineered Explosives
2x Spellskite
2x Stony Silence
2x Ulvenwald Tracker
Notes:
Sideboard is still WIP.
Loving the Exalted beat down plan with geist/voice/rhox war monk
Affinity MU - Played 4 matches and won them all (2-0, 2-1, 2-0, 2-0). 4 x Qasali Pridemage is amazing and post board is just devastating.
Burn MU - Played 3 matches (1-2, 2-1, 2-0). Felt very reliant on getting my rhox war monks turn 2 as I was taking so much damage from my manabase. Searing blood wrecks face against our dorks T_T.
Jund - Played 3 matches (2-0, 0-2, 2-1). I'd say it's quite even but slightly in their favour. If they drop a bob and start drawing into answers, it is very hard to come back. Geist is an allstar (loxodon + voice too).
Grixis Twin - Played 2 matches (0-2, 1-2). Even though I lost both games, I feel as though they were just unlucky (I had to mull twice and never got a dork opener in any of the games). They only combo'd off twice and Qasali Pridemage is a great answer to twin. The game I won, I actually drew into 3 geists and just 4/4 bashed into his tasigur 3 times haha.
Grixis Control - Played 2 matches (2-1, 1-2). Similar to twin but I would say easier due to voice + loxodon eating up kolaghan's command.
Overall, I maybe combo'd 20% of the time and I would like to test against Tron but the deck is being lent out atm T_T.
Would I take this over Abzan Company? Not sure, Abzan company feels more consistent in comboing while having threat but can durdle around so much. Knightfall's biggest durdle would be drawing lots of exalted but even that's not durdling cause you can smash face with a 5/5 (eg. 1 qasali, 2 nobles) into their 4/5 goyf.
I'm going with a more midrange approach, but without CoCo, and my top end is staying at 4cms. Instead of going with blue as a splash for Retreat, I'm using it to have a mix of strong creatures with Snapcaster, Path, and counterspell support. Dropping a few aggressive creatures such as GoST and using counters to slow down their answers is a very solid game plan, which also allows you to interact with other combo decks or to protect your own combo. Even with the combo available, the aggro version loses if you go long against most decks, because the combo is quite easy to interrupt. For the midranged versions, you can either go the CoCo route or run counters (obviously can't run both). The midrange version (especially with Chord) also has access to some extremely strong sideboard options such as Kataki, War's Wage; Meddling Mage; Ethersworn Canonist; Auriok Champion; and Kira, Great Glass Spinner (not that the aggro version can't use those, but they aren't nearly as effective there).
2 Breeding Pool
1 Canopy Vista
4 Flooded Strand
3 Forest
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Prairie Stream
1 Rogue's Passage
1 Sejiri Steppe
3 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
2 Wooded Foothills
Dudes
2 Birds of Paradise
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Path to Exile
2 Reality Shift
Combo
3 Retreat to Coralhelm
Cards
4 Serum Visions
3 Stubborn Denial
1 Dispel
2 Eidolon of Rhetoric
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Ghostly Prison
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Negate
3 Stony Silence
The whole thing is a mess but I think the concept is sound--basically playing slightly worse splinter twin with two sets of huge undercosted beaters.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I like where you're going here but I think:
1) your land count is a little low
2) your level of interaction for problem critters (6 pieces, one of which is a dude who can get bolted before they go off) is low. Need 3-4 paths I think just no way around it.
I definitely enjoy the straight bant variant a lot more!
Adding: I might just be high or something, but I keep thinking about Harbinger of the Tides. He has flash natively, he's sick cast as a tempo play on turn 2-3, and he can be hit off of coco for instant speed bounce as a last resort. Having some answers to Twin-type decks that are dudes that can come into play at instant speed is potentially worth it.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
1) 22 is what most abzan company decks that curve off at 4 run and they only run 4 birds. Average CMC is very comparable (2.45 vs 2.55).
2) Which problem critters do you see? I can only really think of Bob. Not worried about opposing fatties like Goyf's/Gurmags cause you just hit them back harder. If they are stalling for blockers then that's what exalted is for.
Not to be hating on your entire post but I highly disagree with Harbinger of Tides. A 4 mana interaction answer to twin (be it unreliably with CoCo or flashing in directing with 2UU) is not going to work especially when you consider they can just tap a land down or if you're at the stage to have 4 open mana, they probably have a remand/dispel ready as well.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
It's the main reason I don't run mainboard paths in elves company or abrupt decays in abzan company. IMO, If your deck is linear, the only cards you should have game 1 are cards that work towards the goal or cards that protect the goal (eg. collected company/chord for abzan company and force of will for ad nauseum).
Running disruption for the sake of it will dilute your focused gameplan unless you can attack from numerous angles like BGx decks.
Having said that, if you feel disruption is necessary to promote your gameplan then you should be thinking what are you exactly disrupting vs which decks and how relevant (and prevalent) are those threats.
I can't think of a good reason to run path vs a majority of decks when our gameplan is to beatdown or incidental combo (unless it's a bob like I mentioned previously). I don't care nearly enough about random bgx creatures like olivia, scooze, huntmaster, etc or grixis gurmags or any other stupid beater.
Please feel free to disagree but explain it logically.
(On a side note, I agree with Rhox moving to board but I do not know of a more efficient beater - I was actually considering Knight of Glory)