I've thought about it but haven't gotten around to it. I feel like landing a turn one dork is too integral to the deck but it'd also be nice to not have to rely on three drops to have bodies that are relevant.
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Modern: GW GW Hatebears |GWB Counters Company | GWU Bant Knightfall GW Value Town
Legacy: GWB Maverick
EDH: GWR Mayael | Rhys | Sisay | Ezuri | Titania
GWIf it doesn't have a toolbox I don't want anything to do with itGW
Probably my favorite thing about this configuration is I've been able to consistently win through the combo by quite a larger margin than with CoCo or Jace being the curve topper. I've probably had more turn three or four wins the last couple days than I've had the previous month--Dork into Knight into BBE cascading into Retreat is very much real. It's faster, more proactive, and more consistent with the combo which I feel is a better place to be in the meta. Knightfall is a deck that likes to fight on the ground and have high-value cards, BBE is imo a better enabler. Also, Lightning Bolt is a good card.
Probably my favorite thing about this configuration is I've been able to consistently win through the combo by quite a larger margin than with CoCo or Jace being the curve topper. I've probably had more turn three or four wins the last couple days than I've had the previous month--Dork into Knight into BBE cascading into Retreat is very much real. It's faster, more proactive, and more consistent with the combo which I feel is a better place to be in the meta. Knightfall is a deck that likes to fight on the ground and have high-value cards, BBE is imo a better enabler. Also, Lightning Bolt is a good card.
I like this a lot.
Looks realy good! I was trying to play Jace but I can't get a decend build. Nondeless I would like to see some Geists in this list.
I think the board needs some work. I dislike Choke, Linvala and Sigarda.
What creature selection would you make with this kind of meta? I'm thinking Reflector Mage does little here, whereas cards like Spell Queller and Selfless Spirit are more valuable? Utility creatures I'm considering are 2nd Qasali Pridemage and more Ewits for recursion.
I've always been a fan of 2-3 Pridemages. It can be really clutch maindeck against a lot of decks right now, and also helps with beating down from exalted. Having a Noble and a Qasali out together for double exalted can be a game changer with getting a creature through or speeding up your clock against decks that can stop you from going wide but can't take out your whole board (lots of spot removal, but not a lot of sweepers like BGx etc), especially if you have a couple lantern and affinity players around often for the incidental artifact hate.
You might want to consider some/more Kitchen Finks and Voice of Resurgence in that metagame too if you don't play them already. Both are great against removal heavy decks, and most aggro decks (they take 2 removal spells to really eliminate (other than path) and can block/trade twice most of the time against aggro.
E-Wit is definitely great in grindy matchups like BGx and UW.
Queller is generally strong, with its worst matchups being against decks like Jeskai that have so many extra ways to take it out, though at the same time, a well used queller in that matchup can really turn things around for you, like hitting a 4CMC walker or wrath/verdict (remember it doesnt counter spells it exiles, so supreme verdict and abrupt decay can be hit). I'd probably run them in any metagame due to versatility and general strength.
I've never been a huge fan of selfless spirit. It's not a bad card, but find it's usually less valuable in a proactive gameplan, and it's not too hard to play around it (other than hitting it off CoCo in response to something, but that is pretty unlikely) I'd rather just play more efficient creatures that can have higher game impact.
Reflector Mage has a lot of value in midrange matchups, where removing a blocker while on the tempo beatdown plan can make a big difference in getting through a stalled board, and aggro matches where it can profitably block a lot of creatures and also slow them down. Especially worthwhile against Deaths Shadow, anything else that plays Delve creatures, Hollow Ones etc.
Geist of Saint Traft on the other hand, I find has value in the opposite matchups from Reflector Mage. Great vs creature light decks like Control and Combo decks like Storm or Ad Nauseam as a fast clock to back up some tempo plays/disruption. Usually I prefer to have 2-3 copies of either Geist or Reflector in my maindeck with the other available out of the sideboard, since I rarely want both at once.
2 JTMS in the maindeck, with 0 Retreat, plus 1 JTMS in the sideboard. The list is very cool. Also have 4 Collected Company maindeck, but in this article he was in the 4 JTMS and 0 Company build. Maybe company still good!
I dislike the effect of 0 retreats.
You see his list is focust on fast three drops or a t3 Jace. Protected by voices and co.
I want to test if BBE is better as Coco in the meta. The list above is realy good.
I'm relatively new to the deck, hope you don't mind me asking for advice (or tell me and I'll delete this post!).
The meta that I play in have an overwhelming degree of interactive decks with a stint of aggro and combo.
Something to the effect of
50% Jund / UWx control
20% Lantern (2-3 players)
30% Aggro / Combo (Affinity, burn and storm)
What creature selection would you make with this kind of meta? I'm thinking Reflector Mage does little here, whereas cards like Spell Queller and Selfless Spirit are more valuable? Utility creatures I'm considering are 2nd Qasali Pridemage and more Ewits for recursion.
I think the basic creatures you see in most lists are going to be correct here. 2 Pridemage, 2 GoST has been serving me pretty good, and I have 2 Selfless Spirits right now as well.
As to the MTGO list, I think BBE is going to prove to be a better value engine, if not going for Combo, it seems in my testing against it (I havent tried it) to just bury people.
I'm relatively new to the deck, hope you don't mind me asking for advice (or tell me and I'll delete this post!).
The meta that I play in have an overwhelming degree of interactive decks with a stint of aggro and combo.
Something to the effect of
50% Jund / UWx control
20% Lantern (2-3 players)
30% Aggro / Combo (Affinity, burn and storm)
What creature selection would you make with this kind of meta? I'm thinking Reflector Mage does little here, whereas cards like Spell Queller and Selfless Spirit are more valuable? Utility creatures I'm considering are 2nd Qasali Pridemage and more Ewits for recursion.
I think the basic creatures you see in most lists are going to be correct here. 2 Pridemage, 2 GoST has been serving me pretty good, and I have 2 Selfless Spirits right now as well.
As to the MTGO list, I think BBE is going to prove to be a better value engine, if not going for Combo, it seems in my testing against it (I havent tried it) to just bury people.
In what list would you play the BBE version?
The list above lacks GoST and Quellers.
I think the list last page with BBE is on the right track, probably because it closely mirrors what Ive seen online out of the RUG decks.
Personally Quellers are a love/hate thing. Great when you are ahead, but they just make me sad when I'm trying to come from behind. GoST on the other hand, can be a beast at any point, especially with 4-6 Exalted boosters in the deck. I beat Tron last night on the back of game 1 Turn 2 GoST, and game 2, turn 3 Combo.
Near god hands sure, but you need to have cards to apply that pressure, and BBE on top? The value and pressure can get out of hand very fast.
Probably my favorite thing about this configuration is I've been able to consistently win through the combo by quite a larger margin than with CoCo or Jace being the curve topper. I've probably had more turn three or four wins the last couple days than I've had the previous month--Dork into Knight into BBE cascading into Retreat is very much real. It's faster, more proactive, and more consistent with the combo which I feel is a better place to be in the meta. Knightfall is a deck that likes to fight on the ground and have high-value cards, BBE is imo a better enabler. Also, Lightning Bolt is a good card.
This deck looks really sweet. One thing I might suggest trying is cutting out a lot of the value cards like Courser and Voice, and play more aggro cards like Goyf and maybe Lightning Helix. BBE is much more effective when your deck is pressuring the opponent. I think tireless tracker is still solid as he gets big and lets you grind. And like people suggested, Geist is very good at pressuring as well. And Geist/Retreat has some synergy together too (fetchland taps down 2 blockers). I might try this on mtgo soon.
Since I've been getting hyped on the new possibilities of this deck I also drew up a BBE version to build. I haven't tested this one yet, but might play it instead of my Jace version at a modern event this week. This is what I was thinking for a BBE build. Trimming Quellers since they are not a good hit on a BBE. I think this deck could really push the beatdown/tempo plan well. Realistically, this might just be better off as a non Retreat deck that is fully Naya, but still this looks pretty fun.
Since I've been getting hyped on the new possibilities of this deck I also drew up a BBE version to build. I haven't tested this one yet, but might play it instead of my Jace version at a modern event this week. This is what I was thinking for a BBE build. Trimming Quellers since they are not a good hit on a BBE. I think this deck could really push the beatdown/tempo plan well. Realistically, this might just be better off as a non Retreat deck that is fully Naya, but still this looks pretty fun.
How does mana feel in the BBE decks? I know we've always been 4-color, but the Red for just a Kessig and a sideboard card or two feels different than BBE + Bolt + Retreat (+ maybe Queller/GoST). Especially since at best half of our dorks can make Red.
I know 4-C is totally doable in Modern, especially with fixers. Just want to know how it's working for everyone. BBE into GoST does seem like a good time.
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Playing UX Mana Denial until Modern gets the answers it needs.
WUBRG Humans BRW Mardu Pyromancer UW UW "Control" UR Blue Moon
I havent put it together online yet to really test it, but I have to imagine you are taking a bit more shock damage, as I dont really want a Basic Mountain in the list, but if you did go BBE, I think you would limit Blue to a lot less than I have in my current list.
Feels pretty good, but I would probably drop 2 Jace, 2 Vapor Snag, 3 Queller, and 2 Selfless Spirit, and go +4 BBE +4 Bolt + 1 Tracker. Sideboard would get messed around too, removing the Blue interaction for White hate, and some Helix's. Or something.
Mana base, I would likely drop a Forest and a Plains, and then add 1 Stomping Ground, and 1 Sacred Foundry.
Fetches would drop 2 Flooded, for 2 Arid Mesa? Yeah something like that. :]
How does mana feel in the BBE decks? I know we've always been 4-color, but the Red for just a Kessig and a sideboard card or two feels different than BBE + Bolt + Retreat (+ maybe Queller/GoST). Especially since at best half of our dorks can make Red.
I know 4-C is totally doable in Modern, especially with fixers. Just want to know how it's working for everyone. BBE into GoST does seem like a good time.
Can't complain, mana hasn't been really a noticeable issue for me. Since I run Retreat as my only blue card, dorks and Knight make it so that I don't have much of an issue with color screw and don't need to fetch -> untap shock that aggressively. 3x Courser also is a big help with keeping a healthy life total.
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Modern: GW GW Hatebears |GWB Counters Company | GWU Bant Knightfall GW Value Town
Legacy: GWB Maverick
EDH: GWR Mayael | Rhys | Sisay | Ezuri | Titania
GWIf it doesn't have a toolbox I don't want anything to do with itGW
I havent put it together online yet to really test it, but I have to imagine you are taking a bit more shock damage, as I dont really want a Basic Mountain in the list, but if you did go BBE, I think you would limit Blue to a lot less than I have in my current list.
Feels pretty good, but I would probably drop 2 Jace, 2 Vapor Snag, 3 Queller, and 2 Selfless Spirit, and go +4 BBE +4 Bolt + 1 Tracker. Sideboard would get messed around too, removing the Blue interaction for White hate, and some Helix's. Or something.
Mana base, I would likely drop a Forest and a Plains, and then add 1 Stomping Ground, and 1 Sacred Foundry.
Fetches would drop 2 Flooded, for 2 Arid Mesa? Yeah something like that. :]
I think there will be a difference between 4C Naya with Retreat and Aggro decks. My guess is that the BBE versions realy resilliant is. But this claim is without any testing. I find it hard to lock on to one of the lists and go jam them on MTGO tho
How do you guys compare Nissa, Steward of Elements to Jace, the Mind Sculptor? I feel like Nissa does the same things but better in our deck. Bant Company is often starved for mana, even with dorks, and I've found Nissa cheats out creatures a lot better. She comes down as early as turn 2 with a dork. She has amazing synergy with Courser of Kruphix, and because of her ult, drawing a second copy later on is useful. The one thing I really like about Jace is his bounce ability.
Before the unbans I played 3 Retreats. It depends on the meta, if there are few interactive decks you should increase the odds of comboing. In the other hand if the matchups are grindy drawing a retreat without a Knight on the board is really painful. Now I`m testing with 2.
I will echo Trasno here and say that the slots are less about "utility creatures" and more about mana curve. 7-8 Dorks. 7-9 2-drops (Scooze, Qasali Pridemage, VoR, Selfless Spirit, occasionally JVP), then 12-14 3-drops. The 'always include' 3-drops being 4 KotR and 4 Queller, and then normally 2 Courser and 2 Tracker, and then some flex spots like eternal witness, Geist of Saint Traft, or Vendilion Clique(looking to make a comeback now). Then you have your 4 CoCo and 4 Path, and usually 0-3 Retreats. I like having 2, but many lists have 1. I have a friend who cut 4th path for a 3rd retreat, and he pushes the combo a lot. He also runs Geist though, so the retreat can come down with a fetchland and tap down a blocker or two.
In general, the land/mana dork split is usually 8 dorks/22 lands or 7 dorks/23 lands. If you're up against a lot of jund and control, I like the 7/23. If you're up against more "ignore what opponent is doing" decks, I like 8/22.
Speaking of proactive, have you tried Wild Nacatl?
GW GW Hatebears |GWB Counters Company | GWU Bant Knightfall GW Value Town
Legacy:
GWB Maverick
EDH:
GWR Mayael | Rhys | Sisay | Ezuri | Titania
GWIf it doesn't have a toolbox I don't want anything to do with itGW
I like this a lot.
Spirits
Looks realy good! I was trying to play Jace but I can't get a decend build. Nondeless I would like to see some Geists in this list.
I think the board needs some work. I dislike Choke, Linvala and Sigarda.
I've always been a fan of 2-3 Pridemages. It can be really clutch maindeck against a lot of decks right now, and also helps with beating down from exalted. Having a Noble and a Qasali out together for double exalted can be a game changer with getting a creature through or speeding up your clock against decks that can stop you from going wide but can't take out your whole board (lots of spot removal, but not a lot of sweepers like BGx etc), especially if you have a couple lantern and affinity players around often for the incidental artifact hate.
You might want to consider some/more Kitchen Finks and Voice of Resurgence in that metagame too if you don't play them already. Both are great against removal heavy decks, and most aggro decks (they take 2 removal spells to really eliminate (other than path) and can block/trade twice most of the time against aggro.
E-Wit is definitely great in grindy matchups like BGx and UW.
Queller is generally strong, with its worst matchups being against decks like Jeskai that have so many extra ways to take it out, though at the same time, a well used queller in that matchup can really turn things around for you, like hitting a 4CMC walker or wrath/verdict (remember it doesnt counter spells it exiles, so supreme verdict and abrupt decay can be hit). I'd probably run them in any metagame due to versatility and general strength.
I've never been a huge fan of selfless spirit. It's not a bad card, but find it's usually less valuable in a proactive gameplan, and it's not too hard to play around it (other than hitting it off CoCo in response to something, but that is pretty unlikely) I'd rather just play more efficient creatures that can have higher game impact.
Reflector Mage has a lot of value in midrange matchups, where removing a blocker while on the tempo beatdown plan can make a big difference in getting through a stalled board, and aggro matches where it can profitably block a lot of creatures and also slow them down. Especially worthwhile against Deaths Shadow, anything else that plays Delve creatures, Hollow Ones etc.
Geist of Saint Traft on the other hand, I find has value in the opposite matchups from Reflector Mage. Great vs creature light decks like Control and Combo decks like Storm or Ad Nauseam as a fast clock to back up some tempo plays/disruption. Usually I prefer to have 2-3 copies of either Geist or Reflector in my maindeck with the other available out of the sideboard, since I rarely want both at once.
I've been a fan of creature spreads such as:
6-7 Dorks
6-7 2 CMC (Usually 3-4 Voice, 2-3 Qasali, 0-2 Scooze)
13-15 3 CMC (4 Knight, 4 Queller, 5-7 "Flex" based on metagame)
Modern : RGTitanshiftGR / UGWKnightfallWGU
I dislike the effect of 0 retreats.
You see his list is focust on fast three drops or a t3 Jace. Protected by voices and co.
I want to test if BBE is better as Coco in the meta. The list above is realy good.
I think the basic creatures you see in most lists are going to be correct here. 2 Pridemage, 2 GoST has been serving me pretty good, and I have 2 Selfless Spirits right now as well.
As to the MTGO list, I think BBE is going to prove to be a better value engine, if not going for Combo, it seems in my testing against it (I havent tried it) to just bury people.
Spirits
In what list would you play the BBE version?
The list above lacks GoST and Quellers.
Personally Quellers are a love/hate thing. Great when you are ahead, but they just make me sad when I'm trying to come from behind. GoST on the other hand, can be a beast at any point, especially with 4-6 Exalted boosters in the deck. I beat Tron last night on the back of game 1 Turn 2 GoST, and game 2, turn 3 Combo.
Near god hands sure, but you need to have cards to apply that pressure, and BBE on top? The value and pressure can get out of hand very fast.
Spirits
This deck looks really sweet. One thing I might suggest trying is cutting out a lot of the value cards like Courser and Voice, and play more aggro cards like Goyf and maybe Lightning Helix. BBE is much more effective when your deck is pressuring the opponent. I think tireless tracker is still solid as he gets big and lets you grind. And like people suggested, Geist is very good at pressuring as well. And Geist/Retreat has some synergy together too (fetchland taps down 2 blockers). I might try this on mtgo soon.
2 Birds of Paradise
3 Voice of Resurgence
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Kitchen Finks
2 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Tireless Tracker
4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Path to Exile
2 Retreat to Coralhelm
4 Windswept Heath
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Wooded Foothills
2 Temple Garden
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Stomping Ground
1 Sacred Foundry
3 Forest
1 Plains
2 Field of Ruin
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Gavony Township
1 Horizon Canopy
Modern : RGTitanshiftGR / UGWKnightfallWGU
Spicy finkses. I think we need at least the 7 mana dorks to support the GR and WU BBE and GoST spells.
Manabase seems fine tho.
I think the Retreat stays. The possibility of t3 out of the blue is great. And it wins you some random matches tho.
I know 4-C is totally doable in Modern, especially with fixers. Just want to know how it's working for everyone. BBE into GoST does seem like a good time.
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
Feels pretty good, but I would probably drop 2 Jace, 2 Vapor Snag, 3 Queller, and 2 Selfless Spirit, and go +4 BBE +4 Bolt + 1 Tracker. Sideboard would get messed around too, removing the Blue interaction for White hate, and some Helix's. Or something.
Mana base, I would likely drop a Forest and a Plains, and then add 1 Stomping Ground, and 1 Sacred Foundry.
Fetches would drop 2 Flooded, for 2 Arid Mesa? Yeah something like that. :]
My current.
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
1 Breeding Pool
3 Forest
2 Plains
1 Island
1 Kessig Wolf Run
1 Hallowed Fountain
3 Temple Garden
4 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Stomping Ground
//Instant 6
4 Path to Exile
2 Vapor Snag
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Birds of Paradise
1 Lotus Cobra
//Creatures 16
2 Selfless Spirit
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Geist of Saint Traft
2 Courser of Kruphix
3 Spell Queller
3 Tireless Tracker
//Combo 6
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Retreat to Coralhelm
//Jace 2
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Detention Sphere
2 Display of Dominance
2 Dispel
1 Spell Queller
2 Reclamation Sage
1 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Eidolon of Rhetoric
3 Unified Will
Spirits
Can't complain, mana hasn't been really a noticeable issue for me. Since I run Retreat as my only blue card, dorks and Knight make it so that I don't have much of an issue with color screw and don't need to fetch -> untap shock that aggressively. 3x Courser also is a big help with keeping a healthy life total.
GW GW Hatebears |GWB Counters Company | GWU Bant Knightfall GW Value Town
Legacy:
GWB Maverick
EDH:
GWR Mayael | Rhys | Sisay | Ezuri | Titania
GWIf it doesn't have a toolbox I don't want anything to do with itGW
I think it is wrong to play Queller without company in the deck.
This deck went 5-0 wint Naya Company
2 Courser of Kruphix
1 Domri Rade
1 Dromoka's Command
3 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Lightning Helix
1 Mountain
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Plains
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Sacred Foundry
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Stomping Ground
1 Tectonic Edge
2 Temple Garden
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Treetop Village
4 Voice of Resurgence
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
3 Grim Lavamancer
1 Lightning Helix
2 Path to Exile
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
I think there will be a difference between 4C Naya with Retreat and Aggro decks. My guess is that the BBE versions realy resilliant is. But this claim is without any testing. I find it hard to lock on to one of the lists and go jam them on MTGO tho
I will echo Trasno here and say that the slots are less about "utility creatures" and more about mana curve. 7-8 Dorks. 7-9 2-drops (Scooze, Qasali Pridemage, VoR, Selfless Spirit, occasionally JVP), then 12-14 3-drops. The 'always include' 3-drops being 4 KotR and 4 Queller, and then normally 2 Courser and 2 Tracker, and then some flex spots like eternal witness, Geist of Saint Traft, or Vendilion Clique(looking to make a comeback now). Then you have your 4 CoCo and 4 Path, and usually 0-3 Retreats. I like having 2, but many lists have 1. I have a friend who cut 4th path for a 3rd retreat, and he pushes the combo a lot. He also runs Geist though, so the retreat can come down with a fetchland and tap down a blocker or two.
In general, the land/mana dork split is usually 8 dorks/22 lands or 7 dorks/23 lands. If you're up against a lot of jund and control, I like the 7/23. If you're up against more "ignore what opponent is doing" decks, I like 8/22.