how is Meddling Mage performing for you all?
I've switched it yesterday for 2 Voice of Resurgence because they had a low-ceiling impact on teh board.
Finally i came to the conclusion, that it's awkward to the manabase (This deck runs just 9 Fetchlands and has 7 lands that doesn't get White or Blue Mana) and it's impact was too low to be really be worth it. Is is good enough for the sideboard or do i just head for other Hatebears?
I'm returning to this deck after taking a few months off of modern (still watching, just not playing) and I wanted to run a few things by you folks to see what you think. I'm running a retret to coralhelmkessig wolf-run version of the deck for the places where that matters. I don't really like the vizier of remedies lists very much.
I've been dissatisfied previously with voice of resurgence as an aggressive 2 drop since none of the deck really interacts with it and it makes rest in peace do more work than shrinking knight, but there just wasn't really a better card I thought. Recently I've been considering fleecemane lion though. I know that 90% of the time that card is just watchwolf, but honestly that seems better than playing grizzly bears and the idea of being able to curve an end of turn CoCo into activating fleecemane next turn seems very strong to me.
I was also thinking of trying one maindeck dromoka's command as a 5th removal spell that has some additional utility. just running that many noncreature spells in my CoCo deck might be enough to keep me off it, but the deck is light on removal and I can see the other modes being worthwhile.
I also had a few ideas about the utility land package to ask about. Field of ruin replacing the ghost quarter is interesting since getting the basic seems nice with knight, but 2 mana activation cost is meh. Is there a consensus on that? the other thing I wanted to try was running inkmoth nexus. I already have noble hierarchs and qasali pridemages for exalted, as well as kessig wolf-run to one shot opponents, which certainly seems like enough to get there to me. I think poison kills would be completely unexpected from this kind of deck and could very much so steal some games.
Finally I was curious why trygon predator doesn't see play. It seems castable, useful, and worth hitting off of CoCo, is it just too slow?
I love Dromoka's Command but I wouldn't MB it. Voice is pretty great tbh, I personally wouldn't cut it.
Light on removal? 4 path and 4 Reflector mage is typically plenty
You might get a surprise win with inkmoth but I think you're better with GQ, Kessig, and Gavony which is already a lot of colorless sources. And you can't really count on always having Exalted triggers and being able to dump into Kessig.
I think GQ is better than Ruin, because you can use it to target yourself while you Combo, or in response to a spreading seas, etc
trygon predator is very much so modern legal, it was printed in dissention originally and is not currently banned. inkmoth would be replacing horizon canopy which I don't own yet. I have a second GQ in the slot right now and im okay running 4 colorless lands.
Oh yeah I see that it is now, sorry. I'm not familiar with the card so I followed the salvation link and didn't see Modern listed in the playable formats. I still think I prefer Pridemage and RecSage because they can do their job whether they untap or not
I still think 4 colorless lands is a stretch, and I would get my hands on a Horizon Canopy asap. It's a super important land to have if you need to stack scry triggers for Artifact/enchantment removal when you combo off (bridge, unlife, etc) or Queller/counter for an opponent holding up removal and hoping to blow you out by letting you go all in before they kill knight
I honestly don't think Storm and Burn are bad at all. Valakut is tough. If you wanna beat them consistently you need to dedicate a lot of sideboard space to them (flashfreeze)
Hi, all. I haven't played in a while, but I'm on regular Bant Knightfall. I like playing crowded-board midgame and late game. I haven't played against the new 5c Humans deck yet, and I was wondering how you guys are finding the matchup. My Bant Knightfall deck already had some trouble against Bant Human Knightfall, so 5c Humans seems faster and scarier.
So I'm looking into picking up the missing pieces for this deck (one version or another), but one of the changes I've noticed from awhile ago is that no one is running Sejiri Steppe anymore. Now I understand that as a land that you put into play and tap for mana it is pretty terrible, but how does its absence affect the deck's ability to combo off against removal heavy decks like Jund or Jeskai or Grixis? Is the plan to just try running them out of removal before going for the combo? Holding up Spell Queller and/or Unified Will? Bolt shouldn't be much of a problem and Push can be played around to a degree by watching their fetchlands, but Path and Terminate just dump all over Knight all day no matter what.
I assume that you who have been playing this deck for awhile are obviously smarter than me and got rid of Steppe for a good reason, I'm just curious about what the deal is.
Hi, I've been lurking for a few days now, thinking about getting into Knightfall, can't wait to get started! Going off of what 3magnum was saying, if I'm running the Vizier version of Knightfall, would Steppe be worth playing to protect my more important combo pieces? Or is it still just too easy to replace them with CoCo or something and win anyway?
Yeah I almost always board out retreat against removal heavy decks, but if you're going for the combo T3 and they have mana open, they're probably going to kill knight with Retreat on the stack. If they don't though, you can use your extra landfall triggers to scry Queller to the top and draw it with canopy
And for the Vizier version you're better off leaning on CoCo, Chord, and E.Wit
It's very win more and the situations where you'd want it are so specific. It is awesome to go "IN RESPONSE!!!" to a removal spell on Knight and they got completely blown out making it a 2 for 1 with a single activation. It might be better to have Sejiri Steppe in the G/W Value Town because that kind of trick is valuable when you can keep Azusa and Ramunap on the board. In this deck however it's to cute and too much time taken away instead of bashing in, getting Gavony or Kessig, drawing off Canopy, blowing up lands, or ramping (hardly enough space to plug in a Sejiri steppe).
my last results with the deck has been pleasent so far.
I've decided to put Thalia, Heretic Cathar to the sideboard (it only enhances my game against decks i need to tempo out) and added the 3rd Scavenging Ooze to the main.
Due to the fact that i'm not super-experienced with the deck, i think i messed up some games because my gameplan was wrong. Here are my thoughts about certain Matchups that i'm not super confident with:
1. Merfolk
This Matchup is tough. Preboard i'm always hesitating about destroying Vial with my Qasali Pridemage because it hurts my more than his. The only exception is, if i see that my opponent is low on lands and relies heavily on having Vial.
The other problem is that i play Islands and after they gummed up the Board i can't do enough to stop the unblocked Merfolks. The Only chance is to combo them out early, because a single Path is not enough to stop him.
I board:
-2 Retreat
-2 Voice
-2 Tracker
-1 Courser
Postboard i try to stem the bleeding with some Lifegain and Reflectoring Lords. The single most best card on there side remains Vial because it let them play 2-3 Creatures per turn.
Staticcaster and Thalia are mediocre at best, but i got no clue what's better to stop there harassment.
2. Infect
This is tough because Bant has only few removal. Like against Merfolk, i board out Value-Creatures and try to outmaneuver them. Staticcaster is much better here, taking care of Noble Hierarch.
I try to interact with there pump-spells (Queller, unified will), but i'm super-shaky for leaving in the Combo. Thoughts on that Matchup?
3. Death and Taxes
This matchup is *****ty. They got easy outs against the Combo and once they start flickering there Dudes it gets difficult to win. I try to handle Vial because it allows them all the dirty tricks and try to assemble huge Knights or Oozes - they only have 4 Path to Exile and can't deal easily with huge creatures.
I try to be the control (and not the beatdown) here and therefore board into more midrange-alike territories. Reflector Mage is not super-great because they can vial there flicker-creatures in after they have been bounced.
spell queller is mediocre here because vialed Creatures cannot be countered. Thalia is here to prevent surprising block-/flicker-shenanigans that would otherwise kill me.
4. Burn
One reason that i've put back the 3rd Ooze is Burn. Preboard it's super-tough because the Blue-Splash does cost me 3 life a lot of times. I want to present a fast clock / stonewall Goblin Guide and try to Company into something relevant. Qasali Pridemage is great against Eidolon, Selfless Spirit prevents that my board gets decimated too fast and both serve as Scavenging Ooze fodder.
Boarding:
-2 voice of resurgence
-2 retreat
-2 tireless tracker
There's an argument for boarding in Unified Will, but i believe that if i'm behind onboard it's a dead card. Qasali Pridemage is debatable, but i had some situations where he chumped Goblin Guide and traded for Eidolon of the Great Revel.
5. Bogles
I'm super-confident that comboing them out is the only way to reliably win. Path to Exile has too few targets, so i aim to interact with them.
Boarding:
-2 Voice
-2 Tracker
-4 Path
+2 Unified Will
+2 Blessed Alliance
+2 Kitchen Finks
+1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
+1 Reflector Mage
The case here is against Gideon, but it at least presents a clock that i'm certainly in need of. The rest ensures that i'm either stay alive (finks, Alliance) or interact with them (Will, Alliance).
The only 2 Creatures that can be handled are Kor Spiritdancer and a single Dryad Arbor, therefore i'm not willing to rely on Reflector Mage or Path.
7. Dredge
This becomes more popular at my local gamestore. I'm confident to win this Matchup because i have a lot of ways to interact with them.
Preboard they can rush out a quick win if i can't interact or stonewall them, but once there Conflagrate was matched by Queller i got game against them. They key in winning this Matchup is to prevent Conflag from dealing huge chunks of damage and stonewalling there creatures.
Prolongueing the game is what makes the game favorable for me. Postboard i try to stem early harassments and then establish a board they cannot overcome. Stinkweed Imp ist nasty because it blocks everybody to death. After i handle there first 2-3 threats and found some manasources Scavenging Ooze becomes the gamebreaker.
Staticcaster, Finks, Alliance and Reflector ensures that i can stabilize and gum up the board quickly. After that it becomes difficult for dredge to come back.
Summary
I hope that you got some ideas for the way i'm thinking and the way i evaluate those matchups. Criticism is welcome. Some Matchups i only face once in a while, others week in week out - part of the reason that i'm pretty confident in some matchups, uncertain in others.
So, I'm back to this deck. I wanted to post my 75 as I'm a little unfocused with my build, I kind of want it all, but wanted to see if you guys had opinions on streamlining or having a better SB plan. I'm always tempted to do weird stuff like play 3x leyline of sanctity in the board to help with burn, valakut, storm, ad naus, etc. but it takes up a lot of real estate and you may never use it during a tournament. Anyways, heres my list: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/07-03-17-Eul-bant-knightfall/
I'm especially curious about the 2 drop suite- as you can see i've got a lot of one of's. As you all know some are good in some situations, and not others. lotus is the most fun but also the worst top deck. I may go up on voice as it's the most decent card on its own I'd say. Jace can be great for drawing cards and recurring our very valuable spells. Anyways, help?
Tracker vs Ewit vs geist and courser. I really liked the card selection from courser, and the life gain is relevant so I'm pretty happy with 2. Tracker can be an all star, and i really like geist to add a clock and obviously Ewit can be amazing. I always love the idea of Clique too. Against an open field, how do you guys feel this can be optimized?
What do you think of Magus of the Moon in the Sideboard?
Legacy: Maverick
Pauper: UB Delver
how is Meddling Mage performing for you all?
I've switched it yesterday for 2 Voice of Resurgence because they had a low-ceiling impact on teh board.
Finally i came to the conclusion, that it's awkward to the manabase (This deck runs just 9 Fetchlands and has 7 lands that doesn't get White or Blue Mana) and it's impact was too low to be really be worth it. Is is good enough for the sideboard or do i just head for other Hatebears?
Green @ it's best
I've been dissatisfied previously with voice of resurgence as an aggressive 2 drop since none of the deck really interacts with it and it makes rest in peace do more work than shrinking knight, but there just wasn't really a better card I thought. Recently I've been considering fleecemane lion though. I know that 90% of the time that card is just watchwolf, but honestly that seems better than playing grizzly bears and the idea of being able to curve an end of turn CoCo into activating fleecemane next turn seems very strong to me.
I was also thinking of trying one maindeck dromoka's command as a 5th removal spell that has some additional utility. just running that many noncreature spells in my CoCo deck might be enough to keep me off it, but the deck is light on removal and I can see the other modes being worthwhile.
I also had a few ideas about the utility land package to ask about. Field of ruin replacing the ghost quarter is interesting since getting the basic seems nice with knight, but 2 mana activation cost is meh. Is there a consensus on that? the other thing I wanted to try was running inkmoth nexus. I already have noble hierarchs and qasali pridemages for exalted, as well as kessig wolf-run to one shot opponents, which certainly seems like enough to get there to me. I think poison kills would be completely unexpected from this kind of deck and could very much so steal some games.
Finally I was curious why trygon predator doesn't see play. It seems castable, useful, and worth hitting off of CoCo, is it just too slow?
Light on removal? 4 path and 4 Reflector mage is typically plenty
You might get a surprise win with inkmoth but I think you're better with GQ, Kessig, and Gavony which is already a lot of colorless sources. And you can't really count on always having Exalted triggers and being able to dump into Kessig.
I think GQ is better than Ruin, because you can use it to target yourself while you Combo, or in response to a spreading seas, etc
Trygon Predator isn't modern legal
I still think 4 colorless lands is a stretch, and I would get my hands on a Horizon Canopy asap. It's a super important land to have if you need to stack scry triggers for Artifact/enchantment removal when you combo off (bridge, unlife, etc) or Queller/counter for an opponent holding up removal and hoping to blow you out by letting you go all in before they kill knight
What do you think of Leyline of Sanctity in SB to improve Storm, Burn and Valakut MU?
What about Shaper’s Sanctuary for Jeskai?
I assume that you who have been playing this deck for awhile are obviously smarter than me and got rid of Steppe for a good reason, I'm just curious about what the deal is.
Whatever I build from my Box-o-EDH stuff
Legacy
Sneak and Show
UR Delver
Scapeshift Nic Fit
Modern
Merfolk
And for the Vizier version you're better off leaning on CoCo, Chord, and E.Wit
my last results with the deck has been pleasent so far.
I've decided to put Thalia, Heretic Cathar to the sideboard (it only enhances my game against decks i need to tempo out) and added the 3rd Scavenging Ooze to the main.
This is what i've settled on for now:
4 misty rainforest
1 flooded strand
1 breeding pool
1 botanical sanctum
1 stomping ground
1 hallowed fountain
1 temple garden
1 ghost quarter
1 kessig wolf run
1 gavony township
1 horizon canopy
3 forest
1 plains
4 birds of paradise
2 voice of resurgence
3 scavenging ooze
2 qasali pridemage
2 selfless spirit
4 knight of the reliquary
4 spell queller
2 tireless tracker
1 courser of kruphix
2 retreat to coralhelm
4 collected company
4 path to exile
3 reflector mage
2 kitchen finks
2 blessed alliance
2 unified will
2 stony silence
1 izzet staticcaster
1 eidolon of rhetoric
1 gideon, ally of zendikar
1 thalia, heretic cathar
Due to the fact that i'm not super-experienced with the deck, i think i messed up some games because my gameplan was wrong. Here are my thoughts about certain Matchups that i'm not super confident with:
1. Merfolk
This Matchup is tough. Preboard i'm always hesitating about destroying Vial with my Qasali Pridemage because it hurts my more than his. The only exception is, if i see that my opponent is low on lands and relies heavily on having Vial.
The other problem is that i play Islands and after they gummed up the Board i can't do enough to stop the unblocked Merfolks. The Only chance is to combo them out early, because a single Path is not enough to stop him.
I board:
-2 Retreat
-2 Voice
-2 Tracker
-1 Courser
+2 Blessed Alliance
+3 Reflector Mage
+1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
+1 Izzet Staticcaster
Postboard i try to stem the bleeding with some Lifegain and Reflectoring Lords. The single most best card on there side remains Vial because it let them play 2-3 Creatures per turn.
Staticcaster and Thalia are mediocre at best, but i got no clue what's better to stop there harassment.
2. Infect
This is tough because Bant has only few removal. Like against Merfolk, i board out Value-Creatures and try to outmaneuver them. Staticcaster is much better here, taking care of Noble Hierarch.
I try to interact with there pump-spells (Queller, unified will), but i'm super-shaky for leaving in the Combo. Thoughts on that Matchup?
3. Death and Taxes
This matchup is *****ty. They got easy outs against the Combo and once they start flickering there Dudes it gets difficult to win. I try to handle Vial because it allows them all the dirty tricks and try to assemble huge Knights or Oozes - they only have 4 Path to Exile and can't deal easily with huge creatures.
boarding:
-2 Retreat
-2 Queller
-2 Voice
+2 Blessed Alliance
+2 Kitchen Finks
+1 Izzet Staticcaster
+1 Thalia
I try to be the control (and not the beatdown) here and therefore board into more midrange-alike territories. Reflector Mage is not super-great because they can vial there flicker-creatures in after they have been bounced.
Qasali Pridemage is important here for taking away Vial and reserving food for Scavenging Ooze. There biggest threat is Restoration Angel that puts up a real clock on me.
spell queller is mediocre here because vialed Creatures cannot be countered. Thalia is here to prevent surprising block-/flicker-shenanigans that would otherwise kill me.
4. Burn
One reason that i've put back the 3rd Ooze is Burn. Preboard it's super-tough because the Blue-Splash does cost me 3 life a lot of times. I want to present a fast clock / stonewall Goblin Guide and try to Company into something relevant. Qasali Pridemage is great against Eidolon, Selfless Spirit prevents that my board gets decimated too fast and both serve as Scavenging Ooze fodder.
Boarding:
-2 voice of resurgence
-2 retreat
-2 tireless tracker
+2 blessed alliance
+2 kitchen finks
+2 reflector mage
There's an argument for boarding in Unified Will, but i believe that if i'm behind onboard it's a dead card. Qasali Pridemage is debatable, but i had some situations where he chumped Goblin Guide and traded for Eidolon of the Great Revel.
5. Bogles
I'm super-confident that comboing them out is the only way to reliably win.
Path to Exile has too few targets, so i aim to interact with them.
Boarding:
-2 Voice
-2 Tracker
-4 Path
+2 Unified Will
+2 Blessed Alliance
+2 Kitchen Finks
+1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
+1 Reflector Mage
The case here is against Gideon, but it at least presents a clock that i'm certainly in need of. The rest ensures that i'm either stay alive (finks, Alliance) or interact with them (Will, Alliance).
The only 2 Creatures that can be handled are Kor Spiritdancer and a single Dryad Arbor, therefore i'm not willing to rely on Reflector Mage or Path.
7. Dredge
This becomes more popular at my local gamestore. I'm confident to win this Matchup because i have a lot of ways to interact with them.
Boarding:
-2 retreat
-2 Pridemage
-2 Voice
-2 tracker
+2 alliance
+2 finks
+3 reflector
+1 Staticcaster
Preboard they can rush out a quick win if i can't interact or stonewall them, but once there Conflagrate was matched by Queller i got game against them. They key in winning this Matchup is to prevent Conflag from dealing huge chunks of damage and stonewalling there creatures.
Prolongueing the game is what makes the game favorable for me. Postboard i try to stem early harassments and then establish a board they cannot overcome. Stinkweed Imp ist nasty because it blocks everybody to death. After i handle there first 2-3 threats and found some manasources Scavenging Ooze becomes the gamebreaker.
Staticcaster, Finks, Alliance and Reflector ensures that i can stabilize and gum up the board quickly. After that it becomes difficult for dredge to come back.
Summary
I hope that you got some ideas for the way i'm thinking and the way i evaluate those matchups. Criticism is welcome. Some Matchups i only face once in a while, others week in week out - part of the reason that i'm pretty confident in some matchups, uncertain in others.
Green @ it's best
So how would you board against DnT?
On another note, i've placed 1st in a 90 player tournament last sunday with a 6-0-1 record.
Green @ it's best
Green @ it's best
3x Birds of Paradise
4x Noble Hierarch
1x Jace, Vryn's Prodigy Flip
1x Lotus Cobra
1x Qasali Pridemage
2x Scavenging Ooze
1x Selfless Spirit
2x Voice of Resurgence
2x Courser of Kruphix
1x Eternal Witness
1x Geist of Saint Traft
4x Knight of the Reliquary
4x Spell Queller
1x Tireless Tracker
Land (22)
1x Breeding Pool
1x Flooded Strand
3x Forest
1x Gavony Township
1x Ghost Quarter
1x Hallowed Fountain
1x Horizon Canopy
1x Island
1x Kessig Wolf Run
4x Misty Rainforest
1x Plains
1x Stomping Ground
1x Temple Garden
4x Windswept Heath
4x Path to Exile
4x Collected Company
Enchantment (2)
2x Retreat to Coralhelm
1x Bojuka Bog
1x Burrenton Forge-Tender
2x Negate
2x Unified Will
2x Eidolon of Rhetoric
2x Izzet Staticaster
2x Kitchen Finks
1x Reclamation Sage
2x Reflector Mage
I'm especially curious about the 2 drop suite- as you can see i've got a lot of one of's. As you all know some are good in some situations, and not others. lotus is the most fun but also the worst top deck. I may go up on voice as it's the most decent card on its own I'd say. Jace can be great for drawing cards and recurring our very valuable spells. Anyways, help?
Tracker vs Ewit vs geist and courser. I really liked the card selection from courser, and the life gain is relevant so I'm pretty happy with 2. Tracker can be an all star, and i really like geist to add a clock and obviously Ewit can be amazing. I always love the idea of Clique too. Against an open field, how do you guys feel this can be optimized?
Thanks and hope to hear from you guys.