Testing with Goyf it just feels so out of place and often times you question whether or not the extra power and toughness is worth replacing your set of Voices and what not.
I just never feel comfortable for some reason with exactly what my 75 looks like lol I'm always messing with it! We all agree reflector main is right now correct? I definitely miss courser and tracker at times. Here's where I'm at, I'm gonna try something like this at a thing thursday and next tuesday, but I'll take criticism for sure: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/07-03-17-Eul-bant-knightfall/
Edit: One matchup where this configuration is super bad is burn. I always worry about that. Perhaps should help shore that one up more in board, I go back and forth on burrenton forge tender or for fire walker and others.
Re: Goyf, it doesn't seem very good. In ideal scenario, it is 3/4 (land, creature, instant in graveyard). In wonderland scenario, it's 4/5, but you'd need opponent to play a sorcery. In most common scenario, it's 1/2 since Knightfall doesn't have any early instants other than Path. If opponent plays an early instant, then it's 2/3. In most cases, Voice seems better.
It doesn't fit Knightfall as much as Jund/Abzan, where they can protect Goyf with discard and also play cheap instant/sorcery as part of their game plan.
Question to y'all: What is the reason to play 4 birds and 4 hierarchs in this deck? It's nice early on, but really bad in middle and late game. Why not play just 4 of one? Kelvin Chew subs out the birds a lot of the time anyway in game 2.
You are right about it sucking later, but being there on turn one is almost necessary for a deck like ours that pretty much plays fair magic. We need that bump in mana acceleration to keep up and land threats/ stay on pace with the speed of the format. I think thats why most of us play 8, even though it really sucks hitting dorks on company. Also they really help with color fixing too! And worse comes to worse, theres gavony and kessig to pump them if it comes to that!!
I'll admit, I sometimes want to go to 7 dorks, but I always want to play 14 total 3 drops (with retreat) so it always feels too greedy!
Having 8 ways to play a turn 2 Knight, or any other 3 drop, is a big deal. Being able to play 3 drops at an early rapid pace is what makes the deck. The power of playing a T2 Knight is unparalleled compared to a T3 Knight. Yes, it is a poor top deck but the extra body and mana it provides is perfect with Knight's ability to fetch Gavony Township and Kessig Wolf Run. We don't have Deathrite Shaman and Green Sun's Zenith as mana dorks. They are the kind of cards that are extremely powerful early game (Turn One DRS or GSZ for Dryad Arbor into turn Two Knight of the Reliquary) and equally as powerful late game (DRS is a planeswalker KEK, GSZ into Knight, Tracker, etc). If you can find purpose later in the game or mitigate their low impact then 8 is a fine choice. Some ways include:
- Gavony Township
- Kessig Wolf Run
- Vizier of the Menagerie and Courser of Kruphix (you can play mana dorks off the top of your deck alongside lands from courser)
- Tireless Tracker clues (extra mana)
- Lifecrafter's Beastiary
- Eldritch Evolution
- Voice of Resurgence Token
- Evolutionary Leap
- Retreat to Coralhelm + Mana dork is effectively Lotus Cobra
I think you're asking the wrong question. What I believe you're trying to ask is if there is a Collected Company deck that plays Goyf because it's coherent with its game plan. I don't think it does better in any Company deck other than Naya. It just doesn't do anything other than attack or block.
Basically, it's eschewing the Retreat combo entirely in favor of threeNissa, Steward of Elements. No Path to Exile in the main seems crazy though, so I've compromised with 2 Paths main.
I've always been an advocate of keeping the combo in up to now but... it's honestly hard to justify with GDS as the top deck. The odds of a Knight being cast and living and THEN a Retreat being cast uncontested are just so low it's almost fantasy. Nissa is GAS. She works perfectly with the make-up of our deck. Once she's at 3, she generates an absurd amount of card advantage given that she hits about 5/6 of the deck. Also diversifies our draws and mitigates mana flooding. Great turn 2 play, great late game draw.
Sorry I only play paper.
How many Vizier of Remedies do we really need? She's a terrible card on her own. I dropped to three and got a voice back. I've never looked back, not with chords and companies.
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Be extremely conscious about fetching Island type shock lands. Only do it as a last resort so as to minimize the islandwalk from the Merfolk side. Sometimes you can gum up the board enough with your bigger creatures that Islandwalk is the only way they can get past you. You can use Knight to sac the lands that they are trying to spreading seas, but remember that you can only sac forests and plains. Therefore, you should also be conscious to not get your utility lands like Gavony and Kessig until you absolutely have to because they can't be sacced in response to a spreading seas. Finally, as a last resort, if they do manage to hit a land with spreading seas (especially a utility land since they can't be sacced to Knight) you can try to fetch up a ghost quarter and ghost quarter your own land that is underneath the spreading seas. If it comes down to the Ghost Quarter play, try and do it when they feel like they are safe to attack with Islandwalk, then you get rid of your island and try and block to decimate their board. Also, always be conscious about Aether Vial and what options he can vial in at any moment.
These are just very general tips. The matchup does feel pretty rough, but you have to play extremely smart. I have played traditional Knightfall for about a year now and I have a friend who plays Merfolk regularly. We got paired up often at our LGS and we seemed to go back and forth a lot, but the more we learned about the tricks of each other's decks, the harder it felt for me. It seems like a matchup where the most experienced player should win. If you know your side, and they aren't well prepared and don't know how to play against you, you should be fine. There aren't great sideboard options aside from staticasters, so I guess load up on those if Merfolk is a big problem at your LGS. If you're going into a larger tournament though, Merfolk isn't an extremely popular deck so I wouldn't go hog wild trying to beat it at the expense of other matchups. Other than that, hope to get lucky I guess. Either get lucky off of them getting screwed, you getting insanely good Collected Company hits, or hope to hit your combo without interaction.
I haven't run into merfolk for a while, but I used to have a Ghostly Prison or two in my board to deal with them. As it turns out, Reflector Mage, Spell Queller, and Qasali Pridemage are your best cards. Qasali to blow up Aether Vial. It's a completely valid play to play and immediately sack Qasali T2 if you can to get rid of the vial. Without vial, they are not nearly fast enought to keep up with Collected Company.
Does anyone remember the older iterations of knightfall that were attempting to play clique to improve our flash game and interaction? I remember talking about how there weren't enough good flash creatures to support the game plan (like 100 pages back maybe)
Anyone think nimble obstructionist is worth testing? Obstructionist, queller, and clique form a really powerful team with company and manadorks - evasion and interacting at instant speed.
I tried Knightfall at a WNM tonight. Only 10 players, but capped at 4 rounds.
Round 1 vs. Humans. This list was not exactly like the 4 color Human's lists you've probably seen. I actually considered running one of those before settling on Knightfall tonight. In the first game, he ran me over and I couldn't stabilize. Double Champion of the Parish and Mantis Rider made it tough. In the next 2 games, I stabilized and even had Knight of the Reliquary with Courser of Kruphix. That felt really good. 2-1.
Round 2 vs. Abzan Midrange. This is the guy I got a ride with. We usually run Titan Shift, but we try other decks often. In the first game, he just didn't draw that much after double Rhino put me at 8 life. I doubled blocked twice with Voice of Resurgence and Qasali Pridemage, while doing Gavony Township to make sure his exalted Rhino died. The same thing happened to another Rhino. In the next game, he gets me low with some Lingering Souls tokens, but I have Knight into fetching and Kessig Wolf Run to swing past some Souls tokens. 2-0.
Round 3 vs. Collected Zoo. This guy runs only Zoo. He knows how to make adjustments and play the deck very well. He gets me with too much pressure in game 1. I made a mistake in blocking a Loxodon Smiter with my Scooze after exiling 2 creatures to trade, but I could have done the Wild Nacatl and saved the Ooze, which could have diminished his Smiter and Goyf. I end up not having enough after I can't play multiple creatures and he keeps on me. In the next game, he does EoT shock/fetch to Path to Exile my Selfless Spirit, then he has removal for 2 Spell Queller and my Reflector Mage can't do much. He basically tempoed my out of this game. I think if I played better, I could have made it close, but not having enough experience with the deck and the matchup made it tough to stabilize. 0-2.
Round 4 vs. Abzan Midrange. Another list. This guy has done very well with Abzan and it is really pretty much the only deck he plays. He gets me with Lingering Souls tokens, then flashback and another. I make a decision to Scavenging Ooze to exile the other one and hope to hit 1-2 Spell Queller off Collected Company to block some tokens and stabilize. I hit Selfless Spirit and Spell Queller. After blocking with some Birds, I stabilize with Scavening Ooze life gain and then exiling the graveyards to keep 3 Tarmogoyfs at bay. He went for Maelstrom Pulse on one of my Oozes, but I used Spelll Queller to get him to scoop. In the next game, I just drew too much gas. He got Grim Flayer, but I quickly got it with Path to Exile (I should have done Tarmogoyf though). I end up getting Izzet Staticaster and the 2 Lingering Souls that he milled off Grim Flayer early were diminished. Then he had another in hand, which he showed me later. I end up getting creature after creature, fetching up Gavony Township and making my Knights big. I just kept at it with gas each turn and with mana dorks like the first game, it was easy to do a lot of stuff on each turn. 2-0.
I get 3-1, which was an improvement over my last 2 times at this place when I was 2-0 going into the last 2 rounds and lost both of them twice to 2-2 two tournaments. Can't be mad about 2nd place! Tough deck to play, but super fun when you draw gas.
When you side in Bojuka Bog vs. Abzan Midrange, what land do you side out? My thought was Kessig Wolf Run, but maybe Gavony Township is less useful? My thought was that I need to grind through blockers if it comes to that, but the +1/+1 counters can be invaluable in the matchup, especially on BoP, making him big enough to kill Soul's tokens. In retrospect, both of those are probably better than the Bog. I didn't want to take out Ghost Quarter since it's good vs. manlands. Maybe I don't need to worry much about those?
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
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4x hierarch and birds
2x goyf
2x ooze
3x Voice
1x pridemage
4x knight
4x queller
3x mage
1x witness (could be tracker...)
I just never feel comfortable for some reason with exactly what my 75 looks like lol I'm always messing with it! We all agree reflector main is right now correct? I definitely miss courser and tracker at times. Here's where I'm at, I'm gonna try something like this at a thing thursday and next tuesday, but I'll take criticism for sure: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/07-03-17-Eul-bant-knightfall/
Edit: One matchup where this configuration is super bad is burn. I always worry about that. Perhaps should help shore that one up more in board, I go back and forth on burrenton forge tender or for fire walker and others.
It doesn't fit Knightfall as much as Jund/Abzan, where they can protect Goyf with discard and also play cheap instant/sorcery as part of their game plan.
I'll admit, I sometimes want to go to 7 dorks, but I always want to play 14 total 3 drops (with retreat) so it always feels too greedy!
- Gavony Township
- Kessig Wolf Run
- Vizier of the Menagerie and Courser of Kruphix (you can play mana dorks off the top of your deck alongside lands from courser)
- Tireless Tracker clues (extra mana)
- Lifecrafter's Beastiary
- Eldritch Evolution
- Voice of Resurgence Token
- Evolutionary Leap
- Retreat to Coralhelm + Mana dork is effectively Lotus Cobra
There's always Cockatrice...
Personally I've been playing around with a variation of this list that came 1st in an IQ in Foggia Italy:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/686982#paper
Basically, it's eschewing the Retreat combo entirely in favor of three Nissa, Steward of Elements. No Path to Exile in the main seems crazy though, so I've compromised with 2 Paths main.
I've always been an advocate of keeping the combo in up to now but... it's honestly hard to justify with GDS as the top deck. The odds of a Knight being cast and living and THEN a Retreat being cast uncontested are just so low it's almost fantasy. Nissa is GAS. She works perfectly with the make-up of our deck. Once she's at 3, she generates an absurd amount of card advantage given that she hits about 5/6 of the deck. Also diversifies our draws and mitigates mana flooding. Great turn 2 play, great late game draw.
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB
Actually it has been legal on mtgo since 10am yesterday
How many Vizier of Remedies do we really need? She's a terrible card on her own. I dropped to three and got a voice back. I've never looked back, not with chords and companies.
These are just very general tips. The matchup does feel pretty rough, but you have to play extremely smart. I have played traditional Knightfall for about a year now and I have a friend who plays Merfolk regularly. We got paired up often at our LGS and we seemed to go back and forth a lot, but the more we learned about the tricks of each other's decks, the harder it felt for me. It seems like a matchup where the most experienced player should win. If you know your side, and they aren't well prepared and don't know how to play against you, you should be fine. There aren't great sideboard options aside from staticasters, so I guess load up on those if Merfolk is a big problem at your LGS. If you're going into a larger tournament though, Merfolk isn't an extremely popular deck so I wouldn't go hog wild trying to beat it at the expense of other matchups. Other than that, hope to get lucky I guess. Either get lucky off of them getting screwed, you getting insanely good Collected Company hits, or hope to hit your combo without interaction.
Like 14 decks
Knightfall WURG
Anyone think nimble obstructionist is worth testing? Obstructionist, queller, and clique form a really powerful team with company and manadorks - evasion and interacting at instant speed.
Might have legs?
Round 1 vs. Humans. This list was not exactly like the 4 color Human's lists you've probably seen. I actually considered running one of those before settling on Knightfall tonight. In the first game, he ran me over and I couldn't stabilize. Double Champion of the Parish and Mantis Rider made it tough. In the next 2 games, I stabilized and even had Knight of the Reliquary with Courser of Kruphix. That felt really good. 2-1.
Round 2 vs. Abzan Midrange. This is the guy I got a ride with. We usually run Titan Shift, but we try other decks often. In the first game, he just didn't draw that much after double Rhino put me at 8 life. I doubled blocked twice with Voice of Resurgence and Qasali Pridemage, while doing Gavony Township to make sure his exalted Rhino died. The same thing happened to another Rhino. In the next game, he gets me low with some Lingering Souls tokens, but I have Knight into fetching and Kessig Wolf Run to swing past some Souls tokens. 2-0.
Round 3 vs. Collected Zoo. This guy runs only Zoo. He knows how to make adjustments and play the deck very well. He gets me with too much pressure in game 1. I made a mistake in blocking a Loxodon Smiter with my Scooze after exiling 2 creatures to trade, but I could have done the Wild Nacatl and saved the Ooze, which could have diminished his Smiter and Goyf. I end up not having enough after I can't play multiple creatures and he keeps on me. In the next game, he does EoT shock/fetch to Path to Exile my Selfless Spirit, then he has removal for 2 Spell Queller and my Reflector Mage can't do much. He basically tempoed my out of this game. I think if I played better, I could have made it close, but not having enough experience with the deck and the matchup made it tough to stabilize. 0-2.
Round 4 vs. Abzan Midrange. Another list. This guy has done very well with Abzan and it is really pretty much the only deck he plays. He gets me with Lingering Souls tokens, then flashback and another. I make a decision to Scavenging Ooze to exile the other one and hope to hit 1-2 Spell Queller off Collected Company to block some tokens and stabilize. I hit Selfless Spirit and Spell Queller. After blocking with some Birds, I stabilize with Scavening Ooze life gain and then exiling the graveyards to keep 3 Tarmogoyfs at bay. He went for Maelstrom Pulse on one of my Oozes, but I used Spelll Queller to get him to scoop. In the next game, I just drew too much gas. He got Grim Flayer, but I quickly got it with Path to Exile (I should have done Tarmogoyf though). I end up getting Izzet Staticaster and the 2 Lingering Souls that he milled off Grim Flayer early were diminished. Then he had another in hand, which he showed me later. I end up getting creature after creature, fetching up Gavony Township and making my Knights big. I just kept at it with gas each turn and with mana dorks like the first game, it was easy to do a lot of stuff on each turn. 2-0.
I get 3-1, which was an improvement over my last 2 times at this place when I was 2-0 going into the last 2 rounds and lost both of them twice to 2-2 two tournaments. Can't be mad about 2nd place! Tough deck to play, but super fun when you draw gas.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/687187#paper
When you side in Bojuka Bog vs. Abzan Midrange, what land do you side out? My thought was Kessig Wolf Run, but maybe Gavony Township is less useful? My thought was that I need to grind through blockers if it comes to that, but the +1/+1 counters can be invaluable in the matchup, especially on BoP, making him big enough to kill Soul's tokens. In retrospect, both of those are probably better than the Bog. I didn't want to take out Ghost Quarter since it's good vs. manlands. Maybe I don't need to worry much about those?
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)