Ran well 4-0 with my new list. Need more local tournaments to stress test Lotus Cobra but it's not a bad start.
Lands:
Windswept Heath x 4
Misty Rainforest x 4
Flooded Strand x 1
Wooded Foothills x 1
Breeding Pool x 2
Temple Garden x 1
Sacred Foundry x 1
Island x 1
Plains x 1
Forest x 3
Horizon Canopy x 1
Gavony Township x 1
Kessig Wolf Run x 1
Creatures:
Noble Hierarch x 4
Birds of Paradise x 3
Lotus Cobra x 2
Scavenging Ooze x 2
Qasali Pridemage x 1
Knight of the Reliquary x 4
Tireless Tracker x 3
Courser of Kruphix x 2
Spell Queller x 4
Reflector Mage x 3
Vendilion x 1
Spells:
Elspeth, Knight-Errant x 1
Path to Exile x 4
Collected Company x 4
Retreat to Coralhelm x 1
Sideboard:
Izzet Staticaster x 2
Eidolon of Rhetoric x 2
Gaddock Teeg x 2
Qasali Pridemage x 1
Blessed Alliance x 2
Negate x 1
Deprive x 1
Unified Will x 2
Bojuka Bog x 1
Ghost Quarter x 1
I really wanted to play 3-4 Lotus Cobra but my friend said to try only 2 for now and determine how many I wanted after. Every time I had the Lotus Cobra the deck just dominated thoroughly.
I also dropped the Eldritch Evolution sideboard plan entirely. It seems so foolish to believe that it's a good game plan to have only a single tutor card act as the "second copy" of the creature. I feel that having a more solid sideboard composed of 2-of creatures was a much more reliable strategy over a larger sample size of games.
The deck also wants a 4th copy of Reflector Mage. Card is the nuts against so many decks. I feel like the reason why it's so much better in Vizier Knightfall compared to TRADITIONAL Knightfall is that the follow-ups were so much weaker unless you're threatening them with Knight. In this version, you have Lotus Cobra, and so that Reflector mage is followed up by more pressure as opposed to Reflector Mage -> Voice of Resurgence (not really the best lol).
I also feel like I'm just doing much more powerful stuff CONSISTENTLY as opposed to maybe playing a Mana Dork or a Voice, then a Knight, and then hoping to close the game like that. In this version I'm entirely dedicated to acceleration in the lower curve, and then I just have cards that dominate by themselves or have synergy with each other to take control of the game.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
How do you guys feel about the affinity matchup? I used to think that it was favorable but after losing a lot to them I'm starting to think otherwise. Currently have 2 staticaster and 1 eldritch evolution in the sideboard, in addition to 2 stony silence. Playing regular knightfall, no vizier.
Responding to this a bit late, haven't been following the thread recently, but:
I also dropped the Eldritch Evolution sideboard plan entirely. It seems so foolish to believe that it's a good game plan to have only a single tutor card act as the "second copy" of the creature. I feel that having a more solid sideboard composed of 2-of creatures was a much more reliable strategy over a larger sample size of games.
Why is that foolish? Evolution literally is an additional copy of any creature you have post-board, assuming you have a creature in play (very easy to facilitate, not something at risk in most MUs you bring in Evo for) and that your target isn't already in play (in which case, that's great).
By running Evo, you increase the amount of effective sideboard slots you have at, IMO, very little cost.
1. There aren't really many creatures that straight up win a matchup. As such, the sacrifice clause on eldritch evolution is very onerous. By running Evo, you're running an extremely bad version of the creature that would have taken that slot. A yugioh creature that requires a tribute.
2. It gets especially bad when we consider that Eldritch Evo is borderline unplayable against decks like GDS or UW Control.
3, You can't always bank on creatures sticking to the board in late game scenarios. In top-deck wars, Eldritch has the potential to be just as dead as a land draw.
How do you guys feel about the affinity matchup? I used to think that it was favorable but after losing a lot to them I'm starting to think otherwise. Currently have 2 staticaster and 1 eldritch evolution in the sideboard, in addition to 2 stony silence. Playing regular knightfall, no vizier.
A little overboard to be honest. Depending on your list, 3 staticaster + 1/2 MB Qasali is more than enough to tilt that matchup in your favor. Also, as I said above, not a fan of Evo.
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I think it's far too idealistic to consider Eldritch Evolution as a second copy of your sideboard creatures. How many games develop where Eldritch Evolution is that godsend sideboard slot where it gives you that creature to tutor and win the game? Also, you only have a single copy of it within the entire 75. You're going to dilute your sideboard with a myriad of Silver Bullets (that will just die the same way any other creature will) just for the chance at satisfying the theory that Eldritch Evolution will allow you to spread your sideboard density thin while being efficient. It is no Green Sun's Zenith, nor is the creature you're usually getting going to win the game in a landslide fashion. That's why it's a more attractive design to play less kinds of different creatures, and increase the density of very potent creatures like Eidolon of Rhetoric, Izzet Staticaster, Gaddock Teeg and the like. I don't disagree that it's nice to have Eldritch Evolution to have some sort of control over how the particular game will go, but it's not nearly as good as Chord of Calling and doesn't offer the flexibility and efficiency of the sorely missed Green Sun's Zenith.
I think it's verily important to have flexibility for the Modern Format considering it's sooooo wide but with Bant Knightfall, it's clearly evident what MU you are poor at. However, if you define those decks within their archetypes, you can just play very potent sideboard cards for those archetypes rather than the single deck.
1. There aren't really many creatures that straight up win a matchup. As such, the sacrifice clause on eldritch evolution is very onerous. By running Evo, you're running an extremely bad version of the creature that would have taken that slot. A yugioh creature that requires a tribute.
2. It gets especially bad when we consider that Eldritch Evo is borderline unplayable against decks like GDS or UW Control.
3, You can't always bank on creatures sticking to the board in late game scenarios. In top-deck wars, Eldritch has the potential to be just as dead as a land draw.
Evo being unplayable against blue decks isn't something I care about at all, though. It's a sideboard card, not a mainboard one. You're also typically not boarding in the card in matchups where you expect to go into topdeck mode quickly, with the exception of some midrange matchups where I think the trade off is worth having a pseudo extra copy of Knight/Tracker/Courser.
I think you guys are both asking Evo to do too much (aka win the game on its own, which it actually will do sometimes) and undervaluing it. I agree that having a second copy of the hate-dude you're boarding in is likely better than having one hate-dude and one evo. However, you usually don't need the second actual copy of the card (and if you do, you need to draw/CoCo into both) and Evo still has value even when you already found the card you're boarding it in with.
It has performed very well for me both in Knightfall and in Naya Midrange - a deck that is hurting for sideboard space far more than we are, to be fair.
Having read the comments and Kelvin Chew's latest article, as well as from my own observations, I think I want to try the traditional version with about 3 Voice as well as 4 Knight 4 Reflector 4 Queller and 2 Retreat at the 3-drop slot. I won't be able to play for the next little while so if anyone would like to try that out and give me their thoughts that would be great
I took Kelvin Chew's non-combo list from his guide, did -2 Quasali +2 Courser, and 5-0'd the league. 4 Reflector Mage maindeck felt great. It has targets against almost every big name deck right now, and opened up some valuable slots in the SB. Here's the board I ran:
2 Nissa, SoE
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Unified Will
2 negate
1 Qasali pridemage
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
2 Izzet Staticaster
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Kataki
I think you made the point we're trying to make. It's a SIDEBOARD card. It's verily important that your sideboard cards are either stone cold killers like Rest in Peace, or is quite potent in combating a variety of different match-ups, such as Izzet Staticaster. Modern, while it isn't ACTUALLY a turn 3-4 format, is quite fast. To my mind, it doesn't seem quite powerful to be paying 2 mana for Voice of Resurgence and then another 3 mana to sacrifice it to get a hate creature that will probably not win the game. Yes, openings with Noble Hierarch and Eldritch Evolution are great, it's just the same as drawing a powerful sideboard card that will impact the situation immediately, while being more efficient than Eldritch Evolution.
1. There aren't really many creatures that straight up win a matchup. As such, the sacrifice clause on eldritch evolution is very onerous. By running Evo, you're running an extremely bad version of the creature that would have taken that slot. A yugioh creature that requires a tribute.
2. It gets especially bad when we consider that Eldritch Evo is borderline unplayable against decks like GDS or UW Control.
3, You can't always bank on creatures sticking to the board in late game scenarios. In top-deck wars, Eldritch has the potential to be just as dead as a land draw.
Evo being unplayable against blue decks isn't something I care about at all, though. It's a sideboard card, not a mainboard one. You're also typically not boarding in the card in matchups where you expect to go into topdeck mode quickly, with the exception of some midrange matchups where I think the trade off is worth having a pseudo extra copy of Knight/Tracker/Courser.
I think you guys are both asking Evo to do too much (aka win the game on its own, which it actually will do sometimes) and undervaluing it. I agree that having a second copy of the hate-dude you're boarding in is likely better than having one hate-dude and one evo. However, you usually don't need the second actual copy of the card (and if you do, you need to draw/CoCo into both) and Evo still has value even when you already found the card you're boarding it in with.
It has performed very well for me both in Knightfall and in Naya Midrange - a deck that is hurting for sideboard space far more than we are, to be fair.
1. It's just a concern I'm pointing out. We could have been playing a mirran crusader or something for GDS. Also, affinity boards in spell pierce, other evo decks board in negates, etc. The card is extremely weak to countermagic, which already hits our CoCos
2. Games don't have to go to topdeck quickly for it to be a disadvantage. It's a one of. Some games go to topdeck, because we're kinda grindy. In any top-deck war, it's likely to be a dead draw. This is a disadvantage.
3. You haven't addressed the problem of sacrificing a creature. What I'm saying is that sacrificing a creature and blowing 3 mana is only worth it if it wins you the game. The problem here is if you play against, say, affinity, you dont have 3 izzet staticasters. You have 2 izzet staticasters, and 1 izzet staticaster that says "this card cannot be fetched by CoCo, and also, sacrifice a creature when this card comes in to play". In any matchup where the creature doesn't literally win you the game, that's a bad card.
I've had a lot of success without evo. Data points drawn from personal experience aren't worth much. If you want to look at the overall scene, I don't believe I've seen any high placing decks running and evo sideboard. The above reasons are why.
Kelvin Chew has been playing 1-of evolution in the side of normal Knightfall since GP brisbane (11th place). And I believe has made several MTGO 5-0s and good MOCS finishes with it since before gp brisbane and some period after it.
His updated normal Knightfall list in his latest article still recommends 1 copy in the sideboard even though he has since switched to vizier knightfall.
Whatever your arguments are against evolution in normal knightfall, no high placing decks running it isn't a valid one.
Guys please opinions on japanese cards. Lost a 3/3 creature against Japan celestial colonade. This guy played all creatures and spells in english cards, but some cards in his manabase was japanese. I dont registrated this really ( my brain say its all fine and all english to me lets attack his empty board)...and i am sure it is a Kind of legal cheating. It is not ok, but i know legal. I Hate such people. I never forget colonade normally, but with this Tricks it can happen one time in 3 years and such people take advantage of this
If I am a customer spending premium amount of dollars, I expect a premium service. Jund falls into the category of a premium deck costing more dollars than a majority of the rest of the format. I'm not getting the desired performance ratio per dollars spent out of the Jund deck because WOTC decided to make the format more diverse.
But if you look at this configuration of his sideboard, it literally has no silver bullets. It might as well be another Tireless Tracker, or another powerful sideboard card like Blessed Alliance or a tech land for Knight of the Reliquary. His sideboard is incredibly solid and the Eldritch Evolution is just a personal choice of his. When we speak ill of Eldritch Evolution, it's because people decide to play a variety of creatures alongside Eldritch Evolution, when in reality all they're doing is diluting the overall power and potency of their sideboard slots. In comparison to Kelvin Chew's sideboard for the traditional Bant Knightfall list, his sideboard is incredibly dense and doesn't spread thin towards 1-of bullets. He's using it to improve the creature count of the ones he thickens his creature line up with, which becomes more of a personal preference and how comfortable you are with that choice.
This isn't to say that I think that it's horrible, but depending on context and configuration, it is foolish to have it unless your entire 75 is incredibly tight.
Lands:
Windswept Heath x 4
Misty Rainforest x 4
Flooded Strand x 1
Wooded Foothills x 1
Breeding Pool x 2
Temple Garden x 1
Sacred Foundry x 1
Island x 1
Plains x 1
Forest x 3
Horizon Canopy x 1
Gavony Township x 1
Kessig Wolf Run x 1
Creatures:
Noble Hierarch x 4
Birds of Paradise x 3
Lotus Cobra x 2
Scavenging Ooze x 2
Qasali Pridemage x 1
Knight of the Reliquary x 4
Tireless Tracker x 3
Courser of Kruphix x 2
Spell Queller x 4
Reflector Mage x 3
Vendilion x 1
Spells:
Elspeth, Knight-Errant x 1
Path to Exile x 4
Collected Company x 4
Retreat to Coralhelm x 1
Sideboard:
Izzet Staticaster x 2
Eidolon of Rhetoric x 2
Gaddock Teeg x 2
Qasali Pridemage x 1
Blessed Alliance x 2
Negate x 1
Deprive x 1
Unified Will x 2
Bojuka Bog x 1
Ghost Quarter x 1
I really wanted to play 3-4 Lotus Cobra but my friend said to try only 2 for now and determine how many I wanted after. Every time I had the Lotus Cobra the deck just dominated thoroughly.
I also dropped the Eldritch Evolution sideboard plan entirely. It seems so foolish to believe that it's a good game plan to have only a single tutor card act as the "second copy" of the creature. I feel that having a more solid sideboard composed of 2-of creatures was a much more reliable strategy over a larger sample size of games.
The deck also wants a 4th copy of Reflector Mage. Card is the nuts against so many decks. I feel like the reason why it's so much better in Vizier Knightfall compared to TRADITIONAL Knightfall is that the follow-ups were so much weaker unless you're threatening them with Knight. In this version, you have Lotus Cobra, and so that Reflector mage is followed up by more pressure as opposed to Reflector Mage -> Voice of Resurgence (not really the best lol).
I also feel like I'm just doing much more powerful stuff CONSISTENTLY as opposed to maybe playing a Mana Dork or a Voice, then a Knight, and then hoping to close the game like that. In this version I'm entirely dedicated to acceleration in the lower curve, and then I just have cards that dominate by themselves or have synergy with each other to take control of the game.
Probably isn't strong enough on its own, unfortunately
L: Maverick
Why is that foolish? Evolution literally is an additional copy of any creature you have post-board, assuming you have a creature in play (very easy to facilitate, not something at risk in most MUs you bring in Evo for) and that your target isn't already in play (in which case, that's great).
By running Evo, you increase the amount of effective sideboard slots you have at, IMO, very little cost.
2. It gets especially bad when we consider that Eldritch Evo is borderline unplayable against decks like GDS or UW Control.
3, You can't always bank on creatures sticking to the board in late game scenarios. In top-deck wars, Eldritch has the potential to be just as dead as a land draw.
A little overboard to be honest. Depending on your list, 3 staticaster + 1/2 MB Qasali is more than enough to tilt that matchup in your favor. Also, as I said above, not a fan of Evo.
UWUW ControlUW
UGWSpiritsUGW
GHardened ScalesG
WGRUKiki PodWGRU [RIP]
I think it's verily important to have flexibility for the Modern Format considering it's sooooo wide but with Bant Knightfall, it's clearly evident what MU you are poor at. However, if you define those decks within their archetypes, you can just play very potent sideboard cards for those archetypes rather than the single deck.
Evo being unplayable against blue decks isn't something I care about at all, though. It's a sideboard card, not a mainboard one. You're also typically not boarding in the card in matchups where you expect to go into topdeck mode quickly, with the exception of some midrange matchups where I think the trade off is worth having a pseudo extra copy of Knight/Tracker/Courser.
I think you guys are both asking Evo to do too much (aka win the game on its own, which it actually will do sometimes) and undervaluing it. I agree that having a second copy of the hate-dude you're boarding in is likely better than having one hate-dude and one evo. However, you usually don't need the second actual copy of the card (and if you do, you need to draw/CoCo into both) and Evo still has value even when you already found the card you're boarding it in with.
It has performed very well for me both in Knightfall and in Naya Midrange - a deck that is hurting for sideboard space far more than we are, to be fair.
GWU Knightfall Spirit Company GWU
GWB Abzan Evolution GWB
2 Nissa, SoE
2 Tireless Tracker
2 Unified Will
2 negate
1 Qasali pridemage
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
2 Izzet Staticaster
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Kataki
1. It's just a concern I'm pointing out. We could have been playing a mirran crusader or something for GDS. Also, affinity boards in spell pierce, other evo decks board in negates, etc. The card is extremely weak to countermagic, which already hits our CoCos
2. Games don't have to go to topdeck quickly for it to be a disadvantage. It's a one of. Some games go to topdeck, because we're kinda grindy. In any top-deck war, it's likely to be a dead draw. This is a disadvantage.
3. You haven't addressed the problem of sacrificing a creature. What I'm saying is that sacrificing a creature and blowing 3 mana is only worth it if it wins you the game. The problem here is if you play against, say, affinity, you dont have 3 izzet staticasters. You have 2 izzet staticasters, and 1 izzet staticaster that says "this card cannot be fetched by CoCo, and also, sacrifice a creature when this card comes in to play". In any matchup where the creature doesn't literally win you the game, that's a bad card.
I've had a lot of success without evo. Data points drawn from personal experience aren't worth much. If you want to look at the overall scene, I don't believe I've seen any high placing decks running and evo sideboard. The above reasons are why.
UWUW ControlUW
UGWSpiritsUGW
GHardened ScalesG
WGRUKiki PodWGRU [RIP]
His updated normal Knightfall list in his latest article still recommends 1 copy in the sideboard even though he has since switched to vizier knightfall.
Whatever your arguments are against evolution in normal knightfall, no high placing decks running it isn't a valid one.
This isn't to say that I think that it's horrible, but depending on context and configuration, it is foolish to have it unless your entire 75 is incredibly tight.