What's your sideboard plan vs Jeskai Nahiri? Do you keep the Delvers or not? In general, I keep all of the Delvers in every matchup except Jund. Do you agree?
I play KJ's version. Against Jeskai, I take out Delvers. Against Jund too. Haven't played much against Jeskai though. But I do know that when I was on Ryan Overturf's list, you are muuuch more favored than KJ's list against Jeskai and Jund by taking out the Delvers for more counterspells.
It's the fact that jeskai bolts/helix delver and you don't get any value. Forget about it if they electrolyze 2 delvers before flip. I also like collective against them for the duress and most likely drain.
I usually take Delvers out against Jeskai, but I tried last night leaving them in against Jund to great results. I found that I am happy to trade my 1 mana Delver for their 1-3 mana removal spells. It wastes their stuff on a threat that I don't really care about, but is great if it sticks/flips. Then, it's probably more clear for something I actually do care about (like YP or Tasigur). Considering Jund has a massive removal suites that isn't ever going to be boarded out against me, removing my Delvers means they have proportionally more kill spells to my fewer threats. Again, I don't know if it's correct for all builds, but I am definitely NOT a control deck. Trying to take control of a value deck like Jund isn't going to happen unless I am also maintaining pressure and making them waste resources while filling my hand with AV.
I don't think its wrong to leave delvers in, but I take them out due to what I want to bring in. I bring in more counters, painful, loothouse, EE (hits goyf, bob, ooze or this one lingering souls splash jund player), I already run 2 kommand md. I have brought in surgical against jund, and it did work out, allowing me to extract goyf and check hand to see if he had one in hand which I remember not being able to deal with. I also remember blocking and extracting to shrink goyf at some point. I dropped the strategy for a more fundamental approach of riding the value train (choo choo).
I don't understand all this talk about Surgical Extraction against Jund and not being able to deal with Tarmogoyfs.
The deck has Terminate, EE, Spell Snare and Snapcasters to flash them back. Also Tasigurs and Gurmags to bounce off them, YP tokens to chump. Goyfs just shouldn't be a problem.
Well um you know... you use stuff and they use stuff and they draw a goyf.. and you don't draw a terminate, EE or spell snare. Things like this happen. Yes they do. I feel like you're also taking it out of context I was simply stating that I have used surgical against them and had it be good, but do not think its worth it in general to sb it in.
For the record, I run 1 main deck and just didn't take it out. I hit the goyf game 3 after losing game 2 to a goyf crashing in for like 14 damage over 3 turns after killing it, him k commanding it back, and me bricking on answers.
I don't understand all this talk about Surgical Extraction against Jund and not being able to deal with Tarmogoyfs.
The deck has Terminate, EE, Spell Snare and Snapcasters to flash them back. Also Tasigurs and Gurmags to bounce off them, YP tokens to chump. Goyfs just shouldn't be a problem.
That's because its not a vacuum where you have your entire library in your hand and they have just the goyf. They inquisition your bolt turn 1, play a bob turn 2, you spend your terminate on that, then they play lily turn 3 and uptick, your hand is nearly gone, and THEN the goyf comes down and they leave up mana for terminate/decay for your own threats.
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BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
making a total of 14 SB cards I feel it's the core(the 2nd Brutality could be off I guess).
What would you guys propose to fight off the many Scapeshift + Jeskai Nahiri decks in my region?
i am thinking of Cfusionpm's Molten Rain(though I feel 1 is not enough), Crumble To Dust(mana limitations though), and don't know what else. Thanks in advance
Honestly against jeskai i feel invincible, especially if they are on cryptic. They are just so mana inneficient compared to us. Just make sure your pyromancers are siege gang commanders and make sure your tasigurs are at worst 5 mana recollect and your fine. Dumping threat after threat onto the table hoping there's no removal is playing into their game, dont play inti their game. K command is huge here. For the side, all i bring in vs them is 2x dispel 1x painful truths 1x thoughtseize 1x Countersquall, siding out 4x delver 1x probe. Jund this is my same sideboard plan, except i side in 2x magma spray instead of 2x dispel, and side out collective brutality instead of probe
making a total of 14 SB cards I feel it's the core(the 2nd Brutality could be off I guess).
What would you guys propose to fight off the many Scapeshift + Jeskai Nahiri decks in my region?
i am thinking of Cfusionpm's Molten Rain(though I feel 1 is not enough), Crumble To Dust(mana limitations though), and don't know what else. Thanks in advance
Honestly against jeskai i feel invincible, especially if they are on cryptic. They are just so mana inneficient compared to us. Just make sure your pyromancers are siege gang commanders and make sure your tasigurs are at worst 5 mana recollect and your fine. Dumping threat after threat onto the table hoping there's no removal is playing into their game, dont play inti their game. K command is huge here. For the side, all i bring in vs them is 2x dispel 1x painful truths 1x thoughtseize 1x Countersquall, siding out 4x delver 1x probe. Jund this is my same sideboard plan, except i side in 2x magma spray instead of 2x dispel, and side out collective brutality instead of probe
Yes. Your observations seem 100% right to me. I playtested a lot against the matchup the past days, and in the first game I went delver after delver after delve threat and I only won because he was flooded to a point. Then I immediately switched my playstyle in the next game, and got immediately rewarded. You have to have patience, as you said pyromancers need to be siege gang commanders and play late tasigurs.
It's interesting that you side out the Delvers. I think I have to try it out.
Another (final) question.
It's about Gitaxian Probe: I personally don't love it in this deck. I feel I have to have the 2nd Kolaghan's Command. This card is gas. And I absolutely love the 3rd Spell Snare, so I am not playing Probes(2 YP). If I did it would still be with 2 YP and 3 Probes. Am I missing too much for not playing Gitaxian Probe based on your experience with the deck(and exactly what Do i miss out on except the sweet Turn 2 Young Pyromancer+Gitaxian Probe play)?
Check out my list in my signature, i run the second command, i have since i built the deck, and i would never change that. The third snare is something i have been trying to fit for a long time, but just cant quite bring myself to cut anything.
One big, subtle thing about probe is consistency. With it, my list currently has 12 cantrips. This amount of consistency is what makes 19 lands viable, and i find my 1 ofs an extremely disproportionate amount of games. The information is absolutely invaluable and cant be understated. Suprsingly ive never actually, to my knowledge, done a t2 pyro into probe, but have had the opportunity numerous times
Overall the deck still plays pretty strongly and he does very well. It's certainly a cool take on the deck and definitely plays more to Caleb's style.
I love his list personally. Dispel is great atm in my opinion. It hits so many relevant targets that Snare misses and is almost always live (protection from Path with one mana open after Delving is great). I think I'll try this list tomorrow and see how it goes.
Would you guys ever play a 4th Spell Snare? I know Overturf likes having four of them in his deck. Reason why I'm asking this is because I have a fourth one sitting in my binder for a while and I would like to trade it for other Grixis stuff like a second K-Command/Brutality. Sucks because I also hate breaking my playsets
Has Blood Moon fallen out of flavour again lateley?
I remember we had a discussion about it some time ago but i rarely see any copys showing up in actual lists.
It's such a great card against Eldrazi, Scapeshift and can even slow down Tron or wreck Jund if they are unprepared for it.
@deathstroke:
Just keep the 4th copy even if you rarely use it. It's always nice to have playsets of cards.
i run 2 in my side for valakut and eldrazi. i dont like siding it in vs jund personally, although i will occasionally bring them in to try to steal a game 2.
Another (final) question.
It's about Gitaxian Probe: I personally don't love it in this deck. I feel I have to have the 2nd Kolaghan's Command. This card is gas. And I absolutely love the 3rd Spell Snare, so I am not playing Probes(2 YP). If I did it would still be with 2 YP and 3 Probes. Am I missing too much for not playing Gitaxian Probe based on your experience with the deck(and exactly what Do i miss out on except the sweet Turn 2 Young Pyromancer+Gitaxian Probe play)?
One cool thing about Probe is keeping a one lander with Probe and Serum in your starting hand. It's awesome.
I have played both version and I like them both to be honest. I was going for Overturf's version (that's why I got myself 4 Snares) but ended up switching for Kevin's list because I'm a huge fan of him. He's having a LOT of success with his version. Btw, he did end up 16th at last weekend's SCG Classic event. I'm still relatively new to the deck to tell you the difference between Probe/Probe-less builds, but I do believe you should give it another shot. One thing is for sure is there are some cool stuff you can do with Probes.
What would you guys propose to fight off the many Scapeshift + Jeskai Nahiri decks in my region?
i am thinking of Cfusionpm's Molten Rain(though I feel 1 is not enough), Crumble To Dust(mana limitations though), and don't know what else. Thanks in advance
I don't think Molten Rain would be as helpful to that list. And as much as I love Crumble, by the time we have 4 mana, the damage is usually done. I run it in mine because I throw out the window any idea that I am a control deck. I want early pressure backed up by minor tempo. I have lost too many close games trying to be a control deck, so everything I do should deal damage and kill them, pressure them into playing defensively, or have just enough answers to stabilize for the kill. Molten Rain falls in line with that directly.
Honestly though, for your list to combat those two specifically (Scapeshift/Nahiri) you could run Shadow of Doubt. Instant speed, flips Delver, triggers YP, hits both decks of their win cons, and randomly hoses fetchlands while replacing itself. I used to run that back when Nahiri was everywhere in late Spring early Summer. Even if not used on their finisher, it feels really good to Doubt their Turn 2 fetch.
oooooo thats a good topic, # of snappys! as you can see, i cut the 4th one from the list. reasoning behind that is i was getting too many games where i just couldnt get value out of him (stuck on 3 lands, drawing him after delving everything away, etc) and went down to 3. i feele like, especially with 2 k command, im never short on snapcasters. has anyone else tried 3?
The card is seeing a lot of sideboard play and I love using it against Dredge, but are there other match-ups where people are bringing it in? I have found it useful against grixis control and in the mirror match. Extracting a Snapcaster Mage target or even the mage itself have been strong plays for me. I have also used the info from Gitaxian Probe to snipe multiple cards from hand. What are some other uses for the card?
Is extraction good to bring it against Snapcaster Mage decks? Sideboard space is limited, so getting the most use out of the slots is something I am trying to implement.
Also as an MTGO player remember you have to click on the card in the graveyard to exile it!
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The card is seeing a lot of sideboard play and I love using it against Dredge, but are there other match-ups where people are bringing it in? I have found it useful against grixis control and in the mirror match. Extracting a Snapcaster Mage target or even the mage itself have been strong plays for me. I have also used the info from Gitaxian Probe to snipe multiple cards from hand. What are some other uses for the card?
Is extraction good to bring it against Snapcaster Mage decks? Sideboard space is limited, so getting the most use out of the slots is something I am trying to implement.
Also as an MTGO player remember you have to click on the card in the graveyard to exile it!
On a side note, just in case a few of us don't do this already, it's almost always a great idea to Thought Scour your opponent if they ever scry something to the top. It's super lulz whether you have Surgical or not.
The card is seeing a lot of sideboard play and I love using it against Dredge, but are there other match-ups where people are bringing it in? I have found it useful against grixis control and in the mirror match. Extracting a Snapcaster Mage target or even the mage itself have been strong plays for me. I have also used the info from Gitaxian Probe to snipe multiple cards from hand. What are some other uses for the card?
Is extraction good to bring it against Snapcaster Mage decks? Sideboard space is limited, so getting the most use out of the slots is something I am trying to implement.
Also as an MTGO player remember you have to click on the card in the graveyard to exile it!
On a side note, just in case a few of us don't do this already, it's almost always a great idea to Thought Scour your opponent if they ever scry something to the top. It's super lulz whether you have Surgical or not.
Yeah, I do that a lot. This is useful and all of us should keep that in mind. Also, dont forget to scour the opponents when you have scried something at top. Hope you don't ever get to see the scried kolaghan's Command entering the graveyard when empty handed in a grindy game vs Jund
EDIT: vs scapeshift in general, you should scour them unless you have a live Tasigur on the next turn so they get rid of shocklands(and make them fear of Extraction-or maybe even have that or topdeck it later in the game) and run out of them resulting in them not being able to kill you and needing 2 more lands for 2 valakuts trigger to kill you out. Good Scapeshift players will try to play around Surgical Extraction with their combo if you even scour them once.
I've had some luck using it against tron as well. Thought scour them and hope to hit a tron land. Works better if you run land destruction as well.
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I play KJ's version. Against Jeskai, I take out Delvers. Against Jund too. Haven't played much against Jeskai though. But I do know that when I was on Ryan Overturf's list, you are muuuch more favored than KJ's list against Jeskai and Jund by taking out the Delvers for more counterspells.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I don't think its wrong to leave delvers in, but I take them out due to what I want to bring in. I bring in more counters, painful, loothouse, EE (hits goyf, bob, ooze or this one lingering souls splash jund player), I already run 2 kommand md. I have brought in surgical against jund, and it did work out, allowing me to extract goyf and check hand to see if he had one in hand which I remember not being able to deal with. I also remember blocking and extracting to shrink goyf at some point. I dropped the strategy for a more fundamental approach of riding the value train (choo choo).
Well um you know... you use stuff and they use stuff and they draw a goyf.. and you don't draw a terminate, EE or spell snare. Things like this happen. Yes they do. I feel like you're also taking it out of context I was simply stating that I have used surgical against them and had it be good, but do not think its worth it in general to sb it in.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
That's because its not a vacuum where you have your entire library in your hand and they have just the goyf. They inquisition your bolt turn 1, play a bob turn 2, you spend your terminate on that, then they play lily turn 3 and uptick, your hand is nearly gone, and THEN the goyf comes down and they leave up mana for terminate/decay for your own threats.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
https://youtu.be/qMlFsM0qr-I?list=PL04lbfeNAaS8eItuutv1V9opg-f_GWiNW
There are a ton of differences, but some of the main ones are to a lot of the lists nowadays:
Maindeck:
3 Gurmag Angler / 1 Tasigur, the Golden Fang as Delve threats
2 Remand , no Mana Leak
No Spirebluff Canal
1 Dispel , no Spell Snare
Sideboard:
2 Cryptic Command
Overall the deck still plays pretty strongly and he does very well. It's certainly a cool take on the deck and definitely plays more to Caleb's style.
Honestly against jeskai i feel invincible, especially if they are on cryptic. They are just so mana inneficient compared to us. Just make sure your pyromancers are siege gang commanders and make sure your tasigurs are at worst 5 mana recollect and your fine. Dumping threat after threat onto the table hoping there's no removal is playing into their game, dont play inti their game. K command is huge here. For the side, all i bring in vs them is 2x dispel 1x painful truths 1x thoughtseize 1x Countersquall, siding out 4x delver 1x probe. Jund this is my same sideboard plan, except i side in 2x magma spray instead of 2x dispel, and side out collective brutality instead of probe
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
Check out my list in my signature, i run the second command, i have since i built the deck, and i would never change that. The third snare is something i have been trying to fit for a long time, but just cant quite bring myself to cut anything.
One big, subtle thing about probe is consistency. With it, my list currently has 12 cantrips. This amount of consistency is what makes 19 lands viable, and i find my 1 ofs an extremely disproportionate amount of games. The information is absolutely invaluable and cant be understated. Suprsingly ive never actually, to my knowledge, done a t2 pyro into probe, but have had the opportunity numerous times
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
I love his list personally. Dispel is great atm in my opinion. It hits so many relevant targets that Snare misses and is almost always live (protection from Path with one mana open after Delving is great). I think I'll try this list tomorrow and see how it goes.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
i run 2 in my side for valakut and eldrazi. i dont like siding it in vs jund personally, although i will occasionally bring them in to try to steal a game 2.
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
One cool thing about Probe is keeping a one lander with Probe and Serum in your starting hand. It's awesome.
I have played both version and I like them both to be honest. I was going for Overturf's version (that's why I got myself 4 Snares) but ended up switching for Kevin's list because I'm a huge fan of him. He's having a LOT of success with his version. Btw, he did end up 16th at last weekend's SCG Classic event. I'm still relatively new to the deck to tell you the difference between Probe/Probe-less builds, but I do believe you should give it another shot. One thing is for sure is there are some cool stuff you can do with Probes.
I don't think Molten Rain would be as helpful to that list. And as much as I love Crumble, by the time we have 4 mana, the damage is usually done. I run it in mine because I throw out the window any idea that I am a control deck. I want early pressure backed up by minor tempo. I have lost too many close games trying to be a control deck, so everything I do should deal damage and kill them, pressure them into playing defensively, or have just enough answers to stabilize for the kill. Molten Rain falls in line with that directly.
Honestly though, for your list to combat those two specifically (Scapeshift/Nahiri) you could run Shadow of Doubt. Instant speed, flips Delver, triggers YP, hits both decks of their win cons, and randomly hoses fetchlands while replacing itself. I used to run that back when Nahiri was everywhere in late Spring early Summer. Even if not used on their finisher, it feels really good to Doubt their Turn 2 fetch.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
The card is seeing a lot of sideboard play and I love using it against Dredge, but are there other match-ups where people are bringing it in? I have found it useful against grixis control and in the mirror match. Extracting a Snapcaster Mage target or even the mage itself have been strong plays for me. I have also used the info from Gitaxian Probe to snipe multiple cards from hand. What are some other uses for the card?
Is extraction good to bring it against Snapcaster Mage decks? Sideboard space is limited, so getting the most use out of the slots is something I am trying to implement.
Also as an MTGO player remember you have to click on the card in the graveyard to exile it!
On a side note, just in case a few of us don't do this already, it's almost always a great idea to Thought Scour your opponent if they ever scry something to the top. It's super lulz whether you have Surgical or not.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
I've had some luck using it against tron as well. Thought scour them and hope to hit a tron land. Works better if you run land destruction as well.