Hey guys
I need a little help here
my meta is creatures heavy stompy, elves, some variations of tokens, company decks, 1 or 2 controls (esper and jeskai), rg ponza.
I wonder what build is better there, with young pyromancer and probes ou clique and more counters.
Only 1-2 actual control decks points me in the direction of Young Pyromancer and Gitaxian Probe. Elves are an aggro deck, but your life total tends to not matter much. When they're swinging for lethal, it will be several levels of overkill beyond 20.
While we're on the subject of lists with Pyro and Probe, here's one that has performed excellently for me in testing:
I haven't sided in Truths much, but I'll hold on to it until I face BGX more extensively. They could easily be Blood Moons, though I think I'd tweak the manabase a tad if they were.
I actually just got finished testing the Delver vs. Dredge matchup, and 2 Rakdos Charm plus 2 Surgical Extraction make the postboard games highly competitive. The matchup is our worst and there's not much that can be done about that, but both of those cards punish Dredge hard enough to give us a chance. My MVP on the creature front has been Tasigur, the Golden Fang - they can't get rid of him nearly as easily as they can a Delver of Secrets or a Young Pyromancer, and that matters a lot.
I'm curious regarding your experiences with Blood Moon, as your manabase is even more R heavy than mine - has it resulted in awkwardness on your end?
Only 1-2 actual control decks points me in the direction of Young Pyromancer and Gitaxian Probe. Elves are an aggro deck, but your life total tends to not matter much. When they're swinging for lethal, it will be several levels of overkill beyond 20.
While we're on the subject of lists with Pyro and Probe, here's one that has performed excellently for me in testing:
I haven't sided in Truths much, but I'll hold on to it until I face BGX more extensively. They could easily be Blood Moons, though I think I'd tweak the manabase a tad if they were.
thanks man, I really enjoy this list and I'll play that.
I've got most of the pieces for Grixis Delver except for Snappy, which I plan to buy when it gets reprinted on MM2017. In the meantime, my local magic community is actually ok with a couple of proxies and I will certainly try it in order to get some practice with the full deck. However, it would also be nice to go to a sanctioned event every once in a while in Grixis colors. Is it possible to convert Grixis Delver into a more tempo-oriented deck with Swiftspears? The Primer talks about her as a budget option but I couldn't find a decklist. Note that I've been collecting UR staples for a while, so I have most of the stuff ranging from Forked Bolt to Twisted Image, Electrolyze or Grim Lavamancer.
This is my current decklist, usually proxying Swiftspears as Snappys. Any comments are much appreciated! Manabase, spell choices, sideboard, you name it. I'm personally not too sold on Fulminator Mages. I'm a divided Grixis Delver player, as I love my Young Ps and also love my counterspells. Overall, I feel like this list is somewhere in between Jones and Overturf.
Swiftspear is a great card, but nothing can compare to snapcaster mage. He is so good that he's really not replaceable. By all means run Swiftspear for budget reasons, but you are missing out on some major percentage points without snapcaster.
If you want to see a decent snapcasterless deck check out the ur delver video Reid Duke just put up on channelfireball. I'd link it, but for some reason the site won't pop up for me right now.
I've never really considered Swiftspear, but maybe it could help. It would certainly ease how much you need the graveyard. That said, Swifty is another card that really wants you to play Gitaxian Probe, so you're going to have to find some room for that. I also strongly prefer Surgical Extraction to Extirpate. The lifeloss is well worth the ability to jam it while tapped out.
@Jonny_Tempel: Why do you think Painful Truths is only better in the Pyromancer builds? I thought the general consensus was that PT is a better topdeck and AV eats too much SB space. Do you think 3x AV is good? I'm playing the Overturf list and am currently playing 2 PTs but I consider to switch to 3 AVs (4 is definitely too much).
Exactly that. You need AV in your opening hand for maximun value. It's a bad topdeck, especially in the Pyromancer shell which tries to be more proactive and end the game faster. Drawing AV on t4 when you need more resources to end the game NOW is just bad. If you play the more controling version, most games will go longer and a later drawn AV is not that bad when there are still some rounds to go. That may sound awkward but i hope you get what i mean.
And i believe 3 is the magic Number, you often don't want to draw multiple copies.
I had one game against Mardu Nahiri, when i was still running the controling shell, where i resolved all 4 AV and my opponent casted and flashbacked his entire playset of lingering souls. It was the most grindy game i've ever played and i would have never won without those 12!! extra cards by AV to deal with all those Lilianas, Nahiris and Souls token...
lol I had the same thing 4 lingering souls and 2 flashback against an esper twix list but I only resolved 1 AV and won that match. I find AV is kind of a "counter" to linger souls in the grindy department and the more I play against souls I tend to find AV great against it and I'm less scared of souls than I used to be. Even just bolting one souls token is good enough to negate its value as 1 damage a turn is pretty weak compared to a grizzly bear.
I've never really considered Swiftspear, but maybe it could help. It would certainly ease how much you need the graveyard. That said, Swifty is another card that really wants you to play Gitaxian Probe, so you're going to have to find some room for that. I also strongly prefer Surgical Extraction to Extirpate. The lifeloss is well worth the ability to jam it while tapped out.
Extirpate vs surgical they're both similar but different enough to not be strictly better than each other. I'd say extirpate is more powerful with the broken split second ability but surgical has a slight edge against dredge as early as turn 0 on the draw which makes it very important with dredge at T1. Extirpate is better against combo though. Funny story against dredge after I lost game 1, I had a hand with extirpate but no black mana which I kept, but didnt draw my first black source until turn 3. I lost that game, but if extirpate was surgical extraction in that scenario, I'm pretty sure I would of won that game.
Yeah, if you can hit amalgams (and blood ghast depending on deck) you just win on the spot. Another thing of note is that tapping out and taking (at least) 3 damage on t4 or so is not something that you can really expect to do and still win. Truths only really shines when both players are out of cards and you top it in the very late game, but even then there is a good chance you will be at low enough life your opponent can just burn you out. 2 av has served me well in the board, I would recommend that over X # of truths any day of the week.
On a different note, should I switch the EE in my board for another skite or stratocaster given that there is alot of infect (and a uw taxes guy I'm always up against) with no boggles to be seen?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire." --Jaya Ballard
I think I might be on Grixis Delver for a bit with a couple mainboard blood moons until the meta sorts out. Too much Infect, Bant, and Scapeshift at my shop. Blood Moon is GG against pretty much everything now.
I recently 5-0'd my league with my Grixis Delver list. The main differences in my list is that I'm running 6 counterspells main; 2 Countersquall (no Mana Leak), 3 Snare, 1 Pierce, only 2 Pyros and 2 Probes (also 3 Spirebluff Canals). Snare and Squall have been complete all-stars thus far, squall get snapcaster'd in a lot of matchups netting 4 damage which can often be the difference in having the reach to finish games if your creatures get shut-down. Snare is just amazing tempo, and never falls off. It's a powerhouse against Affinity and Burn, is relevant in almost every matchup, plus it never falls off. I'm considering dropping the Pierce and making it a 4th Snare, but I value the diversity a lot.
I had one question that I wanted to pose was how has Collective Brutality been performing for you guys, and given the current meta do you think it deserves a mainboard slot, sideboard slot, or some sort of split?
I recently 5-0'd my league with my Grixis Delver list. The main differences in my list is that I'm running 6 counterspells main; 2 Countersquall (no Mana Leak), 3 Snare, 1 Pierce, only 2 Pyros and 2 Probes (also 3 Spirebluff Canals). Snare and Squall have been complete all-stars thus far, squall get snapcaster'd in a lot of matchups netting 4 damage which can often be the difference in having the reach to finish games if your creatures get shut-down. Snare is just amazing tempo, and never falls off. It's a powerhouse against Affinity and Burn, is relevant in almost every matchup, plus it never falls off. I'm considering dropping the Pierce and making it a 4th Snare, but I value the diversity a lot.
I had one question that I wanted to pose was how has Collective Brutality been performing for you guys, and given the current meta do you think it deserves a mainboard slot, sideboard slot, or some sort of split?
If I don't have all the cards to mess with Spirits this week, I will be testing Brutality in the main. It is very flexible, and actually helps fuel our delve spells if we escalate it.
Is anyone playing with Blood Moon in the main or does it put too much of a strain on our mana base?
I recently 5-0'd my league with my Grixis Delver list. The main differences in my list is that I'm running 6 counterspells main; 2 Countersquall (no Mana Leak), 3 Snare, 1 Pierce, only 2 Pyros and 2 Probes (also 3 Spirebluff Canals). Snare and Squall have been complete all-stars thus far, squall get snapcaster'd in a lot of matchups netting 4 damage which can often be the difference in having the reach to finish games if your creatures get shut-down. Snare is just amazing tempo, and never falls off. It's a powerhouse against Affinity and Burn, is relevant in almost every matchup, plus it never falls off. I'm considering dropping the Pierce and making it a 4th Snare, but I value the diversity a lot.
I had one question that I wanted to pose was how has Collective Brutality been performing for you guys, and given the current meta do you think it deserves a mainboard slot, sideboard slot, or some sort of split?
Collective Brutality get rid of some main spells that our opponent controls and we can get value of dead cards so i think that one main deck is fair enough.
Hello everyone,
I am new to modern as well as to Grixis Delver and I've learned a ton from this primer as well as from watching people play the deck but I do still have a general deck building question. Electrolyze or Forked bolt? One draws you a card and the other can be cast for 1/3 the cost. Which do you prefer and why?
I've been running 2x Collective Brutality main and I've been loving it. It offers more consistent delving, gives value to dead cards, and is an answer to aggro strategies, Master of Waves, Confidants, Infect creatures, mana dorks, naked scoozes, and a number of other common creatures. It also functions to strip important instant/sorceries and gains info. I've been sticking to this list when I run delver, and it's been treating me right.
Also, I like Electrolyze over Forked Bolt just because even when it's dead, it let's you cycle it while burning to the face.
As you might have seen my SB consists only of 13 cards.
The reason is that I'm really undecided which 2 cards I should add.
My meta is pretty diverse. Lots of Ramp (Tron, Breach), Midrange/Control (Junk, Jund, Tokens, Hatebears/DnT, Jeskai, Bant Eldrazi), fast aggro (Infect, Affinity, Burn, Merfolk, Dredge (not so much)) and little bit of combo (Abzan Company, Ad Nauseam).
I'm considering grave hate (not sure which one), Thoughtseize and Surgical Extraction. Other ideas are Spellskite, Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet and Chandra, Torch of Defiance.
What are your thoughts? Which card could hit a lot of decks and raise my percentages especially against my weak matchups?
Man to tell you the truth in a meta like that I would just run 4x Blood Moon in the side. It shuts off at least 7 of the decks you mentioned, and is actually hilarious against Burn.
Blood mooning a burn player is SUPER fun, i tell ya. Nothing beats stabilizing at 2 life and beating in the air for 3 while Young pyro & co hold the fort. Opponent dies slowly and painfully, then shows you a hand of Boros Charm, Boros Charm, Atarka's Command, Path to Exile. Awwwww.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Whats a good sideboard card against Grixis delver?
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm actively maintaining a comprehensive article to help explain to new cube players how some complex vintage level cards work in a cube environment. Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Turning off our graveyard hurts. Delve is hurt, thought scour is just draw, snappy and k command are less effective. I'm also hurt by well timed dispels it seems.
I need a little help here
my meta is creatures heavy stompy, elves, some variations of tokens, company decks, 1 or 2 controls (esper and jeskai), rg ponza.
I wonder what build is better there, with young pyromancer and probes ou clique and more counters.
thanks and sorry for my baaad english.
Grixis Delver RBU
Abzan BGW
Legacy
Elves GB
Abzan Deathblade BGW
While we're on the subject of lists with Pyro and Probe, here's one that has performed excellently for me in testing:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
3 Young Pyromancer
Instants (19)
2 Electrolyze
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Mana Leak
1 Murderous Cut
2 Spell Snare
2 Terminate
4 Thought Scour
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Serum Visions
Lands (19)
1 Blood Crypt
1 Darkslick Shores
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Spirebluff Canal
2 Steam Vents
1 Swamp
2 Watery Grave
2 Collective Brutality
2 Countersquall
1 Desolate Lighthouse
2 Dispel
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Painful Truths
2 Rakdos Charm
2 Surgical Extraction
I haven't sided in Truths much, but I'll hold on to it until I face BGX more extensively. They could easily be Blood Moons, though I think I'd tweak the manabase a tad if they were.
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
I'm curious regarding your experiences with Blood Moon, as your manabase is even more R heavy than mine - has it resulted in awkwardness on your end?
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
thanks man, I really enjoy this list and I'll play that.
Grixis Delver RBU
Abzan BGW
Legacy
Elves GB
Abzan Deathblade BGW
I've got most of the pieces for Grixis Delver except for Snappy, which I plan to buy when it gets reprinted on MM2017. In the meantime, my local magic community is actually ok with a couple of proxies and I will certainly try it in order to get some practice with the full deck. However, it would also be nice to go to a sanctioned event every once in a while in Grixis colors. Is it possible to convert Grixis Delver into a more tempo-oriented deck with Swiftspears? The Primer talks about her as a budget option but I couldn't find a decklist. Note that I've been collecting UR staples for a while, so I have most of the stuff ranging from Forked Bolt to Twisted Image, Electrolyze or Grim Lavamancer.
This is my current decklist, usually proxying Swiftspears as Snappys. Any comments are much appreciated! Manabase, spell choices, sideboard, you name it. I'm personally not too sold on Fulminator Mages. I'm a divided Grixis Delver player, as I love my Young Ps and also love my counterspells. Overall, I feel like this list is somewhere in between Jones and Overturf.
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
3 Spirebluff Canal
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
Creatures (14)
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Young Pyromancer
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Serum Visions
4 Thought Scour
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Kolaghan's Command
3 Terminate
1 Dreadbore
3 Mana Leak
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Remand
2 Dispel
2 Countersquall
2 Magma Spray
1 Dreadbore
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Extirpate
1 Rakdos Charm
3 Fulminator Mage
BUR Grixis Death's Shadow/Control BUR & WBC Eldrazi & Taxes WBC
EDH:
UG Edric, Spymaster of Goodstuff UG
If you want to see a decent snapcasterless deck check out the ur delver video Reid Duke just put up on channelfireball. I'd link it, but for some reason the site won't pop up for me right now.
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
Legacy: Merfolk U; Shadow UB; Eldrazi Stompy C
Pauper: Delver U
Vintage: Merfolk U
Primers:
lol I had the same thing 4 lingering souls and 2 flashback against an esper twix list but I only resolved 1 AV and won that match. I find AV is kind of a "counter" to linger souls in the grindy department and the more I play against souls I tend to find AV great against it and I'm less scared of souls than I used to be. Even just bolting one souls token is good enough to negate its value as 1 damage a turn is pretty weak compared to a grizzly bear.
Extirpate vs surgical they're both similar but different enough to not be strictly better than each other. I'd say extirpate is more powerful with the broken split second ability but surgical has a slight edge against dredge as early as turn 0 on the draw which makes it very important with dredge at T1. Extirpate is better against combo though. Funny story against dredge after I lost game 1, I had a hand with extirpate but no black mana which I kept, but didnt draw my first black source until turn 3. I lost that game, but if extirpate was surgical extraction in that scenario, I'm pretty sure I would of won that game.
On a different note, should I switch the EE in my board for another skite or stratocaster given that there is alot of infect (and a uw taxes guy I'm always up against) with no boggles to be seen?
Primers
4C Walkers
Decklist - Matt Vernon's Grixis Delver
I had one question that I wanted to pose was how has Collective Brutality been performing for you guys, and given the current meta do you think it deserves a mainboard slot, sideboard slot, or some sort of split?
If I don't have all the cards to mess with Spirits this week, I will be testing Brutality in the main. It is very flexible, and actually helps fuel our delve spells if we escalate it.
Is anyone playing with Blood Moon in the main or does it put too much of a strain on our mana base?
Collective Brutality get rid of some main spells that our opponent controls and we can get value of dead cards so i think that one main deck is fair enough.
I am new to modern as well as to Grixis Delver and I've learned a ton from this primer as well as from watching people play the deck but I do still have a general deck building question. Electrolyze or Forked bolt? One draws you a card and the other can be cast for 1/3 the cost. Which do you prefer and why?
Also, I like Electrolyze over Forked Bolt just because even when it's dead, it let's you cycle it while burning to the face.
1x Blood Crypt
2x Bloodstained Mire
2x Island
1x Mountain
4x Polluted Delta
4x Scalding Tarn
2x Spirebluff Canal
1x Steam Vents
1x Swamp
2x Watery Grave
Instant (20)
1x Countersquall
2x Kolaghan's Command
4x Lightning Bolt
3x Mana Leak
3x Spell Snare
3x Terminate
4x Thought Scour
1x Gurmag Angler
4x Snapcaster Mage
3x Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1x Vendilion Clique
Sorcery (7)
2x Collective Brutality
1x Dreadbore
4x Serum Visions
2x Ancestral Vision
1x Anger of the Gods
2x Countersquall
2x Engineered Explosives
3x Fulminator Mage
1x Izzet Staticaster
2x Magma Spray
2x Surgical Extraction
Man to tell you the truth in a meta like that I would just run 4x Blood Moon in the side. It shuts off at least 7 of the decks you mentioned, and is actually hilarious against Burn.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Vintage Cube Cards Explained
Here are some other articles I've written about fine tuning your cube:
1. Minimum Archetype Support
2. Improving Green Archetypes
3. Improving White Archetypes
4. Matchup Analysis
5. Cube Combos (Work in Progress)
Draft my Cube - https://cubecobra.com/cube/overview/d8i
Modern
URB Grixis Delver
GWB Abzan Company
RWB Mardu Burn
WB Martyr Proc