I see you play 0 PtE in the board. Why choose for that in the current meta?
How did two Viscera ran for you. I my guess, seer is the worst card in the deck tho. I was thinking about including Anafenza to, multiple reasons. When vizier gets surgicaled you still have a out and it is a instant win with the life combo.
I was on 2 seer for a long time, but I cut to 1. It's just a bit bad theese days. And 1 is enough anyway in most cases.
I dislike fiend hunter. In all the matchups you want it, it dies too easily. I'd rather have Banewhip Punisher (Big game hunter is also viable, but cannot be maindeck imo)
@Arkmer, Moneymakermich:
Fiend Hunter didn't really come up much in that tournament, aparat from "blinking" a Witness once vs Lantern in the trial to get me back a Company. So far He's been alright, not great, not horrible. I like having him, just in case I absolutely need to get rid of an Ooze or somesuch for a turn or two. Really more of a tempo play than anything else, I feel, but often a worthwhile one.
@Momsie:
Realistically, I just wanted more creatures in the board, and Path didn't seem necessary anymore. I tested 3 and 0 vs DSJ a fair bit and didn't feel that much of a difference. Sometimes it cuts their recursion, but that's usually not the issue for me in that matchup. Decay/Pulse are useful in many more ways than Path - additional answers to Cage, RiP, Walkers, etc. as well as good enough to kill Shadows and Goyfs. No Eldrazi, but so far that MU feels more focused on other things than "can I kill your Reality Smasher".
I personally really like the second Seer. Higher chance of an early Finks combo, disrupting Path if we so choose, and generally just a lot of potential value from the scry ability. It's a creature people don't want around for too long, so they might even waste removal on it way before it's actually needed, just to be safe. I can see the reasoning for running only 1, but I've always been happy with the 2.
As spankxz said, Tidehollow doesn't feel great against Control (or DS, but I wouldn't bring him there either way). Having a non-temporary answer to Verdict, Past in Flames or the likes feels good, and there are't that many things it doesn't take that I would want it to take.
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"I can call an army to my side in the blink of an eye. Best not blink."
- Yeva, Nature's Herald
This is gonna sound condescending probably but you should get canopies to play this deck.
Main downside to entity is no trample but it's got a ton of upside
Well there's no doubt that canopy is a great card here, however I just can't bring myself to drop the same kind of money on 2-3 of them that I would a goyf or lilli when I already don't own playsets of those. It's a card that's only played in a few decks (this, hatebears/d&t, boggles), and I'm sure it'll get reprinted (soonish?) and lose a ton of value instantly. And I've done well without them... But it does force me to play the deck a little differently than others who have canopies.
A few things I've learned about the deck include:
- you need to focus on mana advantage (it's how we get ahead as well as gain value from our numerous mana sinks), meaning I mull 7 card hands against an unknown opponent unless I have at least 2 lands and a dork
- similarly, outside of dork-heavy hands, I need to hit my first 3 land-drops and preferably first 4, which means witness to re-buy a fetch is a good play
- you stand a chance in games you flood out in, and virtually no chance when you get mana screwed - this appears to be true of virtually every matchup
- we're faster than basically every deck in the meta, so just keep throwing dorks and combo pieces out there and threaten combo, make your opponent answer them rather than advancing their own gamelan (rather than look for slow coco hands or trying to be the midrange/control deck in the matchups)
It's reasonable to hold out but don't expect them to get cheap, they see play in legacy too and the card has a lot of cache. I got in at 40-ish on the normals and 85 avg on the expeditions and I own 7 of the damn things...and still not selling them because I play them in 2 decks and have another that should have some in it.
- you stand a chance in games you flood out in, and virtually no chance when you get mana screwed - this appears to be true of virtually every matchup
This point is one I have been trying to get across for a long time and no one believes me and just keeps jamming 22 lands and cutting dorks. I've seen lists down to 5 mana dorks. Stumbling on lands at 3 (total mana) is the literal worst thing that can ever happen to this deck and it happens occasionally to me at 8 dorks and 23 lands.
Interestingly people cut flood insurance cards (which we still need!) in order to "have more action," so things like cutting to 2 gavony township very much confuse me. You're still in danger of flooding with 32 mana sources (22 lands 10 dorks) so you want as many townships as you can get!
The difference in flooding between 33 mana sources (23 lands/10 dorks) and 32 lands (22 lands/10 dorks) is actually that the first list has 3-4 townships so is vastly less likely to be punished by flooding
I've noticed some lists running the cycling dual (Scattered Groves) from Amonkhet; while I can get behind cycling with infinite mana, is having the option to not sandbag a dual by shocking yourself worth the extra versatility?
Also, and Im sorry if this is not the right deck for this card, but what about Bontu's Last Reckoning in the sideboard for heavy Aggro-Combo matchups (i.e. things like Affinity)? Seems better than Pontiff, especially if they blow out their whole hand before the board wipe.
I believe the cycling duals would be pretty good if:
-you were on 4 ralliers
-you played them as your 1-drops, so a full 4, and only 4 mana dorks + 1 viscera seer
-there was a GB one you could use. Might be better in Naya where you have a GR one to use too. I'd play a 3/1 split.
-the metagame was slow enough to allow this kind of durdling (which does happen, especially regionally)
Just a singleton seems wrong until you've maxed out on canopies I think.
---------------------------------------------
The only way this deck reliably makes BB is with a bird, so trading all your creatures and lands for a turn for a wipe is terrible. You'd much rather play pontiff and not wipe yourself.
Fiery Justice is a huge upgrade to those matchups and one of the reasons I like red, but it is good because it doesn't eat your own dudes.
Went 3-0 at a casual meet up last night (just to reiterate, I am running GBW splashing red for Kessig and don't run Finks combo).
Results:
Vs Affinity 2-1
Vs Dredge 2-0
Vs Affinity 2-0
I know I've said it before but having 1-2 KotR out early means the beat down plan is definitely viable. She overperformed in every match up. Especially tutoring for Kessig and Ghost Quarter.
Favourite play of the night - vs Affinity, after sideboarding, stuck a Kataki out on Turn 2. Played a ghost quarter turn 3, destroyed inkmoth nexus, returned it to my hand with Witness and repeated the following turn. Great way to clear the board of etched champions and all their other cheap stuff.
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Cheeri0s is the breakfast of championsWRU Everyone loves an angry mobRWG Why so Bloo?RU
I run a very similar list @Pathrogas (-1 viscera, -1 rhonas, -1 anafenza +3 Renegade Rallier). Went 3-0-1 today (split the last one).
I'd be interested in knowing how you guys sideboard in the most common MU's
Is it correct to shave dorks against GDS and DSJ ?
In which MU's should I shave the ralliers/witnesses?
I usually shave 1-2 dorks vs. DSJ/Grixis depending on the number of sweepers I expect post board, but I don't think it's right to abandon the go-wide plan with an aggressive curve. Cutting 1-drops means cutting your ability to township, and township dominates that game.
I would board out 2 chords, 1-2 dorks, and any bad silver bullets, for removal spells and such. You can also board down 1-2 viziers. I don't think it's' ever right to cut druids but some people do.
In your sideboard, pharika, ooze, rhonas, big game hunter, voice, tracker, and all 4 removal spells are potential bring-ins. You should cut the Rhonas for forge tender though.
Honestly, you do not need more than one kill condition. I do not know why people insist on running 2. More than 1 kill con should be more duskwatch recruiters or more combo protection.
I've been really unimpressed with forge tender lately. The only match where he's great is burn, and there are better cards for burn. I realize it's brought in against anger, but Selfless Spirit is better overall, and I've seen an increse in Flaying tendrils from DSJ.
I think I'll test an Auriok Champion instead, as it's great against burn and also against GDS (which I meet very often).
Playing wolf run helps the uw control matchup a lot; it's way better than gavony in top deck mode due to making every dude an instant threat, and each time they path one of your dudes the ramp makes subsequent activations better. Where wolf run falls flat sometimes is that its mana hungry and slow when your have to deal 10+ dmg - fortunately control decks give you lots of time!
My current approach to DS is to try to lower the curve some and add more value - I side out chords for paths and viziers for value creatures (ie Fink's).
Speaking of that though, does anyone have a suggestion about 2 or 3 drops in Naya that add value that aren't graveyard-based? I'm looking to supplement witness and sb Fink's and replace tireless tracker (which is very hit and miss). Ideally this creature would have 3+ toughness to avoid flaying tendrils.
19 lands... Justified by AEther Vials? That's really not where we want to be. Vial slows us down because it needs to tick up and starts a turn behind. You can't drop Druid T2 with Vial and you're never going to T3 Company; the build almost entirely forgets the two most important timed plays in the deck.
4 lands for 4 vials isn't gaining anything anyway.
First post here but I have been playing the CoCo/Druid/Vizier deck for a few months now and faced off against this one a recently. He was a turn or two faster both games on the back of Vial and used E. Evolution to cherry pick his next creatures rather than hope to get a good Chord hit. It worked well for him...
I'm very interested in trying this list out, but as several have already pointed out, some of the sideboard options seem... questionable. Definitely switching Rhox War Monk and Cuastic Caterpilar for starters.
I'm thinking of trying 20 lands though, 19 just seems like so few.
I can get behind Aether Vial: ticking up to two, Vialing in Druid eot on an opponent's turn, then playing/vialing Vizier on your turn seems like a good way to save Druid from removal sorceries while still threatening combo.
It basically gives Druid and Vizier flash and pays for their mana cost after two turns. Closest thing to that is Aluren in Legacy, which, as a note, costs 4 mana compared to Vial's 1 generic and 2 turn build up.
I'd never play aether vial and eldritch evolution in the same deck in this format. Talk about begging to just get wrecked by discard. And God forbid someone kolaghan's commands you.
I can get behind Aether Vial: ticking up to two, Vialing in Druid eot on an opponent's turn, then playing/vialing Vizier on your turn seems like a good way to save Druid from removal sorceries while still threatening combo.
It basically gives Druid and Vizier flash and pays for their mana cost after two turns. Closest thing to that is Aluren in Legacy, which, as a note, costs 4 mana compared to Vial's 1 generic and 2 turn build up.
If you're doing that then why not just merge this deck with GW Hatebears? I've thought about it and the added bonus of Leonin Arbiter paired with Knight of the Reliquary and Ramunap Excavator will do some serious work with Ghost Quarter. That however is a completely different deck and merging the two different strategies makes for an overall worse game plan.
There have been a few vial decks which have ad success, but overall the results show that Chord + Company are the way to go.
How did two Viscera ran for you. I my guess, seer is the worst card in the deck tho. I was thinking about including Anafenza to, multiple reasons. When vizier gets surgicaled you still have a out and it is a instant win with the life combo.
Sin Collector over Tidehollow?
I dislike fiend hunter. In all the matchups you want it, it dies too easily. I'd rather have Banewhip Punisher (Big game hunter is also viable, but cannot be maindeck imo)
Fiend Hunter didn't really come up much in that tournament, aparat from "blinking" a Witness once vs Lantern in the trial to get me back a Company. So far He's been alright, not great, not horrible. I like having him, just in case I absolutely need to get rid of an Ooze or somesuch for a turn or two. Really more of a tempo play than anything else, I feel, but often a worthwhile one.
@Momsie:
Realistically, I just wanted more creatures in the board, and Path didn't seem necessary anymore. I tested 3 and 0 vs DSJ a fair bit and didn't feel that much of a difference. Sometimes it cuts their recursion, but that's usually not the issue for me in that matchup. Decay/Pulse are useful in many more ways than Path - additional answers to Cage, RiP, Walkers, etc. as well as good enough to kill Shadows and Goyfs. No Eldrazi, but so far that MU feels more focused on other things than "can I kill your Reality Smasher".
I personally really like the second Seer. Higher chance of an early Finks combo, disrupting Path if we so choose, and generally just a lot of potential value from the scry ability. It's a creature people don't want around for too long, so they might even waste removal on it way before it's actually needed, just to be safe. I can see the reasoning for running only 1, but I've always been happy with the 2.
As spankxz said, Tidehollow doesn't feel great against Control (or DS, but I wouldn't bring him there either way). Having a non-temporary answer to Verdict, Past in Flames or the likes feels good, and there are't that many things it doesn't take that I would want it to take.
- Yeva, Nature's Herald
Abzan Toolbox Primer
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GWBUGifts RockUBWG
Well there's no doubt that canopy is a great card here, however I just can't bring myself to drop the same kind of money on 2-3 of them that I would a goyf or lilli when I already don't own playsets of those. It's a card that's only played in a few decks (this, hatebears/d&t, boggles), and I'm sure it'll get reprinted (soonish?) and lose a ton of value instantly. And I've done well without them... But it does force me to play the deck a little differently than others who have canopies.
A few things I've learned about the deck include:
- you need to focus on mana advantage (it's how we get ahead as well as gain value from our numerous mana sinks), meaning I mull 7 card hands against an unknown opponent unless I have at least 2 lands and a dork
- similarly, outside of dork-heavy hands, I need to hit my first 3 land-drops and preferably first 4, which means witness to re-buy a fetch is a good play
- you stand a chance in games you flood out in, and virtually no chance when you get mana screwed - this appears to be true of virtually every matchup
- we're faster than basically every deck in the meta, so just keep throwing dorks and combo pieces out there and threaten combo, make your opponent answer them rather than advancing their own gamelan (rather than look for slow coco hands or trying to be the midrange/control deck in the matchups)
This point is one I have been trying to get across for a long time and no one believes me and just keeps jamming 22 lands and cutting dorks. I've seen lists down to 5 mana dorks. Stumbling on lands at 3 (total mana) is the literal worst thing that can ever happen to this deck and it happens occasionally to me at 8 dorks and 23 lands.
Interestingly people cut flood insurance cards (which we still need!) in order to "have more action," so things like cutting to 2 gavony township very much confuse me. You're still in danger of flooding with 32 mana sources (22 lands 10 dorks) so you want as many townships as you can get!
The difference in flooding between 33 mana sources (23 lands/10 dorks) and 32 lands (22 lands/10 dorks) is actually that the first list has 3-4 townships so is vastly less likely to be punished by flooding
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Also, and Im sorry if this is not the right deck for this card, but what about Bontu's Last Reckoning in the sideboard for heavy Aggro-Combo matchups (i.e. things like Affinity)? Seems better than Pontiff, especially if they blow out their whole hand before the board wipe.
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-you were on 4 ralliers
-you played them as your 1-drops, so a full 4, and only 4 mana dorks + 1 viscera seer
-there was a GB one you could use. Might be better in Naya where you have a GR one to use too. I'd play a 3/1 split.
-the metagame was slow enough to allow this kind of durdling (which does happen, especially regionally)
Just a singleton seems wrong until you've maxed out on canopies I think.
---------------------------------------------
The only way this deck reliably makes BB is with a bird, so trading all your creatures and lands for a turn for a wipe is terrible. You'd much rather play pontiff and not wipe yourself.
Fiery Justice is a huge upgrade to those matchups and one of the reasons I like red, but it is good because it doesn't eat your own dudes.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Results:
Vs Affinity 2-1
Vs Dredge 2-0
Vs Affinity 2-0
I know I've said it before but having 1-2 KotR out early means the beat down plan is definitely viable. She overperformed in every match up. Especially tutoring for Kessig and Ghost Quarter.
Favourite play of the night - vs Affinity, after sideboarding, stuck a Kataki out on Turn 2. Played a ghost quarter turn 3, destroyed inkmoth nexus, returned it to my hand with Witness and repeated the following turn. Great way to clear the board of etched champions and all their other cheap stuff.
Everyone loves an angry mob RWG
Why so Bloo? RU
I'd be interested in knowing how you guys sideboard in the most common MU's
Is it correct to shave dorks against GDS and DSJ ?
In which MU's should I shave the ralliers/witnesses?
My sideboard (needs some working, I'm unsure what to shave so I can put Burrenton forge tender):
1x Pharika, God of Affliction
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Eidolon of Rhetoric
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Rhonas the Indomitable
1x Selfless Spirit
1x Big Game Hunter
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Voice of Resurgence
1x Kataki, War's Wage
1x Tireless Tracker
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Path to Exile
I would board out 2 chords, 1-2 dorks, and any bad silver bullets, for removal spells and such. You can also board down 1-2 viziers. I don't think it's' ever right to cut druids but some people do.
In your sideboard, pharika, ooze, rhonas, big game hunter, voice, tracker, and all 4 removal spells are potential bring-ins. You should cut the Rhonas for forge tender though.
Honestly, you do not need more than one kill condition. I do not know why people insist on running 2. More than 1 kill con should be more duskwatch recruiters or more combo protection.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
I think I'll test an Auriok Champion instead, as it's great against burn and also against GDS (which I meet very often).
My current approach to DS is to try to lower the curve some and add more value - I side out chords for paths and viziers for value creatures (ie Fink's).
Speaking of that though, does anyone have a suggestion about 2 or 3 drops in Naya that add value that aren't graveyard-based? I'm looking to supplement witness and sb Fink's and replace tireless tracker (which is very hit and miss). Ideally this creature would have 3+ toughness to avoid flaying tendrils.
Elvish visionary is the only real other option and it's not good. There is a serious shortage of good rw or rg value creatures. Seriously try leap.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
19 lands... Justified by AEther Vials? That's really not where we want to be. Vial slows us down because it needs to tick up and starts a turn behind. You can't drop Druid T2 with Vial and you're never going to T3 Company; the build almost entirely forgets the two most important timed plays in the deck.
4 lands for 4 vials isn't gaining anything anyway.
"Reveal a Dragon"
First post here but I have been playing the CoCo/Druid/Vizier deck for a few months now and faced off against this one a recently. He was a turn or two faster both games on the back of Vial and used E. Evolution to cherry pick his next creatures rather than hope to get a good Chord hit. It worked well for him...
also the deck's originator, geekgardner, has been streaming, you can see this videos here: https://www.twitch.tv/kgchandler/videos/all
I'm very interested in trying this list out, but as several have already pointed out, some of the sideboard options seem... questionable. Definitely switching Rhox War Monk and Cuastic Caterpilar for starters.
I'm thinking of trying 20 lands though, 19 just seems like so few.
It basically gives Druid and Vizier flash and pays for their mana cost after two turns. Closest thing to that is Aluren in Legacy, which, as a note, costs 4 mana compared to Vial's 1 generic and 2 turn build up.
Avatar and Signature by XenoNinja via Heroes of the Plane Studios
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
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StaffThere have been a few vial decks which have ad success, but overall the results show that Chord + Company are the way to go.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge