MTG Salvation

My current list actually runs a 1/1 split and I haven't had reasons to complain yet, they have rather complemented each other. I felt the need to include the Skite after testing and getting hit vs etron by a dismember and a spatial contortion with a selfless spirit out and the next match playing vs dredge with darkblast. I'm really enjoying a naya list right now, having access to the 3/4 kessig wolf run manabase lets you trim on the duskwatches which are rather underwhelming while mantaining a high pay off count.

I could get real spicy and play Saffi Eriksdotter like I mentioned previously in the thread. Skite is probably better though.

Quote from Shwivle »

My current list actually runs a 1/1 split and I haven't had reasons to complain yet, they have rather complemented each other. I felt the need to include the Skite after testing and getting hit vs etron by a dismember and a spatial contortion with a selfless spirit out and the next match playing vs dredge with darkblast. I'm really enjoying a naya list right now, having access to the 3/4 kessig wolf run manabase lets you trim on the duskwatches which are rather underwhelming while mantaining a high pay off count.

What's your naya list looking like these days?

I feel that nowadays our worst common MU's are Grixis DS and Dredge so my MD was slightly geared towards beating DS and the SB has some additional slots with Dredge in mind which incidentally also hit Storm/Living End and the like. While I love Eternal Witness, I'm currently trying one less because it does tend to be slow and clog up your hand if drawn in certain MU's, Ralliers are a much more efficient way to recur a combo piece.

I know the Voices don't contribute to the main game plan but besides the -1 Witness this list still maxes out on the combo pieces with 5 pay offs. I managed to include all the MD bullets I felt were necessary so I turned to Voice, besides being by far the best target for Rallier when you're going for value, it fills a void I felt when playing this variant without Finks which was having a relevant recurring board presence. Rallier by itself simply does not fill that roll for me since, without Voice, he will mostly only be recurring combo pieces/dorks. Unfortunately besides Scooze imo there are no maindeck worthy bullets which help our more questionable MU's or else I'd include them, the other considerations would be moving the Magus to the MD but with Kessig Wolf Run being so relevant I want to keep him in the SB, or considering something from Tracker/Qasali/Fiend Hunter/Lavamancer/Mirran Crusader while going up to 4 Witness again, but I've been pretty satisfied with this configuration which tries to make the most out of the 4 Rallier, both value and combo wise. Maybe I've been running into too many DS, hatebears, midrange/control decks and the like

Notable things from the SB would be the absence of value cards since I feel the MD Voices are mostly enough, no Linvala and Kataki which I dropped due to Fiery Justice being solid in these creature MU's, and the inclusion of non creature based GY hate which is just much more efficient against Dredge and other GY based strategies. If this were an Abzan build I'd definitely try out Nihil Spellbombs since they're really solid with Rallier but I decided to give Wheel and Surgical a try and they have been stellar when needed, although Wheel must crucially enter the battlefield early so I've been wondering if going up to 3 and dropping Surgical is just not better if I'm going this route.

That looks like a really solid list. Voices definitely a metagame call I think.

Few quick questions for you:
1) Burn matchup been OK with just one missionary and tender?
2) Has the storm matchup been OK without a second piece of hate?
3) Has fiery justice been good for you? It's been almost uniformly great for me, but interested in your take.
4) Considered trying a stingscourger over the lightcaster since you've got all those paths?
5) What's your performance been like overall?

In what matchups will we want entity vs what matchups for rhonas? Thanks

Quote from mtgsnijepi »

In what matchups will we want entity vs what matchups for rhonas? Thanks

In general Rhonas is better vs. decks with hard removal such as terminate/push, and Entity is better vs. decks with limited or no removal (combo, big mana). Similarly in games we want to close the game fast entity is better and games we would rather grind out rhonas is better (midrange/control = rhonas, combo/burn/big mana = entity).

I have found entity to be the stronger card overall for my tastes -- lots of out of nowhere victories.

Entity is also a strict hate card vs. living end and to a lesser extent merfolk (Lord of Atlantis is dangerously symmetrical).

Hey guys, I'm new with the combo, in all this week I was searching a good list for me. In my mind the Abzan or Bant variation are the best option. I know that we need combo as fast as possible, but in most of my tries online, If you don't have the combo, you don't have nothing more besides draw and draw. With Bant we have some tools like Queller, Reflector, Meddling, etc. With Abzan we have the infinite life combo.
I'm waiting the rest of my cards to make the paper Bant version, I really like that Kevin Chew's list with Knightfall stuff mixed. Until there, I will try a GW build.

In my LGS I can't focus in the Kessig style, tons of BGx and UWx, and Kessig target just one creature, Gavony seems a better option.
In my opinion just one Ballist is to risk, if you draw and the opponent cast a TKS you lost a lot of value, so maybe one Rhonas too should be intersting, It os another win con that complete the Ballist, against a Leyline for exemple.
In general, I'm needing help with the side out, all cards looks só good together...



Thoughts?
Also 2 Eldritch Evolution should help, no?

(Sorry the english, writing in the work)

Quote from Pokken »

That looks like a really solid list. Voices definitely a metagame call I think.
Few quick questions for you:
1) Burn matchup been OK with just one missionary and tender?
2) Has the storm matchup been OK without a second piece of hate?
3) Has fiery justice been good for you? It's been almost uniformly great for me, but interested in your take.
4) Considered trying a stingscourger over the lightcaster since you've got all those paths?
5) What's your performance been like overall?

Yeah they are definitely a metagame call, burn is a bit iffy but the Voices actually are a decent roadblock whereas the rest of our 1/2 drops can't reliably block guide/swiftspear, it's a MU I have to test more to see if the 2 SB slots are enough. I did follow your advice and gave Lone Missionary a try over Firewalker and with the 4x Rallier he seems like the right choice.

The Wheels help against Storm the main concern ends up being if they go the Empty the Warrens route which I've recently lost to actually. I've thought about adding a Canonist over the Surgical as well, it's definitely a slot I'm still debating over. I guess the current gameplan is to either go for the quick combo or land a Wheel to then buy time to Chord for Eidolon, even if Wheel doesn't add to the convoke.

I regularly play against Elves so they've been pretty insane for me Specifically against Grixis DS I actually much prefer crusader/devout/creature based hate since they dodge Stubborn Denial but with Path/Fiery Justice/CoCo something is bound to get through and I can't wait for the day I kill an Angler and 1/2 DS with it

I've never tested Stingscourger before, after seeing your list I thought about trying it as a bullet in the MD in the "removal" slot but ultimately didn't get to test it since I figured the SB removal is enough. It's definitely interesting against Delve threats and to trigger revolt, how has he been performing for you?

From the reps I've gotten in with this specific list I've been having positive results, the MD, besides making Grixis DS more even, still has the same dodgy MU's, but I feel there is no way to increase our win % without including any bullets I don't consider maindeckable like Eidolon/Magus, although I've been very impressed with Magus out of the board especially with having Burrenton/Skite/Selfless Spirit to protect him, so I might try out a second copy. I used to have Mirror Entity over Rhonas but since my GY hate increased in the SB hitting LE I feel like Rhonas fits better, more so since the Voice tokens often naturally activate him.

I basically lose a bit of flexibillity by not having access to other MD bullets but gain consistency when going the value route while also being lower to the ground with more 2 drops than usual. Most of my testing has been on Cockatrice meaning I sometimes play against fringe decks (8 rack/control for example) which our deck tends to handle well, but I usually request to play vs tier decks and, besides DS which is the most common deck by far, there is a lot of Storm/LE/E-Tron/Dredge/the mirror/hatebears running around, hence the increase in GY hate since I don't feel that comfortable in a combo heavy meta.

If I were to change anything MD at the moment it would be the inclusion of the 4th Witness and a 6th pay off but I then would have to remove all Voice since they only really shine in numbers, and add some value to the SB which would eat up SB slots, maybe I'll try to go down to 2 Voice but the idea of playing less than 3 doesn't really appeal to me. A card I desperately wanted to make work was Primal Command since its versatility hits exactly the spots I want in GY hate, a blow out against burn, a tutor/pay off, an out to a resolved Grafdigger's/piece of hate and even the Witness loop was alluring against big mana decks, but 5 mana is just a bit too much especially running 22 lands.

What about you, I see you've been brewing and testing alot, do you still feel the Naya version is the more competitive of the current lists? From my experience it's probably the best non-finks combo variant out there. How has the Grim Lavamancer been performing? He especially seems insane for the mirror, if I were to go up to 23 lands and add a third red source I reckon I'd at least give him a try since I love the little guy. Is your current list in the Sig still up to date or have you been making changes? Even with 4 Kessig Wolf Run I'd suggest you give Magus in the SB a try, even more so if you decide to add the Spellskite to the MD. Do you not feel like 8 1cc dorks + 23 lands is a bit of an overkill especially with the Gavony -> Kessig switch? Without Finks we don't really have any good 3 drops to deploy on turn 2 anyways, they contribute to a quicker CoCo/Chord but they're not really crucial since a turn 2 Druid still enables a Chord for 2 or CoCo by itself the next turn. I guess they are actually important if you want to turn 3 with Kessig Wolf Run consistently.

1) Stingscourger has been good. Bounced a few delve guys, but it puts in a lot of work vs. living end and eldrazi too. 2 is a very nice chord target number since we can hard cast it a lot if needed. It's too early to say if it's for sure the right card but it's been spectacular with renegade rallier. Play scourger, chump block with it, fetch and rally it back, etc.

2) I think your analysis of the voice thing is right. I won't run fewer than 3 of them. I'd maybe try a Myr Superion or something first.

3) Also think your analysis of the whole maindeck bullets thing is right. That's really the biggest problem with this new space is that we have far fewer slots for bullets if we want to remain competitive, and it's hard to pick the right ones. In general at this point I just try to fade the random jank decks and plan for BGx/Shadow/Living End/Eldrazi Tron/GW Tron/Storm/Mirror.

4) You're probably right that Magus is right to have in SB. I have seen an uptick of tron and will give it a try. Probably squeeze one in there this week.

5) Primal command -- it feels like it should be so good. Just turned out to be too expensive. I think about it lot. It's possible I should have tried harder with it. All I can say is that it rotted in my hand a lot and only got cast when I was winnin anyway.

6) My personal results, I think I am 14-3-1 or so in FNM matches recently. The deck has been running great.
Grim lavamancer has been above average but not crazy. When he performs it's great. Most of the time he dies on impact which is a lot to ask for a card that costs R to thoughtseize a removal spell 90% of the time. When he gets pathed I feel really good. Sometimes he runs away with the game. It's very flexible. Finishing off creatures you chump block is a very real use that comes up a lot with rallier (Rallier + Lavamancer can kill a smasher).

Weirdly wolf run has been better than township in a lot of games. I mean sometimes I could win those games by townshipping 3-4 times, but I've won a lot of games with wolf run off the top, crack for 9 in the air with a bird type stuff, whereas if I'd topdecked township it would take a turn or two longer.

I have definitely felt the pinch of not having creatures who are as good at rumbling as finks. I'm not sure what is right to do about it or if I really need to do anything.

With 1 CMC dork count I am more concerned with coco on turn 3 or chord for 2 on turn 3. That's the goal of all those dorks more than anything, be able to kill them when I untap on turn 4 with very high probability and turn 3 with decent probability.

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I am kind of on the fence. Personally I think the finks version is not good right now. I do not like how the GW/Naya versions are vulnerable to surgical, but finks version is in general much worse against grafdigger's cage and scavenging ooze which I find to be more serious gaps.

My current thinking is that kessig wolf run as a combo finisher is underexplored. Being able to play 23 lands with 4 combo pieces in the land slot gives the Naya build a crazy amount of flexibility in design -- we can fit more bullets and one of our combo pieces doesn't really get removed for the most part. I really like that we can deploy wolf run at any stage of the game and most decks can't do anything about it, unlike when we deploy a duskwatch recruiter and it gets pathed. If someone ghost quarters it and surgicals it, we just went up 2 cards and I don't care

However, there's something undeniably attractive about the sheer combo density of the Abzan build with finks and townships, but the GW builds are crazy lean and mean with 4 townships and 4 recruiters.

I am sticking with Naya until something changes my mind. None of the builds I am seeing out of the pros and writing circuit speak to me, mostly a lot of crazy nonsense like 1 canopy 2 township type stuff. The only build I would try other than mine is FeloniousCrap's GW with 4 townships.

The build in my sig is kept up to date, I usually make sideboard tweaks Friday afternoon before FNM.

Ooze is pretty matchup dependent. I happened to see a lot of bgx and snapcaster decks. I also tend to be all in on the combo in game 1 more often than in games 2 and 3, so I'm not as interested in having bullets in the main.
@Pokken Myr Superion seems interesting. I like that it can be rallier'd back and also turns on Rhonas without any help. The downsides being that it's occasionally uncastable and does nothing other than be really big.

Yar. I don't know if I'd do it myself, or advocate for it strongly, but the card has a lot going for it if you feel the need to rumble. It's likely stronger than goyf in a lot of situations--does good work blocking etched champion too.

So, I had another question for you to help crystallize my thinking on Finks-- as you look back at your matchups did you ever find yourself really wishing you were on the Finks build? Most especially did you draw ralliers and go "Man, I wish this was a finks and I could chord for viscera seer and combo out?" Or something along those lines.

There were a couple times where I could have combo'd if I were playing finks, but it wasn't very often. The one time I had druid get surgical'd I felt pretty confident I could just grind it out since he essentially was down a card by casting surgical. The thing that would sway me the most is that finks is quite good with township, but I really like how much pressure Rallier gives you versus removal.

I don't like the summoning sick and 1 toughness.. Dies to darkblast, push and basicly anything without getting any value.. Actiovation cost is also a bit too expensive.. I'd prefer Loaming shaman or 3 mana Anafenza.. Or even stonecloaker! (fun card)

So the saving grace of that card is that it's 1 CMC, as this deck often wants for another 1-drop. I'm not sure it's good enough to main deck though. My gut feeling is that the real dealbreaker there is that the activation cost is 2 CMC instead of 1. If it was B+{T} I think it might be playable, since the repeated card advantage is pretty good.

Generally don't think it does enough in this deck, but to each their own

So what about this new HOU card "Uncage the Menagerie" to tutor up Vizier of remedies and/or Devoted Druid and/or Duskwatch Recruiter and/or Scavenging Ooze and/or Selfless Spirit and/or Qasali Pridemage etc?

Quote from Clipper70 »

So what about this new HOU card "Uncage the Menagerie" to tutor up Vizier of remedies and/or Devoted Druid and/or Duskwatch Recruiter and/or Scavenging Ooze and/or Selfless Spirit and/or Qasali Pridemage etc?

I expect this will be the new goto sideboard card for grindy matchups. Searching for either Witness+rhonas+Finks (or witness+rallier+rhonas), or Vizier+druid, will be quite powerful.

The ability to also get like ooze+pridemage around cage is pretty stellar too.

It is really nice to have a sideboard card that just crushes control/midrange, though cheap counterspells (negate, stubborn denial, spell pierce) are still pretty rough to beat. Still a really good topdeck.

Note, I think it's still worse than leap for me personally because it can be rallied back and is cheaper, but I could see the appeal.

Edit: One interesting thing about this card is that if you untap with druid and a white source you can turn this card into the combo: x = 2 for recruiter + vizier. Then you win. That's better than chord by a lot. The ability to chord for 2 at instant speed end step is probably slightly stronger, but there are definite applications.

Additionally, being able to get druid+spellskite or druid+selfless spirit is a pretty strong play. Lots of potential here.

I will most likely playtest with 4 of these in board and swap 1-for-1 with chord and see how that works.

I'm sure you've already posted this earlier in the thread, but what's the plays/benefit with Leap? (Apologies for being dense) Struggling with my sideboard so considering other options.

Quote from Wesste »

I'm sure you've already posted this earlier in the thread, but what's the plays/benefit with Leap? (Apologies for being dense) Struggling with my sideboard so considering other options.

1) it can be rallied back if it dies or is discarded
2) it turns every creature removed into another creature for each G you have up, including exile protection or fizzling maelstrom pulses. requires some discipline to always keep that G up though, so best in slower matchups.
3) it acts as an almost combo piece with druid/vizier (as you can sac every excess dork and even the vizier and druid themselves and every green creature you hit to try to find recruiter or rhonas. most decks, it is essentially a combo piece.
4) low tempo card you can cast on-curve on 2 and then ride the rest of the game.
5) In Abzan it acts as a way to get a ton of value out of finks+vizier on board as well, even without infinite mana.

I believe it is one of the best sideboard cards for the death's shadow matchups where you will struggle to resolve a chord of calling, or snapcaster mage decks, jund, or death's shadow jund. Have tested extensively and win rate resolving a leap early vs. any control-ish deck is very high.

(To date I have lost 1/8 games where I resolved leap by turn 3).

Leap is really good against decks that play a lot of spot removal since it makes cards like bolt and push into 2-for-1's for you. It also acts as a insurance policy vs sweepers if you leave enough mana up.