Did you just feel like the extra damage taken from Canopy wasn't relevant?
Were you, or have you, previously played the Archangel/Feeder combo? I'd assume you don't like it for the same reasons you don't like Ballista, but something about casting T3 archangel just from druid is appealing.
There seems to be a lot of list volatility for now, what do you consider to be the flex slots? Tracker/Skite/Ooze/2nd duskwatch/3rd E-wit?
I personally have been testing and think that a one of walking ballista is a key part of the deck to allow for the instant win, with a lot of green mana, unless you already have ewitness chord going off, you will not be winning that turn if you can't cast anafenza, or don't already have here in play. ballista just makes it a final bang to the face and I think might mess with their sideboard strategy.
Has they might need to dedicate anti artifact. But I digress.
It seems like Fiend Hunter has no upside over Fairgrounds Warden in this archetype. Hunter's mana cost isn't too easy and the cases when we want to exile our own creature are so rare. Besides that, I like to have that effect in my 75.
On the topic about the extra finisher, time will tell but I'm pretty sure those who don't want Ballista / Rhonas will change their mind when they'll start losing games and matches because of that extra turn left to the opponent. Blighted Agent, Ugin, Ad Nauseam, I mean a few top tier archetypes can swing the game very easily, and don't care about infinite life or bolster triggers.
I don't quite see why a counter-argument has to be made about Ballista or Rhonas, actually Anafenza isn't needed either, and decks will win with and without those cards. It's fine to say a list is solid and move on.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
Not disputing, just looking for clarification/explanation on 2 Maelstrom Pulse sideboard, why 2 and what are expected targets? (Been playing Junk with just 1 for a long time). Would like to swap one for Abrupt Decay or another path.
One thing about Fiend Hunter (vs. Warden), mostly when Viscera Seer is down but also against aggro, can Fiend your own creature, especially off of CoCo, to protect a combo piece until you have it, and then have a creature your opponent does not want to block or remove. I did this probably 3x last year, and 2x it was very relevent.
- 14th place not even playing the Druid + Vizier, but has Athreos?
- 19th place with this spicy monstrosity... I don't think you can even call it Abzan Company...
- 21st place which is lightly playing Druid + Vizier.
I like the third list the most, but feel that it is overall unfocused and trying too many things for game 1. It looks like it worked out for him though so all power to him. That's one of the strengths of the deck, being flexible.
It seems like Fiend Hunter has no upside over Fairgrounds Warden in this archetype. Hunter's mana cost isn't too easy and the cases when we want to exile our own creature are so rare.
Despite the cost I still like Fiend Hunter because of the ability to sac him while his etb trigger is on the stack to permanently exile an opposing creature.
One thing about Fiend Hunter (vs. Warden), mostly when Viscera Seer is down but also against aggro, can Fiend your own creature, especially off of CoCo, to protect a combo piece until you have it, and then have a creature your opponent does not want to block or remove.
I'm inclined to agree. I honestly think the deck got a lot better with the new combo. It makes our bad matchups(valakut decks, tron, etc) a lot better because it's easier to assemble by Turn 3 without a mana dork even.
T1 literally anything
T2 devoted druid
T3 vizier OR chord for 2(3 lands+double tap druid) into win the game.
as opposed to needing the literal nut draw to do
turn 1 viscera seer
turn 2 anafenza/melira/vizier
turn 3 finks(have to have actual finks, cant chord for it turn 3 with these T1/2 plays
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Cards are game pieces, and should be treated as such, easily replaceable.
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
The new combo has really raised the stock of both Coco and eternal witness imho. Hitting a witness and combo piece is now game winning since you can immediately Coco again. Previously the mana required to abuse witness Coco was often an impediment.
I am starting from the 4 witness point because of this after seeing this play win a game against Tron -- t3 Coco hit witness and vizier untap with infinite mana, Coco into duskwatch and win.
Witness is just so much better at assembling this combo than the old one.
Got beat finally by Grafdigger's Cage, could not grind so well without Finks coming back, but Witness is even a big help there and wish I had more at the time. Had great fun turning Witness >> Rallier >> Voice after sacking voice (different match).
Anafenza is sick with Druid even without the combo.
Here's where I'm at with my understanding of what we want to be doing in the deck, feel free to disagree, it's kinda long, but I'm just putting it here so it's somewhere.
I want 4 druids because 1) I feel like it is unequivocally our best turn 2 play in the vast majority of situations and I want that to happen as often as possible. A turn 3 kill is rare in Modern, and being able to untap with druid on T3 is a huge threat all on it's own, as opponents learn how to respond, this will become a bolt-or-potentially-lose-the-game situation. 2) Untapping at any point in the game with a druid in play is a huge threat. This has to be the scariest 0/2 in Modern right now.
After dropping Ana, Rallier, and Saffi from the deck, I'm adding them back because they're all very good for several reasons. Firstly, I no longer view Ana as a counter-engine. She is that, sure, but more importantly, she's an infinite-bolster wincon. This is important because it means she isn't competing with Vizier for slots, she deserves one of her own. The ability to make all your dudes unreasonably large is the primary reason to play her at this point, and that alone makes her worth a slot. Rallier and Saffi are back because I've been bumping into a lot of control decks lately and more recursion is welcome. My primary concern in control seems to be just getting guys on board that give me multiple cards worth of value. And there's also the super-cute Rally/Saffi/Seer combo for infinite scry, having Ana allows us to turn that into infinite bolster as well.
I'm not sure what the right number of EWit and Vizier is right now. A large part of what this deck brings to the table is a value beatdown plan, and a 2/1 for 2 seems to die to a LOT of stuff right now. The same thing goes for the 3rd EWit but that card is obviously better in grindy MUs. The power of T3 goes way up when you add density to these slots, but our grinding value goes down significantly as well, and as I said, as opponents figure out how the new combo works, Druid on T2 is going to get a huge bulls-eye on its back. Right now, I'm on 3/3, but I'm far from sure that is where I want to be.
I had a decent discussion with a guy (and fellow AbzCo player) at my LGS about Walking Ballista in the deck and while he made some convincing arguments for why it is completely unnecessary to combo-win when you have infinite bolster available and can stack your deck and CoCo/Chord for whatever you want, so waiting a turn to actually kill your opponent isn't a concern at all, I still like it's ability to notably combo-win without touching the GY and do a bad Redcap impression when played for value. You don't get the recursion in the face of removal, but you still get to ping enemy creatures at will. Right now I am still running it, but I don't feel hugely committed to the card. It's good, but not necessary.
I guess that's it for now. I'm currently stuck at 61 cards, and need to find a slot to shave.
I ended up shaving the 2nd Noble and am trying out the crazy idea of running a Magus in the side, but I had an opponent immediately target him last night so that feels good for now. Everything else is at least semi-standard. Also thinking of going back up to 3 Gavony Township by swapping out the 2nd Marsh Flats, haven't pulled the trigger yet though.
So I don't want to rehash my entire post over in the DD combo thread but it went very well last night. Kessig Wolf run enabled a couple turn 3 kills. I never once missed kitchen finks and its vulnerability to every kind of hate, or the do-nothing viscera seers.
I did miss having Rhonas a couple times, but it never cost me a game (just a few turn 4 kills became turn 5).
My opinion at this point is cautious optimism that the Naya build is good. It has a lot going for it, including excellent sideboard cards and decent big mana matchups. Having extra combo pieces in the land slot is insanity.
I really, really liked having all 8 dorks. I think I curved dork into 3-drop in over half my games and the druids really taxed removal spells so that dorks generally survived, and when they didn't it was good for me.
The combination of Druid and Vizier means that you can achieve infinite green mana. This can be utilised with cards such as duskwatch recruiter so that you can draw and play (virtually) your entire deck of creatures. If you have rhonas the indomitable you can use the mana to pump one of your dudes and attack (likely to be your turn 1 drop or Druid as vizier and all the creatures you played on turn 3 will have summoning sickness). Or, you use chord of calling to tutor up a Or, you use Duskwatch to filter your library until you draw walking ballista, which with infinite mana can deal infinite damage to your opponent.
Hopefully that clarifies it. Obviously if anyone else is achieving it in a different way feel free to correct me
The combination of Druid and Vizier means that you can achieve infinite green mana. This can be utilised with cards such as duskwatch recruiter so that you can draw and play (virtually) your entire deck of creatures. If you have rhonas the indomitable you can use the mana to pump one of your dudes and attack (likely to be your turn 1 drop or Druid as vizier and all the creatures you played on turn 3 will have summoning sickness). Or, you use chord of calling to tutor up a walking ballista, which with infinite mana can deal infinite damage to your opponent.
Hopefully that clarifies it. Obviously if anyone else is achieving it in a different way feel free to correct me
This is one of the reasons Walking Ballista isn't optimal. It just dies off of a Chord or Company. It can also be countered and stuff, where as if the opponent counters your Chord of Calling it doesn't get rid of your win-con (assuming you are out of Eternal Witnesses).
T1 fetch tapped stomping ground
t2 land, fetch temple garden, druid
T3 tap druid + garden for vizier, play kessig wolf run, kill with stomping ground + infinite green
T1 fetch temple garden birds
t2 land, druid, hierarch
t3 chord for vizier, chord for recruiter, duskwatch scry mirror entity to the top and cast coco
(there were many lines here but I felt like it was a good time to practice explaining infinite duskwatch scry to set up cocos -- could have also just grabbed a witness and got chord. This hand was also insanely perfect with perfect topdecks so not that common)
t1 horizon canopy, birds
t2 untapped temple garden, birds, druid
t3 slayers' stronghold, cast vizier, cast mirror entity, swing for lethal with birds (over blockers)
(remembered another one v. affinity:)
t1 fetch shock birds, bird dies to galvanic blast
t2 land druid
t3 vizier, play wolf run, kill with druid
But there have been several more just ones I remember most of the plays for. By far most awkward thing about sequencing t3 kills is ensuring colors for a second white creature or a wolf run activation. This is one of the things that has me leaning toward playing a Rhonas in addition to (or instead of) mirror entity since it makes colors easier when killing, but Mirror entity has just enabled too many non-combo kills.
Also if you want to t3 kill play 4 witnesses. It'll seriously up your likelihood as sometimes you have to chord for your combo piece and having a witness in hand makes that graveyard chord a kill shot (as if you had another chord).
T4 kills are vastly more consistent since a t3 coco has pretty high reliability of assembling the combo.
Pokken your list isn't paying anything R in the maindeck except for Kessig Wolf Run it seems. I like that it is super focused on the combo, but I have to ask why not run a single Stomping Ground in a normal Abzan Company list alongside the normal ~2 B/x sources. Drop the Slayers' Stronghold, and have a 2/2 split of Gavony Township and Kessig Wolf Run. This means you get the R splash, but can still play the arguably more powerful black sideboard cards. The only Black card the maindeck needs is a single Viscera Seer at this point in case you want to combo off one of those 2-3 ways. I feel there is a happy medium somewhere in there. Yes the mana is stretched, but it will give you access to better cards post-board.
@Pokken
built your list, it´s very fast if you can force the combo through. Not quite sure if I like it more than having a discard suite in my sideboard. Am I crazy for hating Coco the more I play the deck? It really stifles the way we build our deck, and when it whiffs it´s feelsbad. I´m starting to think I want to add discard or removal main and forget about Coco.
I definitely am with you in some respects. But by the same token Coco is what makes us so blazing fast and consistent that we can beat Scapeshift and Tron.
I don't honestly miss the discard at this point. I think modern at this point is loaded full of decks that are strong against discard, and we're better served playing anti-hate-hate (such as selfless spirit, forge tender, rec sage, etc.). I never really cared for Pulse/Decay.
The trade we make of not being as good against spell based combo is the ability to race them. And we can still play Eidolon and canonist.
Pokken your list isn't paying anything R in the maindeck except for Kessig Wolf Run it seems. I like that it is super focused on the combo, but I have to ask why not run a single Stomping Ground in a normal Abzan Company list alongside the normal ~2 B/x sources. Drop the Slayers' Stronghold, and have a 2/2 split of Gavony Township and Kessig Wolf Run. This means you get the R splash, but can still play the arguably more powerful black sideboard cards. The only Black card the maindeck needs is a single Viscera Seer at this point in case you want to combo off one of those 2-3 ways. I feel there is a happy medium somewhere in there. Yes the mana is stretched, but it will give you access to better cards post-board.
I built the mana so I could run a few red cards main deck if flickerwisp didn't work out (and be prepared for red sideboard cards) -- grim lavamancer is the one that's high on my list to try since it provides a 9th 1-drop which we'd really like and I think it's pretty strong right now.
The only black sideboard card that I find particularly compelling is orzhov pontiff, and I'm not sure it's better than a cunning sparkmage. I miss Pharika some but we've got other options there.
So I've been round and round trying to decide if viscera seer and finks are worth it. Right now I think kitchen finks is worse than Renegade Rallier. The thing I prefer about rallier is that it is less vulnerable to the splash yard hate like scavenging ooze and grafdigger's cage -- we get to choose when we deploy it vs. kitchen finks the opponent chooses when to use their removal. Also, rallier enables the combo whereas Finks is its own combo.
Finks v. Druid
I was trying to clarify my feelings on Finks vs. Druid in a reddit post and I think I got close. The finks combo is so slow in comparison from a tempo perspective (costing 6 mana to cast each piece, or 5 mana minimum off coco 2 pieces and a seer) that you are incentivized to deploy your cards to the board. You want to cast your vizier so that you can cast finks next turn and combo.
In my build you are incentivized to play dorks and druids and value creatures and not expose your viziers, to sand bag your mirror entity until you have lethal, etc.
The finks deck is definitely stronger against midrange and some creature based decks because finks blocks a lot better, but it's much slower and will be far less reliable at assembling any combo through disruption.
My suspicion is that the more linear the meta the worse the kitchen finks combo (with a few exceptions, bushwhacker and burn maybe? Even bushwhacker zoo might be worse against my build because of the combo being faster, but I dunno. I've had them go over finks a few times)
Anyway I am really disinclined to maintain any 4-color manabases, even though I know it's popular I just find the variance is too high for me -- and the extreme punishment you get from blood moon effects. So I'll probably switch between straight Abzan and full on wolf run as the meta dictates.
At my particular shop Kitchen finks is worthless. The aggro decks are all critical mass decks that don't care about finks (merfolk, elves, allies) and there's a ton of big mana that does not care about infinite life. It's weird because my shop used to be burn central but is not much anymore -- though they tended to be heavily built against creature decks (FU SEARING BLAZE)
Hehehe glad to see I'm not the only one who saw the Druid+Vizier interaction. It's a shame Vizier of Remedies doesn't work well with Hapatra, Vizier of Poisons as way to generate an arbitrarily large army (or even as a less mana intensive alternative to Pharika). It is, however, a nice replacement for either Melira or Anafenza 2.0 (still creates infinite bolster triggers with Anafenza 2.0, and Melira is still a good utility card to have).
Not sure what the meta is like at my lgs yet since they've recently changed hands, but here's the list I'll be building towards.
Vizier of the Menagerie is questionable for me, but it seems like it would have good synergy with both the infinite scry and the infinite mana engines.
Unfortunately I do not have time for much testing but I think the new combo is very strong and perhaps this will make the deck reach to Tier 1 status. With the new infinite mana combo, I have a few questions:
1. Do you guys think that we should run more than 8 mana generators or just having 4 birds/heirarch and 4 devoted druids enough?
2. Would you retain the seer, finks and anafenza combo? Angel feeder combo?
3. Is abzan colors really necessary or just go to value town and play green white with Knight of the reliquary, tireless trackers, Courser of Kruphix, Voice of resurgence. This will benefit from less impactful creatures like seer and anafenza which does nothing on their own but still have the oops I win factor with infinite mana and duskwatch recruiter. Also this will also make the mana base more flexible and can fit in Ghost quarters for that Tron matchups. Something similar to Todd Stevens list that won 5th place at SCG Modern Open 3/11/17.
While the Naya combo deck posted does indeed seem potent and fast, it surrenders the entire second game-plan that defines Abzan Company, notably grinding out wins. Vulnerable to Linvala, RIP, Surgical Extraction, Cage, Scavenging Ooze, Orzhov Pontiff. I find the Druid combo potent enough in Abzan, and the Naya build feels win more in the combo dept.
I really like the Flickerwisp, because we have a Kiki Chord player here who hoses me with Linvala, and always holds up removal for Fiend Hunter. That extra half-turn can get the combo off and can deal with an occasional Phyrexian Revoker and Harsh Mentor as well.
The Abzan version is also vulnerable to Surgical Extraction, a Grixis player extracted all my Chords and Companies instead of Druid probably because he did not know the extent of the second combo. And here is an argument for those additional pieces (other than that Kitchen Finks may be a top 5 card in the modern meta right now). While I often too felt Seer was a pretty flat play, if you put down Seer, Anafenza, or Finks, you exhaust your opponents removal/extraction trying to handle/imagine every which way you have, puts them on their heels. I have had several opponents wonder/worry out loud if I had Angel/Feeder (I don't).
Biggest decks around here (and everywhere?) are Burn, Eldrazi, and DS. All 3 of these hate to see Finks and have potent answers in Anger of the Gods, Cage, Pithing Needle, Relic, Surgical Extraction, and mass removal and disruption in DS. Gavony Township is also threatening to all of these decks.
Did you just feel like the extra damage taken from Canopy wasn't relevant?
Were you, or have you, previously played the Archangel/Feeder combo? I'd assume you don't like it for the same reasons you don't like Ballista, but something about casting T3 archangel just from druid is appealing.
There seems to be a lot of list volatility for now, what do you consider to be the flex slots? Tracker/Skite/Ooze/2nd duskwatch/3rd E-wit?
Has they might need to dedicate anti artifact. But I digress.
It seems like Fiend Hunter has no upside over Fairgrounds Warden in this archetype. Hunter's mana cost isn't too easy and the cases when we want to exile our own creature are so rare. Besides that, I like to have that effect in my 75.
On the topic about the extra finisher, time will tell but I'm pretty sure those who don't want Ballista / Rhonas will change their mind when they'll start losing games and matches because of that extra turn left to the opponent. Blighted Agent, Ugin, Ad Nauseam, I mean a few top tier archetypes can swing the game very easily, and don't care about infinite life or bolster triggers.
I don't quite see why a counter-argument has to be made about Ballista or Rhonas, actually Anafenza isn't needed either, and decks will win with and without those cards. It's fine to say a list is solid and move on.
One thing about Fiend Hunter (vs. Warden), mostly when Viscera Seer is down but also against aggro, can Fiend your own creature, especially off of CoCo, to protect a combo piece until you have it, and then have a creature your opponent does not want to block or remove. I did this probably 3x last year, and 2x it was very relevent.
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Staff- 14th place not even playing the Druid + Vizier, but has Athreos?
- 19th place with this spicy monstrosity... I don't think you can even call it Abzan Company...
- 21st place which is lightly playing Druid + Vizier.
I like the third list the most, but feel that it is overall unfocused and trying too many things for game 1. It looks like it worked out for him though so all power to him. That's one of the strengths of the deck, being flexible.
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
Despite the cost I still like Fiend Hunter because of the ability to sac him while his etb trigger is on the stack to permanently exile an opposing creature.
I never thought of that
Modern: 0Affinity0 - GWBAbzan VizierBWG - RGoblinsR
Standard: URGiftUR
T1 literally anything
T2 devoted druid
T3 vizier OR chord for 2(3 lands+double tap druid) into win the game.
as opposed to needing the literal nut draw to do
turn 1 viscera seer
turn 2 anafenza/melira/vizier
turn 3 finks(have to have actual finks, cant chord for it turn 3 with these T1/2 plays
Cards are not money, investments, or a retirement fund, and should never have been treated as such.
Wizards made a mistake caving to speculators once, and we still pay for that mistake 19 years later.
Happy is the man who has broken the chains that hurt the mind and given up worrying once and for all. Be patient and tough. One day this pain will be useful to you.
I am starting from the 4 witness point because of this after seeing this play win a game against Tron -- t3 Coco hit witness and vizier untap with infinite mana, Coco into duskwatch and win.
Witness is just so much better at assembling this combo than the old one.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Anafenza is sick with Druid even without the combo.
I want 4 druids because 1) I feel like it is unequivocally our best turn 2 play in the vast majority of situations and I want that to happen as often as possible. A turn 3 kill is rare in Modern, and being able to untap with druid on T3 is a huge threat all on it's own, as opponents learn how to respond, this will become a bolt-or-potentially-lose-the-game situation. 2) Untapping at any point in the game with a druid in play is a huge threat. This has to be the scariest 0/2 in Modern right now.
After dropping Ana, Rallier, and Saffi from the deck, I'm adding them back because they're all very good for several reasons. Firstly, I no longer view Ana as a counter-engine. She is that, sure, but more importantly, she's an infinite-bolster wincon. This is important because it means she isn't competing with Vizier for slots, she deserves one of her own. The ability to make all your dudes unreasonably large is the primary reason to play her at this point, and that alone makes her worth a slot. Rallier and Saffi are back because I've been bumping into a lot of control decks lately and more recursion is welcome. My primary concern in control seems to be just getting guys on board that give me multiple cards worth of value. And there's also the super-cute Rally/Saffi/Seer combo for infinite scry, having Ana allows us to turn that into infinite bolster as well.
I'm not sure what the right number of EWit and Vizier is right now. A large part of what this deck brings to the table is a value beatdown plan, and a 2/1 for 2 seems to die to a LOT of stuff right now. The same thing goes for the 3rd EWit but that card is obviously better in grindy MUs. The power of T3 goes way up when you add density to these slots, but our grinding value goes down significantly as well, and as I said, as opponents figure out how the new combo works, Druid on T2 is going to get a huge bulls-eye on its back. Right now, I'm on 3/3, but I'm far from sure that is where I want to be.
I had a decent discussion with a guy (and fellow AbzCo player) at my LGS about Walking Ballista in the deck and while he made some convincing arguments for why it is completely unnecessary to combo-win when you have infinite bolster available and can stack your deck and CoCo/Chord for whatever you want, so waiting a turn to actually kill your opponent isn't a concern at all, I still like it's ability to notably combo-win without touching the GY and do a bad Redcap impression when played for value. You don't get the recursion in the face of removal, but you still get to ping enemy creatures at will. Right now I am still running it, but I don't feel hugely committed to the card. It's good, but not necessary.
I guess that's it for now. I'm currently stuck at 61 cards, and need to find a slot to shave.
1x Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
4x Birds of Paradise
4x Devoted Druid
2x Duskwatch Recruiter
3x Eternal Witness
1x Fiend Hunter
4x Kitchen Finks
1x Noble Hierarch
1x Renegade Rallier
1x Saffi Eriksdotter
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Tireless Tracker
2x Viscera Seer
3x Vizier of Remedies
1x Walking Ballista
2x Forest
2x Gavony Township
1x Godless Shrine
2x Horizon Canopy
2x Marsh Flats
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Plains
1x Swamp
2x Temple Garden
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Windswept Heath
Instant (8)
4x Chord of Calling
4x Collected Company
1x Ethersworn Canonist
1x Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
1x Linvala, Keeper of Silence
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Magus of the Moon
1x Orzhov Pontiff
3x Path to Exile
1x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Reveillark
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Selfless Spirit
1x Kataki, War's Wage
I ended up shaving the 2nd Noble and am trying out the crazy idea of running a Magus in the side, but I had an opponent immediately target him last night so that feels good for now. Everything else is at least semi-standard. Also thinking of going back up to 3 Gavony Township by swapping out the 2nd Marsh Flats, haven't pulled the trigger yet though.
I did miss having Rhonas a couple times, but it never cost me a game (just a few turn 4 kills became turn 5).
My opinion at this point is cautious optimism that the Naya build is good. It has a lot going for it, including excellent sideboard cards and decent big mana matchups. Having extra combo pieces in the land slot is insanity.
List for ref: https://deckbox.org/sets/1686911
I really, really liked having all 8 dorks. I think I curved dork into 3-drop in over half my games and the druids really taxed removal spells so that dorks generally survived, and when they didn't it was good for me.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
T1: birds of paradise / noble heirarch
T2: devoted Druid
T3: Vizier of remedies
The combination of Druid and Vizier means that you can achieve infinite green mana. This can be utilised with cards such as duskwatch recruiter so that you can draw and play (virtually) your entire deck of creatures. If you have rhonas the indomitable you can use the mana to pump one of your dudes and attack (likely to be your turn 1 drop or Druid as vizier and all the creatures you played on turn 3 will have summoning sickness).
Or, you use chord of calling to tutor up aOr, you use Duskwatch to filter your library until you draw walking ballista, which with infinite mana can deal infinite damage to your opponent.Hopefully that clarifies it. Obviously if anyone else is achieving it in a different way feel free to correct me
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StaffThis is one of the reasons Walking Ballista isn't optimal. It just dies off of a Chord or Company. It can also be countered and stuff, where as if the opponent counters your Chord of Calling it doesn't get rid of your win-con (assuming you are out of Eternal Witnesses).
MTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
T1 fetch tapped stomping ground
t2 land, fetch temple garden, druid
T3 tap druid + garden for vizier, play kessig wolf run, kill with stomping ground + infinite green
T1 fetch temple garden birds
t2 land, druid, hierarch
t3 chord for vizier, chord for recruiter, duskwatch scry mirror entity to the top and cast coco
(there were many lines here but I felt like it was a good time to practice explaining infinite duskwatch scry to set up cocos -- could have also just grabbed a witness and got chord. This hand was also insanely perfect with perfect topdecks so not that common)
t1 horizon canopy, birds
t2 untapped temple garden, birds, druid
t3 slayers' stronghold, cast vizier, cast mirror entity, swing for lethal with birds (over blockers)
(remembered another one v. affinity:)
t1 fetch shock birds, bird dies to galvanic blast
t2 land druid
t3 vizier, play wolf run, kill with druid
But there have been several more just ones I remember most of the plays for. By far most awkward thing about sequencing t3 kills is ensuring colors for a second white creature or a wolf run activation. This is one of the things that has me leaning toward playing a Rhonas in addition to (or instead of) mirror entity since it makes colors easier when killing, but Mirror entity has just enabled too many non-combo kills.
Also if you want to t3 kill play 4 witnesses. It'll seriously up your likelihood as sometimes you have to chord for your combo piece and having a witness in hand makes that graveyard chord a kill shot (as if you had another chord).
T4 kills are vastly more consistent since a t3 coco has pretty high reliability of assembling the combo.
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
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StaffMTGO/MTGA: Tyclone
My Primers ~ GWx Vizier Company ~ Knightfall ~ RG Eldrazi ~ Green's Sun's Zenith
More Brews ~ Modern Four Horsemen ~ Gitrog Dredge
I definitely am with you in some respects. But by the same token Coco is what makes us so blazing fast and consistent that we can beat Scapeshift and Tron.
I don't honestly miss the discard at this point. I think modern at this point is loaded full of decks that are strong against discard, and we're better served playing anti-hate-hate (such as selfless spirit, forge tender, rec sage, etc.). I never really cared for Pulse/Decay.
The trade we make of not being as good against spell based combo is the ability to race them. And we can still play Eidolon and canonist.
I built the mana so I could run a few red cards main deck if flickerwisp didn't work out (and be prepared for red sideboard cards) -- grim lavamancer is the one that's high on my list to try since it provides a 9th 1-drop which we'd really like and I think it's pretty strong right now.
The only black sideboard card that I find particularly compelling is orzhov pontiff, and I'm not sure it's better than a cunning sparkmage. I miss Pharika some but we've got other options there.
So I've been round and round trying to decide if viscera seer and finks are worth it. Right now I think kitchen finks is worse than Renegade Rallier. The thing I prefer about rallier is that it is less vulnerable to the splash yard hate like scavenging ooze and grafdigger's cage -- we get to choose when we deploy it vs. kitchen finks the opponent chooses when to use their removal. Also, rallier enables the combo whereas Finks is its own combo.
Finks v. Druid
I was trying to clarify my feelings on Finks vs. Druid in a reddit post and I think I got close. The finks combo is so slow in comparison from a tempo perspective (costing 6 mana to cast each piece, or 5 mana minimum off coco 2 pieces and a seer) that you are incentivized to deploy your cards to the board. You want to cast your vizier so that you can cast finks next turn and combo.
In my build you are incentivized to play dorks and druids and value creatures and not expose your viziers, to sand bag your mirror entity until you have lethal, etc.
The finks deck is definitely stronger against midrange and some creature based decks because finks blocks a lot better, but it's much slower and will be far less reliable at assembling any combo through disruption.
My suspicion is that the more linear the meta the worse the kitchen finks combo (with a few exceptions, bushwhacker and burn maybe? Even bushwhacker zoo might be worse against my build because of the combo being faster, but I dunno. I've had them go over finks a few times)
Anyway I am really disinclined to maintain any 4-color manabases, even though I know it's popular I just find the variance is too high for me -- and the extreme punishment you get from blood moon effects. So I'll probably switch between straight Abzan and full on wolf run as the meta dictates.
At my particular shop Kitchen finks is worthless. The aggro decks are all critical mass decks that don't care about finks (merfolk, elves, allies) and there's a ton of big mana that does not care about infinite life. It's weird because my shop used to be burn central but is not much anymore -- though they tended to be heavily built against creature decks (FU SEARING BLAZE)
UW Ephara Hatebears [Primer], GB Gitrog Lands, BRU Inalla Combo-Control, URG Maelstrom Wanderer Landfall
Not sure what the meta is like at my lgs yet since they've recently changed hands, but here's the list I'll be building towards.
3 Noble Hierarch
2 Devoted Druid
3 Viscera Seer
2 Vizier of Remedies
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Anafenza, Kin-Tree Spirit
4 Kitchen Finks
1 Vizier of the Menagerie
2 Renegade Rallier
1 Saffi Eriksdotter
1 Eternal Witness
1 Spellskite
1 Flickerwisp
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Qasali Pridemage
4 Chord of Calling
4 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Marsh Flats
2 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Gavony Township
2 Horizon Canopy
Vizier of the Menagerie is questionable for me, but it seems like it would have good synergy with both the infinite scry and the infinite mana engines.
Avatar and Signature by XenoNinja via Heroes of the Plane Studios
1. Do you guys think that we should run more than 8 mana generators or just having 4 birds/heirarch and 4 devoted druids enough?
2. Would you retain the seer, finks and anafenza combo? Angel feeder combo?
3. Is abzan colors really necessary or just go to value town and play green white with Knight of the reliquary, tireless trackers, Courser of Kruphix, Voice of resurgence. This will benefit from less impactful creatures like seer and anafenza which does nothing on their own but still have the oops I win factor with infinite mana and duskwatch recruiter. Also this will also make the mana base more flexible and can fit in Ghost quarters for that Tron matchups. Something similar to Todd Stevens list that won 5th place at SCG Modern Open 3/11/17.
I really like the Flickerwisp, because we have a Kiki Chord player here who hoses me with Linvala, and always holds up removal for Fiend Hunter. That extra half-turn can get the combo off and can deal with an occasional Phyrexian Revoker and Harsh Mentor as well.
The Abzan version is also vulnerable to Surgical Extraction, a Grixis player extracted all my Chords and Companies instead of Druid probably because he did not know the extent of the second combo. And here is an argument for those additional pieces (other than that Kitchen Finks may be a top 5 card in the modern meta right now). While I often too felt Seer was a pretty flat play, if you put down Seer, Anafenza, or Finks, you exhaust your opponents removal/extraction trying to handle/imagine every which way you have, puts them on their heels. I have had several opponents wonder/worry out loud if I had Angel/Feeder (I don't).
Biggest decks around here (and everywhere?) are Burn, Eldrazi, and DS. All 3 of these hate to see Finks and have potent answers in Anger of the Gods, Cage, Pithing Needle, Relic, Surgical Extraction, and mass removal and disruption in DS. Gavony Township is also threatening to all of these decks.